Trump Is Done

 

Trump gets full credit for destroying himself and his Presidency. And he finally did it single-handedly. We have all put up with his rudeness, crassness, and inconsistencies, and I was willing to go along.

Until now.

Trump’s protesting the election was understandable. But once he voiced his protests, he should have just done his job and limited his comments; instead, he kept inciting his most passionate followers and everyone else within shouting distance. Yes, I think it’s entirely possible that those who crashed the Capitol were not just his fans, but those who were just waiting for an opportunity to incite violence, just like the riots we saw in several major cities. And Trump gave them the cover to attack.

I hate violence. I hate breaking the law. I hate those who threaten others. And Trump essentially encouraged all of it. Even when he told people to go home today, he had to say just one more time that he was cheated in the election. He should be ashamed.

But he doesn’t have the decency to be ashamed. He’s just angry. Which justifies his insulting his vice president who put up with his abasement of him for years with class, diligence, and allegiance. And Trump thanked him by trying to discredit him.

I can tolerate a great deal from a person when they get things done. But to a great extent, Trump brought much of the hatred towards him on himself. Those who sabotaged him were incited by his disdain for them and his nastiness.

Yes, Trump did many good things during his Presidency. But those accomplishments will be overshadowed by his lack of discipline and lack of respect for those who had tried to serve him well.

He’s done.

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  1. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):
    I believe Trump lost the election when at the first debate with Biden he played down the virus and his family showed up without masks.

    I didn’t know he did that, but then I haven’t watched a debate for decades now. What words did he use to downplay the virus?

    I don’t remember exactly.  He came across as fearless of it.  When the virus first hit, Trump did so much to counter it.  His fights with reporters weren’t always helpful but he turned the gears in the machinery of the government to resolve it. He did a fine job from March through July.  Then he had to react to the election and he got into a derisive attitude toward the virus (as I’m afraid many people here on Rico have) and it continued to that first debate.  His family showing up without masks was devastating in my opinion.

    • #211
  2. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

     

    I believe Trump lost the election when at the first debate with Biden he played down the virus and his family showed up without masks. Then on cue he got the virus himself within days I think. Americans who are concerned of the virus, and that is a good deal of the middle ground of the population got the message he wasn’t serious. Of course this is a gut feel on my part, but that’s where I think he lost the election. Say what you want about the virus and its containment, but people vote on fear more so than love.

     

     

    I suppose that, given the small margin in the critical races, one could plausibly say that Trump lost the election for any of a number of reasons, since any of a number of issues might plausibly have swung enough votes to exceed those margins.

    The Wuhan virus, pugnacity, fraud, censorship, the Russian collusion narrative, four years of unhinged opposition — any of those things might have been sufficient.

    But I agree that he handled the virus poorly from a PR standpoint, even though I think the actual behavior of his administration as regards the virus was quite good — and much better than I expected in some respects.

    Yes, that’s true, but going into the election at the first debate I think it was still up for grabs.  

    • #212
  3. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Manny (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):
    I believe Trump lost the election when at the first debate with Biden he played down the virus and his family showed up without masks.

    I didn’t know he did that, but then I haven’t watched a debate for decades now. What words did he use to downplay the virus?

    I don’t remember exactly. He came across as fearless of it. When the virus first hit, Trump did so much to counter it. His fights with reporters weren’t always helpful but he turned the gears in the machinery of the government to resolve it. He did a fine job from March through July. Then he had to react to the election and he got into a derisive attitude toward the virus (as I’m afraid many people here on Rico have) and it continued to that first debate. His family showing up without masks was devastating in my opinion.

    Maybe if you believe the left’s portrayal of covid as some kind of extinction-level event.

    • #213
  4. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    kedavis (View Comment):
    Or maybe he was showing that the virus isn’t the mankind-eradicator that some portray it as, and that some have an interest in portraying it as?

    Whether that is true or not is not my point.  He did not address potential voters fears.  And he lost their votes.

