Russia Invades Ukraine

 

In a speech Wednesday night, Russian President Vladimir Putin announced a “special military operation,” followed immediately by troops entering Ukraine and large explosions throughout the country.

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky confirmed the attack and declared martial law. Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba called it a “full-scale invasion,” adding, “Peaceful Ukrainian cities are under strikes. This is a war of aggression. Ukraine will defend itself and will win. The world can and must stop Putin. The time to act is now.”

Putin strenuously warned against international meddling. “To anyone who would consider interfering from the outside: if you do, you will face consequences greater than any you have faced in history,” he said. “All relevant decisions have been taken.”

President Biden issued a statement: “The prayers of the entire world are with the people of Ukraine tonight as they suffer an unprovoked and unjustified attack by Russian military forces.” He added that he will consult with the leaders of the G7 on Thursday and promised “severe sanctions.”

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  1. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Stina (View Comment):
    Ukraine isn’t even a consistent supporter of their sovereignty. Who are they? Heritage Russians or the US’s puppets? Seems to be they can’t figure it out amongst themselves.

    What is your basis for saying that?

     

    • #211
  2. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Ekosj (View Comment):

    As a FYI …

    I would HIGHLY recommend setting aside some actual cash … greenback dollars. I can’t imagine that Putin will acquiesce to financial and economic sanctions without a response of some kind. It wouldn’t surprise me if banks, ATMs, e-payment processing systems suffered some “difficulties” or “outages” making your cards useless for some period of time.

     

    There are at this time long lines at the ATMs in Ukraine. 

    • #212
  3. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    genferei (View Comment):

    Genuine question: what is the mechanism by which sanctions on Russia generally will cause Putin to change his mind (or have his mind changed)? Are we expecting a revolt of the army? Uprisings in the street? It’s not like the senior Kremlin figures haven’t been comprehensively sanctioned already: how can their day-to-day lives be significantly degraded?

    Same question for Iraq and China…

    The problem is that sanctions on Putin’s henchmen in London, Miami, and Italy will cause pain for the people in London, Miami, and Italy who benefit from that Russian money. 

    • #213
  4. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    BDB (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    Not. My. Problem.

    Not. For. You. To. Decide.

    What a ridiculous line of disagreement. A hostile non sequitur. Nice.

    Is it the expression of the opinion that you find unacceptable? The possessing of the opinion? Should Mental just shut up in your world? Will there be no comments except from those who issue orders?

    Did Mental just claim to have issued orders that we will not strike Russia?

    I cannot see a logical interpretation of your response in the context of what Mental said. It just sounds like tiresome hostile garbage. Note that Mental’s use of the One. Word. Sentence. Device. is addressed to the world at large, whereas yours is directed straight at him. Nobody here needs to be put in his place or pointedly insulted with tone like that.

    Maybe this conversation gets better as it goes, but it’s off to a bad start by the second comment.

    I don’t often get my “tone police” on, but for some reason, this sort of assault micturation just gets to me.

    I said what I meant: Whether or not it’s our problem is not for us to decide.  Does it help when I write it that way?  It would be nice if we could decide things like that, but we can’t.

    • #214
  5. Django Member
    Django
    @Django

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

    Django (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

     

    These are all very Trumpian things to suggest, Gary.

    The election is over. The question is what to do now?

    You voted for the opposite of this foreign policy, Gary. This was what we were doing. You voted against it.

    Bryan, you remind me of the person who is grievously injured in a car accident, and instead of getting to the hospital, wants to argue that the accident was someone else’s fault.

    I repeat, what should we do now?

    With you, not let you forget you voted for Biden until you admit, without reservation or demand, that you were wrong to do so. Do that, and I’ll forgive you, but until then, I will hang everything Biden does around your unrepentant neck.

    What is funny here, Gary, is basically, you are making the same argument Clinton did “At this point, what does it matter?”

    It matters Gary. It matters.

    Let me see if I understand this correctly. Regardless of the issue, if I comment on anything, you will yell “But you voted for Biden!” Do I have that correctly?

    Not necessarily anything, but if you claim to believe or support something that you voted against, I’d call that fair game.

