Free-Market Donald

 

Donald Trump was the most free-market-oriented president we’ve had since Ronald Reagan, and the economy showed it. Probably because of his rhetoric, many people don’t know about the Donald’s free-market proclivities. The people that don’t know about it seem to fall into two major categories:

  1. Ardent Trump supporters.
  2. Ardent Trump haters.

Protectionism prevents President Trump from being a free-market purist, but he was more marketed oriented than his four predecessors. Some, though not all, of that protectionism was justified for strategic and moral reasons.

It was the free-market side of his policies that made the economy roar. Rich, poor, corporations, workers, and people of all races benefitted. Not to mention all 37 genders. Of course, the Left will reverse it all in the name of Compassion.

It is heart-breaking to see Trump’s strongest supporters reject the free market.

Exhibit A is Tucker Carlson. Tucker has many virtues, particularly his Limbaugh-esque ability to highlight the Left’s absurdities.  Tucker is an asset to conservatism, but he’s out to lunch on economics. I’m grateful it was Trump, and not Tucker, managing economic policy during the Trump years. Another example is Pedro Gonzales, who writes for American Greatness. Mr.  Gonzales likes to blame all kinds of things on the free market, including the Texas power outages.

Many Republican Trump-haters see themselves as free-market supporters. Some are, but many supported Bush’s re-regulation of the economy and the bailouts he did at the end. They couldn’t distinguish between capitalism and crony capitalism.

And then there’s the oleaginous Mr. Romney … Where do I begin?

There will be many debates about what aspects of Trumpism we should keep. Willingness to fight back should be at the top of the list, and support for free markets should near the top.

Free market concepts might not get us elected, but their abandonment will get us un-elected. People respond to results, and screwing up the economy is always bad politics, especially for conservatives.

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  1. RufusRJones Member
    RufusRJones
    @RufusRJones

    Ed G. (View Comment):

    RufusRJones (View Comment):

    Ed G. (View Comment):
    If it’s a legitimate goal to be more self sufficient as a nation, especially if our chief economic rival is a large totalitarian state then how do we move in that direction? What policies can we enact to get us closer?

    Being self-sufficient is not a good objective. It’s obviously stupid to trade with China. The issue is, how does a country create more value added without trading with a mafia with an army.

    I disagree. Being self sufficient, from a national perspective, is the ideal. That’s not strictly possible, probably, at least not without a strong imperialist desire and capability. Even then, I don’t know. So what’s next best? Being as close to self sufficient as we can and not relying on foreign commitment to liberty, morality, and fairness to the greatest extent possible. How do we get there? Produce more and consume less. Save more and spend less. Invest more and borrow less.

    This would waste capital and retard human flourishing. This is why the dumbest illegal immigrant is better off here. The crappy countries they come from can’t get the most out of them.

    The problem is, all of the governments and financial systems are inflationist in an extremely deflationary world right now and it’s total upheaval to do what I want to do. Everything changed because of technology and the cold war going away. It also doesn’t help that people don’t want to procreate anymore.

    • #121
  2. Ed G. Member
    Ed G.
    @EdG

    RufusRJones (View Comment):

    Ed G. (View Comment):
    If it’s a legitimate goal to be more self sufficient as a nation, especially if our chief economic rival is a large totalitarian state then how do we move in that direction? What policies can we enact to get us closer?

    The objective is for everybody to be able to buy as much as they can with the output they create. Illegal immigrants move here because they get more for their output and their money goes further. I think that’s even setting aside all of the welfare stuff.

    Everybody who? Domestic citizens? All the nations of the world?

    My objective is to maximize my opportunities for a Good Life. That generally means what’s good generally is also good for me, and since life isn’t a la carte sometimes I have to go with a system that isn’t maximized for me in every particular but which produces a net positive. Prosperity is only one component of that, but I have to say that maximizing consumption probably doesn’t figure into my conception of prosperity except in the sense that balance maximizes both sides of the equation.

    • #122
  3. Ed G. Member
    Ed G.
    @EdG

    RufusRJones (View Comment):

    Ed G. (View Comment):

    RufusRJones (View Comment):

    Ed G. (View Comment):

    RufusRJones (View Comment):

    If you want to hear a pro inflationist argument, this is very good. https://investresolve.com/podcasts/mike-green-the-fourth-turning-and-reimagining-the-american-dream/

    Not sure if I’ll have time to listen, but I can’t imagine more inflationism being a good thing for us right now.

    He probably wouldn’t like my choice of words.

    I’ve listened to about a dozen of his interviews. His main thing is how to keep Geo political power and solve social problems. This comes from fractional reserve banking and intelligent central bank action basically. He’s also more comprehensively into the social side effects of those two things. I just worry everybody is too corrupt and stupid to do it.

