Russia Invades Ukraine

 

In a speech Wednesday night, Russian President Vladimir Putin announced a “special military operation,” followed immediately by troops entering Ukraine and large explosions throughout the country.

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky confirmed the attack and declared martial law. Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba called it a “full-scale invasion,” adding, “Peaceful Ukrainian cities are under strikes. This is a war of aggression. Ukraine will defend itself and will win. The world can and must stop Putin. The time to act is now.”

Putin strenuously warned against international meddling. “To anyone who would consider interfering from the outside: if you do, you will face consequences greater than any you have faced in history,” he said. “All relevant decisions have been taken.”

President Biden issued a statement: “The prayers of the entire world are with the people of Ukraine tonight as they suffer an unprovoked and unjustified attack by Russian military forces.” He added that he will consult with the leaders of the G7 on Thursday and promised “severe sanctions.”

Published in General
Like this post? Want to comment? Join Ricochet’s community of conservatives and be part of the conversation. Join Ricochet for Free.

There are 270 comments.

Become a member to join the conversation. Or sign in if you're already a member.
  1. Stina Inactive
    Stina
    @CM

    Quietpi (View Comment):

    One look at a map of eastern Europe will answer the question. Even a moderate knowledge of WW I & WW II, and the Soviet Union will answer the question. Yeah, it’s “our problem,” and it’s a doozy. I’m sure that our president will propose a conference in historic Munich, to be hosted by our fine VP, to address the problem.

    But, please, people, really! You have taken your eye off the ball. Remember – at least we got rid of Trump!

    I don’t think WWI gives that impression.

    • #61
  2. Quietpi Member
    Quietpi
    @Quietpi

    Stina (View Comment):

    Quietpi (View Comment):

    One look at a map of eastern Europe will answer the question. Even a moderate knowledge of WW I & WW II, and the Soviet Union will answer the question. Yeah, it’s “our problem,” and it’s a doozy. I’m sure that our president will propose a conference in historic Munich, to be hosted by our fine VP, to address the problem.

    But, please, people, really! You have taken your eye off the ball. Remember – at least we got rid of Trump!

    I don’t think WWI gives that impression.

    I see the “two” WW’s as one, with two phases, decisions made after the first, leading to the second.  References here and elsewhere, to Chamberlain an Munich, are not hyperbole.

    BTW I made a small edit in my original post while you were typing.  Maybe check it out.

    • #62
  3. Miffed White Male Member
    Miffed White Male
    @MiffedWhiteMale

    Stina (View Comment):

    I’ll take a stab at it:

    1. Do you know who is the good guy and who is the bad guy?
    2. Do you know if any of them are armed/not armed?
      1. Are YOU armed?
    3. Is someone at risk of grievous injury or death?
    4. Do you possess the skills needed to intervene successfully?
    5. Will others in the crowd support your efforts, or at least not hamper you?

    If the answers to all questions are yes, consider intervening. Otherwise call the cops.

    So who exactly are “the cops” in this Russia/Ukraine situation?

    You’ll have to ask Ekosj that. It’s his analogy; I’m just filling out the thought process I’d use if I came upon violence in the street, which was his question.

    No, you’re the one saying not to intervene in favor of calling someone else [the cops] to handle it. So who are you calling?

    Sigh. I’m answering Eskoj’s query. I’ll even quote it for you:

    Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about people who, when witnessing violence on urban streets, walk on by or get out their phones and record video instead of helping?
    Is your response to that “Not. Their. Problem.” ?

    If one can’t identify who “the cops” when applying this analogy to an international conflict, perhaps it’s because the analogy isn’t a very good one. It’s also not my analogy.

    I’m not engaging further on this point.

    Can’t come up with a good answer, huh?

    You are attacking the wrong person.

    I’m not “attacking” anybody – I’m asking a sincere question and getting dodges.

    It’s been posited that in the event of witnessing an assault, the choices are do nothing, intervene directly, or “call the cops”.  I want to know who “the cops” are in this particular situation.  The US?  The UN?  Canada?  Zaire?