    That is your prerogative, but if the question is “what should we do now?” the charge that someone voted for Biden, Trump, or Gary Johnson makes little difference unless you have a magical time machine, and that person controlled some 35 electoral college votes. I doubt that you have such magical powers.

    I suggest that derailing a thread to vent your spleen is not a useful use of your time, and harms the Ricochet Community, especially if a post is on the Main Feed. Do you really think that attracting new members is served by denigrating current members?

    If venting his spleen keeps the … uh … people who voted for Slow Joe from even considering doing it again in 2024 when Trump is again Slow Joe’s opponent, the venting will have served its Noble Purpose.

    I will vote for any Republican (other than Trump or DJTJ) over any Democrat, and I will vote for damn near any Democrat over Trump or DJTJ. You might want to consider that when nominating a Republican in 2024. Most mules learn after being hit over the head with a 2X4.

    I guess you’d still vote for Biden over Trump. That tells me all I need to know about you. The CoC prevents me from saying more. Well, this: I’m not your friend, special or otherwise. 

    • #215
  6. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Django (View Comment):
    I guess you’d still vote for Biden over Trump. That tells me all I need to know about you. The CoC prevents me from saying more. Well, this: I’m not your friend, special or otherwise. 

    Wise of you.  Rushbabe got suspended for saying more.

    • #216
  7. Django Member
    Django
    @Django

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Django (View Comment):
    I guess you’d still vote for Biden over Trump. That tells me all I need to know about you. The CoC prevents me from saying more. Well, this: I’m not your friend, special or otherwise.

    Wise of you. Rushbabe got suspended for saying more.

    Getting suspended from what is turning into a dumpster fire doesn’t concern me, but there are such things as manners. 

    • #217
  8. lowtech redneck Coolidge
    lowtech redneck
    @lowtech redneck

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):

    I always wondered what it was like being alive in the late 1930s.

     

    Domestically, we’re already in the late 1920s/early 1930s.

    • #218
  9. lowtech redneck Coolidge
    lowtech redneck
    @lowtech redneck

    MWD B612 "Dawg" (View Comment):

    Ekosj (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Ekosj (View Comment):

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    Not. My. Problem.

    Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about people who, when witnessing violence on urban streets, walk on by or get out their phones and record video instead of helping?
    Is your response to that “Not. Their. Problem.” ?

    Or

    Is your response “What kind of people are they who won’t help?”

    Just curious to know.

     

    Not being willing to risk one’s life on the street is what, a horrible sin?

    Ekosj, what are you for, other than telling someone they are a bad person for not wanting to get involved?

    I’m trying to figure this out for myself. I really am asking a question. How does one square that circle?

    Most everyone here, when there is a post regarding that kind of behavior, is quick to say that not trying to help is a sign that we are a society in decline. How do we go from there to not-my-problem?

    I’ll take a stab at it:

    1. Do you know who is the good guy and who is the bad guy?
    2. Do you know if any of them are armed/not armed?
      1. Are YOU armed?
    3. Is someone at risk of grievous injury or death?
    4. Do you possess the skills needed to intervene successfully?
    5. Will others in the crowd support your efforts, or at least not hamper you?

    If the answers to all questions are yes, consider intervening. Otherwise call the cops.

    Sometimes the cops are made worthless or worse than worthless by political interference and top brass policies, i.e. the Kyle Rittenhouse situation.

    Of course, doing the right thing cost him dearly, and could have easily destroyed his life.

    • #219
  10. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    genferei (View Comment):

    Genuine question: what is the mechanism by which sanctions on Russia generally will cause Putin to change his mind (or have his mind changed)? Are we expecting a revolt of the army? Uprisings in the street? It’s not like the senior Kremlin figures haven’t been comprehensively sanctioned already: how can their day-to-day lives be significantly degraded?

    Same question for Iraq and China…

    The problem is that sanctions on Putin’s henchmen in London, Miami, and Italy will cause pain for the people in London, Miami, and Italy who benefit from that Russian money.

    And I forgot to mention that the most pained persons will be elites in London, Miami, and Italy. 

