Trans Activists Are Erasing Bisexuals

 

The more I talk to my kiddo and gathered friends (in SoCal), the more I am getting called “old” and “old fashioned”.  Imagine me, a young mother, not yet 50, being schooled by my 18-year-old about how the LGBTQIA+ community isn’t what it used to be.

I’ve been told time and again that my experiences are no longer valid.  Whether or not they’d come out and say it exactly, that’s the gist.  It would never be said explicitly, because everyone’s experiences are valid, etc, etc.  But it has been said to me that everything I know is the old way.

The old way includes bisexuals.  You know, the women or men that love women and men.

Since we know now that gender either doesn’t exist at all or is completely non-binary or on a scale of masc to femme (unless you’re indigenous and Two-Spirit), this means that bisexuality no longer exists.  The Federalist called it back in 2017.  Trans movements are erasing homosexuality.  If there is no gender or it is how you feel or it is fluid, then there can be no protections based upon gender or sexual orientation since it can be changed at any moment.

According to my kid, this makes me a TERF.

Maybe it does.  But I have always felt that rights for people with various disorders are individual and shouldn’t be lumped into a large, generalized group that does not take into account their various issues.  Trans people are not a homogenous group.  Some are relatively well adjusted.  Many are not.  Many have serious identity conflicts that are not just related to their ideas of being in the wrong body.

Regardless, by definition, this eliminates bisexuality.  If there are no genders, then bisexuality is a lie.  It is even to the point that biresource.org, the resource for bisexuals is now calling it “bi+” because there are trans people who consider themselves bisexual.  They even go so far as to define it:

For example, bi+ activist Robyn Ochs defines bisexuality as “the potential for attraction to people with genders similar to and different from [your] own.”

I guess the bi, in bisexual refers to what, then?  No one really has an answer for that.  It is like lesbian or gay.  It is out of fashion.  Now it is all just queer.

There is, therefore, only pan-sexuality; the idea that one is attracted to a person, not a gender.

In 2017, 390 people out of 100,000 were estimated to be trans.  Approximately 50% of respondents were younger and it was expected that more would identify in the future.  According to the Williams Institute, over 1,397,000 people in the US identify as transgender.  It is only expected to rise as younger people are identifying more and more as queer, trans, or non-binary.

I never needed particular visibility.  I never felt the need to “come out” to anyone.  Whoever I dated was my business and if I introduced my person to someone, that was what it was.  If I felt like talking about the relationship, I did.  If I didn’t, I didn’t.  I didn’t need a flag or a pin or an undercut to show just how bisexual I was/wasn’t.  I never felt the need to explain it to anyone (except maybe my parents when I was in college, but I got over that).

I still do not need “visibility” or special treatment.  What I would like, however, is for my orientation to be respected and not turned into something it isn’t based upon this apparent fluidity of gender.  I would like to not be judged as some sort of bigot because I love men and women.

And I want my men to be men and my women to be women.

Otherwise, what is even the point of bisexuality or the attraction to the two?  The idea is that they are different.  The idea is that it is okay to be attracted to that.

I understand that trans life is very hard and I have known a number of people who have transitioned partially or completely, had surgeries (or not).  I am not discounting any of that.  But what I do discount is changing the terminology to mean something completely other than what it is.

I am not bisexual+.  I am not queer.

Also, I’m not old!

Fun side note: according to the Williams Institute, Texas is gayer than New York by more than 24,000 people.

Second side note: pictures searched through Shutterstock show more “trans” when searching “bisexual”.  Can’t be escaped.  I will provide no commentary about this.

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  1. TBA Coolidge
    TBA
    @RobtGilsdorf

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Doug Kimball (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Doug Kimball (View Comment):

    The only thing to be conerned about in all of this is the rise of people confused about what they are. This is proof that grooming is working.

    I’m really sceptical about this. If grooming worked I’d be straight, in fact there would be no gay men or lesbians (or bisexuals).

    Certainly some people are attracted inexorably, exclusively to their own sex. Why this is so is still something of a mystery, though there are some possible causes. It seems to me to be at least in part, developmental, at least among homosexual males. If it were genetic, the suspect gene would have been long ago eliminated for want of progeny. There is some research suggesting a relationship between exposure to androgens in vitro and homosexuality, but certainly not in all cases.

    Homosexual behavior is found among sea mammals and primates. In other words, homosexuality isn’t just limited to human beings.

    I dunno. Sometimes power differential is a component of sexuality. Sometimes sex is a component of power. So I am a little hesitant to sign onto what animals do for dominance as ‘sexuality’ per se

    • #91
  2. TBA Coolidge
    TBA
    @RobtGilsdorf

    TheRightNurse (View Comment):

    Gary McVey (View Comment):
    But there are such people as bisexuals, and as TRN says, they seem to annoy the category-addicted. Not many, but some, and probably more females than males.

