Defend a Maligned Movie

 

I don’t believe in “guilty pleasures” – why should I feel guilt because the critical groupthink scorned something I think has merit? It’s not as if those individual critics don’t pull the shades and watch something the rest of the priesthood demeans. (Unless Marty Scorcese gave it a nod in an interview, and then it’s time for a Fresh New Look.) I also don’t believe in watching bad movies to revel in their awfulness, unless there’s some meta-level payoff. (Plan Nine really is the apotheosis of true unintended hilarity.) I’m watching something right now that makes eyes roll if you try to make the case for its importance, but that’s not important right now. (No, I’m not watching Airplane!) I’ll hand it off to you: defend a movie dismissed by the gatekeepers.

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  1. Miffed White Male Member
    Miffed White Male
    @MiffedWhiteMale

    Pagodan (View Comment):
    I think the problem is back in the 80’s we were watching this on a small tube tv with crappy color and a worn out speaker for sound. No one is gonna like a movie like this on that set-up. As and adult I went back and watched it with a large screen HD tv, decent sound system and speakers, and it was a whole new movie.

    Saw it in the theater when it first came out.

    Nope.

     

    In fact, it was a first or second date movie with a girl I had a huge thing for.  She fell asleep.

    She still went out with me for the better part of a year.

    • #91
  2. navyjag Coolidge
    navyjag
    @navyjag

    So I guess everyone like “Animal House”, huh?

    • #92
  3. James Hageman Coolidge
    James Hageman
    @JamesHageman

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):

    I’ve only seen it once, many years ago, so I can’t vouch for it directly, but my brother insists that Ishtar is a really funny movie.

    So Miffed White Male is either Dustin Hoffman or Warren Beatty.

    • #93
  4. James Hageman Coolidge
    James Hageman
    @JamesHageman

    I like Big Trouble (not in Little China). 

    • #94
  5. lowtech redneck Coolidge
    lowtech redneck
    @lowtech redneck

    Speaking of Warren Beatty, Dick Tracy: its a color-coated film noir with great special effects and delightfully hammy acting.  It should be better remembered.

    • #95
  6. lowtech redneck Coolidge
    lowtech redneck
    @lowtech redneck

    I also like League of Extraordinary Gentlemen; I never really got the hate, the premise was good and the portrayals were entertaining.

    • #96
  7. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    James Hageman (View Comment):

    I like Big Trouble (not in Little China).

    Big Trouble in Little China is one of my favorites.

    Just remember what ol’ Jack Burton does when the earth quakes, and the poison arrows fall from the sky, and the pillars of Heaven shake. Yeah, Jack Burton just looks that big ol’ storm right square in the eye and he says, “Give me your best shot, pal. I can take it.

    • #97
  8. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    How about Showdown In Little Tokyo?  Other than the obvious body double for Tia Carrere, it’s entertaining.

    • #98
  9. Dad Dog Member
    Dad Dog
    @DadDog

    philo (View Comment):

    Not so much maligned as just ignored…I still think Hostiles (2017) is the best movie ever seen by only me and three other people:

    It is a hard movie. (As the credits rolled my wife turned to me and threatened to slap me when we got to the parking lot for taking her to it on “date night.”) The characters are hard. The subjects are hard. The interactions are hard. (It will drain you by the end.) But the backdrop for the journey is the American West at its most beautiful. (There is a 1-2 second clip of the group photo scene before the “parade” that is my favorite part of any movie ever.) Plus it has Christian Bale and Ben Foster in it. Great movie.

    Absolutely agree.  Should have been a Best Picture nominee.

    • #99
  10. JosePluma Coolidge
    JosePluma
    @JosePluma

    JimGoneWild (View Comment):

    OK, it must said, Paint Your Wagon is an awesome movie and Clint Eastwood’s singing is pretty good too.

