Ricochet is the best place on the internet to discuss the issues of the day, either through commenting on posts or writing your own for our active and dynamic community in a fully moderated environment. In addition, the Ricochet Audio Network offers over 50 original podcasts with new episodes released every day.
Trans Activists Are Erasing Bisexuals
The more I talk to my kiddo and gathered friends (in SoCal), the more I am getting called “old” and “old fashioned”. Imagine me, a young mother, not yet 50, being schooled by my 18-year-old about how the LGBTQIA+ community isn’t what it used to be.
I’ve been told time and again that my experiences are no longer valid. Whether or not they’d come out and say it exactly, that’s the gist. It would never be said explicitly, because everyone’s experiences are valid, etc, etc. But it has been said to me that everything I know is the old way.
The old way includes bisexuals. You know, the women or men that love women and men.
Since we know now that gender either doesn’t exist at all or is completely non-binary or on a scale of masc to femme (unless you’re indigenous and Two-Spirit), this means that bisexuality no longer exists. The Federalist called it back in 2017. Trans movements are erasing homosexuality. If there is no gender or it is how you feel or it is fluid, then there can be no protections based upon gender or sexual orientation since it can be changed at any moment.
According to my kid, this makes me a TERF.
Maybe it does. But I have always felt that rights for people with various disorders are individual and shouldn’t be lumped into a large, generalized group that does not take into account their various issues. Trans people are not a homogenous group. Some are relatively well adjusted. Many are not. Many have serious identity conflicts that are not just related to their ideas of being in the wrong body.
Regardless, by definition, this eliminates bisexuality. If there are no genders, then bisexuality is a lie. It is even to the point that biresource.org, the resource for bisexuals is now calling it “bi+” because there are trans people who consider themselves bisexual. They even go so far as to define it:
For example, bi+ activist Robyn Ochs defines bisexuality as “the potential for attraction to people with genders similar to and different from [your] own.”
I guess the bi, in bisexual refers to what, then? No one really has an answer for that. It is like lesbian or gay. It is out of fashion. Now it is all just queer.
There is, therefore, only pan-sexuality; the idea that one is attracted to a person, not a gender.
In 2017, 390 people out of 100,000 were estimated to be trans. Approximately 50% of respondents were younger and it was expected that more would identify in the future. According to the Williams Institute, over 1,397,000 people in the US identify as transgender. It is only expected to rise as younger people are identifying more and more as queer, trans, or non-binary.
I never needed particular visibility. I never felt the need to “come out” to anyone. Whoever I dated was my business and if I introduced my person to someone, that was what it was. If I felt like talking about the relationship, I did. If I didn’t, I didn’t. I didn’t need a flag or a pin or an undercut to show just how bisexual I was/wasn’t. I never felt the need to explain it to anyone (except maybe my parents when I was in college, but I got over that).
I still do not need “visibility” or special treatment. What I would like, however, is for my orientation to be respected and not turned into something it isn’t based upon this apparent fluidity of gender. I would like to not be judged as some sort of bigot because I love men and women.
And I want my men to be men and my women to be women.
Otherwise, what is even the point of bisexuality or the attraction to the two? The idea is that they are different. The idea is that it is okay to be attracted to that.
I understand that trans life is very hard and I have known a number of people who have transitioned partially or completely, had surgeries (or not). I am not discounting any of that. But what I do discount is changing the terminology to mean something completely other than what it is.
I am not bisexual+. I am not queer.
Also, I’m not old!
Fun side note: according to the Williams Institute, Texas is gayer than New York by more than 24,000 people.
Second side note: pictures searched through Shutterstock show more “trans” when searching “bisexual”. Can’t be escaped. I will provide no commentary about this.
Published in General
No that isn’t fair. At least not on Ricochet. Most other places I followed either. Such a pairing was often asserted anyway. As I say, conflation of opposition to SSM with disapproval of homosexuality was the the real successful knockout blow for SSM. Followed by the also incorrect conflation of opposition to SSM with wanting to tell people who they could love or have sex with.
Trans issues will gain popularity in similar ways. I can already hear it as my kids talk to me about their conversations with other kids. Grooming indeed.
And women. Hence exactly what you said.
Oookay. So let’s start from the top: no one ever said they did. However, when one is having sex/relationships with people who ae homosexual strictly, there’s a necessary level of acceptance. Given the derision bisexuality is treated with, one can understand why men (particularly) need a bit more grace and kindness.