    I wanted to point out that bisexuality is often considered “soft gay” for men in particular. Even as said on this thread, “oh they’re just gay and don’t want to admit it”. This is part of the problem. It isn’t just the hetero folks that say that, it’s also the gay folks. Gay men in particular can put a lot of pressure on men to identify as gay, rather than bisexual, and that any attraction to men is automatically gay (even if somewhat attracted to women). There’s a lot of pressure in the younger generations, as well, to identify as gay because there’s a whole gay culture for men. Not so much a group of bisexual men to circle the wagons.

    There’s no “bi culture” to speak of. There’s lots of variant subcultures for gay men: the twinks, the bears, fairies, leathermen. But there isn’t really a group for the bi men. In many ways, they have it worse than bi women. At least bisexual women get the same ol’ crap that all women with a healthy sexuality get (called a whore, slut, greedy, etc). The men, on the other hand, basically get told by people they date that they have to pick a side or that they’re *really* just gay.

    It’s pretty crappy.

    I know a few bisexual men. And I know some gay men that I would classify as being bisexual. But culturally, they’re “gay” and are in a permanent homosexual relationship. They’re attracted to women and have slept with more than a few women.

    But in gay culture that’s just their self-hatred and personal denial, rather than something they liked and enjoyed at the time and might also still enjoy…if it weren’t verboten by their peer groups.

    I suppose once you have a gay flag it’s inevitable that someone will feel the need to rule all of gaydom. 

    • #92
  3. TBA Coolidge
    TBA
    @RobtGilsdorf

    TheRightNurse (View Comment):

    Agreed.

    Although, I would also point out that trans affirmation really harms feminists the most.

    I was told as a child that I could be anything I wanted to be. Girls didn’t have to be nurses or teachers. We could be CEO. We could be President. We could be anything. Being a girl had little to do with it. Like soccer? Great. Go play. Want to climb trees? Great. Go play.

    Mud pies? Awesome. Go play. Dinosaurs? Awesome! Sharks? Great!

    I was not restricted to dance classes and sewing.

    I was told that I could wear jeans and a t-shirt and still be a girl. I didn’t have to wear a ton of makeup or wear heels everywhere. I was still a woman. And it was okay. And it was okay to like those things or enjoy sports. It didn’t make me less woman.

    I fear more for the next generation of kids. Our kids’ kids. They’re being told that those things are a sign that you’re in the wrong body, that you should feel wrong in your body. Not that it is normal to be inconvenienced and irritated by hormonal shifts, boobs that grow and hurt and get in the way, and that time of the month always being right in the middle of something important that you need to do. They’re being told that not being completely delighted with all of these things means that somehow, secretly, they’re male.

    I worry about that.

    And at the end of the day, even if I wanted to be male (which I don’t, regardless of how manly I may or may not be), I can’t presume to know what that experience is. I could flatten my chest, cut my hair, and pack so that I could pass in public. I could take hormones and grow a beard. But I would still never know what it is like to wake up in the morning with my little buddy having ideas of what I was going to be doing in the next few minutes. I would still never know what it is like to grow up and develop like other boys (or not as other boys) and deal with male aggression/social issues. I would still never know what it felt like to get kicked in the balls. I can imagine. But I would never know.

    And so, I just accept that I’m who I am. I am a woman. I might be a manly woman. But not always. Sometimes I’m more of a girly girl. Depends on the day. But that’s freakin’ okay.

    We are allowed. No one is the perfect example of male/female. No one has to be in order to be their birth sex.

    Indeed. The sheer arrogance of claiming to be a woman when you are a man or vice versa, beggars belief. 

    • #93
  4. Arahant Member
    Arahant
    @Arahant

    hoowitts (View Comment):
    Examples of cannibalism can be found in nearly every carnivore society but it shouldn’t mean we carve out an exception for those who are attracted to it.

    Oh, you’re no fun anymore!

    • #94
  5. Zafar Member
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    @Zafar

    TBA (View Comment):

    • Professional medical organizations recommend against puberty blockers for children who have not reached puberty, which typically begins between ages 10 and 12. So they recommend against it which means it never happens, right?

    Puberty blockers were developed to delay early onset puberty (precocious puberty) – which is when puberty starts when a child is much younger than 10 or 12.

    • Hormone treatment for feminization or masculinization of the body is typically not considered until patients are at least 16 years old. Which suggests that younger people do sometimes get it but is atypical.

    Yes.  But on a case by case basis, why yes or why no?  Meaning, it depends on why the treatment is prescribed.

    • Gender reassignment surgery is typically only available to those 18 and older in the United States. More weaselry. Which is just typical of these people. 

    I think the point is you can’t say something always happens or never happens when it’s a medical procedure.  It is case by case, but at the same time what is typical is also informative about what usually happens or doesn’t happen.

    • #95
  6. TBA Coolidge
    TBA
    @RobtGilsdorf

    Zafar (View Comment):

    TBA (View Comment):

    • Professional medical organizations recommend against puberty blockers for children who have not reached puberty, which typically begins between ages 10 and 12. So they recommend against it which means it never happens, right?