    • #214
  5. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):
    I believe Trump lost the election when at the first debate with Biden he played down the virus and his family showed up without masks.

    I didn’t know he did that, but then I haven’t watched a debate for decades now. What words did he use to downplay the virus?

    I don’t remember exactly. He came across as fearless of it. When the virus first hit, Trump did so much to counter it. His fights with reporters weren’t always helpful but he turned the gears in the machinery of the government to resolve it. He did a fine job from March through July. Then he had to react to the election and he got into a derisive attitude toward the virus (as I’m afraid many people here on Rico have) and it continued to that first debate. His family showing up without masks was devastating in my opinion.

    Maybe if you believe the left’s portrayal of covid as some kind of extinction-level event.

    You seem to argue in left field. Whether that is true or not is not my point.  

    • #215
  6. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Manny (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    Or maybe he was showing that the virus isn’t the mankind-eradicator that some portray it as, and that some have an interest in portraying it as?

    Whether that is true or not is not my point. He did not address potential voters fears. And he lost their votes.

    Aren’t presidents, especially, supposed to LEAD?  If he tries to show some wusses that they shouldn’t be wusses, but the wusses choose to remain wusses, I don’t blame HIM for that.  I blame the wusses.

     

    • #216
  7. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    kedavis (View Comment):
    kedavis

    Manny (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    Or maybe he was showing that the virus isn’t the mankind-eradicator that some portray it as, and that some have an interest in portraying it as?

    Whether that is true or not is not my point. He did not address potential voters fears. And he lost their votes.

    Aren’t presidents, especially, supposed to LEAD? If he tries to show some wusses that they shouldn’t be wusses, but the wusses choose to remain wusses, I don’t blame HIM for that. I blame the wusses.

    Leadership, per my training on it, is a much more complicated subject than I think you understand.  No one is going to follow a leader off a cliff when it’s not necessary, and even if it is very few would follow.  I doubt you would follow someone to your death when the stakes are low.  When the stakes are high, such as your WWII example, then people actually volunteer to be led.  The circumstances and the consequences play a huge role in where people will follow.  Your example is comparing apples and oranges.

    Edit: And one more thing.  An election is not analogous to leadership on a battlefield.  An election is analogous to a sale.  Trump didn’t make the sale that segment of the voters wanted.

    • #217
  8. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Manny (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    kedavis

    Manny (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    Or maybe he was showing that the virus isn’t the mankind-eradicator that some portray it as, and that some have an interest in portraying it as?

    Whether that is true or not is not my point. He did not address potential voters fears. And he lost their votes.

    Aren’t presidents, especially, supposed to LEAD? If he tries to show some wusses that they shouldn’t be wusses, but the wusses choose to remain wusses, I don’t blame HIM for that. I blame the wusses.

    Leadership, per my training on it, is a much more complicated subject than I think you understand. No one is going to follow a leader off a cliff when it’s not necessary, and even if it is very few would follow. I doubt you would follow someone to your death when the stakes are low. When the stakes are high, such as your WWII example, then people actually volunteer to be led. The circumstances and the consequences play a huge role in where people will follow. Your example is comparing apples and oranges.

    Edit: And one more thing. An election is not analogous to leadership on a battlefield. An election is analogous to a sale. Trump didn’t make the sale that segment of the voters wanted.

    I’m not sure how making a sale to wusses helps either the country, or the wusses.

    • #218
  9. Raxxalan Member
    Raxxalan
    @Raxxalan

    SkipSul (View Comment):

    Raxxalan (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Raxxalan (View Comment):
    They cheated. It worked. We have to figure out how we keep it from happening again and formulate a better plan than if it does. I want to win not martyr myself.

    That seems like a pretty hard road too. Places like Georgia aren’t likely to go for election reform because it would be an admission that they were hoodwinked.