    That’s the fatal flaw isn’t it? Corruption and stupidity is not in question.

    I’ve only done it once, but I think it’s really important to listen to the long interviews of Steve Bannon on front line.

    Just always remember, our system has not been set up for fair creative destruction since 1991 at least. Republicans that don’t recognize that are idiots.

    I have listened to it, but I wouldn’t mid going back for a refresher.

    • #123
  4. RufusRJones Member
    RufusRJones
    @RufusRJones

    Ed G. (View Comment):

    RufusRJones (View Comment):

    Ed G. (View Comment):
    If it’s a legitimate goal to be more self sufficient as a nation, especially if our chief economic rival is a large totalitarian state then how do we move in that direction? What policies can we enact to get us closer?

    The objective is for everybody to be able to buy as much as they can with the output they create. Illegal immigrants move here because they get more for their output and their money goes further. I think that’s even setting aside all of the welfare stuff.

    Everybody who? Domestic citizens? All the nations of the world?

    My objective is to maximize my opportunities for a Good Life. That generally means what’s good generally is also good for me, and since life isn’t a la carte sometimes I have to go with a system that isn’t maximized for me in every particular but which produces a net positive. Prosperity is only one component of that, but I have to say that maximizing consumption probably doesn’t figure into my conception of prosperity except in the sense that balance maximizes both sides of the equation.

    I mean everybody in the United States.

    • #124
  5. RufusRJones Member
    RufusRJones
    @RufusRJones

    Ed G. (View Comment):

    RufusRJones (View Comment):

    Ed G. (View Comment):
    If it’s a legitimate goal to be more self sufficient as a nation, especially if our chief economic rival is a large totalitarian state then how do we move in that direction? What policies can we enact to get us closer?

    The objective is for everybody to be able to buy as much as they can with the output they create. Illegal immigrants move here because they get more for their output and their money goes further. I think that’s even setting aside all of the welfare stuff.

    Everybody who? Domestic citizens? All the nations of the world?

    My objective is to maximize my opportunities for a Good Life. That generally means what’s good generally is also good for me, and since life isn’t a la carte sometimes I have to go with a system that isn’t maximized for me in every particular but which produces a net positive. Prosperity is only one component of that, but I have to say that maximizing consumption probably doesn’t figure into my conception of prosperity except in the sense that balance maximizes both sides of the equation.

    This is what that Mike Green interview gets at. He fully admits that it isn’t going to happen until after another financial crisis and you get intelligent people talking about it. 

    • #125
  6. Ed G. Member
    Ed G.
    @EdG

    RufusRJones (View Comment):

    Ed G. (View Comment):

    RufusRJones (View Comment):

    Ed G. (View Comment):
    If it’s a legitimate goal to be more self sufficient as a nation, especially if our chief economic rival is a large totalitarian state then how do we move in that direction? What policies can we enact to get us closer?

    Being self-sufficient is not a good objective. It’s obviously stupid to trade with China. The issue is, how does a country create more value added without trading with a mafia with an army.

    I disagree. Being self sufficient, from a national perspective, is the ideal. That’s not strictly possible, probably, at least not without a strong imperialist desire and capability. Even then, I don’t know. So what’s next best? Being as close to self sufficient as we can and not relying on foreign commitment to liberty, morality, and fairness to the greatest extent possible. How do we get there? Produce more and consume less. Save more and spend less. Invest more and borrow less.

    This would waste capital and retard human flourishing. This is why the dumbest illegal immigrant is better off here. The crappy countries they come from can’t get the most out of them.

    ….

    Which would reduce human flourishing and waste capital? Producing, saving, or investing?

    I don’t really care about the dumbest illegal immigrant and where he is better off, when push comes to shove. I care about me and my family, my neighbors, my city, my state, fellow citizens, only then is there room for the world. I don’t care if some guy in some other country is getting the most he can or giving the most he can.

    • #126
  7. RufusRJones Member
    RufusRJones
    @RufusRJones

    Ed G. (View Comment):

    RufusRJones (View Comment):

    Ed G. (View Comment):

    RufusRJones (View Comment):

    Ed G. (View Comment):
    If it’s a legitimate goal to be more self sufficient as a nation, especially if our chief economic rival is a large totalitarian state then how do we move in that direction? What policies can we enact to get us closer?

    Being self-sufficient is not a good objective. It’s obviously stupid to trade with China. The issue is, how does a country create more value added without trading with a mafia with an army.