    Puberty blockers were developed to delay early onset puberty (precocious puberty) – which is when puberty starts when a child is much younger than 10 or 12.

    • Hormone treatment for feminization or masculinization of the body is typically not considered until patients are at least 16 years old. Which suggests that younger people do sometimes get it but is atypical.

    Yes. But on a case by case basis, why yes or why no? Meaning, it depends on why the treatment is prescribed.

    • Gender reassignment surgery is typically only available to those 18 and older in the United States. More weaselry. Which is just typical of these people.

    I think the point is you can’t say something always happens or never happens when it’s a medical procedure. It is case by case, but at the same time what is typical is also informative about what usually happens or doesn’t happen.

    ‘Safe, legal, and rare’ is usually only 1.5 of the three. 

    • #96
  7. HeavyWater Inactive
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    TBA (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Doug Kimball (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Doug Kimball (View Comment):

    The only thing to be conerned about in all of this is the rise of people confused about what they are. This is proof that grooming is working.

    I’m really sceptical about this. If grooming worked I’d be straight, in fact there would be no gay men or lesbians (or bisexuals).

    Certainly some people are attracted inexorably, exclusively to their own sex. Why this is so is still something of a mystery, though there are some possible causes. It seems to me to be at least in part, developmental, at least among homosexual males. If it were genetic, the suspect gene would have been long ago eliminated for want of progeny. There is some research suggesting a relationship between exposure to androgens in vitro and homosexuality, but certainly not in all cases.

    Homosexual behavior is found among sea mammals and primates. In other words, homosexuality isn’t just limited to human beings.

    I dunno. Sometimes power differential is a component of sexuality. Sometimes sex is a component of power. So I am a little hesitant to sign onto what animals do for dominance as ‘sexuality’ per se.

    Male and female mallards pair together long enough so that the female mallard can lay its eggs and then the male mallard leaves the female mallard.  Mallards have a high rate of homosexual activity.

    This isn’t me advocating that human beings behave like mallards.  Just pointing out that we can’t blame the high rate of mallard homosexuality on woke education.  

    • #97
  8. Judge Mental Member
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    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    TBA (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Doug Kimball (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Doug Kimball (View Comment):

    The only thing to be conerned about in all of this is the rise of people confused about what they are. This is proof that grooming is working.

    I’m really sceptical about this. If grooming worked I’d be straight, in fact there would be no gay men or lesbians (or bisexuals).

    Certainly some people are attracted inexorably, exclusively to their own sex. Why this is so is still something of a mystery, though there are some possible causes. It seems to me to be at least in part, developmental, at least among homosexual males. If it were genetic, the suspect gene would have been long ago eliminated for want of progeny. There is some research suggesting a relationship between exposure to androgens in vitro and homosexuality, but certainly not in all cases.

    Homosexual behavior is found among sea mammals and primates. In other words, homosexuality isn’t just limited to human beings.

    I dunno. Sometimes power differential is a component of sexuality. Sometimes sex is a component of power. So I am a little hesitant to sign onto what animals do for dominance as ‘sexuality’ per se.

    Male and female mallards pair together long enough so that the female mallard can lay its eggs and then the male mallard leaves the female mallard. Mallards have a high rate of homosexual activity.

    This isn’t me advocating that human beings behave like mallards. Just pointing out that we can’t blame the high rate of mallard homosexuality on woke education.

    But… if a group of scientists started studying a large group of mallards, interacting substantially with them as they did so, and rate suddenly zoomed upwards, it might not be an entirely insane idea to wonder if said interaction had something to do with it.

    • #98
  9. HeavyWater Inactive
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    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    TBA (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Doug Kimball (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Doug Kimball (View Comment):

    The only thing to be conerned about in all of this is the rise of people confused about what they are. This is proof that grooming is working.

    I’m really sceptical about this. If grooming worked I’d be straight, in fact there would be no gay men or lesbians (or bisexuals).

    Certainly some people are attracted inexorably, exclusively to their own sex. Why this is so is still something of a mystery, though there are some possible causes. It seems to me to be at least in part, developmental, at least among homosexual males. If it were genetic, the suspect gene would have been long ago eliminated for want of progeny. There is some research suggesting a relationship between exposure to androgens in vitro and homosexuality, but certainly not in all cases.

    Homosexual behavior is found among sea mammals and primates. In other words, homosexuality isn’t just limited to human beings.

    I dunno. Sometimes power differential is a component of sexuality. Sometimes sex is a component of power. So I am a little hesitant to sign onto what animals do for dominance as ‘sexuality’ per se.

    Male and female mallards pair together long enough so that the female mallard can lay its eggs and then the male mallard leaves the female mallard. Mallards have a high rate of homosexual activity.

    This isn’t me advocating that human beings behave like mallards. Just pointing out that we can’t blame the high rate of mallard homosexuality on woke education.

    But… if a group of scientists started studying a large group of mallards, interacting substantially with them as they did so, and rate suddenly zoomed upwards, it might not be an entirely insane idea to wonder if said interaction had something to do with it.

