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Split-Religion Marriages and Conversions
When I was a young teenager, my dad got pulled into the Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults when a neighbor asked my dad to sponsor him through the process of conversion. The man’s wife was Catholic, so he was considering the Church’s beliefs with charitable patience. My father has participated in RCIA ever since, in varying capacities.
These days, one of his favorite TV programs is The Journey Home in which host Marcus Grodi interviews converts to Catholicism about their conversion experiences. Baptists, Lutherans, Mormons, Jews, housewives, lawyers, scientists, preachers — The show is fascinating because of the endless variety of origin stories, which provide insights and nuances which cradle Catholics like myself often have never considered.
A common theme in conversion stories is marriage or courtship to someone of a different faith. My siblings all married individuals of different theological backgrounds. Thus far, these have not resulted in any conversions, one way or the other. Best I can estimate, that general scenario of an ongoing theological difference seems as common among marriages as are conversions of one spouse to the other’s faith… or abandonment of faith altogether (surrender).
There are certainly degrees of separation and pressure to convert in marriage. Lutherans and Catholics, for example, are not as far apart as Baptists and Catholics. But even spouses who generally agree might run into significant hurdles in regard to the raising of their children; such as in regard to the timing of baptism (infant or adult), the importance of worship with a community, the roles of priests and preachers, or the centrality of the Eucharist.
The Ricochet community includes many mixed-religion marriages and conversion-through-marriage stories. I would love to hear them. What factored into your decisions? On what were you willing or not willing to bend? How did the relationship with your spouse change your views? How did your religious beliefs shape your relationship?
I would also be interested to hear stories from individuals whose faith was strengthened, rather than altered, by marriage and similar relationships.
Published in General, Religion & Philosophy
Under Jewish law, marriage is a contract; both parties must be halachically Jewish and free to enter into such a contract (free as in legally competent to enter into contracts, and not forbidden to marry because they are relatives or because they are still legally married.) Strictly (Jewishly) speaking, whatever ceremony a Jewish man and non-Jewish woman—or vice versa—may participate in, it is not a legal marriage even though it might be recognized by a civil jurisdiction.
Before 1948, one could accurately say “Judaism is a stateless nation with a national religion; one legally becomes a citizen by converting to the religion. One born a citizen stays a citizen under the though not participating in the religious life of the nation; it is possible though difficult to formally renounce the citizenship.”.
Since 1948, it’s gotten more complicated in some ways.
Historically, many Jews have renounced their “citizenship” by converting to other religions. Conversions out of Judaism have been done for many reasons; regardless of the reason, children of such converts tend not to live Jewish lives; grandchildren rarely do. Others have abandoned their religion while still acknowledging their citizenship; their great-grandchildren (if any) tend not to be Jewish. Jews who are religiously observant are more likely to have Jewish great grandchildren
That’s kind of like saying “if someone is not a US citizen and does not seek to become one but raises her (non-US born) children to believe that they are US citizens, what is the debate?”
There’s an old Jewish joke retold by Norman Podhoretz in World War IV:
“Why are you dressed like that?” asks the Jewish mother of her son when he visits her wearing the uniform of a naval officer. “Because, Mama,” he explains, “I just bought a boat, and I’m the captain.” To which, smiling fondly, she replies, “Well, by you you’re a captain. And by me you’re a captain. But by a captain are you a captain?”
SOS, I agree that standards are important, but the existence of vast numbers of secular Jews calls into question the standards. Equally important, the only ethnic component to Judaism is circumstantial, not legal/official.
ontheleftcoast, I’m not sure your discussion gets to the roots of things. Yes, you describe what is Jewish law as concluded by tradition, but is it what is what is required by G-d as written in and exemplified in the Torah? As far as I’m aware, the idea of formal conversion is relatively modern.
I’m not so sure. See Deuteronomy 7:3: “You shall not intermarry with them; you shall not give your daughter to his son, and you shall not take his daughter for your son.”
G-d sees marriage as central. And the Torah forbids intermarriage. Conversion is certainly found in the Torah – see the example of the beautiful captive (end of Deut. 21).