Do you think that bisexuals think of it as a hobby? Do you think that I’m looking at that and thinking, “Well, gee, I could pass on either side, but I’m really looking for something to do on a Monday night…?” C’mon, man.
The problem is that bisexuality is minimized as much as possible with extreme derision. With the LGBT community, they really adopted the T. But the B’s are just kinda hanging out. Not a whole lot of attention to their issues or acceptance. Just a whole lot of “oh, but you’re passing!”
Do you have any idea how isolating it is to be a part of a *literally named social group* but still be ignored and treated like a story-book character?
I know a few bisexual men. And I know some gay men that I would classify as being bisexual. But culturally, they’re “gay” and are in a permanent homosexual relationship. They’re attracted to women and have slept with more than a few women.
But in gay culture that’s just their self-hatred and personal denial, rather than something they liked and enjoyed at the time and might also still enjoy…if it weren’t verboten by their peer groups.
Ha! If they really like it I bet they still do it. (Or they definitely would if they were gay, wait, this is not the formulation I wanted….)
It’s the other side of married men who have sex with men (‘she’s my wife, he’s just sex’) but definitely don’t see themselves as gay.
Continued:
Do you think that bisexuals enjoy their treatment by “the community”, particularly now that their preferences are being equated to the trans experience or somehow just a pre-cursor to either homosexuality or trans?
I feel like you don’t, since you seem to make light of it.
I’ve only had one year or two that I ever went to Pride because I never, ever felt that people like me were accepted. Not just because of my political persuasion, but because I was never enough…whatever. And I’ll bet that many bisexuals have the same experience. Not gay enough, not straight enough. Gee, where’s my club? Oh, it’s the one that denies that I even exist.
Did I miss someone advocating for anyone keeping their homosexuality in the closet ?
I was here too, and I recall differently – but I guess we can go Rashomon on this one. I could recall incorrectly.
That’s what public school is for…
Fair. We could all do more of that.
That’s a bunch of malarky!
But I think this is why I don’t really get your OP’s point. Imo there’s more to being a gay man than the desire to have sex with men. It has become a whole subculture with its own humour, mores, customs and even dialect. It is indeed not just something you decide to do on Monday night.
Imo gay men and lesbians have their own overlapping but distinct subcultures. Is this also the case for bi people? Honest question: I don’t know.
Okay, this is dated, but Pew in 2013:
And this may have changed with SSM but:
So there’s that. Is it passing? Maybe? Your thoughts?
I think I do, yes. From your own it’s worse, and we shouldn’t.
Other than a number of in-jokes, no. We don’t get a culture. We get a smattering of the other cultures with a “ha-ha, but it’s not *real* for you…” sort of side text.
This is, again, a reason I really dislike the LG mixed with the B. Its a different lived experience. Our partners live with the real possibility that we will leave them for someone they could never be (male or female).
Fun story. If they feel like I do, no they never “come out”. And it’s not an identity, just like it’s not an “identity” or political position for anyone hetero you speak with.
It is just how life is lived. Period.
Because they don’t have to do extra things to be a part of the identifiable subculture. Also, partly because unless they are putting on another identity, they can’t. I can’t be butch or masc. I’m just too…me. I’m not good at pretending to be something else for very long. I’m too tired and old and earnest for that crap and have been since I was about 25.
Ultimately, it’s not just about passing. It is about identity. I don’t feel the need to overtly telegraph my sexuality. Yes, this makes it particularly difficult when open to dating women. Things are much more subtle. But it does mean my life is not wrapped up in who can or cannot access my bits.
That’s not unique. Anyone with a partner has the same situation, because nobody can ever be something they’re not: shorter, taller, older, younger, different hair, bigger chest/pecs, better six-pack….
Not understanding that sounds a lot like expecting some kind of special victim status.
Nobody just “gets” a subculture unless they’re born into one. They create it if they have the need of it.
From what you’re saying I’m getting that bi people don’t feel that need?
I’m not criticising, or one upping, just trying to understand. There’s nothing wrong with not feeling the need.
Actually I think that is a reason some gay men won’t ‘date’ bi men.
(Exception: the bi man is super hot. We are a shallow people.)
Okay.
(Though of course it is an identity and political position for straight people. Just not a conscious one, which is one definition of [trigger warning SoCons] privilege. Most of us have some in different situations.)