    I disagree. Being self sufficient, from a national perspective, is the ideal. That’s not strictly possible, probably, at least not without a strong imperialist desire and capability. Even then, I don’t know. So what’s next best? Being as close to self sufficient as we can and not relying on foreign commitment to liberty, morality, and fairness to the greatest extent possible. How do we get there? Produce more and consume less. Save more and spend less. Invest more and borrow less.

    This would waste capital and retard human flourishing. This is why the dumbest illegal immigrant is better off here. The crappy countries they come from can’t get the most out of them.

    ….

    Which would reduce human flourishing and waste capital? Producing, saving, or investing?

    I don’t really care about the dumbest illegal immigrant and where he is better off, when push comes to shove. I care about me and my family, my neighbors, my city, my state, fellow citizens, only then is there room for the world. I don’t care if some guy in some other country is getting the most he can or giving the most he can.

    I’m just illustrating what is good about a more free economy. 

    Autarky is very hard to pull off. 

    I’m just saying it’s better to work with the deflation from automation and globalized trade. It would be better for everybody.  You are saying something else. 

    We really did hollow out many areas of the country because of stupid trade and monetary policy, so I think Steve Bannon is right about most of the stuff at this point. 30 years ago we had better options.

    • #127
  8. RufusRJones Member
    RufusRJones
    @RufusRJones

    Ed G. (View Comment):

    RufusRJones (View Comment):

    Ed G. (View Comment):

    RufusRJones (View Comment):

    Ed G. (View Comment):
    If it’s a legitimate goal to be more self sufficient as a nation, especially if our chief economic rival is a large totalitarian state then how do we move in that direction? What policies can we enact to get us closer?

    Being self-sufficient is not a good objective. It’s obviously stupid to trade with China. The issue is, how does a country create more value added without trading with a mafia with an army.

    I disagree. Being self sufficient, from a national perspective, is the ideal. That’s not strictly possible, probably, at least not without a strong imperialist desire and capability. Even then, I don’t know. So what’s next best? Being as close to self sufficient as we can and not relying on foreign commitment to liberty, morality, and fairness to the greatest extent possible. How do we get there? Produce more and consume less. Save more and spend less. Invest more and borrow less.

    This would waste capital and retard human flourishing. This is why the dumbest illegal immigrant is better off here. The crappy countries they come from can’t get the most out of them.

    ….

    Which would reduce human flourishing and waste capital? Producing, saving, or investing?

    I don’t really care about the dumbest illegal immigrant and where he is better off, when push comes to shove. I care about me and my family, my neighbors, my city, my state, fellow citizens, only then is there room for the world. I don’t care if some guy in some other country is getting the most he can or giving the most he can.

    Whatever Steve Bannon says, I am for. 

    • #128
  9. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Ed G. (View Comment):

    RufusRJones (View Comment):

    Ed G. (View Comment):
    If it’s a legitimate goal to be more self sufficient as a nation, especially if our chief economic rival is a large totalitarian state then how do we move in that direction? What policies can we enact to get us closer?

    Being self-sufficient is not a good objective. It’s obviously stupid to trade with China. The issue is, how does a country create more value added without trading with a mafia with an army.

    I disagree. Being self sufficient, from a national perspective, is the ideal. That’s not strictly possible, probably, at least not without a strong imperialist desire and capability. Even then, I don’t know. So what’s next best? Being as close to self sufficient as we can and not relying on foreign commitment to liberty, morality, and fairness to the greatest extent possible. How do we get there? Produce more and consume less. Save more and spend less. Invest more and borrow less.

    What happens to all that production if people are told to consume less?

    • #129
  10. Dbroussa Coolidge
    Dbroussa
    @Dbroussa

    Ed G. (View Comment):

     

    Agreed. The payroll tax regime is a much bigger problem than tarriffs. Why doesn’t anyone fight tooth and nail for removal of that? Even if we replace that tax revenue with some other tax I think “we” are still better off as we are not taxing employment and would be taxing consumption (probably) instead.

    Unintentionally I think that Free Trade has become a cult of consumption. Focus on consumption is just as unhealthy for a political entity just as much as it is for an individual. Consumption isn’t bad, but it isn’t the highest good let alone the only one.

    I like the idea of a consumption tax and the elimination of income and payroll taxes.  I’m not a fan of a VAT tax, but a one-time tax at the point of final purchase.  One could argue if secondary sales should be taxed or not, but if one eliminates income and payroll taxes, then anyone working gets a 15% raise (well, assuming that the employer gives them the money they are paying in payroll taxes), and if one gets rid of the FICA withholdings then people get even more in each paycheck.

    Consumption taxes can be regressive, but I think that the idea of forgiving each taxpayer from all consumption taxes for the $X (say up to the poverty line) would resolve that issue.