    • #220
  11. lowtech redneck Coolidge
    lowtech redneck
    @lowtech redneck

    genferei (View Comment):

    Genuine question: what is the mechanism by which sanctions on Russia generally will cause Putin to change his mind (or have his mind changed)? Are we expecting a revolt of the army? Uprisings in the street? It’s not like the senior Kremlin figures haven’t been comprehensively sanctioned already: how can their day-to-day lives be significantly degraded?

    Same question for Iraq and China…

    Sanctions are generally about crippling a state’s capacity to project power, not regime change.

    • #221
  12. lowtech redneck Coolidge
    lowtech redneck
    @lowtech redneck

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    BDB (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    There are no global police because there is no global authority. And heaven help us if there ever is one aside from the Lord God Almighty.

    The U.S. has been considered the defacto “Policeman of the World” for about 70 years now.

    How’s that working out for us? Or for the world, for that matter? IMHO, that is an outdated point of view. It’s not true anymore, and the world is finding that out. I’ve said for well over a decade now that (since the election of the Marxist Destroyer Obama), we are no longer capable of committing to do things because we are never more than an electon away from Marxist, reductionist rule at home. We should promise nobody anything, because we will not deliver.

    It has worked out pretty well for about 60 or 70 years and has kept the World relatively peaceful until yesterday. Of course it could all go downhill in the twinkling of an eye if the good guys decide to abdicate.

    We were not a house divided against itself at the time….we are no longer an ‘exceptional’ country, either in spirit (in the eyes of the Democrats) or in terms of relative power.

     

    • #222
  13. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    lowtech redneck (View Comment):

    MWD B612 "Dawg" (View Comment):

    Ekosj (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Ekosj (View Comment):

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    Not. My. Problem.

    Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about people who, when witnessing violence on urban streets, walk on by or get out their phones and record video instead of helping?
    Is your response to that “Not. Their. Problem.” ?

    Or

    Is your response “What kind of people are they who won’t help?”

    Just curious to know.

     

    Not being willing to risk one’s life on the street is what, a horrible sin?

    Ekosj, what are you for, other than telling someone they are a bad person for not wanting to get involved?

    I’m trying to figure this out for myself. I really am asking a question. How does one square that circle?

    Most everyone here, when there is a post regarding that kind of behavior, is quick to say that not trying to help is a sign that we are a society in decline. How do we go from there to not-my-problem?

    I’ll take a stab at it:

    1. Do you know who is the good guy and who is the bad guy?
    2. Do you know if any of them are armed/not armed?
      1. Are YOU armed?
    3. Is someone at risk of grievous injury or death?
    4. Do you possess the skills needed to intervene successfully?
    5. Will others in the crowd support your efforts, or at least not hamper you?

    If the answers to all questions are yes, consider intervening. Otherwise call the cops.

    Sometimes the cops are made worthless or worse than worthless by political interference and top brass policies, i.e. the Kyle Rittenhouse situation.

    Of course, doing the right thing cost him dearly, and could have easily destroyed his life.

    It kinda did destroy his life, even if he didn’t go to prison for it.

    • #223
  14. lowtech redneck Coolidge
    lowtech redneck
    @lowtech redneck

    kedavis (View Comment):

    lowtech redneck (View Comment):

    MWD B612 "Dawg" (View Comment):

    Ekosj (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Ekosj (View Comment):

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    Not. My. Problem.

    Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about people who, when witnessing violence on urban streets, walk on by or get out their phones and record video instead of helping?
    Is your response to that “Not. Their. Problem.” ?

    Or

    Is your response “What kind of people are they who won’t help?”

    Just curious to know.

     

    Not being willing to risk one’s life on the street is what, a horrible sin?

    Ekosj, what are you for, other than telling someone they are a bad person for not wanting to get involved?

    I’m trying to figure this out for myself. I really am asking a question. How does one square that circle?

    Most everyone here, when there is a post regarding that kind of behavior, is quick to say that not trying to help is a sign that we are a society in decline. How do we go from there to not-my-problem?

    I’ll take a stab at it:

    1. Do you know who is the good guy and who is the bad guy?
    2. Do you know if any of them are armed/not armed?
      1. Are YOU armed?
    3. Is someone at risk of grievous injury or death?
    4. Do you possess the skills needed to intervene successfully?
    5. Will others in the crowd support your efforts, or at least not hamper you?