? From what you say there isn’t one that’s bi, so you’d be participating in lesbian subculture?
When people meet you do they assume you’re straight? If so, that’s you passing, and there’s nothing wrong with that. I’d have no problem passing because of other people’s assumptions – it would be convenient.
Do you think the lesbians you’ve dated had lives that are focused on who can or cannot access their bits? Seems a bit harsh :-(
Weeeeell. I did once meet a guy who pulled something the size of a ping pong ball out through his penis. He was shocked and said, “I felt like I just had a baby!!!”
So, you never know.
In fact I know now more than I wanted to. I’m unfollowing this conversation.
Awww, kiddo.
No.
I think you’re missing the point entirely. It’s a small group. They might feel the need, but they have been do marginalized by *all the groups* that they aren’t about to create their own. They’ll pick a side and hope they learn something.
You really don’t seem to get the point. There is no space. People are gay, straight, or trans. More and more bi is being considered people who are just confused or who haven’t picked a lane. There’s no “space” or “club” for bisexuals. It isn’t about feeling the need (as if that was ever the deciding factor for these things). It’s about ability, acceptance, and yes, power. Guess what? Because we “pass”, we do not get the power of our own spaces. Because people like you will say that we don’t need it because we pass.
Bisexuals face different problems.
I’ve kissed my girlfriend in public and been borderline assaulted by people inviting themselves to a “threesome”. I’ve had people grope and grab and make all manner of lewd comment, in public spaces, because I dared to be with her. I don’t know how often you have had people insist that you and your partner join them for a tryst, but I’m guessing I have you beat.
Must be nice.
No, but I’m trying to.
But you don’t need my permission to create your separate space if you need it. My opinion of whether you “pass” or not, or whether you’re confused or not, is irrelevant to what you need.
Gay spaces didn’t start with straight approval. When they started in the West they were in fact illegal. Gay men certainly went to prison when they were busted there. But they made those spaces anyway because they needed them.
I’m assuming that this wasn’t in a gay bar?
To be honest, I think this is a woman issue (bisexual or lesbian or perhaps even straight) wrt straight men in straight space (which is most space) rather than a purely bisexual issue.
For perspective gay men (and bi men when they’re with another man) can have their own different issues in straight spaces when they express affection. Not that it’s a competition.
Yes, after major damage has been done.
We’re reordering all of society to cater to the desires of the mentally ill.
That’ll end well.
Hey, If it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck…
If it looks like duck and it quacks like a duck, it’s a german shepard.
Working in a public high school, my concern is for the encouragement of children – yes, these are children – of middle school and high school ages to choose a trans pathway and keep it secret from parents. Yes, it happens often. There has been pushback from teachers because they are not always sure how to address certain students on any particular day (are they Ash [a particularly popular trans name] or Sara or Sean today?). How do the teachers know that for this particular student they have to refer to them by their legal name when talking to the parents? The reason for this is because the students have told the group advisor (of GISA – Gender Inclusion Sexuality Alliance) that their parents would not approve, and it could result in child abuse.
Yes, these are anecdotes, but don’t think for a minute it is not happening in your community as well.
For the adults I have tried to approach this from a risk standpoint – parent pushback and lawsuits. But I was told that the Superintendent and others in admin have met with a group (Upfront Minnesota – very pro trans activist) and certainly they must have all the information regarding risks. So the sexuality groups continue – starting at age 12, not with any mental health concerns, not with the suggestion that they need to grow and experience their adolescence before making huge sexual/gender decisions, not with consulting with parents, but allowing children to think they can make possibly irreversible changes to their bodies and they will live happily ever after. How many are we putting on the path to suicide?
Anyone with a modicum of an understanding of the adolescent brain knows that rational thought does not develop fully until early to mid twenties. Adolescents are running on pure emotion.
Another concern I have for the fad of trans identities is that it is affecting those students who are cognitively lower and do not really have the mental capacity to think through this type of decision. One student I personally worked with in our transition program (ages 18-21) was convinced she was a boy (not male, but a boy). I asked her what convinced her she was really a boy, she said that she dresses like a boy, and doesn’t like makeup, and likes boy things (she envisioned herself as a rapper). Therefore, she should be a boy. Her therapist (multiple mental health issues were present), encouraged surgery to remove her breasts, as well as a hysterectomy. The girl was thrilled that she would not have to have her ‘monthly’ anymore.