    Yes it is, but politicians respond to incentives and pressure. Georgia has enough republicans left as a 50/50 state to be able to mount a credible campaign of pressure. Plus it will be very hard to be on the side of fraud. Will require getting rid of the GA Secretary of State. I don’t know if that is elected or appointed office in GA. Party should be starting a campaign for it though. The alternative road is so much harder I think we really need to try this first, even though I have no illusions that it will be easy.

    The Republican party in Georgia, I’ve been told by people close to it, is one of the most dysfunctional state parties in the country right now, and the dysfunction is bad at all levels.

    Then it needs to be burned to the ground and rebuilt.  I did notice that Purdue and Leoffler were not the sharpest tools in the shed.  I do not think Trump helped much, but I could be persuaded he didn’t hurt much either.  Not Impressed with the Governor or Secretary of State either, again Trump may not have helped but the consent decree with Stacy Abrams was just flat out boneheaded.   I don’t accept politicians laying all the blame on Trump.  Someone could make a case to me that there is some blame there, but Republicans elsewhere won with Trump on the ballot.

    • #219
  10. Raxxalan Member
    Raxxalan
    @Raxxalan

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Raxxalan (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Raxxalan (View Comment):
    They cheated. It worked. We have to figure out how we keep it from happening again and formulate a better plan than if it does. I want to win not martyr myself.

    That seems like a pretty hard road too. Places like Georgia aren’t likely to go for election reform because it would be an admission that they were hoodwinked.

    Yes it is, but politicians respond to incentives and pressure. Georgia has enough republicans left as a 50/50 state to be able to mount a credible campaign of pressure. Plus it will be very hard to be on the side of fraud. Will require getting rid of the GA Secretary of State. I don’t know if that is elected or appointed office in GA. Party should be starting a campaign for it though. The alternative road is so much harder I think we really need to try this first, even though I have no illusions that it will be easy.

    Yes the Republicans apparently control the Georgia legislature, at least in numbers. But after what they did in terms of claiming that their elections – both of them, November and now – were just fine, why would they do a 180 on that and start working on fraud-prevention? It makes them look stupid, or even complicit.

    Because their voters make it too hot for them not to, and the national party exerts some discipline as well.  Hit them where it hurts in the donations.  They’ll come around.  I doubt anyone of them want to die on that hill.   In fact that would be a good reason to throw the Secretary of State under the bus.  The classic I wasn’t aware of the scale of the problem…yada, yada, yada.

    • #220
  11. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Skyler (View Comment):

    Viruscop (View Comment):

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    Viruscop (View Comment):
    Huh. There is a gun store near where I live, but it turns out that I can use a vote to defend myself from Proud Boys. I never knew that.

    The proud boys will never bother you and you know it. Quit such foolishness. The adults are talking.

    At the present time, they are more likely to harm me than any Radical Islamic group or China.

    It’s curious that Viruscop uses as an avatar a fictional character that uses violence to take over civilizations and transform people into mindless drones.

    Are you saying that people’s avatar is who they really want to be?  Hmm.

    • #221
  12. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):
    When has president Trump ever insulted or abased Pence? Never.

    I thought he did yesterday, when he tweeted about Pence being too cowardly to do whatever. I disapprove of putting Pence in that kind of position and then treating him that way. I’m not going to throw Trump under the bus for it, at least not until a better alternative turns up, but I don’t like it.

    That’s hardly four years of abasement.  And I think whatever Trump said yesterday must have been well-deserved if it had to do with him supporting a stolen election.  (Frankly, I didn’t even see it.)  Trump has promoted Pence frequently for four years and has never berated him.  That’s a nonsensical comment in the OP.

    • #222
  13. Raxxalan Member
    Raxxalan
    @Raxxalan

    Manny (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    I agree. These last two months have been hard to take, even for a supporter like me. Yesterday was the final straw. I can’t defend him any longer. I’ve come to the conclusion he is not mentally well balanced. That doesn’t mean he’s not functional under most conditions but highly dysfunctional under other certain conditions. I’m glad he was president but this was a tragic end, and I’m not referring to his election loss in November.

    Sounds like you’re going to REALLY enjoy the Joe Biden Show.