    • #130
  11. RufusRJones Member
    RufusRJones
    @RufusRJones

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Ed G. (View Comment):

    RufusRJones (View Comment):

    Ed G. (View Comment):
    If it’s a legitimate goal to be more self sufficient as a nation, especially if our chief economic rival is a large totalitarian state then how do we move in that direction? What policies can we enact to get us closer?

    Being self-sufficient is not a good objective. It’s obviously stupid to trade with China. The issue is, how does a country create more value added without trading with a mafia with an army.

    I disagree. Being self sufficient, from a national perspective, is the ideal. That’s not strictly possible, probably, at least not without a strong imperialist desire and capability. Even then, I don’t know. So what’s next best? Being as close to self sufficient as we can and not relying on foreign commitment to liberty, morality, and fairness to the greatest extent possible. How do we get there? Produce more and consume less. Save more and spend less. Invest more and borrow less.

    What happens to all that production if people are told to consume less?

    Production precedes consumption. Then you get more consumption in the future. If you have natural interest rates, no interference from the central bank, this takes care of itself. 

    Politically, this is very difficult to set up. Keynesianism.

    • #131
  12. RufusRJones Member
    RufusRJones
    @RufusRJones

    Dbroussa (View Comment):
    Consumption taxes can be regressive, but I think that the idea of forgiving each taxpayer from all consumption taxes for the $X (say up to the poverty line) would resolve that issue.

    I think the Austrians say that there is so much more output and prosperity this doesn’t even matter. 

    The income tax was a huge mistake. The corporate tax is even worse. 

    I’ve heard that the combination of discretionary central banking and the income tax is a disaster. 

    • #132
  13. Stina Member
    Stina
    @CM

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Ed G. (View Comment):

    RufusRJones (View Comment):

    Ed G. (View Comment):
    If it’s a legitimate goal to be more self sufficient as a nation, especially if our chief economic rival is a large totalitarian state then how do we move in that direction? What policies can we enact to get us closer?

    Being self-sufficient is not a good objective. It’s obviously stupid to trade with China. The issue is, how does a country create more value added without trading with a mafia with an army.

    I disagree. Being self sufficient, from a national perspective, is the ideal. That’s not strictly possible, probably, at least not without a strong imperialist desire and capability. Even then, I don’t know. So what’s next best? Being as close to self sufficient as we can and not relying on foreign commitment to liberty, morality, and fairness to the greatest extent possible. How do we get there? Produce more and consume less. Save more and spend less. Invest more and borrow less.

    What happens to all that production if people are told to consume less?

    I think it works it’s way out in the end. Exports increase consumers, as well.

    • #133
  14. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Stina (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Ed G. (View Comment):

    RufusRJones (View Comment):

    Ed G. (View Comment):
    If it’s a legitimate goal to be more self sufficient as a nation, especially if our chief economic rival is a large totalitarian state then how do we move in that direction? What policies can we enact to get us closer?

    Being self-sufficient is not a good objective. It’s obviously stupid to trade with China. The issue is, how does a country create more value added without trading with a mafia with an army.

    I disagree. Being self sufficient, from a national perspective, is the ideal. That’s not strictly possible, probably, at least not without a strong imperialist desire and capability. Even then, I don’t know. So what’s next best? Being as close to self sufficient as we can and not relying on foreign commitment to liberty, morality, and fairness to the greatest extent possible. How do we get there? Produce more and consume less. Save more and spend less. Invest more and borrow less.

    What happens to all that production if people are told to consume less?

    I think it works it’s way out in the end. Exports increase consumers, as well.

    But if other countries are smart like us, they’ll want their own production, not imports.

    This all seems to have the same problem as children:  if children grew up to be what they wanted to be as children, we’d all be firemen and ballerinas.  (or something.)

    • #134
  15. Ed G. Member
    Ed G.
    @EdG

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Ed G. (View Comment):

    RufusRJones (View Comment):

    Ed G. (View Comment):
    If it’s a legitimate goal to be more self sufficient as a nation, especially if our chief economic rival is a large totalitarian state then how do we move in that direction? What policies can we enact to get us closer?

    Being self-sufficient is not a good objective. It’s obviously stupid to trade with China. The issue is, how does a country create more value added without trading with a mafia with an army.

    I disagree. Being self sufficient, from a national perspective, is the ideal. That’s not strictly possible, probably, at least not without a strong imperialist desire and capability. Even then, I don’t know. So what’s next best? Being as close to self sufficient as we can and not relying on foreign commitment to liberty, morality, and fairness to the greatest extent possible. How do we get there? Produce more and consume less. Save more and spend less. Invest more and borrow less.

    What happens to all that production if people are told to consume less?

    I’m not telling anyone to consume less, and no one has to listen even if I did.

