Russia Invades Ukraine

 

In a speech Wednesday night, Russian President Vladimir Putin announced a “special military operation,” followed immediately by troops entering Ukraine and large explosions throughout the country.

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky confirmed the attack and declared martial law. Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba called it a “full-scale invasion,” adding, “Peaceful Ukrainian cities are under strikes. This is a war of aggression. Ukraine will defend itself and will win. The world can and must stop Putin. The time to act is now.”

Putin strenuously warned against international meddling. “To anyone who would consider interfering from the outside: if you do, you will face consequences greater than any you have faced in history,” he said. “All relevant decisions have been taken.”

President Biden issued a statement: “The prayers of the entire world are with the people of Ukraine tonight as they suffer an unprovoked and unjustified attack by Russian military forces.” He added that he will consult with the leaders of the G7 on Thursday and promised “severe sanctions.”

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  1. BDB Inactive
    BDB
    @BDB

    Ekosj (View Comment):

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    Not. My. Problem.

    Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about people who, when witnessing violence on urban streets, walk on by or get out their phones and record video instead of helping?
    Is your response to that “Not. Their. Problem.” ?

    Or

    Is your response “What kind of people are they who won’t help?”

    Just curious to know.

     

    That’s a specious parallel.

    • #91
  2. MiMac Thatcher
    MiMac
    @MiMac

    Stina (View Comment):

    Viruscop (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    Viruscop (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    It is all very sad.

    Apparently, if I point out Putin seems to know what he is doing, I am pro Putin.

    So I can be on the side of angels, what am I supposed to Be for?

    No, but if you think that this is American’s fault, you are.

    I’m not saying that you believe that, but blaming America for this is accepting a pro-Russian narrative.

    Really? It’s Biden’s fault. I’m a traitor now! Come collect me.

    Is this Nato’s fault?

    NATO attempting to break an agreement, whether the agreement was rightly or wrongly decided, is going to cause international problems.

    That is what they did, right?

    If they wanted to break the agreement, maybe they should have done so while Russia was competing with the US for oil exports and forced the US into an agreement not to scale back on oil production.

    You never heard of the Budapest accords I guess…

     

    • #92
  3. BDB Inactive
    BDB
    @BDB

    Ekosj (View Comment):

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    Not. My. Problem.

    Not. For. You. To. Decide.

    Clearly. Because I would be sending troops to defend our border, not theirs.

    Is it a binary choice? Can’t we walk and chew gum at the same time?

    Which would you prioritize?  And why aren’t we doing that?  Note I’m giving you credit for getting the “our own border” answer correct.

    • #93
  4. Miffed White Male Member
    Miffed White Male
    @MiffedWhiteMale

    BDB (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    Not. My. Problem.

    Not. For. You. To. Decide.

    What a ridiculous line of disagreement. A hostile non sequitur. Nice.

    Is it the expression of the opinion that you find unacceptable? The possessing of the opinion? Should Mental just shut up in your world? Will there be no comments except from those who issue orders?

    Did Mental just claim to have issued orders that we will not strike Russia?

    I cannot see a logical interpretation of your response in the context of what Mental said. It just sounds like tiresome hostile garbage. Note that Mental’s use of the One. Word. Sentence. Device. is addressed to the world at large, whereas yours is directed straight at him. Nobody here needs to be put in his place or pointedly insulted with tone like that.

    Maybe this conversaton gets better as it goes, but it’s off to a bad start by the second comment.

    I don’t often get my “tone police” on, but for some reason, this sort of assault micturation just gets to me.

    I just see it as an alternative take on the aphorism -“You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you.”

     

     

    • #94
  5. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

    Kozak (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    Randy Weivoda (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    Europe is probably longing for Trump right now.

    Perhaps. But according to John Bolton’s memoir of his time as Trump’s National Security Advisor, Donald Trump was not a consistent supporter of Ukrainian sovereignty.

    Ukraine isn’t even a consistent supporter of their sovereignty. Who are they? Heritage Russians or the US’s puppets? Seems to be they can’t figure it out amongst themselves.