    And it inspired an awesome Simpsons parody:

    • #100
  11. It's TGS with Cat III! Member
    It's TGS with Cat III!
    @CatIII

    Front Seat Cat (View Comment):

    I think all movies should be preserved, as art as well as historical value, and that includes anything that would be considered racially charged (today that would be just about anything). It would also include movies by people who have been in trouble and convicted, actors and directors. That includes books too – no censoring.

    As far as some of the really bad ones, TCM had an old sci-fi movie on a few weeks ago from the early 1960’s I think, maybe late 50’s, that was deemed ‘the worst movie ever made’, so naturally we were intrigued. It was so bad I can’t even remember the name of it…..Ha! The flying saucers really looked like hubcaps, and the aliens were creating zombies that killed people, something like that. I didn’t think the acting was that bad, except for this one cop, who seemed to keep pausing when it was his turn to talk, like he was trying to remember his lines.

    Plan 9 from Outer Space isn’t a bad movie. It’s good in ways exactly opposite of Ed Wood’s intentions, but that doesn’t make it any less entertaining. If you want to see a truly bad movie, just watch one of Wood’s unknown films. Total slogs.

    If you want his masterpiece watch Glen or Glenda. It’s an avant garde headtrip. Wood throws all narrative and filmmaking conventions off a cliff, resulting in an afterschool special as envisioned by Kenneth Anger. Bela Lugosi was actually alive when they filmed this one and his scenes are something else. I’d say you need to see them to believe, but I’m not sure even that will do. I laughed harder and longer at Glen or Glenda than I have at most supposed comedies. It’s also worth noting the film was made in a time when its progressive view of crossdressing (Wood notoriously enjoyed wearing pink angora) was actually brave, and not just purported to be by every prominent public institution.

    Ed Wood, the 90s biopic, is fantastic. Possibly Tim Burton’s best and sadly the last good thing he attached his name to.

    • #101
  12. Hartmann von Aue Member
    Hartmann von Aue
    @HartmannvonAue

    I will put a good word in for Otto Preminger’s In Harm’s Way .  It gets slammed for bad pacing, and for the fact that Kirk Douglas’ charming rogue character actually rapes a nurse, driving her to commit suicide, then commits suicide himself. I find that tragic element to the film entirely within the bounds of western literary canon. Then there is the reconciliation between John Wayne’s Admiral Rock Torrey and his estranged son (who also dies). It’s quite underrated. 

    • #102
  13. Hartmann von Aue Member
    Hartmann von Aue
    @HartmannvonAue

    OccupantCDN (View Comment):

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):

    Boney Cole (View Comment):

    Galaxy Quest. Really love the beginning at the convention. So real it hurts while I’m laughing. Can’t watch, can’t quit watching.

    No one maligns this movie. It’s a recognized classic.

    Agreed. Rotten has it at 90/79. When the critic and audience scores are so high – this is a recognized Gem.

    I think the only people a little upset with it, where Star Trek fans, because it does parody them quite heavily.

     

    I’m a Star Trek fan and all the other ST fans I know also love Galaxy Quest. Was sich liebt, neckt sich. If you love it, you can laugh at it. 

    • #103
  14. Hartmann von Aue Member
    Hartmann von Aue
    @HartmannvonAue

    KirkianWanderer (View Comment):

    Percival (View Comment):

    OccupantCDN (View Comment):

    Pagodan (View Comment):

    Which leads me to a second movie, that while much maligned, is actually a solid “Good” movie. “Star Trek: The Motion Picture”. My only real complaint is that some of that cool mid-century modern kitsch from the 60’s became earth toned 70’s cheesiness, with goofy jumpsuits (bleh). I remember being bored and hating it as a kid (I grew up on all things Star Trek), but I think the problem is back in the 80’s we were watching this on a small tube tv with crappy color and a worn out speaker for sound. No one is gonna like a movie like this on that set-up. As and adult I went back and watched it with a large screen HD tv, decent sound system and speakers, and it was a whole new movie.

    Great effects, great Star Trek wonder, and the TOS cast is always great.