But if you want to have a kosher home and keep Shabbos, then you have chosen other than the secular Jewish path.
It’s well-established that only a very small minority of children from intermarried families maintain their Jewish identity. Nonetheless, non-Orthodox movements are resorting to redefining the standards in a desperate attempt to stop the hemorrhaging of their membership. It hasn’t helped. But as a result, a schism is developing in which Orthodox Jews, for the first time, have a basis to question not merely the commitment of non-Orthodox Jews but their claims to Jewishness. At the rate things are going, it would not surprise me if, in a generation, Orthodox rabbis required non-Orthodox Jews to undergo a conversion ceremony before marriage, just in case.
It can be legal/official. If you ask an Orthodox rabbi to marry you — or some Conservative rabbis, for that matter — he may ask for information to verify that your mother is Jewish. That might be the phone number of your mother’s rabbi, or a copy of her conversion certificate. There is no central authority, but there are legal and official hurdles nonetheless.
My Swedish grandmother was raised in a very strict Baptist sect (the Baptists reached far into Scandinavia, even if the official faith was Lutheran). She loathed the sect though, and married my Irish Catholic grandfather. Afterwards they rarely attended any services, though my grandfather would sneak away to attend mass, particularly if he was traveling. My father, getting little guidance from either, attended Lutheran services on his own. In this case the mixed marriage worked only while my grandparents avoided the subject.
My mother’s parents attended a variety of Protestant churches, so grew up with rather a muddled faith. Over time she was increasingly attracted to Catholicism, and even started RCIA classes in high school when she got engaged to a Catholic. That engagement (and the classes) ended when she met and married my father instead, yet the attraction to Catholicism remained. 25 years into her marriage she restarted RCIA. Now, 20 years after that, my father is also in the midst of RCIA.
Deut. 21? The only think I see about marriage there is 11-13 and its pro-marrying out and doesn’t speak of conversion.
My paternal grandmother converted from Maronite Catholic when she married my grandfather, and my maternal grandfather converted to the Protestant denomination I was raised in when he married my grandmother. As a result, both sets of grandparents were practicing and faithful members of said denomination and all children were raised in that faith. Life is easier when you’re part of the same “tribe.” Conversion seemed easy for my grandma and grandpa, but sometimes I wonder how much of that ease was due to the relatively early age at which conversion took place. Is it easier to entertain the idea of converting for one’s spouse at 21 than it is at 31? There’s a lot to be said for marrying young- the couple grows together as they try to figure out adulthood as a unit. When one is older, it can be challenging to incorporate another person into one’s life. Does this difficulty also extend into trying to meld two religious traditions?
FWIW, I’m sympathetic. My brother and I grew up in a non-Orthodox home in the NYC Distortion Field, and among our friends and classmates, nearly all are now either Orthodox or intermarried. My brother, who is not Orthodox but cares deeply about Judaism, had a rough time. He spent many, many hours tinkering with his JDate profile, and went on a lot of bad dates, until he met the woman who would become his wife. His sisters-in-law all intermarried. I don’t mean to suggest that it’s easy in any way.
Aaron,
I recently listened to a homily given by a Roman Catholic Priest who is the Director of Vocations for the Archdiocese of Miami. He addressed the choice made by some parents to let their children choose which religion they wanted to follow as adults and simply said it was a horrible idea in his opinion. The Priest reminded us that as Catholics we are called to be witnesses to Christ and missionaries who spread the Gospel. How can we do that as parents if we do not begin with teaching our own children about our faith? As parents we all want what is best for our children (or we should). If we believe that Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior, how could we turn around and deny our children the knowledge of that faith and God’s grace through the Sacraments?
Yes, and Lutherans should consider themselves catholic. However, in the US there’s still a residual fear of appear too “Roman.” So essential practices and beliefs in our Confessions, such as frequent Communion, individual Confession, and infant Baptism, are ignored or hidden. We should never apologize for the Sacraments.