    Good point.  Maybe there was a flaw in the study design.  

    • #99
  10. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    TBA (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Doug Kimball (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Doug Kimball (View Comment):

    The only thing to be conerned about in all of this is the rise of people confused about what they are. This is proof that grooming is working.

    I’m really sceptical about this. If grooming worked I’d be straight, in fact there would be no gay men or lesbians (or bisexuals).

    Certainly some people are attracted inexorably, exclusively to their own sex. Why this is so is still something of a mystery, though there are some possible causes. It seems to me to be at least in part, developmental, at least among homosexual males. If it were genetic, the suspect gene would have been long ago eliminated for want of progeny. There is some research suggesting a relationship between exposure to androgens in vitro and homosexuality, but certainly not in all cases.

    Homosexual behavior is found among sea mammals and primates. In other words, homosexuality isn’t just limited to human beings.

    I dunno. Sometimes power differential is a component of sexuality. Sometimes sex is a component of power. So I am a little hesitant to sign onto what animals do for dominance as ‘sexuality’ per se.

    Male and female mallards pair together long enough so that the female mallard can lay its eggs and then the male mallard leaves the female mallard. Mallards have a high rate of homosexual activity.

    This isn’t me advocating that human beings behave like mallards. Just pointing out that we can’t blame the high rate of mallard homosexuality on woke education.

    But… if a group of scientists started studying a large group of mallards, interacting substantially with them as they did so, and rate suddenly zoomed upwards, it might not be an entirely insane idea to wonder if said interaction had something to do with it.

    Is this a new Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle?  You can know where someone is, or whether they’re homosexual, but not both?

    • #100
  11. HeavyWater Inactive
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    TBA (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Doug Kimball (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Doug Kimball (View Comment):

    The only thing to be conerned about in all of this is the rise of people confused about what they are. This is proof that grooming is working.

    I’m really sceptical about this. If grooming worked I’d be straight, in fact there would be no gay men or lesbians (or bisexuals).

    Certainly some people are attracted inexorably, exclusively to their own sex. Why this is so is still something of a mystery, though there are some possible causes. It seems to me to be at least in part, developmental, at least among homosexual males. If it were genetic, the suspect gene would have been long ago eliminated for want of progeny. There is some research suggesting a relationship between exposure to androgens in vitro and homosexuality, but certainly not in all cases.

    Homosexual behavior is found among sea mammals and primates. In other words, homosexuality isn’t just limited to human beings.

    I dunno. Sometimes power differential is a component of sexuality. Sometimes sex is a component of power. So I am a little hesitant to sign onto what animals do for dominance as ‘sexuality’ per se.

    Male and female mallards pair together long enough so that the female mallard can lay its eggs and then the male mallard leaves the female mallard. Mallards have a high rate of homosexual activity.

    This isn’t me advocating that human beings behave like mallards. Just pointing out that we can’t blame the high rate of mallard homosexuality on woke education.

    But… if a group of scientists started studying a large group of mallards, interacting substantially with them as they did so, and rate suddenly zoomed upwards, it might not be an entirely insane idea to wonder if said interaction had something to do with it.

    Is this a new Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle? You can know where someone is, or whether they’re homosexual, but not both?

    What’s needed is a study design that is double-blinded and with placebos.  I haven’t figured out the details just yet.  

    • #101
  12. Judge Mental Member
    Judge Mental
    @JudgeMental

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    TBA (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Doug Kimball (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Doug Kimball (View Comment):

    The only thing to be conerned about in all of this is the rise of people confused about what they are. This is proof that grooming is working.

    I’m really sceptical about this. If grooming worked I’d be straight, in fact there would be no gay men or lesbians (or bisexuals).

    Certainly some people are attracted inexorably, exclusively to their own sex. Why this is so is still something of a mystery, though there are some possible causes. It seems to me to be at least in part, developmental, at least among homosexual males. If it were genetic, the suspect gene would have been long ago eliminated for want of progeny. There is some research suggesting a relationship between exposure to androgens in vitro and homosexuality, but certainly not in all cases.

    Homosexual behavior is found among sea mammals and primates. In other words, homosexuality isn’t just limited to human beings.

    I dunno. Sometimes power differential is a component of sexuality. Sometimes sex is a component of power. So I am a little hesitant to sign onto what animals do for dominance as ‘sexuality’ per se.

    Male and female mallards pair together long enough so that the female mallard can lay its eggs and then the male mallard leaves the female mallard. Mallards have a high rate of homosexual activity.

    This isn’t me advocating that human beings behave like mallards. Just pointing out that we can’t blame the high rate of mallard homosexuality on woke education.

    But… if a group of scientists started studying a large group of mallards, interacting substantially with them as they did so, and rate suddenly zoomed upwards, it might not be an entirely insane idea to wonder if said interaction had something to do with it.

    Is this a new Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle? You can know where someone is, or whether they’re homosexual, but not both?

    What’s needed is a study design that is double-blinded and with placebos. I haven’t figured out the details just yet.