    STMP could have been much better. Its a grind to watch. Its way too long at 2h12m it should have been at most 100 minutes. (star trek ii Wrath of kahn, a much better film, is 1h53m long) there just isnt enough plot to fill the whole 2 hours…

    When they ran the exact same plot on TOS, it only took 38 minutes with commercial breaks.

    Much less CGI, too, and more dogs with glitter horns strapped on their heads.

    There was no CGI when ST:TMP was made. That’s all model and backscreen projection work. 

    • #104
  15. Hartmann von Aue Member
    Hartmann von Aue
    @HartmannvonAue

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Percival (View Comment):

    OccupantCDN (View Comment):

    Pagodan (View Comment):

    Which leads me to a second movie, that while much maligned, is actually a solid “Good” movie. “Star Trek: The Motion Picture”. My only real complaint is that some of that cool mid-century modern kitsch from the 60’s became earth toned 70’s cheesiness, with goofy jumpsuits (bleh). I remember being bored and hating it as a kid (I grew up on all things Star Trek), but I think the problem is back in the 80’s we were watching this on a small tube tv with crappy color and a worn out speaker for sound. No one is gonna like a movie like this on that set-up. As and adult I went back and watched it with a large screen HD tv, decent sound system and speakers, and it was a whole new movie.

    Great effects, great Star Trek wonder, and the TOS cast is always great.

    STMP could have been much better. Its a grind to watch. Its way too long at 2h12m it should have been at most 100 minutes. (star trek ii Wrath of kahn, a much better film, is 1h53m long) there just isnt enough plot to fill the whole 2 hours…

    When they ran the exact same plot on TOS, it only took 38 minutes with commercial breaks.

    Uh, no. Back when TOS was on, an hour TV episode had something like 50 minutes or more of actual show. It’s only been in the last several years that an “hour” has become at little as 40 minutes or even less.

    But that said, there’s a reason why TMP is sometimes referred to as “Where Nomad Has Gone Before.”

    Keeping in mind that there was originally planned to be a new series, and then got reworked into a movie.

    Correct. The plan was for it to be a pilot, which makes The Changeling; The Movie more understandable. Also if I recall  the novelization, which was drawn from the original script, correctly, they were planning on making much more of the fact that Will Decker was Matt Decker’s son. And we got Riker and Troi, take one, with him and Ilia.  

    • #105
  16. MARTIN WORNATH Coolidge
    MARTIN WORNATH
    @ManOfTheWest

    I think “The Santa Clause 2” is a very good Christmas movie – maybe even better than the first “The Santa Clause”. 

    • #106
  17. MARTIN WORNATH Coolidge
    MARTIN WORNATH
    @ManOfTheWest

    Hartmann von Aue (View Comment):

    KirkianWanderer (View Comment):

    Percival (View Comment):

    OccupantCDN (View Comment):

    Pagodan (View Comment):

    Which leads me to a second movie, that while much maligned, is actually a solid “Good” movie. “Star Trek: The Motion Picture”. My only real complaint is that some of that cool mid-century modern kitsch from the 60’s became earth toned 70’s cheesiness, with goofy jumpsuits (bleh). I remember being bored and hating it as a kid (I grew up on all things Star Trek), but I think the problem is back in the 80’s we were watching this on a small tube tv with crappy color and a worn out speaker for sound. No one is gonna like a movie like this on that set-up. As and adult I went back and watched it with a large screen HD tv, decent sound system and speakers, and it was a whole new movie.

    Great effects, great Star Trek wonder, and the TOS cast is always great.

    STMP could have been much better. Its a grind to watch. Its way too long at 2h12m it should have been at most 100 minutes. (star trek ii Wrath of kahn, a much better film, is 1h53m long) there just isnt enough plot to fill the whole 2 hours…

    When they ran the exact same plot on TOS, it only took 38 minutes with commercial breaks.

    Much less CGI, too, and more dogs with glitter horns strapped on their heads.