One note: as a Baptized and Confirmed RC-gone-heretic, “conversion” is really a term best used for those who don’t have valid Baptisms or is a true apostate. I believe it’s still called “coming into full Communion with the Church.” Lutherans use the shorthand also, and it really aggravates me.. The word implies that one wasn’t a Christian before, rather than one who held heretical beliefs.
It could also be used for our President. :-)
My wife was what is often called a “seeker” — one who heard God’s call without much idea of how to answer. The irony is that her grandparents were Christian: one grandmother-in-law outlived two pastor husbands. However, both of her parents slipped away from the faith, her mother very consciously so.
Confessional Lutheranism was what called us, from different directions. She and my son were baptized the same day.
Friscosis Guy: #73 “Lutherans should consider themselves catholic”
Of note I recently read that idea as made by a known Presbyterian, a clergyman who is published as a theologian. He was then asked if his church was universal (which is the meaning of catholic), and it was discovered that his church was not universal.
There are Catholics and there are non-Catholics. Catholics are part of a universal church. The others, of which I was one? Not so.
Donald Todd,
Any chance you remember who that Presbyterian was? I’m curious about the original statement.
We don’t call denominations universal because we don’t claim all Christians are in one denomination.
We wouldn’t assign denominations to the universal church, rather the “holy catholic church” we speak of in the creeds is the fellowship of all believers.
This problem is no surprise…sounds like Scott Hahn.
Catholicity is a problem for those who come from a Calvinist tradition: the doctrine of election and double predestination deny objective justification, the belief that Christ died for us all.
I wonder if you’re conflating the modern use of the verb root in this verse (the grammatical form which is translated as “intermarry” is, I think unique in the TaNaKh) with how it is used in its other Biblical appearances. My impression is they mostly seem to be talking about the social aspects of the relationship, that other verb roots are used for “marry” in a legal context and that there is a Talmudic inference from Deut 7:3 that such intermarriages aren’t legally valid.
The bottom line today, though is that a person who has entered into such a marriage (under a non-halachic legal code with a non-Jew) is not recognized by halacha as being married, and no Get is required to permit that man or woman to stand under the chuppah to marry a Jewish woman or man.
In any specific situation when other legal systems are simultaneously involved, they will of course have their say as well.
I was thinking of a couple I know (mother gentile, father Jewish). He has taken responsibilty for raising his children as Jews aided by some of his immediate family and sends them to Hebrew school. His wife is highly supportive and certainly participates in all family occasions and holidays. The kids aren’t confused because many of their friends practice different religions as well; this seems “normal” to them.
I understand and respect the traditional laws but I do know these kids will grow up to raise their children in the Jewish faith not unlike those of Mama Toad who has raised her children as Catholics although married to a Jewish man.
Matt White: #76 “Any chance you remember who that Presbyterian was? I’m curious about the original statement.
Peter Leithart, who wrote “To catholic to be Catholic” at his blog, Leithart.com.
Friscosis Guy: #77 “Catholicity is a problem for those who come from a Calvinist tradition: the doctrine of election and double predestination deny objective justification, the belief that Christ died for us all.”
Catholicity can prove to be a problem for those outside of the Catholic Church who want to believe that they are catholic in some sense.
Friscosis Guy: #73 “One note: as a Baptized and Confirmed RC-gone-heretic, “conversion” is really a term best used for those who don’t have valid Baptisms or is a true apostate.”
Since I have met a lot of people inside and outside of the Catholic Church who have gone through conversions, literal “meet Jesus” kind of conversions, I don’t know that I would second your description of the word conversion.
Some of these people have lived in their churches for a long time, and suddenly it becomes apparent to them why they are there. That is a conversion. They gain a focus that they haven’t had before. They find a relationship that had previously eluded them. They begin looking up in stead of looking elsewhere.
Others come from the outside, freed from personal demons (such as addictions) and look for a place where they expect to find Jesus. These are conversions. These people gain a focus as well. They want to know Him Who made them better and then why He made them better. That is prudent and prudence is a virtue.
In all cases of a conversion in the Christian sense, people meet Jesus. One of the above happened to me and here I am 40 years later. But I am no longer an evangelical Pentecostal, even for the joy that religion gave me.