    And ten thousand sets of parents to volunteer their children to be experimented upon.

    • #102
  13. HeavyWater Inactive
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

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    Judge Mental (View Comment):

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    Doug Kimball (View Comment):

    The only thing to be conerned about in all of this is the rise of people confused about what they are. This is proof that grooming is working.

    I’m really sceptical about this. If grooming worked I’d be straight, in fact there would be no gay men or lesbians (or bisexuals).

    Certainly some people are attracted inexorably, exclusively to their own sex. Why this is so is still something of a mystery, though there are some possible causes. It seems to me to be at least in part, developmental, at least among homosexual males. If it were genetic, the suspect gene would have been long ago eliminated for want of progeny. There is some research suggesting a relationship between exposure to androgens in vitro and homosexuality, but certainly not in all cases.

    Homosexual behavior is found among sea mammals and primates. In other words, homosexuality isn’t just limited to human beings.

    I dunno. Sometimes power differential is a component of sexuality. Sometimes sex is a component of power. So I am a little hesitant to sign onto what animals do for dominance as ‘sexuality’ per se.

    Male and female mallards pair together long enough so that the female mallard can lay its eggs and then the male mallard leaves the female mallard. Mallards have a high rate of homosexual activity.

    This isn’t me advocating that human beings behave like mallards. Just pointing out that we can’t blame the high rate of mallard homosexuality on woke education.

    But… if a group of scientists started studying a large group of mallards, interacting substantially with them as they did so, and rate suddenly zoomed upwards, it might not be an entirely insane idea to wonder if said interaction had something to do with it.

    Is this a new Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle? You can know where someone is, or whether they’re homosexual, but not both?

    What’s needed is a study design that is double-blinded and with placebos. I haven’t figured out the details just yet.

    And ten thousand sets of parents to volunteer their children to be experimented upon.

    I am looking for ten thousand mallards, but no volunteers just yet.  

    • #103
  14. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    TheRightNurse (View Comment):

    There aren’t a lot of long term stats on this.

    Thank you for your response.  Seems like we would need some stats, given the level and tone of advocacy and resistance?

     So many people in the de-transitioned community repeat that over and over.  They thought that HRT would fix things.  They thought that they’d feel better if they looked like they imagined.  But they couldn’t *be* the other gender, not completely.  Transmen couldn’t father children.  Transwomen couldn’t give birth.  They looked the part, but they were not, fully, the part they wanted (or how they perceived it would be, really).

    So the problem was they wanted things they couldn’t have – and weren’t able to deal with this early on without ‘pathologising’ it as a medical issue? 

    Wrt transition/detransition, I don’t know how QA’d this study is, but:

    A total of 27 studies, pooling 7928 transgender patients who underwent any type of GAS, were included. The pooled prevalence of regret after GAS was 1% (95% CI <1%–2%). Overall, 33% underwent transmasculine procedures and 67% transfemenine procedures. The prevalence of regret among patients undergoing transmasculine and transfemenine surgeries was <1% (IC <1%–<1%) and 1% (CI <1%–2%), respectively….

    Based on this review, there is an extremely low prevalence of regret in transgender patients after GAS. We believe this study corroborates the improvements made in regard to selection criteria for GAS. However, there is high subjectivity in the assessment of regret and lack of standardized questionnaires, which highlight the importance of developing validated questionnaires in this population.

    This article had a different perspective, both in terms of numbers:

    The 2015 U.S. Transgender Survey (page 111)—the most recent available because of the pandemic—claims that 11% of female respondents reverted back to their original sex. Transgender men had a reversion rate of 4%. Those who chose to revert cited a variety of reasons. Five percent of those who detransitioned realized that a gender transition was not what they wanted. Other people cited family pressure and difficulty getting a job as reasons to detransition.

    But also:

    Medical News also tells the story of a woman named Ruby who had undergone testosterone therapy and lived as a male. However, she changed her mind about transitioning to a male before she was scheduled to have surgery to remove her breasts. Ruby states: “I didn’t think any change was going to be enough in the end and I thought it was better to work on changing how I felt about myself, than changing my body. I’ve seen similarities in the way I experience gender dysphoria, in the way I experience other body image issues.”

    Which seems like it’s an important anecdotal point.

    • #104
  15. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    TheRightNurse (View Comment):

    I wanted to point out that bisexuality is often considered “soft gay” for men in particular. Even as said on this thread, “oh they’re just gay and don’t want to admit it”.

    That actually was true for a lot of gay men’s coming out process.  A lot of gay men carry that with them and universalise their own experience unfairly.  There is a ‘lesbian till graduation’ aspect to how bi men are perceived.

    This is part of the problem. It isn’t just the hetero folks that say that, it’s also the gay folks. Gay men in particular can put a lot of pressure on men to identify as gay, rather than bisexual, and that any attraction to men is automatically gay (even if somewhat attracted to women). There’s a lot of pressure in the younger generations, as well, to identify as gay because there’s a whole gay culture for men. Not so much a group of bisexual men to circle the wagons.