    They are a nation of 40 million people who have been able to keep their national identity despite 400 years of Tsarist oppression, followed by 75 years of Soviet oppression including a famine that caused millions of deaths. They have their own identity, language, culture, and just want to be left in peace.

    Kozak,

    What should we do? Cut Russia off from the banking system? Ramp up our own oil and gas for the world market? Supply non-lethal supplies like food and medicine to Ukraine? Supply lethal arms to Ukraine? I am asking, not advocating, as you are much closer to being an authority than me.

    Gary

    Hmm.

    These are all very Trumpian things to suggest, Gary. 

    • #95
  6. BDB Inactive
    BDB
    @BDB

    Dotorimuk (View Comment):

    If we get involved, we will lose and be humiliated yet again. We are no longer serious about winning wars anyway.

    This is what Niven calls the “gripping hand”.  A larger fact that makes lesser arguments moot.  Shal we or shall we not buy a bell to put about the cat’s neck?  Why bother?  Nobody’s going to actually do it.

    The most helpful thing our retarded and wicked country can do is to shut up and stay out.  Nothing we do will be in this country’s interest because our enemies run the country. 

    We are now coming to China’s rescue.  The admin just rolled back some “racist” Trump-imposed sanctions.  Laughable pretext, predictable bad results.  It’s intentional.

     

     

    • #96
  7. BDB Inactive
    BDB
    @BDB

    Keith Lowery (View Comment):

    Ekosj (View Comment):

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    Not. My. Problem.

    Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about people who, when witnessing violence on urban streets, walk on by or get out their phones and record video instead of helping?
    Is your response to that “Not. Their. Problem.” ?

    Or

    Is your response “What kind of people are they who won’t help?”

    Just curious to know.

    I “get” the question you’re raising, but what is the limiting principle on our obligation to intervene? Is it every single injustice in the world that we’re obligated to intervene over? Or just those that get a lot of media attention? Does geography count in terms of one’s obligation, or does mere cognitive awareness of some injustice in the world create a moral obligation to intervene?

    Also, are an individual’s moral considerations regarding intervening in an incident of urban violence equivalent to a nation’s obligations in the context of the geopolitical considerations about going to war?

    These are not rhetorical questions. I’m wrestling with some of these questions myself and wondering how others are thinking about it.

    Well, you’re not allowed to state an answer because  It. Is. “Not. For. You. To. Decide.”

    • #97
  8. BDB Inactive
    BDB
    @BDB

    iWe (View Comment):

    If the West does not crack down, hard, then watch for Iran to open fire on its neighbors and Israel, and China to start the invasion of Taiwan. They would be foolish to do otherwise. And they are not foolish.

    The US may not longer have a window – but as of right now, nothing in the response to Russia has done anything but encourage Russia and the other evil actors in the world to put their plans in motion.

    Those of you who think we can stay out of it, do not understand how evil thinks. An invasion of Taiwan and a Gulf/Middle-East war would be terrible, and might well go nuclear.

    iWe, this stuff is already baked in and there is precious little we can do. I said this in the wake of the Afghanistan collapse, and not because of that collapse, but because that’s just what’s going to happen with the cabal running this country.  Ukraine’s fate was likely sealed on January 6th.  Of course the manner of the Afghanistan debacle was an unforced error, but it was going to be nasty no matter what.  It would have been nice to see the nastiness *after we left*, but our domestic enemies in government have other priorities.

    Despite the fact that I would like to intervene NOWHERE, we are going to have to at some points.  I would call those Taiwan, Poland, and Israel.  It is flamingly against our interest to let any of those fall.  And yet Taiwan might still go down.

    Meanwhile, actually *bombing Russian pipelines to Europe* is reckless.  (So we’ll probably do it on that basis.)

    Hey “Mean Tweets” crowd — how do you like the first half of your administration? Stand by — it’s just getting started.

    • #98
  9. BDB Inactive
    BDB
    @BDB

    Concretevol (View Comment):

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    Not. My. Problem.

    Not. For. You. To. Decide.

    Clearly. Because I would be sending troops to defend our border, not theirs.

    1. We aren’t sending troops so defend their border so that doesn’t make sense.

    If we sent forces to “guarantee their territorial integrity”, that’s exactly what we’d be doing.