    I’m not trying to trap anybody – I honestly don’t know who the person that said  “call the cops” meant.

    • #63
  4. Viruscop Member
    Viruscop
    @Viruscop

    Stina (View Comment):

    Viruscop (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    Viruscop (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    It is all very sad.

    Apparently, if I point out Putin seems to know what he is doing, I am pro Putin.

    So I can be on the side of angels, what am I supposed to Be for?

    No, but if you think that this is American’s fault, you are.

    I’m not saying that you believe that, but blaming America for this is accepting a pro-Russian narrative.

    Really? It’s Biden’s fault. I’m a traitor now! Come collect me.

    Is this Nato’s fault?

    NATO attempting to break an agreement, whether the agreement was rightly or wrongly decided, is going to cause international problems.

    That is what they did, right?

    If they wanted to break the agreement, maybe they should have done so while Russia was competing with the US for oil exports and forced the US into an agreement not to scale back on oil production.

    What agreement are you talking about?

    • #64
  5. Tyrion Lannister Inactive
    Tyrion Lannister
    @TyrionLannister

    MWD B612 "Dawg" (View Comment):

    Ekosj (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Ekosj (View Comment):

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    Not. My. Problem.

    Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about people who, when witnessing violence on urban streets, walk on by or get out their phones and record video instead of helping?
    Is your response to that “Not. Their. Problem.” ?

    Or

    Is your response “What kind of people are they who won’t help?”

    Just curious to know.

    Not being willing to risk one’s life on the street is what, a horrible sin?

    Ekosj, what are you for, other than telling someone they are a bad person for not wanting to get involved?

    I’m trying to figure this out for myself. I really am asking a question. How does one square that circle?

    Most everyone here, when there is a post regarding that kind of behavior, is quick to say that not trying to help is a sign that we are a society in decline. How do we go from there to not-my-problem?

    I’ll take a stab at it:

    1. Do you know who is the good guy and who is the bad guy?
    2. Do you know if any of them are armed/not armed?
      1. Are YOU armed?
    3. Is someone at risk of grievous injury or death?
    4. Do you possess the skills needed to intervene successfully?
    5. Will others in the crowd support your efforts, or at least not hamper you?

    If the answers to all questions are yes, consider intervening. Otherwise call the cops.

    In this example, America  *is* the cops.  We know who the bad guy is, we are armed, Ukraine  is at risk of grievous death, we possess the skill to intervene more so than anyone on the planet, and the crowd will not intervene.  And, we’ve already gotten the 911 call.

    • #65
  6. Kozak Member
    Kozak
    @Kozak

    Stina (View Comment):

    Randy Weivoda (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    Europe is probably longing for Trump right now.

    Perhaps. But according to John Bolton’s memoir of his time as Trump’s National Security Advisor, Donald Trump was not a consistent supporter of Ukrainian sovereignty.

    Ukraine isn’t even a consistent supporter of their sovereignty. Who are they? Heritage Russians or the US’s puppets? Seems to be they can’t figure it out amongst themselves.

    They are a nation of 40 million people who have been able to keep their national identity despite 400 years of Tsarist oppression, followed by 75 years of Soviet oppression including a famine that caused millions of deaths.  They have their own identity, language, culture, and just want to be left in peace.

     

    • #66
  7. Kozak Member
    Kozak
    @Kozak

    Stina (View Comment):

    MiMac (View Comment):
    8 years of proxy wars with the Russians so far not would they be fighting right now.

    Proxy wars? And who fought those for them?

    And how involved is the US in those proxies and their “sovereign” decisions?

    They fought Russian proxies.    Putins “little Green Men” in Crimea and Donbas. 

    The Ukrainians have been doing their own fighting and dying.

    Maybe you should brush up on a topic before commenting, eh?

    • #67
  8. Ekosj Member
    Ekosj
    @Ekosj

    Stina (View Comment):

    Ekosj (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Ekosj (View Comment):

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    Not. My. Problem.

    Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about people who, when witnessing violence on urban streets, walk on by or get out their phones and record video instead of helping?
    Is your response to that “Not. Their. Problem.” ?

    Or

    Is your response “What kind of people are they who won’t help?”

    Just curious to know.

     

    Not being willing to risk one’s life on the street is what, a horrible sin?

    Ekosj, what are you for, other than telling someone they are a bad person for not wanting to get involved?

    I’m trying to figure this out for myself. I really am asking a question. How does one square that circle?

    Most everyone here, when there is a post regarding that kind of behavior, is quick to say that not trying to help is a sign that we are a society in decline. How do we go from there to not-my-problem?

    First, the social obligations of the individual are vastly different than the collective’s (which a country is a collective).

    While we think an individual should intervene if witnessing injustice, in whatever capacity they can, it is still the individual’s choice on how much risk is assumed on himself.

    The collective isn’t assuming risk on one individual. They are assuming risk on the entire collective. And the head of the collective makes the decision and the rest are more or less forced to go along.

    The presence of choice removed from the individual while risk is still assumed by the individual is what sets the collective intervention apart from the individual intervention.

    Interesting

    • #68
  9. Viruscop Member
    Viruscop
    @Viruscop

    Kozak (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    MiMac (View Comment):
    8 years of proxy wars with the Russians so far not would they be fighting right now.

    Proxy wars? And who fought those for them?

    And how involved is the US in those proxies and their “sovereign” decisions?

    They fought Russian proxies. Putins “little Green Men” in Crimea and Donbas.

    The Ukrainians have been doing their own fighting and dying.

    Maybe you should brush up on a topic before commenting, eh?

    When Candace Owens tweets this, is she advocating for US troops to fight Russian proxies in Canada? 

    • #69
  10. Stina Inactive
    Stina
    @CM

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):

    It’s been posited that in the event of witnessing an assault, the choices are do nothing, intervene directly, or “call the cops”.  I want to know who “the cops” are in this particular situation.  The US?  The UN?  Canada?  Zaire?

    I’m not trying to trap anybody – I honestly don’t know who the person that said  “call the cops” meant.

    The person who said call the cops was pointing out how an individual witnessing a crime is NOT THE SAME as a country getting involved in global conflicts.

    He’s saying the analogy doesn’t work. But the person who made the analogy wasn’t even responding. The “dodger” has no answer because it wasn’t HIS analogy.

    • #70
  11. Stina Inactive
    Stina
    @CM

    Viruscop (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    Viruscop (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    Viruscop (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    It is all very sad.

    Apparently, if I point out Putin seems to know what he is doing, I am pro Putin.

    So I can be on the side of angels, what am I supposed to Be for?

    No, but if you think that this is American’s fault, you are.

    I’m not saying that you believe that, but blaming America for this is accepting a pro-Russian narrative.

    Really? It’s Biden’s fault. I’m a traitor now! Come collect me.

    Is this Nato’s fault?

    NATO attempting to break an agreement, whether the agreement was rightly or wrongly decided, is going to cause international problems.

    That is what they did, right?

    If they wanted to break the agreement, maybe they should have done so while Russia was competing with the US for oil exports and forced the US into an agreement not to scale back on oil production.

    What agreement are you talking about?

    No more countries admitted to NATO. Wasn’t that a really old agreement with Russia?

    After further research, I see that’s a highly contested statement by both sides as to whether an agreement existed.

    Due to a lack of trust in my own government and western nations, I’ll settle with “I don’t know what the truth is.”

    • #71
  12. Quietpi Member
    Quietpi
    @Quietpi

    Quietpi (View Comment):

    One look at a map of eastern Europe will answer the question. Even a moderate knowledge of WW I & WW II, and the Soviet Union will answer the question. You may be right – maybe it isn’t “our problem.” It’s the entire free world’s problem, and it’s a doozy. I’m sure that our president will propose a conference in historic Munich, to be hosted by our fine VP, to address the problem.