    How does my criticism of Trump in the last two months mean I’m going to enjoy Biden? I have voted for Trump twice and have been a strong supporter for four years. I have defended almost everything he’s done and other than his boorish twits defended everything he has said. You seem to forget I have been one of the people arguing with Gary over Trump for as long as Gary has been attacking him. The last two months have been completely irresponsible on Trump’s part. There is no evidence of widescale fraud. He’s planted that and has let that concept grow in all his followers. Then he creates a gathering where he insists the election was fraudulent and that democracy was violated. That’s language of insurrection, and that’s what happened yesterday, an insurrection on American soil at the capital of the United States. Trump is to blame, and needs to be condemned in the strongest language. That’s what a true patriot should do.

    I agree with you on much of this, except the lack of evidence of wide scale fraud.  When the rejection rate of mail in ballots is historically about 1% and in this election in critical states like MI, PA, and GA it was like .01% something smells rotten in the state of Denmark.  Add that to a larger than normal amount of undervotes the middle of the night flips and it stinks to high heaven.  I agree though there was not enough proof to overturn the results.   A lot of smoke and no visible fire.  I think Trump was right to challenge the results; however, at a certain point you have to plan for an effective counter attack.  I haven’t said a lot in the last two months because in the past Trump’s even bizarre  political instincts have had a quirky way of working.  In the end I agree with VDH he had to make the Jacksonian turn and lay the ground work for a 2024 rematch.  He didn’t do that.  He did a lot of bizarre things that had negative consequences.   I don’t know that I go so far as saying he caused this; however, I certainly feel like he contributed to it.  I consider myself a patriot, but I may reserve stronger language for what is to come, not saying that I condone this.

    • #223
  14. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Skyler (View Comment):

    Viruscop (View Comment):

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    Viruscop (View Comment):
    Huh. There is a gun store near where I live, but it turns out that I can use a vote to defend myself from Proud Boys. I never knew that.

    The proud boys will never bother you and you know it. Quit such foolishness. The adults are talking.

    At the present time, they are more likely to harm me than any Radical Islamic group or China.

    It’s curious that Viruscop uses as an avatar a fictional character that uses violence to take over civilizations and transform people into mindless drones.

    Are you saying that people’s avatar is who they really want to be? Hmm.

    At least in some cases.  Gary certainly fancies himself to be Reagan-esque.  And we’ve got Dennis as Londo Mollari…

    • #224
  15. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Skyler (View Comment):

    Viruscop (View Comment):

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    Viruscop (View Comment):
    Huh. There is a gun store near where I live, but it turns out that I can use a vote to defend myself from Proud Boys. I never knew that.

    The proud boys will never bother you and you know it. Quit such foolishness. The adults are talking.

    At the present time, they are more likely to harm me than any Radical Islamic group or China.

    It’s curious that Viruscop uses as an avatar a fictional character that uses violence to take over civilizations and transform people into mindless drones.

    Are you saying that people’s avatar is who they really want to be? Hmm.

    At least in some cases. Gary certainly fancies himself to be Reagan-esque. And we’ve got Dennis as Londo Mollari…

    Yeah, they both are pretty clear in their meaning.  I’ll never again be able to look at that picture of Reagan with that crooked natural smile without revulsion.

    • #225
  16. Randy Weivoda Moderator
    Randy Weivoda
    @RandyWeivoda

    Suspira (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    It’s a little too early to say. He’s done being President, but I don’t know that he’s done.

    OMG. So we’re in a horror movie? Where the homicidal maniac is killed but somehow doesn’t die?? Thanks. I was hoping I’d be able to sleep tonight.

    I don’t remember which Trump son said what, but a couple days ago they both were speaking out on Republicans in the House and Senate who wouldn’t vote to reject electors from certain states.  The message essentially was that that Trump owns the Republican Party and those who don’t support him will be primaried.  It made me think of a movie where a woman is just about to escape from her lunatic boyfriend when he catches her and tells her that she is never leaving him.  Never.