    1. There is no foreign military attacking our boarder so that still doesn’t make sense.

    Nobody needs a military to attack our border.  We are being invaded *without even needing* an army.

    1. Are you vying for a seat on Fox and Friends or maybe a show on OANN? lol

    Seems gratuitous.

     

    • #99
  10. BDB Inactive
    BDB
    @BDB

    Concretevol (View Comment):

    Dotorimuk (View Comment):

    If we get involved, we will lose and be humiliated yet again. We are no longer serious about winning wars anyway.

    We are already “involved’. That isn’t the same thing as rolling tanks so to speak.

    Sure, in the John Donne sense.  I’m pretty sure you would agree that he means sharply more involved, if we must get into the penny-ante accounting of what constitutes involvement.

    • #100
  11. BDB Inactive
    BDB
    @BDB

    Kozak (View Comment):
    Pray for Ukraine.

    Good news!  Biden said we’re all praying for Ukraine.  That oughta fix things.

    But thank you for the beautiful pictures.  I’m not a praying man, but I offer the closest I have. 

    There was a Ukrainian guy in an MMO I was in a decade ago.  Nice guy.  I’ve been trying to remember his name or handle.  The game is long offline, no help there.  I hope he’s doing well.  And millions of others.

    I know it may sound disingenuous to well-wish while argung against intervention.  It’s just that there’s no way we accomplish a goal worth seeking, and far too many opportunities (which I feel are unavoidable for this administration) to make things worse.  Worse for us, for Europe, and worse for Ukraine.

    • #101
  12. BDB Inactive
    BDB
    @BDB

    iWe (View Comment):

    Here is what the US could do right now:

    1: Ban all funds transfers to and from Russia, Russian banks, and Russian nationals. Close off SWIFT and Wires.

    2: Impose full Iranian/North Korean-style sanctions: bar all US companies and persons from doing any business with any Russian entities. Ban all flights. Ban all Russian nationals from the US, and push to have them banned with every friendly country.

    3: Announce opening all government land to drilling/fracking. Guarantee fast-track approvals (if we do not reject by Date X (like 60-90 days), then it is approved) for all mineral exploration and development in the US. Provide a window where the EPA has no authority, leaving only tort law to protect against damage done. Approve all pipelines on the same basis.

     

    But if we REALLY want to prevent war from spreading, we may need to be willing to escalate, and hit Russia where it hurts: their own pipelines for generating cash. Take out Gazprom’s pipelines, and Russia goes broke, fast. Europe will freeze, but Europe has been going down this path all with its own Earth-worshipping cognizance.

    I agree with your three points.  Not the fourth.

    • #102
  13. DrewInWisconsin, Oik Member
    DrewInWisconsin, Oik
    @DrewInWisconsin

    BDB (View Comment):
    Nothing we do will be in this country’s interest because our enemies run the country. 

    Sadly, this is true.

    • #103
  14. DrewInWisconsin, Oik Member
    DrewInWisconsin, Oik
    @DrewInWisconsin

    BDB (View Comment):

    Hey “Mean Tweets” crowd — how do you like the first half of your administration? Stand by — it’s just getting started.

    First half? It’s only been a year. We’ve got three quarters to go.

    • #104
  15. Steven Seward Member
    Steven Seward
    @StevenSeward

    Stina (View Comment):

    There are no global police because there is no global authority. And heaven help us if there ever is one aside from the Lord God Almighty.

    The U.S. has been considered the defacto “Policeman of the World” for about 70 years now.

    • #105
  16. DrewInWisconsin, Oik Member
    DrewInWisconsin, Oik
    @DrewInWisconsin

    Increase domestic oil and gas production. Do it yesterday.

    • #106
  17. Stina Member
    Stina
    @CM

    MiMac (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    Viruscop (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    Viruscop (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    It is all very sad.

    Apparently, if I point out Putin seems to know what he is doing, I am pro Putin.

    So I can be on the side of angels, what am I supposed to Be for?

    No, but if you think that this is American’s fault, you are.

    I’m not saying that you believe that, but blaming America for this is accepting a pro-Russian narrative.