    If the answers to all questions are yes, consider intervening. Otherwise call the cops.

    Sometimes the cops are made worthless or worse than worthless by political interference and top brass policies, i.e. the Kyle Rittenhouse situation.

    Of course, doing the right thing cost him dearly, and could have easily destroyed his life.

    It kinda did destroy his life, even if he didn’t go to prison for it.

    It destroyed any chance he had at a normal life, but he might be able to make it work for him, now.  Either way, its better than being railroaded into prison as a ‘mass-murderer’ by truly horrible people.  It all depends on whether Democrats and CINO judges are in charge of his civil actions.

    • #224
  15. Dotorimuk Coolidge
    Dotorimuk
    @Dotorimuk

    MiMac (View Comment):

    Kozak (View Comment):

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    No more countries admitted to NATO. Wasn’t that a really old agreement with Russia?

    After further research, I see that’s a highly contested statement by both sides as to whether an agreement existed.

    There was very definitely an agreement by “the west” to guarantee Ukraine’s borders in exchange for them giving up their soviet-era nukes.

    How’s that working out for them?

     

     

    Taiwan and South Korea should be working on their own nukes now.

    BTW- not just Taiwan & So Korea-if I were Japan I have the pieces conveniently lying around for a dozen nukes. Poles have got to be thinking about it as well. Add that to Iran (which Biden practically wants to gift a nuke) and the Saudis etc…

    Presidential election here in Korea on March 9, and they may well elect another China/N. Korean appeaser.

    • #225
  16. Dotorimuk Coolidge
    Dotorimuk
    @Dotorimuk

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

    Django (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

     

    These are all very Trumpian things to suggest, Gary.

    The election is over. The question is what to do now?

    You voted for the opposite of this foreign policy, Gary. This was what we were doing. You voted against it.

    Bryan, you remind me of the person who is grievously injured in a car accident, and instead of getting to the hospital, wants to argue that the accident was someone else’s fault.

    I repeat, what should we do now?

    With you, not let you forget you voted for Biden until you admit, without reservation or demand, that you were wrong to do so. Do that, and I’ll forgive you, but until then, I will hang everything Biden does around your unrepentant neck.

    What is funny here, Gary, is basically, you are making the same argument Clinton did “At this point, what does it matter?”

    It matters Gary. It matters.

    Let me see if I understand this correctly. Regardless of the issue, if I comment on anything, you will yell “But you voted for Biden!” Do I have that correctly?

    Not necessarily anything, but if you claim to believe or support something that you voted against, I’d call that fair game.

    That is your prerogative, but if the question is “what should we do now?” the charge that someone voted for Biden, Trump, or Gary Johnson makes little difference unless you have a magical time machine, and that person controlled some 35 electoral college votes. I doubt that you have such magical powers.

    I suggest that derailing a thread to vent your spleen is not a useful use of your time, and harms the Ricochet Community, especially if a post is on the Main Feed. Do you really think that attracting new members is served by denigrating current members?

    If venting his spleen keeps the … uh … people who voted for Slow Joe from even considering doing it again in 2024 when Trump is again Slow Joe’s opponent, the venting will have served its Noble Purpose.

    I will vote for any Republican (other than Trump or DJTJ) over any Democrat, and I will vote for damn near any Democrat over Trump or DJTJ. You might want to consider that when nominating a Republican in 2024. Most mules learn after being hit over the head with a 2X4.

    Sir, have you ever considered NOT voting, rather than voting, and giving your stamp of approval to an anti-American agenda?

    I don’t like Trump, but voted for him after taking a millisecond look at the history and agenda of the opposition.

    • #226
  17. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Dotorimuk (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

    Django (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

     

    These are all very Trumpian things to suggest, Gary.

    The election is over. The question is what to do now?

    You voted for the opposite of this foreign policy, Gary. This was what we were doing. You voted against it.

    Bryan, you remind me of the person who is grievously injured in a car accident, and instead of getting to the hospital, wants to argue that the accident was someone else’s fault.

    I repeat, what should we do now?