    What happens to all what production? I don’t know. Could be that foreign production drops significantly and domestic production increases slightly. Could be a million different combinations. Here’s what I think I do know, though. I know that I’d rather have an economic engine in my community than not. I know that cheap goods are not a long term substitute for an economic engine in my community. I know that services alone aren’t sufficient either.

    • #135
  16. Ed G. Member
    Ed G.
    @EdG

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Ed G. (View Comment):

    RufusRJones (View Comment):

    Ed G. (View Comment):
    If it’s a legitimate goal to be more self sufficient as a nation, especially if our chief economic rival is a large totalitarian state then how do we move in that direction? What policies can we enact to get us closer?

    Being self-sufficient is not a good objective. It’s obviously stupid to trade with China. The issue is, how does a country create more value added without trading with a mafia with an army.

    I disagree. Being self sufficient, from a national perspective, is the ideal. That’s not strictly possible, probably, at least not without a strong imperialist desire and capability. Even then, I don’t know. So what’s next best? Being as close to self sufficient as we can and not relying on foreign commitment to liberty, morality, and fairness to the greatest extent possible. How do we get there? Produce more and consume less. Save more and spend less. Invest more and borrow less.

    What happens to all that production if people are told to consume less?

    I think it works it’s way out in the end. Exports increase consumers, as well.

    But if other countries are smart like us, they’ll want their own production, not imports.

    This all seems to have the same problem as children: if children grew up to be what they wanted to be as children, we’d all be firemen and ballerinas. (or something.)

    Yes other countries want their own production, not imports. That’s already true.

    • #136
  17. RufusRJones Member
    RufusRJones
    @RufusRJones

    Ed G. (View Comment):
    I know that cheap goods are not a long term substitute for an economic engine in my community.

    Not under a deflationary monetary regime, which is the way God intended us to live.

    • #137
  18. RufusRJones Member
    RufusRJones
    @RufusRJones

    I think the term is “competitive advantage”. Each country has to do what they can based on their resources. We are a higher level country and we should capitalize on that. 

    The issue is inflationism. This is why I recommend that you listen to Steve Bannon on this stuff.

    • #138
  19. Taras Coolidge
    Taras
    @Taras

    Ed G. (View Comment):

    Taras (View Comment):

    Ed G. (View Comment):

    Taras (View Comment):

    @ edg — “I’m trying to understand why ‘we’ wouldn’t want iphones to be produced here.”

    Basically because it would make us poorer to do so. Producing iPhones here means other, more valuable things are displaced.

    It’s like the (fictitious) Finland Orange Growers Cooperative. Finland could grow its own oranges, in greenhouses and at vast expense, instead of importing Spanish oranges; but that would be dumb.

    Except that I dont believe adding another manufacturing operation of something like iPhones would displace anything. It wouldn’t cause anesthesiologists or architects to take jobs on the line making phones. There are people and communities for whom this would be a welcome addition of sustainability and and improvement.

    Also, economic analysis isn’t finite. It would cost Spaniards 10x the cost of importing oranges if they grew them themselves? Ok. Accepting the differential for the sake of argument, that’s the differential now, not forever. Also that’s not what I’m asking. Conceptually, wouldnt Spaniards benefit from having local orange orchards selling to other places?

    There are at least three perspectives involved: the individual producers, consumers, and the actual communities where production occurs (or doesn’t) occur. I’ve been talking about the last one.

    I understand why Apple or Nike is happy paying relatively nothing for essentially slave labor. I also understand why consumers would want to pay $20 less (or whatever) for their iPhone. Communities need economic engines in order to be healthy or even a going concern. They pay to attract such engines if they have to, and it appears that they have to. Some places dont understand what they have until it’s gone. A Walmart is better than nothing, but ultimately its empty calories and the host will die without real food.

    Capital, raw materials, and labor dedicated to making iPhones would thereby be unavailable for other things.  […]

     

    The different perspectives still apply. Whose capital? Which other things? All labor? You’re presenting this in terms of either or. While that could be true from time to time in different places, it’s not always true. There’s plenty of empty factories in the near suburb just south of me along with people willing to work. Why would I object to an iphone factory there as opposed to Foxconn? Having that factory in my backyard is a net benefit to me and everyone around there, compared to an empty building. True or not true?

    If a capitalist pours money into reopening an empty factory, obtaining machines, raw materials, government permits, hiring and training workers, etc. because he believes that, perhaps years later, he will get back more than he put in (if he ever does: see Ford Edsel); he is unable to invest the same capital in other productive pursuits.  This is what “opportunity cost” means.

    The reason capitalists aren’t doing that is they would lose their money.  (See:  Solyndra.)