    • #226
  17. cornpop, jr. Member
    cornpop, jr.
    @ctregilgas

    Flicker (View Comment):

    At least in some cases. Gary certainly fancies himself to be Reagan-esque. And we’ve got Dennis as Londo Mollari…

    Yeah, they both are pretty clear in their meaning. I’ll never again be able to look at that picture of Reagan with that crooked natural smile without revulsion.

    Ha! I feel the same way. It’s gotten to the point where every time I see a picture of Reagan I think, “Ugh, Gary.” After seeing him describe himself as a poor country lawyer, I’ve thought he should change his avatar to the J. Noble Daggett character from the John Wayne version of True Grit. 

    • #227
  18. Hoyacon Member
    Hoyacon
    @Hoyacon

    SkipSul (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    You’re not getting me to buy into the nouveau, left-ish definition of “bullying.” I read here and I read a lot–perhaps to my discredit. It’s a myth that those who bring substantive, reasonable arguments against Trump are “bullied.” It’s also a myth that the site is replete with “bullies” piling on people making reasonable arguments. If someone has kept their “mouths shut” for four years, and need today’s events for cover, well, it’s nice to hear from you.

    Since Trump took office I have been told repeatedly by several members that any criticism of Trump was some variety of:

    • Aiding the enemy
    • indicating I really must have preferred Hillary
    • invalid because Trump was better than any alternative
    • showed a lack of faith
    • impossible because no actual criticism ever encountered was substantive
    • indicating I was a secret “Never”
    • indicating I was an idiot (or traitor)
    • indicating I wasn’t aware of issues
    • invalid because anyone who would make such a criticism was a snowflake

    During my time as a moderator I saw this directed consistently at other members too, to the point where many simply left or stopped engaging in posts at all. As another currently active moderator noted yesterday – it’s telling that the most active part of the site is the recurrent PIT because it’s the one place where purity tests about Trump or any other issue are moot.

    Why do you show such disdain for people for refusing to speak up and get drawn into pointless gang attacks by other members? Why do you show such disdain for people who stopped speaking up after getting threatening PMs from other members?

    @skipsul  I’m sorry for taking so long to get to this.  But since it contains inaccurate characterizations of who I am here, and what I’ve said here, I’m going to respond.

    I stand by what I said above.  The bottom line is that this place has not been all that difficult to navigate for at least a couple of years because the vast majority of the strident Trump supporters have moved on.  Anyone following the discussions should know that, and it’s not overly relevant to go back to the bad old days when some people apparently showed some other people disrespect.  And, if you think I’m in the stridently pro-Trump category, you’re barking up the wrong tree.

    Why do you show such disdain for people for refusing to speak up and get drawn into pointless gang attacks by other members? Why do you show such disdain for people who stopped speaking up after getting threatening PMs from other members?

    I’ve shown no “disdain” for anyone who chooses not to post here, and have only engaged in occasionally heated discussions with some who, like me, recognize that their comments are fair game.  The fact there was apparently once an issue is no indication there is now an issue. Let’s live in the present.

    • #228
  19. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Viruscop (View Comment):

    Jack Mantle (View Comment):

    Viruscop (View Comment):

    Jack Mantle (View Comment):

    Viruscop (View Comment):

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    Viruscop (View Comment):
    Huh. There is a gun store near where I live, but it turns out that I can use a vote to defend myself from Proud Boys. I never knew that.

    The proud boys will never bother you and you know it. Quit such foolishness. The adults are talking.

    At the present time, they are more likely to harm me than any Radical Islamic group or China.

    Just to be clear, you fear the Proud Boys more than the Chinese perpetrated Wuhan-flu? I realize that the odds of being harmed from either are quite small, but you rate the Proud Boys as a substantively greater threat? Perhaps I am unknowingly in danger. How exactly will they come at me?

    I don’t know how they will come at you. I can only speak for myself.

    Got it. How are they coming at you?