    With you, not let you forget you voted for Biden until you admit, without reservation or demand, that you were wrong to do so. Do that, and I’ll forgive you, but until then, I will hang everything Biden does around your unrepentant neck.

    What is funny here, Gary, is basically, you are making the same argument Clinton did “At this point, what does it matter?”

    It matters Gary. It matters.

    Let me see if I understand this correctly. Regardless of the issue, if I comment on anything, you will yell “But you voted for Biden!” Do I have that correctly?

    Not necessarily anything, but if you claim to believe or support something that you voted against, I’d call that fair game.

    That is your prerogative, but if the question is “what should we do now?” the charge that someone voted for Biden, Trump, or Gary Johnson makes little difference unless you have a magical time machine, and that person controlled some 35 electoral college votes. I doubt that you have such magical powers.

    I suggest that derailing a thread to vent your spleen is not a useful use of your time, and harms the Ricochet Community, especially if a post is on the Main Feed. Do you really think that attracting new members is served by denigrating current members?

    If venting his spleen keeps the … uh … people who voted for Slow Joe from even considering doing it again in 2024 when Trump is again Slow Joe’s opponent, the venting will have served its Noble Purpose.

    I will vote for any Republican (other than Trump or DJTJ) over any Democrat, and I will vote for damn near any Democrat over Trump or DJTJ. You might want to consider that when nominating a Republican in 2024. Most mules learn after being hit over the head with a 2X4.

    Sir, have you ever considered NOT voting, rather than voting, and giving your stamp of approval to an anti-American agenda?

    I don’t like Trump, but voted for him after taking a millisecond look at the history and agenda of the opposition.

    Ah, but you see, Gary has Principles.

    • #227
  18. Randy Weivoda Moderator
    Randy Weivoda
    @RandyWeivoda

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):
    Let me see if I understand this correctly.  Regardless of the issue, if I comment on anything, you will yell “But you voted for Biden!”  Do I have that correctly?  

    You do, Gary.  On a site with a some hundreds of regularly active members, a couple dozen find it absolutely intolerable that even one member apologetically voted against Donald J. Trump.  Short of ritual suicide, I don’t believe there is a thing you can do to get them to give up the grudge.

    • #228
  19. Randy Weivoda Moderator
    Randy Weivoda
    @RandyWeivoda

    Hang On (View Comment):
    There is a bill in the Senate to decrease Chinese tariffs and to make it so that tariffs can’t be raised on the Chicoms the way Trump raised them. It’s a bipartisan bill with lots of GOP senators rattling around in Chinese pockets. Thank you, Chamber of Commerce. Can we finally get serious?

    I haven’t heard a thing about this bill, but I don’t think any president should have the ability to enact tariffs.  This should be the job of Congress, not the Executive branch.  You may like having that much power in the hands of the president when it is your guy, but 50% of the time the president is a Democrat.

    • #229
  20. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Randy Weivoda (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):
    Let me see if I understand this correctly. Regardless of the issue, if I comment on anything, you will yell “But you voted for Biden!” Do I have that correctly?

    You do, Gary. On a site with a some hundreds of regularly active members, a couple dozen find it absolutely intolerable that even one member apologetically voted against Donald J. Trump. Short of ritual suicide, I don’t believe there is a thing you can do to get them to give up the grudge.

    Not really.  My impression is that most, if not all, would be at least mostly satisfied if he would admit – especially given the current situation, as well as what happened with Afghanistan etc – that it was a mistake.  And maybe promised not to do it again.

    • #230
  21. BDB Inactive
    BDB
    @BDB

    Randy Weivoda (View Comment):

    BDB (View Comment):

    Randy Weivoda (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    Europe is probably longing for Trump right now.

    Perhaps. But according to John Bolton’s memoir of his time as Trump’s National Security Advisor, Donald Trump was not a consistent supporter of Ukrainian sovereignty.

    Whereas Biden is their rock and their strength? I agree with Seward.

    Not at all. You are reading words between the lines that are not there.

    Bit o’ pot and kettle here.  Steven Seward never made the claim you are rebutting.  I don’t care what Bolton said and neither does Europe.