Matt White: #76 “We don’t call denominations universal because we don’t claim all Christians are in one denomination.”
Well Matt, you have it partly right. Not all Christians are in one denomination. The Universal Church recognized that officially at Vatican II.
This is where you lose me. Nationality and citizenship are not necessarily synonymous with religious beliefs. If they were, all Irish Catholics would bear allegiance to Ireland and all Greek Orthodox to Greece and our very own James of E would bear allegiance to Russia.
I do understand your point of view based upon centuries of Jewish history in other countries; but I would argue based upon extensive personal experience that those living in the U.S. can and do make individual personal choices about their religious affiliations.
In the case of Judaism, it’s not either/or. There is overlap. If Judaism were purely religious, it would be a contradiction in terms to speak of a “secular Jew”, but many Jews describe themselves precisely that way. There is secular Jewish literature, secular Jewish music, secular Jewish art, secular Jewish culture. Jewish food. Jewish humor.
Jews living continents apart have DNA more similar to each other than to the populations among which they live. At the risk of being repetitive without adding anything, I’ll say it again: The religion came second; the peoplehood came first.
And I like the analogy above. Just as — no matter how much you want to live as an American — you can’t become American by sneaking over the border, no matter how much you want to live as a Jew you can’t be Jewish by just saying you want it. Conversion involves permanently joining the Jewish people (and being accepted by their representatives), not merely adopting Jewish metaphysics.
My Dad tells the story of how he had Catholicism beaten out of him by Nuns. He attends church now with Mom (but only in the last 10 years). My wife stopped going to Catholic church after the church’s character changed from when she was a teenager (30+ years ago) and watching her Mother suffer from cancer.
This is sad, and also underscores for me the importance of an intellectual as well as emotional understanding and attachment to one’s faith. Other people will always let us down, or fail to live up to the precepts of their faith, and so our subjective experiences with other believers — good as well as bad — is not a sound foundation for the spiritual life. Faith should be an anchor, not a skiff tossed on the waves.
I say this as a person who made her way to the Catholic Church by way of determined study: by reading, by researching the questions and objections I had; learning why the Church taught what she did and what the basis of her claims of authority were; lots of Aquinas, lots of apologetics…. My point is that no nasty nun, silly dissident priest, or even a pope that I think speaks too carelessly, is able to affect my belief. I did experience, years after my return to the Church, a really regrettable and painful falling-out with our priest, whom we had regarded as a good friend. It was very upsetting, but I know the reason my faith wasn’t shaken was that I had a firm intellectual foundation that was able to withstand the emotional turmoil.
Sorry, I can’t let this one go. I agree that one can’t self-describe as a Jew, Protestant, or Catholic unless you personally follow the required practices and specific religious commandments.
But I was referring to children born of a gentile mother and a Jewish father who have been raised in the Jewish faith, taken their bat and bar mitzvahs, attended Hebrew school and studied Torah. I’m hardly in favor of defying traditional norms, but honestly, I would find it difficult to look at these kids and tell them they are not Jews because their mother never converted.
Any one who is raised as an observant Jew recognizes the problem themselves and wants to fix it.
I know of people who discovered they were not actually Jewish when they were in their twenties. The ones who were observant were formally converted very quickly, indeed.
“Any one who is raised as an observant Jew recognizes the problem themselves and wants to fix it.”
50 years on in life, I find it impossible to take this view seriously; a “problem.” I cannot accept that G-d can take seriously the idea that a rabbi or group of rabbis passes judgment on someone knowledge and level of observance and, POOF, rules that they are forever admitted to a faith. Substance, and taking on the practices and study is what matter. Certainly a conversion may be laudable, but as definitional?
Again, I refer to the secular Jew who has no respect for or interest in Jewish observance versus the de jure non-Jew who accepts as many of the commandments as I do. As Prager says, G-d has common sense. Considering that someone who is raised Jewish and/or accepts Judaism but who does not go through a formal conversion is not Jewish makes no sense.
Vicryl Contessa, re #52
Have you figured out I’m RushBabe’s husband? I figured you might have gotten it from other people or previous meetups.