     

    • #139
  20. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Taras (View Comment):

    If a capitalist pours money into reopening an empty factory, obtaining machines, raw materials, government permits, hiring and training workers, etc. because he believes that, perhaps years later, he will get back more than he put in (if he ever does: see Ford Edsel); he is unable to invest the same capital in other productive pursuits. This is what “opportunity cost” means.

    The reason capitalists aren’t doing that is they would lose their money. (See: Solyndra.)

    Doesn’t that mean that the capitalists were actually doing it right?  They could see that Solyndra was a scam, only Obama et al were stupid enough to buy into it.  (Not using their own money, of course.)

    But a business that could actually be productive, is a different story.

    • #140
  21. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    RufusRJones (View Comment):

    Ed G. (View Comment):
    Most national and local policies are set up to favor the consumer. There’s nothing wrong with policies favoring the consumer unless it’s at the expense of the producer or employment. I think so many policies are inherently either or. For instance, tax policy. Why tax income and employment? Why not tax sales or consumption? Regulations: we’re all familiar with overregulation and generally favor deregulation at least to the point where unreasonable/counterproductive obstacles or costs are eliminated.Reduce government share of GDP: the more people have of their own to spend the more we can offset any increases to cost of consumption. Trade agreements: yes it’s nice to reduce red tape to make trade easier, but we really shouldn’t tolerate one-sided restrictions as that itself is a major economic distortion toward favoring consumption of foreign production; we also shouldn’t tolerate treatment of foreign workers that we wouldn’t allow with our own – that too is an economic distortion as we are one of the free-est places in the world, contributing to loss of national self sufficiency. There are others I’m sure.

    Tax consumption instead of income. Be libertarian on regulations. Have a deflationary monetary standard.

    Since we can’t do that…lol

    But yes.

    Taxing consumption is fine in that it encourages savings, but when consumption is forced by inflation, it is a trap: you spend today to retain the value of your earnings, but then you are taxed of the benefit of spending now.

    Deflation is good. Inflation debases purchasing power. Wages do not keep up with inflation. In 1960 a can of Campbell’s chicken noodle soup was I think 6 or 8 cents a can. Now you don’t even have a character on your keyboard. And a can cost today? $3.00? Maybe a $1.50? (I don’t buy soups much.) At a dollar fifty that’s roughly 20 times the cost due to inflation. And everything else has gone up by 20 times in the past 50 or 60 years; houses, washing machines, cars, food.

    One thing that hasn’t gone up this much is minimum wage. In 1960 the minimum wage was $1 per hour. Today it is what? $8 or $9 per hour? Which has only risen 8 or 9 times. Even a $15 an hour minimum wage does not make up for the shortfall. And to make things worse, in 1960 most households were single-earner; today most households to maintain purchasing power by being double income.

    One $3,000 a year job in 1960 would buy as much as two $30,000 annual salaries today.

    • #141
  22. Taras Coolidge
    Taras
    @Taras

    Ed G. (View Comment):

    Taras (View Comment):

    Ed G. (View Comment):

    ..

    And when people have to pay more to buy them, that means they have less money left to buy other things.

     

    Probably true as an immediate and direct effect, but not forever and there may be very good reasons to accept that condition.

    [E.g., then“infant industries” argument.  When countries try trading present poverty for future wealth, it occasionally works.—Taras]

    I’ve not been talking about the consumer perspective, though. The proposition was that we don’t even want iphones to be made here. We meaning the US and its inhabitants.

    [Who doesn’t “even want iphones to be made here”?  Rather, people don’t want to lose money making iPhones here.  Where it makes economic sense, inshoring (moving work from overseas) is already happening.—Taras]

    I’ve heard similar things over the years about textiles and such. The argument being that we can repurpose our labor and capital to higher things. I think that reasoning is flawed. First it’s not true in all circumstances or places although it could be true in some. Second, I think Learn To Code or Become An Engineer (i.e. the glib distillation of repurposing to higher ends) are misguided because there are natural limits to some people’s abilities and to the number of openings for such occupations anyway. Third, if others can provide their own services (and I think they can) then there is nothing left holding up the house if that’s all we have to offer. Fourth, it’s true that individuals engage in business not communities, but it’s also true that individuals are part of a community and it’s a two way street. Fifth, I think production is objectively better for a community than consumption, and to the extent that bringing iphone production to most places in the US would cause displacement it would displace employment from Walmart, government, and the “no longer looking”. The idea that we’re anywhere near full load at the highest use for either domestic labor or domestic capital strikes me as incorrect – so incorrect that people living in flyover would look at you like you were dumb or evil for making the claim.