    What is the point of bringing up Bolton’s quote?  “Not a consistent supporter,” is some incredibly weak tea for demonstrating that Trump is somehow not missed in Europe.  Sounds like an NT trying to shoehorn an irrelevant and mildly disconcerting fact into an unrelated conversation.  Even were Bolton’s quote an accurate and damning portrayal of a feckless, fickle Trump policy toward Europe — Ukraine just got eaten on Biden’s watch.  Gee I bet they miss Trump now.

    If there’s a better connection, I’m missing it.

    • #231
  22. Judge Mental Member
    Judge Mental
    @JudgeMental

    If I thought there was ever any chance whatsoever that this post wouldn’t turn into a [CoC], I might feel some responsibility for my initial comment, since it clearly set several people off.  It might have been more flippant than strictly necessary, but it’s a reflection of my deep disgust over where we are.

    Here’s the hard truth.  Putin is going to take as much of Ukraine as he wants.  And there is nothing that we or anyone else are prepared to do that will stop that.  The time to stop it was before it started, through what is, to be entirely honest, mostly bluffing that we will do something that he can’t recover from.  That’s why it didn’t happen while Trump was in office; because Putin couldn’t tell how far Trump might go.  Joe Biden presents no credible threat whatsoever, other than the danger of unleashing our strategic harrumph reserve.  Unfortunately, every time our bluff is shown to be hollow, it becomes less effective the next time.

    In the meantime, we are in no state to fight a war against a major power, and make no mistake, you can compare the Russian economy to Italy all you want, but when it comes to military, Russia is a major power.  And to stop them at this point would take a full scale invasion, which would take months to ramp up, by which time this will be over and Putin will be solidifying his positions, while reminding his troops of what their grandfathers did at Stalingrad.

    We, on the other hand, are looking at a crisis of confidence in every single institution of our society including, for the first time since Vietnam, the military.  A military that is led by people who are more concerned with intersectional politics and protecting the environment than they are with combat readiness.  The only positive thing that can be said about that leadership is that it’s slightly less incompetent than the civilian leadership; the only person in the country who is more of a blithering idiot than the president, is the vice-president.  It’s being a reported by a media that a majority of people in the country consider to be “the enemy of the people”, and with good reason.  There is no solid basis to believe anything that we are being told, whether by government or media.  It doesn’t mean everything they say is a lie, just that we have little way of knowing when it is.

    So, what are we doing here?  We’re going to implement “crippling sanctions”.  Again.  We’re going to halt their ability to obtain credit on the international market.  Well, zippedy-doo-dah.  Are you unaware that, unlike us, Russia is not deep in debt?  That they have large cash reserves, and a large and steady income stream from the very people implementing sanctions against them?  An income stream that is currently being inflated by this invasion?  If the sanctions become a problem for them, all they have to do is shut off the energy flow for a couple of days, and Europe will fold like a cheap suit.  You don’t think it’s a coincidence that this is happening in the middle of winter, do you?

    Not that Europe was going to do anything meaningful anyway.  Germany’s contribution to the war effort is to send 5000 helmets to the Ukranians.  If Europe thought this was as serious as the media does, why aren’t their armies marching towards Ukraine right now?

    Now, if they were talking about sending anti-tank and anti-helicopter weapons in sufficient quantity to destroy everything coming at them, I’d say great, I’m all for it.  But that’s not what they’re doing.  They’re sending troops and talking about established borders, and territorial integrity, and defending democracy.  Whenever they start talking about defending democracy the one thing you can be sure of is that they have no plan.  No plan to win, no plan on what constitutes victory, and you can be damn sure that they don’t have a plan to leave.

    Since there is nothing meaningful that we will do, why don’t we sit this one out and reflect on how we got here and what we can do to be less useless next time.  iWe made some suggestions, at least some of which are solid ideas.  Unfortunately, in the current environment there is absolutely no chance they will happen.  Letting Europe take the lead for once in their own defense might at least accomplish one thing; teach them that they can’t rely on us to do it for them.  Collectively, Europe has an economy that is bigger than ours and has half again as many people.  Why are we taking the lead?