    But tell me again why bi men need gay men’s approval?

    Coming out as gay doesn’t depend on getting straight people’s approval, that’s not the point.

    How is coming out as bi different?

    There’s no “bi culture” to speak of.

    Gay men and lesbians didn’t create gay/lesbian culture(s) as some kind of elaborate hobby.  We did it because we needed it (community), and we needed it because we couldn’t ‘pass as straight’ enough to get by without damaging ourselves.

    Is that the case for bi people as well – or let’s be specific, for bi men as well? My suspicion is that if it was they’d create a culture and community to fill that need.

    I know a few bisexual men. And I know some gay men that I would classify as being bisexual. But culturally, they’re “gay” and are in a permanent homosexual relationship. They’re attracted to women and have slept with more than a few women.

    But in gay culture that’s just their self-hatred and personal denial, rather than something they liked and enjoyed at the time and might also still enjoy…if it weren’t verboten by their peer groups.

    Ha! If they really like it I bet they still do it.  (Or they definitely would if they were gay, wait, this is not the formulation I wanted….)

    It’s the other side of  married men who have sex with men (‘she’s my wife, he’s just sex’) but definitely don’t see themselves as gay.

     

    • #105
  16. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Zafar (View Comment):

    TheRightNurse (View Comment):

    There aren’t a lot of long term stats on this.

    Thank you for your response. Seems like we would need some stats, given the level and tone of advocacy and resistance?

    So many people in the de-transitioned community repeat that over and over. They thought that HRT would fix things. They thought that they’d feel better if they looked like they imagined. But they couldn’t *be* the other gender, not completely. Transmen couldn’t father children. Transwomen couldn’t give birth. They looked the part, but they were not, fully, the part they wanted (or how they perceived it would be, really).

    So the problem was they wanted things they couldn’t have – and weren’t able to deal with this early on without ‘pathologising’ it as a medical issue?

    Wrt transition/detransition, I don’t know how QA’d this study is, but:

    A total of 27 studies, pooling 7928 transgender patients who underwent any type of GAS, were included. The pooled prevalence of regret after GAS was 1% (95% CI <1%–2%). Overall, 33% underwent transmasculine procedures and 67% transfemenine procedures. The prevalence of regret among patients undergoing transmasculine and transfemenine surgeries was <1% (IC <1%–<1%) and 1% (CI <1%–2%), respectively….

    Based on this review, there is an extremely low prevalence of regret in transgender patients after GAS. We believe this study corroborates the improvements made in regard to selection criteria for GAS. However, there is high subjectivity in the assessment of regret and lack of standardized questionnaires, which highlight the importance of developing validated questionnaires in this population.

    This article had a different perspective, both in terms of numbers:

    The 2015 U.S. Transgender Survey (page 111)—the most recent available because of the pandemic—claims that 11% of female respondents reverted back to their original sex. Transgender men had a reversion rate of 4%. Those who chose to revert cited a variety of reasons. Five percent of those who detransitioned realized that a gender transition was not what they wanted. Other people cited family pressure and difficulty getting a job as reasons to detransition.

    But also:

    Medical News also tells the story of a woman named Ruby who had undergone testosterone therapy and lived as a male. However, she changed her mind about transitioning to a male before she was scheduled to have surgery to remove her breasts. Ruby states: “I didn’t think any change was going to be enough in the end and I thought it was better to work on changing how I felt about myself, than changing my body. I’ve seen similarities in the way I experience gender dysphoria, in the way I experience other body image issues.”

    Which seems like it’s an important anecdotal point.

    I would also want more details about how long after surgery these people reported being “satisfied.”  If the “regret” rate is so low, why still so many suicides?

    • #106
  17. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    HeavyWater (View Comment):
    This isn’t me advocating that human beings behave like mallards.  Just pointing out that we can’t blame the high rate of mallard homosexuality on woke education.  

    I blame the woke.  I’ve got my outrage flag flying, don’t rain on my parade!

    • #107
  18. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    kedavis (View Comment):
    I would also want more details about how long after surgery these people reported being “satisfied.”  If the “regret” rate is so low, why still so many suicides?

    How many suicides is a good question.

    • #108
  19. hoowitts Coolidge
    hoowitts
    @hoowitts

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Ruby states: “I didn’t think any change was going to be enough in the end and I thought it was better to work on changing how I felt about myself, than changing my body. I’ve seen similarities in the way I experience gender dysphoria, in the way I experience other body image issues.

    Which seems like it’s an important anecdotal point.

    This…and it is much more than anecdotal. The current default gender-affirmation position to neglect biological, physiological and teleological evidence and leans toward elevating psychological self-perception. It is at best anti-intellectual, at worst is maliciously ideological.

    Ruby expresses a perspective that is currently persona non grata among both professionals and the culture at large.

    • #109
  20. Gary McVey Contributor
    Gary McVey
    @GaryMcVey

    Zafar (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    I would also want more details about how long after surgery these people reported being “satisfied.” If the “regret” rate is so low, why still so many suicides?