    I live in Lansing, the site of angry protests against the governor, who was the target of a radical kidnapping plot on the part of right-wing terrorists. I think it is reasonable to assume that there are more Proud Boys in the area who want to kill me, a Liberal, than there are radical Islamists or Chinese agents.

    Pure rattletrap.  Pardon my vulgarity.

    • #229
  20. Suspira Member
    Suspira
    @Suspira

    EHerring (View Comment):

    Suspira (View Comment):
    Frankly, the GOP must detrumpify, much as post-war Germany had to denazify.

    The left is sending the message that anyone who dares oppose them need not run. The right seems to be saying the same thing.

    It’s possible to oppose the Left without boarding the Trump Train. In fact, it’s necessary.

    • #230
  21. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Viruscop (View Comment):

    Jack Mantle (View Comment):

    Viruscop (View Comment):

    Jack Mantle (View Comment):

    Viruscop (View Comment):

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    Viruscop (View Comment):
    Huh. There is a gun store near where I live, but it turns out that I can use a vote to defend myself from Proud Boys. I never knew that.

    The proud boys will never bother you and you know it. Quit such foolishness. The adults are talking.

    At the present time, they are more likely to harm me than any Radical Islamic group or China.

    Just to be clear, you fear the Proud Boys more than the Chinese perpetrated Wuhan-flu? I realize that the odds of being harmed from either are quite small, but you rate the Proud Boys as a substantively greater threat? Perhaps I am unknowingly in danger. How exactly will they come at me?

    I don’t know how they will come at you. I can only speak for myself.

    Got it. How are they coming at you?

    I live in Lansing, the site of angry protests against the governor, who was the target of a radical kidnapping plot on the part of right-wing terrorists. I think it is reasonable to assume that there are more Proud Boys in the area who want to kill me, a Liberal, than there are radical Islamists or Chinese agents.

    Pure rattletrap. Pardon my vulgarity.

    A bunch of people circled the statehouse in their cars honking their horns and waving American flags. One step away from terrorism.

    • #231
  22. Suspira Member
    Suspira
    @Suspira

    Manny (View Comment):

    Suspira (View Comment):

    I can only hope that this debacle has ruined his chance to run in 2024 (please, God!) and, maybe more important, has scotched his chance to be a kingmaker in the GOP, which he decidedly was headed toward.

    Absolutely he has burned his bridges to his future and probably even his kid’s futures. There’s no coming back after leading an insurrection on the capital.

    Frankly, the GOP must detrumpify, much as post-war Germany had to denazify. I don’t call for a scorched-earth policy.

    I don’t know what you call for to “de-Trumpfy”? He showed us the way to expand the party and refresh our ideas beyond tax cuts and free trade. There is much to embrace in the Trump agenda. I applaud him on many things.

    I agree the Trump administration did many things right. I just mean, beyond getting rid of Trump himself, that his sycophants and enablers should have no future in the party. The pols that rode his coattails need to publicly recant or join him on St. Helena.

    • #232
  23. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Percival (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Viruscop (View Comment):

    Jack Mantle (View Comment):

    Viruscop (View Comment):

    Jack Mantle (View Comment):

    Viruscop (View Comment):

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    Viruscop (View Comment):
    Huh. There is a gun store near where I live, but it turns out that I can use a vote to defend myself from Proud Boys. I never knew that.

    The proud boys will never bother you and you know it. Quit such foolishness. The adults are talking.

    At the present time, they are more likely to harm me than any Radical Islamic group or China.

    Just to be clear, you fear the Proud Boys more than the Chinese perpetrated Wuhan-flu? I realize that the odds of being harmed from either are quite small, but you rate the Proud Boys as a substantively greater threat? Perhaps I am unknowingly in danger. How exactly will they come at me?

    I don’t know how they will come at you. I can only speak for myself.

    Got it. How are they coming at you?