    Finally, the analogy to walking down the street and seeing someone being assaulted is flawed on several levels, the most obvious of which is that the Ukraine is not on our street.  It’s on the other side of the world.  Once you expand the scope like that, there are a couple dozen other places you need to answer for.  Why aren’t we there?  I strongly suspect that the reason people are so hawkish on this is Putin being made out as the reincarnation of Hitler for five years, in order to attack Trump.  Do I think he’s a good guy?  Of course not, he’s a strongman dictator.  But those aren’t exactly uncommon, are they?

    Hence my comment.

    • #232
  23. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Judge Mental (View Comment):
    If I thought there was ever any chance whatsoever that this post wouldn’t turn into a [CoC], I might feel some responsibility for my initial comment, since it clearly set several people off.  It might have been more flippant than strictly necessary, but it’s a reflection of my deep disgust over where we are.

    I understood this and I 100% agree. 

    But, since we are not properly outraged and demanded we “do something” we are moral reprobates. 

     

    • #233
  24. BDB Inactive
    BDB
    @BDB

    The Reticulator (View Comment):
    I said what I meant: Whether or not it’s our problem is not for us to decide.  Does it help when I write it that way?  It would be nice if we could decide things like that, but we can’t.

    Thank you — since you asked, yes I think that’s better.

    As to your actual objection, I’d say it depends, perhaps on what level of responsibiity is being claimed or shirked.

    As you allude to, none of us are giving orders.  Yet each of us is entitled to a position.

    If your point is that fate and the machinations of others can gain a veto over our individual preferences, well I agree.  COVID is not my problem.  Oh yes it is, says the government.

    But if your point is that it’s worth clapping back upon expression of a view because the decisio is “above one’s paygrade” or similar, that’s different to me.  Sure, at some level we’re all just ants carrying beloved grains of sand across a digital blatherscape, but then all of Shakespeare is just a bunch people walking and talking.  We don’t holler at dissatisfied characters that their dissatisfaction is scripted, and they will do what the playwright darned well wrote, neither from the audience nor from on stage.  COVID is not my problem, and my rights to free expression, protest, even civil disobedience are more valuable because of the government’s paygrade-level tyranny, not less valuable.  Even if my wanking about it on a website doesn’t wry sheer change through force of will and meme magic.

    I appreciate your response, and wanted to flesh out my thoughts rather than pepper you with well whaddya mean by that questions.

    • #234
  25. BDB Inactive
    BDB
    @BDB

    kedavis (View Comment):

    lowtech redneck (View Comment):

    MWD B612 "Dawg" (View Comment):

    Ekosj (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Ekosj (View Comment):

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    Not. My. Problem.

    Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about people who, when witnessing violence on urban streets, walk on by or get out their phones and record video instead of helping?
    Is your response to that “Not. Their. Problem.” ?

    Or

    Is your response “What kind of people are they who won’t help?”

    Just curious to know.

     

    Not being willing to risk one’s life on the street is what, a horrible sin?

    Ekosj, what are you for, other than telling someone they are a bad person for not wanting to get involved?

    I’m trying to figure this out for myself. I really am asking a question. How does one square that circle?

    Most everyone here, when there is a post regarding that kind of behavior, is quick to say that not trying to help is a sign that we are a society in decline. How do we go from there to not-my-problem?

    I’ll take a stab at it:

    1. Do you know who is the good guy and who is the bad guy?
    2. Do you know if any of them are armed/not armed?
      1. Are YOU armed?
    3. Is someone at risk of grievous injury or death?
    4. Do you possess the skills needed to intervene successfully?
    5. Will others in the crowd support your efforts, or at least not hamper you?

    If the answers to all questions are yes, consider intervening. Otherwise call the cops.

    Sometimes the cops are made worthless or worse than worthless by political interference and top brass policies, i.e. the Kyle Rittenhouse situation.

    Of course, doing the right thing cost him dearly, and could have easily destroyed his life.

    It kinda did destroy his life, even if he didn’t go to prison for it.

    Well certainly changed.  Destroyed as in transmuted, sure.  “As he knew it” and all that.  But whose life doesn’t get replaced with a new one, for better or for worse (sometimes both!) between the late teens and early twenties?

    I think this has worked out quite well for Saint Kyle — for which I am grateful and hope that it continues — and it could very nearly have gone horribly wrong in two different ways.