    How many suicides is a good question.

    One of the dilemmas of talking about LG issues, let alone BT issues, is figuring out who to believe. Social conservatives flat-out don’t trust the so-called authorities in the psychiatric and medical fields. Of course, the experts then go out of their way to prove themselves blatantly biased. We’re left with our own anecdotes to go by, and let’s face it, that’s not good enough. So I’ll tell you the truth, and so will Annefy, and we’ll both be sincere, and our “truths” contradict each other. 

    • #110
  21. HeavyWater Inactive
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

    Zafar (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):
    This isn’t me advocating that human beings behave like mallards. Just pointing out that we can’t blame the high rate of mallard homosexuality on woke education.

    I blame the woke. I’ve got my outrage flag flying, don’t rain on my parade!

    Cue the youtube video where some Lefty schoolteacher is coaching mallards on sexuality, before second grade!

    • #111
  22. Ed G. Member
    Ed G.
    @EdG

    Fake John/Jane Galt (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    My sceptical side sees this as the equivalent of SSM as a political issue that galvanises both bases. Do you recall all those claims that SSM would undermine marriage – what, even, would marriage mean? But SSM happened and people woke up the next day and realised it hadn’t changed their own marriages at all. What a nothing burger that turned out to be.

    You are wrong on that. Nobody thought it would fall apart the next day. Just lose its value and people think it was valuable. They were right, we now have SSM and nobody even cares to argue about it anymore. Why should they? It’s gone.

    In fact transgenderism and SSM are close analogs. We have a biological reality so fundamental and important and impactful that we recognize it socially via formal institutions. Both SSM and trans turn that dynamic inside out, either prioritizing the preferred social recognition and forcing reality to fit or denying and destroying the underlying reality so that only the social is left. If there is no underlying reality then the recognition doesn’t make sense and can only lead to devaluation and/or compelled value. So here we are, gender identity is now supposedly individual yet the rest of us must accept and respect this self conception as if there were no underlying reality or alternate perceptions of our own.

    • #112
  23. HeavyWater Inactive
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

    Ed G. (View Comment):

    Fake John/Jane Galt (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    My sceptical side sees this as the equivalent of SSM as a political issue that galvanises both bases. Do you recall all those claims that SSM would undermine marriage – what, even, would marriage mean? But SSM happened and people woke up the next day and realised it hadn’t changed their own marriages at all. What a nothing burger that turned out to be.

    You are wrong on that. Nobody thought it would fall apart the next day. Just lose its value and people think it was valuable. They were right, we now have SSM and nobody even cares to argue about it anymore. Why should they? It’s gone.

    In fact transgenderism and SSM are close analogs. We have a biological reality so fundamental and important and impactful that we recognize it socially via formal institutions. Both SSM and trans turn that dynamic inside out, either prioritizing the preferred social recognition and forcing reality to fit or denying and destroying the underlying reality so that only the social is left. If there is no underlying reality then the recognition doesn’t make sense and can only lead to devaluation and/or compelled value. So here we are, gender identity is now supposedly individual yet the rest of us must accept and respect this self conception as if there were no underlying reality or alternate perceptions of our own.

    I think one of the main reasons why same sex marriage became widely supported was that numerous people had sons, daughters, brothers, sisters, cousins, aunts and uncles and friends who were homosexual.  People who weren’t homosexual starting thinking that our society was treating homosexuals badly and wanted to correct this.  

    But a homosexual doesn’t need surgery or powerful medications in order to be homosexual whereas at least some subset of transgender people are supposedly like a fish out of water if they don’t have surgery to modify their body parts or take powerful drugs to prevent puberty.  

    • #113
  24. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):
    This isn’t me advocating that human beings behave like mallards. Just pointing out that we can’t blame the high rate of mallard homosexuality on woke education.

    I blame the woke. I’ve got my outrage flag flying, don’t rain on my parade!

    Cue the youtube video where some Lefty schoolteacher is coaching mallards on sexuality, before second grade!

    The strange case of the homosexual necrophiliac duck pushed out the boundaries of knowledge in a rather improbable way when it was recorded by Dutch researcher Kees Moeliker.

    • #114
  25. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Gary McVey (View Comment):
    One of the dilemmas of talking about LG issues, let alone BT issues, is figuring out who to believe. Social conservatives flat-out don’t trust the so-called authorities in the psychiatric and medical fields. Of course, the experts then go out of their way to prove themselves blatantly biased. We’re left with our own anecdotes to go by, and let’s face it, that’s not good enough. So I’ll tell you the truth, and so will Annefy, and we’ll both be sincere, and our “truths” contradict each other.

    Well said. There should be space for contradictory true anecdotes on Ricochet, and as there should generally be in life.

    • #115
  26. HeavyWater Inactive
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Gary McVey (View Comment):
    One of the dilemmas of talking about LG issues, let alone BT issues, is figuring out who to believe. Social conservatives flat-out don’t trust the so-called authorities in the psychiatric and medical fields. Of course, the experts then go out of their way to prove themselves blatantly biased. We’re left with our own anecdotes to go by, and let’s face it, that’s not good enough. So I’ll tell you the truth, and so will Annefy, and we’ll both be sincere, and our “truths” contradict each other.