    I live in Lansing, the site of angry protests against the governor, who was the target of a radical kidnapping plot on the part of right-wing terrorists. I think it is reasonable to assume that there are more Proud Boys in the area who want to kill me, a Liberal, than there are radical Islamists or Chinese agents.

    Pure rattletrap. Pardon my vulgarity.

    A bunch of people circled the statehouse in their cars honking their horns and waving American flags. One step away from terrorism.

    He blared his horn at me officer!  I have PTSD!

    • #233
  24. Hoyacon Member
    Hoyacon
    @Hoyacon

    Suspira (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Suspira (View Comment):

    I can only hope that this debacle has ruined his chance to run in 2024 (please, God!) and, maybe more important, has scotched his chance to be a kingmaker in the GOP, which he decidedly was headed toward.

    Absolutely he has burned his bridges to his future and probably even his kid’s futures. There’s no coming back after leading an insurrection on the capital.

    Frankly, the GOP must detrumpify, much as post-war Germany had to denazify. I don’t call for a scorched-earth policy.

    I don’t know what you call for to “de-Trumpfy”? He showed us the way to expand the party and refresh our ideas beyond tax cuts and free trade. There is much to embrace in the Trump agenda. I applaud him on many things.

    I agree the Trump administration did many things right. I just mean, beyond getting rid of Trump himself, that his sycophants and enablers should have no future in the party. The pols that rode his coattails need to publicly recant or join him on St. Helena.

    If McEnany or Huckabee Sanders has no future role in the party, I’d have a problem with that.

    • #234
  25. Suspira Member
    Suspira
    @Suspira

    Manny (View Comment):

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

     

    I believe Trump lost the election when at the first debate with Biden he played down the virus and his family showed up without masks. Then on cue he got the virus himself within days I think. Americans who are concerned of the virus, and that is a good deal of the middle ground of the population got the message he wasn’t serious. Of course this is a gut feel on my part, but that’s where I think he lost the election. Say what you want about the virus and its containment, but people vote on fear more so than love.

     

     

    I suppose that, given the small margin in the critical races, one could plausibly say that Trump lost the election for any of a number of reasons, since any of a number of issues might plausibly have swung enough votes to exceed those margins.

    The Wuhan virus, pugnacity, fraud, censorship, the Russian collusion narrative, four years of unhinged opposition — any of those things might have been sufficient.

    But I agree that he handled the virus poorly from a PR standpoint, even though I think the actual behavior of his administration as regards the virus was quite good — and much better than I expected in some respects.

    Yes, that’s true, but going into the election at the first debate I think it was still up for grabs.

    His whole demeanor in the first debate may have sunk him. It was a bad show. (I only read the reviews. I haven’t watched a debate in many years. But his performance was panned across the board.)

    • #235
  26. Hoyacon Member
    Hoyacon
    @Hoyacon

    Suspira (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    I believe Trump lost the election when at the first debate with Biden he played down the virus and his family showed up without masks. Then on cue he got the virus himself within days I think. Americans who are concerned of the virus, and that is a good deal of the middle ground of the population got the message he wasn’t serious. Of course this is a gut feel on my part, but that’s where I think he lost the election. Say what you want about the virus and its containment, but people vote on fear more so than love.

    I suppose that, given the small margin in the critical races, one could plausibly say that Trump lost the election for any of a number of reasons, since any of a number of issues might plausibly have swung enough votes to exceed those margins.

    The Wuhan virus, pugnacity, fraud, censorship, the Russian collusion narrative, four years of unhinged opposition — any of those things might have been sufficient.

    But I agree that he handled the virus poorly from a PR standpoint, even though I think the actual behavior of his administration as regards the virus was quite good — and much better than I expected in some respects.

    Yes, that’s true, but going into the election at the first debate I think it was still up for grabs.

    His whole demeanor in the first debate may have sunk him. It was a bad show. (I only read the reviews. I haven’t watched a debate in many years. But his performance was panned across the board.)

    I don’t think he was at his best, but I’d also be very reluctant to take the media’s word for it.  Chris Wallace put on a ridiculous performance as well, acting as sort of a second Biden.