When I asked her why she needed to be a boy, she stated that when she was in Kindergarten another student told her that she had been sexually assaulted (I’m sure those weren’t the words used). My student had never forgot that and wanted to be strong in order to protect girls. I told her she could get herself strong with exercise and muscle strengthening (she was definitely overweight), but she told me that wasn’t good enough. She told me that she wasn’t doing this for sex, that she did not intend to ever get married. But she just needed to be a boy.
That was about four years ago. She is still a woman. This had happened just before she graduated from our program, and I am not sure how or why things changed. Hopefully her parents (she was not her own guardian after age 18) saw that this was not a serious case of gender dysphoria, but truly one of the girl’s passing obsession.
Just want to mention one more case. We have a student at the high school, a male, who began puberty blockers at age 12 with parental consent and encouragement. He has numerous mental health issues (depression, anxiety, ADHD – the current trifecta), and parents cannot figure out why he cannot manage his high school classes, or has been in the hospital more than once for suicide attempts.
I reiterate – these are children whose lives we are playing God with. We should be ashamed.
I haven’t read all the responses yet, Zafar, so someone else may have said this. But:
I know, because I have two daughters-in-law studying school counseling, that “addressing” childhood sexuality has become THE priority for those most directly involved in “helping” young children.
Here is the problem: When adults deliberately or incidentally expose children to ideas, materials and experiences of various kinds, we educate them—the word means to “draw out of.” The educator (parent, teacher, pastor, counselor) encourages kids to recognize and respond to some impulses and to suppress others. This is true when we teach children to share, to say “please” and “thank you” to a waitress, to accept injections and a lollipop from a pediatrician but not from a creepy man in a white van, to refrain from hoarding toys or flinging blocks at preschool. It’s true when we read them stories, show them butterflies, take them to museums, make them vacuum the living room rug… They aren’t blank slates. They have, in inchoate form at least, all the sins and saving graces of human being, and their own individual variations as well. They have kindness and violence, greed and gratitude, a desire for order and a will to power, and yes, they have (to varying degrees) interest in all the many features that, in sum, can be described as “sexuality.” But it’s not grown-up sexuality. It’s the kid version.
(Side-note: I remember taking my young children to New York City in the 1990s, and realizing that, as children brought up in a small town, where a man lying, groaning, on the sidewalk was a neighbor worthy of assistance, they did not know that the “proper” Manhattanite response to a homeless drug addict was to pass by on the other side.)
The left (mostly the left, right now) appears intent on imposing adult preoccupations and anxieties onto kids. Blinded by these, they don’t even see let alone honor what and where a child is or even what he will be. When it comes to racism, the CRT-nuts presuppose an anxious, anachronistic 1970’s version of “white supremacy”that only persons of a certain age can even pretend to believe in: What relevance or usefulness will it have when today’s four year old is 30?
To an adult, a drag queen is edgy, transgressive of boundaries, thus slightly unnerving and therefore hilarious and entertaining. But little children have not yet built the boundaries that the Drag Queen transgresses, that allow a Drag Queen to be entertaining. Little kids don’t do irony, don’t do context or history or backstory—how could they? Instead, they take these (they take adults) seriously. If sexual material is presented to them—daily, relentlessly, by teachers, Disney, books, parents—-they have to assume that sex is somehow central; that their feelings about their bodies and their genitals are more important than, say, their desire to swim in a chocolate river like Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, or solve mysteries like Nancy Drew, study animals like Gerald Durrell or travel to exotic lands and rescue people, like Tintin.
When I was a child, I was sexually abused. My mother was persuaded by the notions of Freud (whom both she and her psychiatrist had studied) that she could safely regard my revelations about this as “projection.” Stupid adult ideas can intersect neatly with parental denial: I think kids are being groomed to be vulnerable to sexual predators, and their parents are being groomed to be ineffective proteectors.
This is what I see as “grooming:” A child who has been persuaded by adults to be preoccupied with gender, sex and sexuality; a child who has been trained in the modern etiquette of exquisite accommodation to the sexually strange and intrusive is not a child who will be well-prepared to defend himself against a pedophile. Parents who have been self-trained in the belief that tolerance of sexual deviance is the highest moral virtue—the obvious message of Drag Queen Story Hour—will be ill-equipped to protect him.