    Well said. There should be space for contradictory true anecdotes on Ricochet, and there should generally be in life.

    I know two gay men who have been together longer than my wife and I have been together.  I have a hard time believing that either of them made a conscious choice to be homosexual rather than heterosexual.  Also, I don’t think society would be better off if these two men had to keep their homosexuality “in the closet.”  

     

    • #116
  27. Gary McVey Contributor
    Gary McVey
    @GaryMcVey

    Zafar (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):
    This isn’t me advocating that human beings behave like mallards. Just pointing out that we can’t blame the high rate of mallard homosexuality on woke education.

    I blame the woke. I’ve got my outrage flag flying, don’t rain on my parade!

    Cue the youtube video where some Lefty schoolteacher is coaching mallards on sexuality, before second grade!

    The strange case of the homosexual necrophiliac duck pushed out the boundaries of knowledge in a rather improbable way when it was recorded by Dutch researcher Kees Moeliker.

    Thufferin’ Thuckotash!

    • #117
  28. Ed G. Member
    Ed G.
    @EdG

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Ed G. (View Comment):

    Fake John/Jane Galt (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    My sceptical side sees this as the equivalent of SSM as a political issue that galvanises both bases. Do you recall all those claims that SSM would undermine marriage – what, even, would marriage mean? But SSM happened and people woke up the next day and realised it hadn’t changed their own marriages at all. What a nothing burger that turned out to be.

    You are wrong on that. Nobody thought it would fall apart the next day. Just lose its value and people think it was valuable. They were right, we now have SSM and nobody even cares to argue about it anymore. Why should they? It’s gone.

    In fact transgenderism and SSM are close analogs. We have a biological reality so fundamental and important and impactful that we recognize it socially via formal institutions. Both SSM and trans turn that dynamic inside out, either prioritizing the preferred social recognition and forcing reality to fit or denying and destroying the underlying reality so that only the social is left. If there is no underlying reality then the recognition doesn’t make sense and can only lead to devaluation and/or compelled value. So here we are, gender identity is now supposedly individual yet the rest of us must accept and respect this self conception as if there were no underlying reality or alternate perceptions of our own.

    I think one of the main reasons why same sex marriage became widely supported was that numerous people had sons, daughters, brothers, sisters, cousins, aunts and uncles and friends who were homosexual. People who weren’t homosexual starting thinking that our society was treating homosexuals badly and wanted to correct this.

    I think it became successful because civil marriage was already severely damaged and few could even conceive of what it once meant let alone actually make that argument in the face of opposition who once again manged to conflate opposition to SSM with opposition to homosexuality. That dynamic is afoot again, except that most of us don’t need a to be convinced that men and women are different and so it’s more difficult to broadly villainize the recalcitrants. So far. That, I fear, won’t last any more than the prior conception of civil marriage lasted. The precedent has been set in our society time and again: the whole must affirm the individual.

    • #118
  29. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Ed G. (View Comment):
    I think it became successful because civil marriage was already severely damaged and few could even conceive of what it once meant let alone actually make that argument in the face of opposition who once again manged to conflate opposition to SSM with opposition to homosexuality.

    To be fair, opposition to SSM was often paired with religion based disapproval of homosexuality, so there was some overlap.

    And the (grudging) ‘I don’t care what people do in the privacy of their own homes’ only really emerged as a voice on Right when people realised that ISIS was killing gay men by throwing them off buildings, and the antisodomy attitudes were suddenly off brand.

    • #119
  30. TheRightNurse Member
    TheRightNurse
    @TheRightNurse

    Zafar (View Comment):

    TheRightNurse (View Comment):

    There aren’t a lot of long term stats on this.

    Thank you for your response. Seems like we would need some stats, given the level and tone of advocacy and resistance?

    So many people in the de-transitioned community repeat that over and over. They thought that HRT would fix things. They thought that they’d feel better if they looked like they imagined. But they couldn’t *be* the other gender, not completely. Transmen couldn’t father children. Transwomen couldn’t give birth. They looked the part, but they were not, fully, the part they wanted (or how they perceived it would be, really).

    So the problem was they wanted things they couldn’t have – and weren’t able to deal with this early on without ‘pathologising’ it as a medical issue?

    Wrt transition/detransition, I don’t know how QA’d this study is, but:

     

    You should read the corrected article:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9049036/

    It was corrected in 2022.  The various charts included reasons for de-transition, many of which included things that I’ve already mentioned (dissatisfaction with their lives, not truly making them feel how they wanted, etc).  But the numbers being looked at in each study were around…1 or 3.  These numbers are so low, it’s so difficult to speak too broadly about it (in the scientific sense).  Anecdotally, we can say whatever.

    But really, this has completely derailed the original post.  Perhaps we need to go somewhere else for that.

    • #120
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