    • #236
  27. SkipSul Inactive
    SkipSul
    @skipsul

    Hoyacon (View Comment):
    I’ve shown no “disdain” for anyone who chooses not to post here, and have only engaged in occasionally heated discussions with some who, like me, recognize that their comments are fair game. The fact there was apparently once an issue is no indication there is now an issue. Let’s live in the present.

    Oh, it’s still very much an issue.  As I found on another thread just a few moments ago.

    • #237
  28. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Percival (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Viruscop (View Comment):

    Jack Mantle (View Comment):

    Viruscop (View Comment):

    Jack Mantle (View Comment):

    Viruscop (View Comment):

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    Viruscop (View Comment):
    Huh. There is a gun store near where I live, but it turns out that I can use a vote to defend myself from Proud Boys. I never knew that.

    The proud boys will never bother you and you know it. Quit such foolishness. The adults are talking.

    At the present time, they are more likely to harm me than any Radical Islamic group or China.

    Just to be clear, you fear the Proud Boys more than the Chinese perpetrated Wuhan-flu? I realize that the odds of being harmed from either are quite small, but you rate the Proud Boys as a substantively greater threat? Perhaps I am unknowingly in danger. How exactly will they come at me?

    I don’t know how they will come at you. I can only speak for myself.

    Got it. How are they coming at you?

    I live in Lansing, the site of angry protests against the governor, who was the target of a radical kidnapping plot on the part of right-wing terrorists. I think it is reasonable to assume that there are more Proud Boys in the area who want to kill me, a Liberal, than there are radical Islamists or Chinese agents.

    Pure rattletrap. Pardon my vulgarity.

    A bunch of people circled the statehouse in their cars honking their horns and waving American flags. One step away from terrorism.

    Especially if they weren’t wearing masks!

    • #238
  29. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    Flicker (View Comment):
    That’s hardly four years of abasement. And I think whatever Trump said yesterday must have been well-deserved if it had to do with him supporting a stolen election. (Frankly, I didn’t even see it.) Trump has promoted Pence frequently for four years and has never berated him. That’s a nonsensical comment in the OP.

    My bad. This is what I said, an exaggeration and distortion:

    Which justifies his insulting his vice president who put up with his abasement of him for years with class, diligence, and allegiance.

    I should have just said “. . . which justifies his insulting his vice president who tolerated his abhorrent behavior with class, diligence and allegiance.” As far as I know, he only insulted him this one time.

    • #239
  30. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Suspira (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    I believe Trump lost the election when at the first debate with Biden he played down the virus and his family showed up without masks. Then on cue he got the virus himself within days I think. Americans who are concerned of the virus, and that is a good deal of the middle ground of the population got the message he wasn’t serious. Of course this is a gut feel on my part, but that’s where I think he lost the election. Say what you want about the virus and its containment, but people vote on fear more so than love.

    I suppose that, given the small margin in the critical races, one could plausibly say that Trump lost the election for any of a number of reasons, since any of a number of issues might plausibly have swung enough votes to exceed those margins.

    The Wuhan virus, pugnacity, fraud, censorship, the Russian collusion narrative, four years of unhinged opposition — any of those things might have been sufficient.

    But I agree that he handled the virus poorly from a PR standpoint, even though I think the actual behavior of his administration as regards the virus was quite good — and much better than I expected in some respects.

    Yes, that’s true, but going into the election at the first debate I think it was still up for grabs.

    His whole demeanor in the first debate may have sunk him. It was a bad show. (I only read the reviews. I haven’t watched a debate in many years. But his performance was panned across the board.)

    I don’t think he was at his best, but I’d also be very reluctant to take the media’s word for it. Chris Wallace put on a ridiculous performance as well, acting as sort of a second Biden.

    The media’s take especially was like when people who heard the debate thought Nixon won, but those who watched on TV thought Kennedy won.  It’s about people who think appearance is more important than substance.

    • #240
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