Yes, and this is being done without really addressing the fundamental terms, concepts, and definitions. Much like with SSM earlier, or CRT and DEI now, well worn and understood terms are either repurposed to mean something novel and definitely not understood or accepted, or the solid terms and concepts are deconstructed altogether. Trying to discuss these fundamental changes makes one a hater. Who but a hater could oppose two people loving each other? Who but a hater could oppose teaching kids about history? Who but a hater would impose a harmful paradigm on someone who doesn’t fit? So we’re left to oppose this without any real language to do so. The only remaining forces of resistance are tradition, discomfort, and disgust. Those can’t hold any line especially with children being groomed specifically with language and no default assumption of the old order.
Some people go along with this because they’re confused by the trick. Some are in on the trick. Others don’t care what does the trick as long as they get their end state (the end justifies the means).
This is so good, GrannyDude, I wanted it to be said again. “trained in the modern etiquette of exquisite accommodation to the sexually strange and intrusive”
The kids aren’t taught how or why our overall social reactions to realities of human experience have been shaped previously; if they are they’re taught that it’s hateful and oppressive. They are taught only the modern etiquette of exquisite accommodation (in which there is no such thing as sexually strange or intrusive). They are taught that any remnant of the old language is simply an expression of hateful personality and hateful systems of oppression. The ideas we have lived with across time and cultures are no longer anything they must contend with intellectually or morally.
This all reflects my experience in my practice. It is sad. Bi men are somehow totally homeless.
First of all, thank you for sharing your story – and I’m so sorry that happened to you. It must have been awful to not be believed.
Yes, that’s true.
But when we hit puberty we start, by design, focusing on gender and sex – and that’s where and when different sexualities become an issue – and for many gay kids a major issue in terms of acceptance and the rest of your school life and experience.
Difference, in itself, is already an issue for children before puberty – same sex parents are only one example, in India religion comes into it, in most countries class/poverty and in some countries ethnicity. The bottom line is that being different can mean that a child is treated in a way that makes them miserable for the next four years – which can have an impact on who they grow up to be.
The wounds of childhood shape us – for good and often for ill. Unavoidably.
I think the objective of Drag Queen Story Hour – and I’ve never attended one – is that being different is okay – which is a major thing for school children. Children won’t see them as ‘sexual deviants’ – children who are of an age to have stories read to them have no concept of sexual (I would hope). They’ll just see them as different and gender different at that.
‘Sexual deviance’ is our generation’s projection onto this.
So – while I’m on board with not exposing children to information about sex that is not age appropriate (and I am fairly straight laced about this) I think that the objective of making difference okay (which is contrary to our instinct) is a noble one.
What troubles me about the don’t say gay laws (I know they’re not called that, and that they don’t even mention gay, which is [CoC] meta) is that from my understanding (1) they leave ‘age appropriate’ undefined [any parent can define that] and (2) school districts and teachers can be sued by anybody based on their subjective standard.
What’s that standard? Should children not be told that gay is possible and okay before they graduate from High School? Some parents would say they should never be told that. So if the school is super careful about lawsuits in the present, where does it leave their gay students in the present and the future?
I wonder who is coaching the kids to raise the specter of child abuse.
Mind, there is such a thing as child abuse, but I have a sneaking suspicion that the claim in these cases is is almost always either hysteria or a box to be checked in order for shenanigans to proceed.
I mean honestly, what kid doesn’t what to belong to a secret club?
I am sure that all kids know there will be someone who will believe their stories about fear of physical retaliation. After all, the women running these groups are more than willing to think that these parents are Neanderthals and only the school staff can provide the appropriate support. They truly believe that they know what is best for someone else’s child and not only can but will override parental wishes. The ‘advisors’ are very righteous.
Self-righteous.
Fun story: if it isn’t defined, the legal precedent is to base what a “reasonable person” would do. This is great because it gives some amount of leeway for everyone instead of the government jumping in and deciding the exact ages for different things (that don’t always generalize well to age as opposed to maturity). For example, kids may know what gay is and what it means. They don’t need lessons in same-sex activities, just like they don’t need lessons in opposite-sex activities.
Until they’re older.
Then you get into sex ed and that sort of stuff.
Once you get into that, then you’re getting into what the purpose of sex ed is. Which I think needs to be another post altogether.