    [I will trust venture capitalists to know their own business better than I do.  On the other hand, they may not be considering all of the external or non-economic costs.  In particular, the costs of outsourcing to China, OMG.—Taras]

    As a general proposition, I would counter that this regime of engine removal and cheap imported goods for the masses hasn’t caused worse problems (yet) because we haven’t (yet) reached the bottom of debt load or sold off whatever capital reserve we had built up. Also, the US remains free and stable (for now) and so we’re still the world’s reserve currency (for now).

     

    • #142
  23. Ed G. Member
    Ed G.
    @EdG

    Taras (View Comment):

    Ed G. (View Comment):

     

    The different perspectives still apply. Whose capital? Which other things? All labor? You’re presenting this in terms of either or. While that could be true from time to time in different places, it’s not always true. There’s plenty of empty factories in the near suburb just south of me along with people willing to work. Why would I object to an iphone factory there as opposed to Foxconn? Having that factory in my backyard is a net benefit to me and everyone around there, compared to an empty building. True or not true?

    If a capitalist pours money into reopening an empty factory, obtaining machines, raw materials, government permits, hiring and training workers, etc. because he believes that, perhaps years later, he will get back more than he put in (if he ever does: see Ford Edsel); he is unable to invest the same capital in other productive pursuits. This is what “opportunity cost” means.

    The reason capitalists aren’t doing that is they would lose their money. (See: Solyndra.)

     

    Yes, I know. That’s not what I’m talking about. I apologize, I think my inarticulateness strikes again because I’ve tried to make clear the distinctions I’m making and the concept I’m arguing against and I seem to be failing. The motivations and incentives of individual capitalists is not what I’m talking about.

    Having a factory in my community is a net benefit to me and the whole community, especially compared to an empty building. True or false? I, and my fellow citizens, want a factory (as many as we can get) in our community independent of the preferences of individual capitalists or consumers as a whole. True or false?

    • #143
  24. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Taras (View Comment):

    If a capitalist pours money into reopening an empty factory, obtaining machines, raw materials, government permits, hiring and training workers, etc. because he believes that, perhaps years later, he will get back more than he put in (if he ever does: see Ford Edsel); he is unable to invest the same capital in other productive pursuits.  This is what “opportunity cost” means.

    The reason capitalists aren’t doing that is they would lose their money.  (See:  Solyndra.)

    I’m late to this conversation, but I think that the reason capitalists aren’t investing in manufacturing is because the pay-off in the stocks casino is paying off so well.  And paying off in a cycle of higher and higher prices, which leads to higher and higher investment.  But the P/E ratio is horrendous and the market is very infirm.  If the Fed raises rates, the “free” money banks and investors borrow to play will trim the margin and shut off a lot of investing.  Then with less investing, comes lower stock prices.  And this vicious cycle could mean a lot of “creative destruction” in the financial markets.

    • #144
  25. RufusRJones Member
    RufusRJones
    @RufusRJones

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Taras (View Comment):

    If a capitalist pours money into reopening an empty factory, obtaining machines, raw materials, government permits, hiring and training workers, etc. because he believes that, perhaps years later, he will get back more than he put in (if he ever does: see Ford Edsel); he is unable to invest the same capital in other productive pursuits. This is what “opportunity cost” means.

    The reason capitalists aren’t doing that is they would lose their money. (See: Solyndra.)

    I’m late to this conversation, but I think that the reason capitalists aren’t investing in manufacturing is because the pay-off in the stocks casino is paying off so well. And paying off in a cycle of higher and higher prices, which leads to higher and higher investment. But the P/E ratio is horrendous and the market is very infirm. If the Fed raises rates, the “free” money banks and investors borrow to play will trim the margin and shut off a lot of investing. Then with less investing, comes lower stock prices. And this vicious cycle could mean a lot of “creative destruction” in the financial markets.

    Stock buybacks. Financial engineering. All funded by debt. This wouldn’t be happening without such bad federal reserve policy. It’s terrible for the future. 

    • #145
  26. Ed G. Member
    Ed G.
    @EdG

    Taras (View Comment):

    Ed G. : I’ve not been talking about the consumer perspective, though. The proposition was that we don’t even want iphones to be made here. We meaning the US and its inhabitants.

    Taras: Who doesn’t “even want iphones to be made here”?  Rather, people don’t want to lose money making iPhones here.  Where it makes economic sense, inshoring (moving work from overseas) is already happening.—Taras]

    I’m also not talking about the individual producer perspective. I’m talking about “us” and where “we” would like to be as a country and as communities, and how to get there without attempting some counterproductive command economy.