    But, please, people, really! You have taken your eye off the ball. Remember – at least we got rid of Trump!

    If I may be so bold as to comment on my own post, I fear some may misinterpret what I said about it not being “our” problem.  We are the most significant kingpin in the free world, at least we were.  We are hardly absolved of any responsibility or involvement if it isn’t just “us” who have the problem.  Far from it.  What’s happening right now is a HUGE problem to us.  And with the ineffectual leadership – if you can call it that – that we have going on right now, it’s bound to get a LOT bigger.  No, I don’t want to get into a shooting war with Russia.  But if some things don’t change, that’s the direction we’re heading.  NT’ers insist that Trump was going to get us into a war.  No, but this president is driving us in that direction.  

    I view much of this, “it’s not our problem,” “who cares what happens to Ukraine,” sentiment as America’s New Isolationism.  People who know something of the history of the events between the wars I mentioned above, know full well how that era’s American isolationism contributed to WW II, and very nearly led to the destruction of the UK.  

    • #72
  13. Locke On Member
    Locke On
    @LockeOn

    iWe (View Comment):

    Here is what the US could do right now:

    1: Ban all funds transfers to and from Russia, Russian banks, and Russian nationals. Close off SWIFT and Wires.

    2: Impose full Iranian/North Korean-style sanctions: bar all US companies and persons from doing any business with any Russian entities. Ban all flights. Ban all Russian nationals from the US, and push to have them banned with every friendly country.

    3: Announce opening all government land to drilling/fracking. Guarantee fast-track approvals (if we do not reject by Date X (like 60-90 days), then it is approved) for all mineral exploration and development in the US. Provide a window where the EPA has no authority, leaving only tort law to protect against damage done. Approve all pipelines on the same basis.

     

    But if we REALLY want to prevent war from spreading, we may need to be willing to escalate, and hit Russia where it hurts: their own pipelines for generating cash. Take out Gazprom’s pipelines, and Russia goes broke, fast. Europe will freeze, but Europe has been going down this path all with its own Earth-worshipping cognizance.

    And IF we have rebuilt our war stocks, and IF Ukraine is in a situation to use them effectively, airlift large supplies of anti-armor and anti-aircraft weapons.  Russia is not in a position to replace destroyed front line armor and aircraft, at least if we choke off their energy income.  This has the strategic goal of reducing or eliminating the Russian threat to Poland and the Baltics.  It has the side effect of making Russia even more vulnerable to China, for better or worse.

    • #73
  14. Miffed White Male Member
    Miffed White Male
    @MiffedWhiteMale

    Stina (View Comment):

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):

    It’s been posited that in the event of witnessing an assault, the choices are do nothing, intervene directly, or “call the cops”. I want to know who “the cops” are in this particular situation. The US? The UN? Canada? Zaire?

    I’m not trying to trap anybody – I honestly don’t know who the person that said “call the cops” meant.

    The person who said call the cops was pointing out how an individual witnessing a crime is NOT THE SAME as a country getting involved in global conflicts.

    He’s saying the analogy doesn’t work. But the person who made the analogy wasn’t even responding. The “dodger” has no answer because it wasn’t HIS analogy.

    I’m not seeing “The analogy doesn’t work” in this response [below].   I’m seeing “these are the conditions where you intervene directly, otherwise call the cops”.  So I’ll ask again, who are “the cops”?

     

    I’ll take a stab at it:

    1. Do you know who is the good guy and who is the bad guy?
    2. Do you know if any of them are armed/not armed?
      1. Are YOU armed?
    3. Is someone at risk of grievous injury or death?
    4. Do you possess the skills needed to intervene successfully?
    5. Will others in the crowd support your efforts, or at least not hamper you?

    If the answers to all questions are yes, consider intervening. Otherwise call the cops.

    • #74
  15. Viruscop Member
    Viruscop
    @Viruscop

    Stina (View Comment):

    Viruscop (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    Viruscop (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    Viruscop (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    It is all very sad.