    Really? It’s Biden’s fault. I’m a traitor now! Come collect me.

    Is this Nato’s fault?

    NATO attempting to break an agreement, whether the agreement was rightly or wrongly decided, is going to cause international problems.

    That is what they did, right?

    If they wanted to break the agreement, maybe they should have done so while Russia was competing with the US for oil exports and forced the US into an agreement not to scale back on oil production.

    You never heard of the Budapest accords I guess…

     

    I was 11, so you would guess right.

    • #107
  18. Gary Robbins Member
    Gary Robbins
    @GaryRobbins

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

    Kozak (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    Randy Weivoda (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    Europe is probably longing for Trump right now.

    Perhaps. But according to John Bolton’s memoir of his time as Trump’s National Security Advisor, Donald Trump was not a consistent supporter of Ukrainian sovereignty.

    Ukraine isn’t even a consistent supporter of their sovereignty. Who are they? Heritage Russians or the US’s puppets? Seems to be they can’t figure it out amongst themselves.

    They are a nation of 40 million people who have been able to keep their national identity despite 400 years of Tsarist oppression, followed by 75 years of Soviet oppression including a famine that caused millions of deaths. They have their own identity, language, culture, and just want to be left in peace.

    Kozak,

    What should we do? Cut Russia off from the banking system? Ramp up our own oil and gas for the world market? Supply non-lethal supplies like food and medicine to Ukraine? Supply lethal arms to Ukraine? I am asking, not advocating, as you are much closer to being an authority than me.

    Gary

    Hmm.

    These are all very Trumpian things to suggest, Gary.

    The election is over.  The question is what to do now?

    • #108
  19. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

    Kozak (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    Randy Weivoda (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    Europe is probably longing for Trump right now.

    Perhaps. But according to John Bolton’s memoir of his time as Trump’s National Security Advisor, Donald Trump was not a consistent supporter of Ukrainian sovereignty.

    Ukraine isn’t even a consistent supporter of their sovereignty. Who are they? Heritage Russians or the US’s puppets? Seems to be they can’t figure it out amongst themselves.

    They are a nation of 40 million people who have been able to keep their national identity despite 400 years of Tsarist oppression, followed by 75 years of Soviet oppression including a famine that caused millions of deaths. They have their own identity, language, culture, and just want to be left in peace.

    Kozak,

    What should we do? Cut Russia off from the banking system? Ramp up our own oil and gas for the world market? Supply non-lethal supplies like food and medicine to Ukraine? Supply lethal arms to Ukraine? I am asking, not advocating, as you are much closer to being an authority than me.

    Gary

    Hmm.

    These are all very Trumpian things to suggest, Gary.

    The election is over. The question is what to do now?

    You voted for the opposite of this foreign policy, Gary. This was what we were doing. You voted against it. 

    • #109
  20. BDB Inactive
    BDB
    @BDB

    Ekosj (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Ekosj (View Comment):

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    Not. My. Problem.

    Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about people who, when witnessing violence on urban streets, walk on by or get out their phones and record video instead of helping?
    Is your response to that “Not. Their. Problem.” ?

    Or

    Is your response “What kind of people are they who won’t help?”

    Just curious to know.

     

    Not being willing to risk one’s life on the street is what, a horrible sin?

    Ekosj, what are you for, other than telling someone they are a bad person for not wanting to get involved?

    I’m trying to figure this out for myself. I really am asking a question. How does one square that circle?

    Most everyone here, when there is a post regarding that kind of behavior, is quick to say that not trying to help is a sign that we are a society in decline. How do we go from there to not-my-problem?

    I think your basis is not strong enough to force a point.  A country is not a person.  I get that it’s an analogy — I just don’t think it’s close enough to carry your argument.

    And you know what?  Sometimes — it’s not my problem in the streets, either.  It’s good to intervene when you can for acceptable risk/reward.  You jump in a river to save a single child.  You stay on top of your house when the tsunami carries thousands away.

    • #110
  21. BDB Inactive
    BDB
    @BDB

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):

    MWD B612 "Dawg" (View Comment):

    Ekosj (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Ekosj (View Comment):

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    Not. My. Problem.

    Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about people who, when witnessing violence on urban streets, walk on by or get out their phones and record video instead of helping?
    Is your response to that “Not. Their. Problem.” ?

    Or

    Is your response “What kind of people are they who won’t help?”

    Just curious to know.

     

    Not being willing to risk one’s life on the street is what, a horrible sin?

    Ekosj, what are you for, other than telling someone they are a bad person for not wanting to get involved?

    I’m trying to figure this out for myself. I really am asking a question. How does one square that circle?

    Most everyone here, when there is a post regarding that kind of behavior, is quick to say that not trying to help is a sign that we are a society in decline. How do we go from there to not-my-problem?

    I’ll take a stab at it:

    1. Do you know who is the good guy and who is the bad guy?
    2. Do you know if any of them are armed/not armed?
      1. Are YOU armed?
    3. Is someone at risk of grievous injury or death?
    4. Do you possess the skills needed to intervene successfully?
    5. Will others in the crowd support your efforts, or at least not hamper you?

    If the answers to all questions are yes, consider intervening. Otherwise call the cops.

    So who exactly are “the cops” in this Russia/Ukraine situation?

    If there are no cops, does it change the answer?  Because there are no cops.

    • #111
  22. Stina Member
    Stina
    @CM

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    There are no global police because there is no global authority. And heaven help us if there ever is one aside from the Lord God Almighty.

    The U.S. has been considered the defacto “Policeman of the World” for about 70 years now.

    Self-styled. And has no legitimate authority.

    • #112
  23. Stina Member
    Stina
    @CM

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

    Kozak (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    Randy Weivoda (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    Europe is probably longing for Trump right now.

    Perhaps. But according to John Bolton’s memoir of his time as Trump’s National Security Advisor, Donald Trump was not a consistent supporter of Ukrainian sovereignty.

    Ukraine isn’t even a consistent supporter of their sovereignty. Who are they? Heritage Russians or the US’s puppets? Seems to be they can’t figure it out amongst themselves.

    They are a nation of 40 million people who have been able to keep their national identity despite 400 years of Tsarist oppression, followed by 75 years of Soviet oppression including a famine that caused millions of deaths. They have their own identity, language, culture, and just want to be left in peace.

    Kozak,

    What should we do? Cut Russia off from the banking system? Ramp up our own oil and gas for the world market? Supply non-lethal supplies like food and medicine to Ukraine? Supply lethal arms to Ukraine? I am asking, not advocating, as you are much closer to being an authority than me.

    Gary

    Hmm.

    These are all very Trumpian things to suggest, Gary.

    The election is over. The question is what to do now?

    Your political choices are disastrous. You would be better of admitting how absolutely wrong you are on EVERYTHING before going anywhere near a voting booth ever again.

    • #113
  24. Gary Robbins Member
    Gary Robbins
    @GaryRobbins

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

    Kozak (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    Randy Weivoda (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    Europe is probably longing for Trump right now.

    Perhaps. But according to John Bolton’s memoir of his time as Trump’s National Security Advisor, Donald Trump was not a consistent supporter of Ukrainian sovereignty.

    Ukraine isn’t even a consistent supporter of their sovereignty. Who are they? Heritage Russians or the US’s puppets? Seems to be they can’t figure it out amongst themselves.

    They are a nation of 40 million people who have been able to keep their national identity despite 400 years of Tsarist oppression, followed by 75 years of Soviet oppression including a famine that caused millions of deaths. They have their own identity, language, culture, and just want to be left in peace.

    Kozak,

    What should we do? Cut Russia off from the banking system? Ramp up our own oil and gas for the world market? Supply non-lethal supplies like food and medicine to Ukraine? Supply lethal arms to Ukraine? I am asking, not advocating, as you are much closer to being an authority than me.

    Gary

    Hmm.

    These are all very Trumpian things to suggest, Gary.

    The election is over. The question is what to do now?

    You voted for the opposite of this foreign policy, Gary. This was what we were doing. You voted against it.

    Bryan, you remind me of the person who is grievously injured in a car accident, and instead of getting to the hospital, wants to argue that the accident was someone else’s fault.  