    He will always need to be vigilant.  If brushfire violence comes (“unrest” as the US sags toward potential collapse), he will definitely be a target.  So is everybody who accomplishes a great victory against a determined foe.  <– note non-judgemental language.

    • #235
  26. Miffed White Male Member
    Miffed White Male
    @MiffedWhiteMale

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    genferei (View Comment):

    Genuine question: what is the mechanism by which sanctions on Russia generally will cause Putin to change his mind (or have his mind changed)? Are we expecting a revolt of the army? Uprisings in the street? It’s not like the senior Kremlin figures haven’t been comprehensively sanctioned already: how can their day-to-day lives be significantly degraded?

    Same question for Iraq and China…

    The problem is that sanctions on Putin’s henchmen in London, Miami, and Italy will cause pain for the people in London, Miami, and Italy who benefit from that Russian money.

    Boo [redacted] hoo.

     

    • #236
  27. Hang On Member
    Hang On
    @HangOn

    Randy Weivoda (View Comment):

    Hang On (View Comment):
    There is a bill in the Senate to decrease Chinese tariffs and to make it so that tariffs can’t be raised on the Chicoms the way Trump raised them. It’s a bipartisan bill with lots of GOP senators rattling around in Chinese pockets. Thank you, Chamber of Commerce. Can we finally get serious?

    I haven’t heard a thing about this bill, but I don’t think any president should have the ability to enact tariffs. This should be the job of Congress, not the Executive branch. You may like having that much power in the hands of the president when it is your guy, but 50% of the time the president is a Democrat.

    I don’t like having congressional leadership that are bought and paid for by China and a business community bought and paid for by China. You are defending corruption and calling it principle. The only principle you are defending is corruption.

    • #237
  28. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    Judge Mental (View Comment):
    That’s why it didn’t happen while Trump was in office; because Putin couldn’t tell how far Trump might go.  Joe Biden presents no credible threat whatsoever, other than the danger of unleashing our strategic harrumph reserve. 

    Yes, precisely. No credible threat.

    One of the features of Trump was his unpredictability (except we knew he was on our side (the American side) of every issue). This worked especially well in international politics as, I suspect, it does in international business and something he learned to great effect along the way.

    It was always going to be a problem with Biden since he was elected (allegedly) for that precise reason — a return to “normal.” Predictability. Not only was his fecklessness predictable, it was predicted — and a reason to vote for him for some foolish people. 

    I think we need to bring back that saying about Trump — people should take him seriously, but not literally and adjust it for Biden (progressives, Democrats, the Left. . .) — people should take him literally, but not seriously. These are not serious people.

    Include the Germans and most Europeans in that. I still can’t get over the Germans shutting down their nuclear plants! Nuclear!?! Which emits zero CO2?? WTH? It doesn’t make sense even from a greenie perspective, unless the point was to induce energy poverty and greater reliance on the Russian thugs. 

    • #238
  29. Stina Member
    Stina
    @CM

    Randy Weivoda (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):
    Let me see if I understand this correctly. Regardless of the issue, if I comment on anything, you will yell “But you voted for Biden!” Do I have that correctly?

    You do, Gary. On a site with a some hundreds of regularly active members, a couple dozen find it absolutely intolerable that even one member apologetically voted against Donald J. Trump. Short of ritual suicide, I don’t believe there is a thing you can do to get them to give up the grudge.

    He’s not apologetic. That’s kind of the problem.

    • #239
  30. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    Stina (View Comment):

    Randy Weivoda (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):
    Let me see if I understand this correctly. Regardless of the issue, if I comment on anything, you will yell “But you voted for Biden!” Do I have that correctly?

    You do, Gary. On a site with a some hundreds of regularly active members, a couple dozen find it absolutely intolerable that even one member apologetically voted against Donald J. Trump. Short of ritual suicide, I don’t believe there is a thing you can do to get them to give up the grudge.

    He’s not apologetic. That’s kind of the problem.

    Yeah, that “apologetically voted against” was granting a bit (lot) too much. He didn’t just vote for Biden, he donated money to the cause and worked to get him elected. Hardly “apologetic” at all

    • #240
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