    Apparently, if I point out Putin seems to know what he is doing, I am pro Putin.

    So I can be on the side of angels, what am I supposed to Be for?

    No, but if you think that this is American’s fault, you are.

    I’m not saying that you believe that, but blaming America for this is accepting a pro-Russian narrative.

    Really? It’s Biden’s fault. I’m a traitor now! Come collect me.

    Is this Nato’s fault?

    NATO attempting to break an agreement, whether the agreement was rightly or wrongly decided, is going to cause international problems.

    That is what they did, right?

    If they wanted to break the agreement, maybe they should have done so while Russia was competing with the US for oil exports and forced the US into an agreement not to scale back on oil production.

    What agreement are you talking about?

    No more countries admitted to NATO. Wasn’t that a really old agreement with Russia?

    After further research, I see that’s a highly contested statement by both sides as to whether an agreement existed.

    Due to a lack of trust in my own government and western nations, I’ll settle with “I don’t know what the truth is.”

    The truth is never what the Russian government claims it to be. I remember reading, in this book, that during the Second Chechen War Russia claimed that the Chechen leaders were radical Islamists in league with Al-Qaeda. That was a lie, but the Bush administration was very stupid and believed anything that anyone said anywhere if it made Islam seem scarier.

    Remember Condoleeza Rice stating that when Putin called after 9/11, she knew that the Cold War was really over?

    She continues to be a moron, but that’s beside the point.

    • #75
  16. Stina Inactive
    Stina
    @CM

    Kozak (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    MiMac (View Comment):
    8 years of proxy wars with the Russians so far not would they be fighting right now.

    Proxy wars? And who fought those for them?

    And how involved is the US in those proxies and their “sovereign” decisions?

    They fought Russian proxies. Putins “little Green Men” in Crimea and Donbas.

    The Ukrainians have been doing their own fighting and dying.

    Maybe you should brush up on a topic before commenting, eh?

    Here’s some things I know:

    The US has a history of getting involved in covert manipulations in the politics of foreign countries. We have historically relied on our superior military might to protect us from any fall out.

    With the advent of Obama, our military strength was severely diminished, but our covert behaviors were not stymied. Then we “elected” the corrupted Biden and our military was even further weakened while even more dumb foreign policy was put in place.

    These stupid actions have consequences. Putin is a predictable menace. Our own inept foreign policy brought us to this mess.

    • #76
  17. Miffed White Male Member
    Miffed White Male
    @MiffedWhiteMale

    Stina (View Comment):

    No more countries admitted to NATO. Wasn’t that a really old agreement with Russia?

    After further research, I see that’s a highly contested statement by both sides as to whether an agreement existed.

    There was very definitely an agreement by “the west” to guarantee Ukraine’s borders in exchange for them giving up their soviet-era nukes.

    How’s that working out for them?

     

     

    • #77
  18. Stina Inactive
    Stina
    @CM

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):

    It’s been posited that in the event of witnessing an assault, the choices are do nothing, intervene directly, or “call the cops”. I want to know who “the cops” are in this particular situation. The US? The UN? Canada? Zaire?

    I’m not trying to trap anybody – I honestly don’t know who the person that said “call the cops” meant.

    The person who said call the cops was pointing out how an individual witnessing a crime is NOT THE SAME as a country getting involved in global conflicts.

    He’s saying the analogy doesn’t work. But the person who made the analogy wasn’t even responding. The “dodger” has no answer because it wasn’t HIS analogy.

    I’m not seeing “The analogy doesn’t work” in this response [below]. I’m seeing “these are the conditions where you intervene directly, otherwise call the cops”. So I’ll ask again, who are “the cops”?

     

    I’ll take a stab at it:

    1. Do you know who is the good guy and who is the bad guy?
    2. Do you know if any of them are armed/not armed?
      1. Are YOU armed?
    3. Is someone at risk of grievous injury or death?
    4. Do you possess the skills needed to intervene successfully?
    5. Will others in the crowd support your efforts, or at least not hamper you?