    I repeat, what should we do now?

    • #114
  25. BDB Inactive
    BDB
    @BDB

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):

    MWD B612 "Dawg" (View Comment):

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):

    MWD B612 "Dawg" (View Comment):

    Ekosj (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Ekosj (View Comment):

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    Not. My. Problem.

    Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about people who, when witnessing violence on urban streets, walk on by or get out their phones and record video instead of helping?
    Is your response to that “Not. Their. Problem.” ?

    Or

    Is your response “What kind of people are they who won’t help?”

    Just curious to know.

     

    Not being willing to risk one’s life on the street is what, a horrible sin?

    Ekosj, what are you for, other than telling someone they are a bad person for not wanting to get involved?

    I’m trying to figure this out for myself. I really am asking a question. How does one square that circle?

    Most everyone here, when there is a post regarding that kind of behavior, is quick to say that not trying to help is a sign that we are a society in decline. How do we go from there to not-my-problem?

    I’ll take a stab at it:

    1. Do you know who is the good guy and who is the bad guy?
    2. Do you know if any of them are armed/not armed?
      1. Are YOU armed?
    3. Is someone at risk of grievous injury or death?
    4. Do you possess the skills needed to intervene successfully?
    5. Will others in the crowd support your efforts, or at least not hamper you?

    If the answers to all questions are yes, consider intervening. Otherwise call the cops.

    So who exactly are “the cops” in this Russia/Ukraine situation?

    You’ll have to ask Ekosj that. It’s his analogy; I’m just filling out the thought process I’d use if I came upon violence in the street, which was his question.

    No, you’re the one saying not to intervene in favor of calling someone else [the cops] to handle it. So who are you calling?

     

    Dawg is saying not to intervene if it’s pointless.  Not “because there are cops.”

    • #115
  26. BDB Inactive
    BDB
    @BDB

    Viruscop (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    It is all very sad.

    Apparently, if I point out Putin seems to know what he is doing, I am pro Putin.

    So I can be on the side of angels, what am I supposed to Be for?

    No, but if you think that this is American’s fault, you are.

    I’m not saying that you believe that, but blaming America for this is accepting a pro-Russian narrative.

    You voted for Biden, right?

    • #116
  27. Miffed White Male Member
    Miffed White Male
    @MiffedWhiteMale

    BDB (View Comment):

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):

    MWD B612 "Dawg" (View Comment):

    Ekosj (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Ekosj (View Comment):

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    Not. My. Problem.

    Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about people who, when witnessing violence on urban streets, walk on by or get out their phones and record video instead of helping?
    Is your response to that “Not. Their. Problem.” ?

    Or

    Is your response “What kind of people are they who won’t help?”

    Just curious to know.

     

    Not being willing to risk one’s life on the street is what, a horrible sin?

    Ekosj, what are you for, other than telling someone they are a bad person for not wanting to get involved?

    I’m trying to figure this out for myself. I really am asking a question. How does one square that circle?

    Most everyone here, when there is a post regarding that kind of behavior, is quick to say that not trying to help is a sign that we are a society in decline. How do we go from there to not-my-problem?

    I’ll take a stab at it:

    1. Do you know who is the good guy and who is the bad guy?
    2. Do you know if any of them are armed/not armed?
      1. Are YOU armed?
    3. Is someone at risk of grievous injury or death?
    4. Do you possess the skills needed to intervene successfully?
    5. Will others in the crowd support your efforts, or at least not hamper you?

    If the answers to all questions are yes, consider intervening. Otherwise call the cops.

    So who exactly are “the cops” in this Russia/Ukraine situation?

    If there are no cops, does it change the answer? Because there are no cops.

    First reasonable answer I’ve seen.  Thank you.

    Although it does raise the next question of what the alternative in the “if then else” construct above should be.

    • #117
  28. BDB Inactive
    BDB
    @BDB

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):

    MWD B612 "Dawg" (View Comment):

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):

    MWD B612 "Dawg" (View Comment):

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):

    MWD B612 "Dawg" (View Comment):

    Ekosj (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Ekosj (View Comment):

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    Not. My. Problem.

    Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about people who, when witnessing violence on urban streets, walk on by or get out their phones and record video instead of helping?
    Is your response to that “Not. Their. Problem.” ?

    Or

    Is your response “What kind of people are they who won’t help?”

    Just curious to know.

     

    Not being willing to risk one’s life on the street is what, a horrible sin?

    Ekosj, what are you for, other than telling someone they are a bad person for not wanting to get involved?

    I’m trying to figure this out for myself. I really am asking a question. How does one square that circle?

    Most everyone here, when there is a post regarding that kind of behavior, is quick to say that not trying to help is a sign that we are a society in decline. How do we go from there to not-my-problem?

    I’ll take a stab at it:

    1. Do you know who is the good guy and who is the bad guy?
    2. Do you know if any of them are armed/not armed?
      1. Are YOU armed?
    3. Is someone at risk of grievous injury or death?
    4. Do you possess the skills needed to intervene successfully?
    5. Will others in the crowd support your efforts, or at least not hamper you?

    If the answers to all questions are yes, consider intervening. Otherwise call the cops.

    So who exactly are “the cops” in this Russia/Ukraine situation?

    You’ll have to ask Ekosj that. It’s his analogy; I’m just filling out the thought process I’d use if I came upon violence in the street, which was his question.

    No, you’re the one saying not to intervene in favor of calling someone else [the cops] to handle it. So who are you calling?

     

    Sigh. I’m answering Eskoj’s query. I’ll even quote it for you:

    Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about people who, when witnessing violence on urban streets, walk on by or get out their phones and record video instead of helping?
    Is your response to that “Not. Their. Problem.” ?

    If one can’t identify who “the cops” when applying this analogy to an international conflict, perhaps it’s because the analogy isn’t a very good one. It’s also not my analogy.

    I’m not engaging further on this point.

    Can’t come up with a good answer, huh?

     

    Ummm…  https://ricochet.com/1138956/the-terrible-sea-lion/

    • #118
  29. Steven Seward Member
    Steven Seward
    @StevenSeward

    DrewInWisconsin, Oik (View Comment):

    She’s not wrong:

    Whatever you think our obligations to defend Ukraine at the moment, you must concede that the green movement in Western Europe and the United States made his actions possible.

    That’s a Dynamite article!

    • #119
  30. Terry Mott Member
    Terry Mott
    @TerryMott

    DrewInWisconsin, Oik (View Comment):

    Quietpi (View Comment):

    If I may be so bold as to comment on my own post, I fear some may misinterpret what I said about it not being “our” problem. We are the most significant kingpin in the free world, at least we were. We are hardly absolved of any responsibility or involvement if it isn’t just “us” who have the problem. Far from it. What’s happening right now is a HUGE problem to us. And with the ineffectual leadership – if you can call it that – that we have going on right now, it’s bound to get a LOT bigger. No, I don’t want to get into a shooting war with Russia. But if some things don’t change, that’s the direction we’re heading. NT’ers insist that Trump was going to get us into a war. No, but this president is driving us in that direction.

    I view much of this, “it’s not our problem,” “who cares what happens to Ukraine,” sentiment as America’s New Isolationism. People who know something of the history of the events between the wars I mentioned above, know full well how that era’s American isolationism contributed to WW II, and very nearly led to the destruction of the UK.

    Given the state of our country right now — specifically its leadership or lack thereof — isolationism might be the best path forward.

    That’s about where I stand on this, as well.  I could armchair-president some fantasy actions to address the crisis, but why bother?  I’m not qualified to do so, anyway.  Even if I was qualified and my ideas were both sound and adopted, I’m sure that the current administration would fail to successfully implement them.  They lack the patriotism, intelligence, wisdom, and backbone to deal with a problem of this magnitude.

    I also have serious doubts about our military readiness.  Paradoxically, the more prepared we are for war, the less likely we are to get pulled into one, and vice versa.  We’re in a vice versa world right now.  More’s the pity.  At least the military is well trained on diversity and preferred pronouns and can discuss the carbon footprint of an armored battalion.  I’m sure that has Putin quaking in his boots.

    • #120
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