    Otherwise, no I’ve heard people argue that we don’t want to build iphones here, or textiles, or whatever. Doing so would put our labor and capital to work on lower value efforts than where they’re currently employed. It’s that proposition that I simply do not believe and I simply do not understand. After so many comments here, though, I’m also worried that so many conservatives apparently don’t even recognize what I’m saying, don’t think about the perspective of actual communities or political entities. I understand the dangers that conservatives are so wary of. I do, but there’s a universe between communism and setting levers, dials, and switches of policy – which we have to set one way or another anyway – to the position where we’re getting closer to societal health.

    • #146
  27. Ed G. Member
    Ed G.
    @EdG

    In It’s A Wonderful Life Sam Wainwright is looking to open a plastics factory. He’s considering Rochester until George Bailey recommends Bedford Falls. Why would George Bailey care? Why does he want that factory in Bedford Falls when he won’t have any ownership or financial interest in it? Why does George care that the factory that had been in operation there was inactive?

    • #147
  28. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Ed G. (View Comment):

    In It’s A Wonderful Life Sam Wainwright is looking to open a plastics factory. He’s considering Rochester until George Bailey recommends Bedford Falls. Why would George Bailey care? Why does he want that factory in Bedford Falls when he won’t have any ownership or financial interest in it? Why does George care that the factory that had been in operation there was inactive?

    Because he owns the land best suited for the factory?  Just kidding.  All productive work produces goods and income.  And investors can get a return, some at 2%, some at 3%, and some at 4%.  But even 2% is good in a deflationary economy.  And if there is a constant number of dollars, and a constant surplus in goods produced, as supply increases prices will naturally drop, and the dollar will get stronger and stronger.

    If you want to export this surplus, then the money supply will expand (from overseas) slowing deflation but increasing wealth, and supply will be reduced (slowing or stopping deflation).

    Any increase in wealth is in itself inflationary until the increase in wealth stops.  But it will all eventually equilibrate.

    • #148
  29. Stina Member
    Stina
    @CM

    Highly simplified, there are two things contributing to limited production in America (maybe a third):

    1) Government policies – like epa and other regulations, corporate taxes, minimum wage laws, and Unconstrained unions that are allowed to cannibalize business.

     2) Capitalists deprioritizing their own communities in relation to maximizing profit – there’s a big range between maximizing profit and not making a profit. Big range there (well, industry specific).

    Most of the conversation surrounding this should be centered on policy. What individuals would choose is secondary to whether we have governing policies that make the 2nd viable.

    And Trump promoted policies that made the second more viable. He also promoted some that didn’t (minimum wage increases).

    We should limit this to policy and not guilting business owners – unless they support policies that make us more hostile to production.

    There is plenty to fight for in policy making that aligns with conservative values. We should promote those and find ways to make them politically winnable.

    • #149
  30. BastiatJunior Member
    BastiatJunior
    @BastiatJunior

    I might have gotten back here too late.  Quite a discussion going on here!

    I’d like to throw a few things on the pile.

    1. The corporation heads mentioned by @gumbymark in comment #21 are guilty of many things, but free market support is not one of them.  Their political brethren brought about the heavily regulated, show growth “new normal,” that devastated many of the communities in question.  This was also known as “secular stagnation,” and many of the elites didn’t seem to mind.  What these corporations want the most is protection from their smaller competitors, and they want big government to do the protecting.  They might support whatever free trade benefits them, but that is not where they are doing their real damage.  Their passion for big government does the most damage.  We’re mad at the right people, but not necessarily the right things.
    2. There was some debate about whether Americans would want to do “menial” jobs like assembling iPhones.  That is not for us or the government to decide.  While steering clear of slave labor, we should let the market decide.  Otherwise, which politician or bureaucrat do you trust to handle this?
    3. Slow growth was a major cause of the hollowed out communities discussed here.  The one constant is change.  The hollowed out communities and the thriving communities have one thing in common.  Many of the business that were there a generation ago are gone.  In the thriving cities they were replaced.  Higher growth means more thriving cities and fewer dying ones.  What about the people who lose their jobs because of the change?  That fact that unemployment goes down and wages go up during high growth mitigates that greatly.  In a slow growth economy the jobs don’t get replaced.  Show me an economy that isn’t changing, and I’ll show you a dying one.  Remember what Rush Limbaugh said about the buggy-whip industry.
    4. The debate between free trade and protectionism was robust.  Who won? :-)
    5.  Here’s my two cents.  The United States has the strongest economy in the world, and it is mostly a free trade country.  For many that isn’t sufficient evidence to support free trade, because correlation isn’t necessarily causation.  Let’s look at it from the opposite direction.  Is there a country anywhere in the world whose economy improved after they imposed multiple high tariffs?  Only have to find one.
    • #150
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