    If the answers to all questions are yes, consider intervening. Otherwise call the cops.

    Then you answer – who do YOU think are the cops?

    If your answer is the United States, then my response to you is how did we become the global authority and WHO invested us with it and how does our ASSUMPTION of it NOT lead to global hostility?

    • #78
  19. Hang On Member
    Hang On
    @HangOn

    Jon Gabriel, Ed.: President Biden issued a statement: “The prayers of the entire world are with the people of Ukraine tonight as they suffer an unprovoked and unjustified attack by Russian military forces.” He added that he will consult with the leaders of the G7 on Thursday and promised “severe sanctions.”

    Milquetoast. But not surprising.

    • #79
  20. Stina Inactive
    Stina
    @CM

    Viruscop (View Comment):
    The truth is never what the Russian government claims it to be.

    It seems to rarely be what we claim it is, as well.

    • #80
  21. Stina Inactive
    Stina
    @CM

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    No more countries admitted to NATO. Wasn’t that a really old agreement with Russia?

    After further research, I see that’s a highly contested statement by both sides as to whether an agreement existed.

    There was very definitely an agreement by “the west” to guarantee Ukraine’s borders in exchange for them giving up their soviet-era nukes.

    How’s that working out for them?

     

     

    Not well, which is one reason I’ve always found that policy kind of repugnant.

    And why I question just how sovereign Ukraine considered themselves.

    • #81
  22. Miffed White Male Member
    Miffed White Male
    @MiffedWhiteMale

    Hang On (View Comment):

    Jon Gabriel, Ed.: President Biden issued a statement: “The prayers of the entire world are with the people of Ukraine tonight as they suffer an unprovoked and unjustified attack by Russian military forces.” He added that he will consult with the leaders of the G7 on Thursday and promised “severe sanctions.”

    Milquetoast. But not surprising.

    Not exactly Churchillian, is it?

     

    • #82
  23. DrewInWisconsin, Oik Member
    DrewInWisconsin, Oik
    @DrewInWisconsin

    She’s not wrong:

    Whatever you think our obligations to defend Ukraine at the moment, you must concede that the green movement in Western Europe and the United States made his actions possible.

    • #83
  24. DrewInWisconsin, Oik Member
    DrewInWisconsin, Oik
    @DrewInWisconsin

    Quietpi (View Comment):

    If I may be so bold as to comment on my own post, I fear some may misinterpret what I said about it not being “our” problem.  We are the most significant kingpin in the free world, at least we were.  We are hardly absolved of any responsibility or involvement if it isn’t just “us” who have the problem.  Far from it.  What’s happening right now is a HUGE problem to us.  And with the ineffectual leadership – if you can call it that – that we have going on right now, it’s bound to get a LOT bigger.  No, I don’t want to get into a shooting war with Russia.  But if some things don’t change, that’s the direction we’re heading.  NT’ers insist that Trump was going to get us into a war.  No, but this president is driving us in that direction.  

    I view much of this, “it’s not our problem,” “who cares what happens to Ukraine,” sentiment as America’s New Isolationism.  People who know something of the history of the events between the wars I mentioned above, know full well how that era’s American isolationism contributed to WW II, and very nearly led to the destruction of the UK.  

    Given the state of our country right now — specifically its leadership or lack thereof — isolationism might be the best path forward.

    • #84
  25. Gary Robbins Member
    Gary Robbins
    @GaryRobbins

    Kozak (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    Randy Weivoda (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    Europe is probably longing for Trump right now.

    Perhaps. But according to John Bolton’s memoir of his time as Trump’s National Security Advisor, Donald Trump was not a consistent supporter of Ukrainian sovereignty.

    Ukraine isn’t even a consistent supporter of their sovereignty. Who are they? Heritage Russians or the US’s puppets? Seems to be they can’t figure it out amongst themselves.

    They are a nation of 40 million people who have been able to keep their national identity despite 400 years of Tsarist oppression, followed by 75 years of Soviet oppression including a famine that caused millions of deaths. They have their own identity, language, culture, and just want to be left in peace.

    Kozak,

    What should we do?  Cut Russia off from the banking system?  Ramp up our own oil and gas for the world market?  Supply non-lethal supplies like food and medicine to Ukraine?  Supply lethal arms to Ukraine?  I am asking, not advocating, as you are much closer to being an authority than me.

    Gary

    • #85
  26. Gary Robbins Member
    Gary Robbins
    @GaryRobbins

    Stina (View Comment):

    Viruscop (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    Viruscop (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    Viruscop (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    It is all very sad.

    Apparently, if I point out Putin seems to know what he is doing, I am pro Putin.

    So I can be on the side of angels, what am I supposed to Be for?

    No, but if you think that this is American’s fault, you are.

    I’m not saying that you believe that, but blaming America for this is accepting a pro-Russian narrative.

    Really? It’s Biden’s fault. I’m a traitor now! Come collect me.

    Is this Nato’s fault?

    NATO attempting to break an agreement, whether the agreement was rightly or wrongly decided, is going to cause international problems.

    That is what they did, right?

    If they wanted to break the agreement, maybe they should have done so while Russia was competing with the US for oil exports and forced the US into an agreement not to scale back on oil production.

    What agreement are you talking about?

    No more countries admitted to NATO. Wasn’t that a really old agreement with Russia?

    After further research, I see that’s a highly contested statement by both sides as to whether an agreement existed.

    Due to a lack of trust in my own government and western nations, I’ll settle with “I don’t know what the truth is.”

    After the Soviet Union dissolved, Ukraine was suddenly the third largest nuclear nation.  There was a four way agreement with the U.S., U.K., Russia and Ukraine that Ukraine’s nukes would be transferred to Russia, and guaranteeing Ukraine’s sovereignty.  What are our obligations under that agreement?

    • #86
  27. DrewInWisconsin, Oik Member
    DrewInWisconsin, Oik
    @DrewInWisconsin

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):
    Ramp up our own oil and gas for the world market?

    Yes. A return to Trump-era energy policies, under which we were the world’s chief exporter of oil and gas and Putin was losing.

    Biden’s policies enriched Putin by making Russia an energy powerhouse.

    • #87
  28. Richard O'Shea Coolidge
    Richard O'Shea
    @RichardOShea

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    Not. My. Problem.

    Neither was Poland in 1939.

    or France in 1940

    Until it was our problem.

    • #88
  29. BDB Inactive
    BDB
    @BDB

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    Not. My. Problem.

    Not. For. You. To. Decide.

    What a ridiculous line of disagreement.  A hostile non sequitur.  Nice.

    Is it the expression of the opinion that you find unacceptable?  The possessing of the opinion?  Should Mental just shut up in your world?  Will there be no comments except from those who issue orders?

    Did Mental just claim to have issued orders that we will not strike Russia?

    I cannot see a logical interpretation of your response in the context of what Mental said.  It just sounds like tiresome hostile garbage.  Note that Mental’s use of the One. Word. Sentence. Device. is addressed to the world at large, whereas yours is directed straight at him.  Nobody here needs to be put in his place or pointedly insulted with tone like that.

    Maybe this conversation gets better as it goes, but it’s off to a bad start by the second comment.

    I don’t often get my “tone police” on, but for some reason, this sort of assault micturation just gets to me.

    • #89
  30. BDB Inactive
    BDB
    @BDB

    Randy Weivoda (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    Europe is probably longing for Trump right now.

    Perhaps. But according to John Bolton’s memoir of his time as Trump’s National Security Advisor, Donald Trump was not a consistent supporter of Ukrainian sovereignty.

    Whereas Biden is their rock and their strength?  I agree with Seward.

    • #90
Become a member to join the conversation. Or sign in if you're already a member.