    There was no CGI when ST:TMP was made. That’s all model and backscreen projection work.

    Yes! I think the first Star Trek – Star Trek the Motion Picture – is one of the better Star Trek movies.  “Wrath of Khan” is great, but is not that enjoyable after you see it the first time.  But for me, the first Star Trek movie gets better with multiple viewings. 

    • #107
  18. MARTIN WORNATH Coolidge
    MARTIN WORNATH
    @ManOfTheWest

    OccupantCDN (View Comment):

    How about “Battleship” its got all the things that make action movies great – guns, big really big guns, explosions, special effects montague of cities being destroyed, high body count, a seemingly invincible villain. And taking place in Hawaii some striking scenery in the back drop.

    Its not a deep thinker – but its a lot of fun, with great visual effects and a sound track that includes AC/DC “ThunderStruck”… What more do you need?

    Yes!  I think the last 30 minutes of “Battleship” is awesome – the way they took that giant old battleship out of mothballs.

    • #108
  19. It's TGS with Cat III! Member
    It's TGS with Cat III!
    @CatIII

    Maligned and forgotten, Observe and Report (51% critic score and 37% audience score on Rottentomatoes) deserves a lot more respect for it’s dark comedic genius. At the time it was mostly regarded as the other mall cop movie. Besides also being a comedy about a stocky mall cop loser, Observe and Report couldn’t be any more different from Paul Blart. Director Jody Hill treads the same territory he explored with his debut indie hit, The Foot Fist Way (another solid movie, though better regarded). Again the movie follows a down-on-his-luck nobody with dreams of a better life. The plot adheres to the typical structure of Hollywood flicks about such characters, except Seth Rogen plays a deranged man who’s probably mentally ill and definitely dangerous. He’s not an anti-hero, he’s just a terrible person. Pitiable at best. A lot of the humor arises from the plot progressing as if we’re supposed to be sympathetic to someone the audience and the movie is aware doesn’t deserve it.

    The movie also scores major points by including two Queen songs and they’re not one of the two dozen or so choices you’d expect. One is “It’s Late” one of their best tracks, and the best cut from News of the World.

    It’s not a perfect film. It’s also not for everyone. That R rating is well earned.

    • #109
  20. Gary McVey Contributor
    Gary McVey
    @GaryMcVey

    Hartmann von Aue (View Comment):

    And we got Riker and Troi, take one, with him and Ilia.

    That’s very true and I never saw it before. TMP wasn’t an off-the-lot, overseas, semi-independent production like Star Wars and Close Encounters of the Third Kind. It was an in-house production of studio-owned material, filmed right on the lot by experienced old pros, led by the director of The Day the Earth Stood Still nearly thirty years earlier. It wasn’t filmed in an improvised studio in an Alabama blimp hangar like the climactic scenes of CE3K; TMP’s special effects weren’t done by a bunch of twenty-five year old stoners in the San Fernando Valley, as Lucas’s were. A Star Trek film should have been an easy layup for Paramount. But they let the time slip away inefficiently and they hired Robert Abel, late, to supervise the visual effects. On paper, this wasn’t a bad idea. Abel was a respected expert who’d accomplished amazing things for TV commercials, short films, and brief scenes in longer films. But this was a production line job with more than 100 shots to complete. They should have gone with someone who’d worked on this massive organizing scale before. He fell behind. Well, so had John Dykstra on Star Wars. Abel went over budget. But then, so did Doug Trumbull on Close Encounters. 

    It is still remembered as one of the most last minute of edit-and-release jobs in Hollywood history. By then, they’d had to go ahead and OK composition of music before they had actual shots; then the pace of the locked-in music dictated the use of every foot of every exterior shot made of the Enterprise in space dock. 

    But does it have its charms? You bet. 

    Yeah, the uniforms are pretty dopey. 

    • #110
  21. JosePluma Coolidge
    JosePluma
    @JosePluma

    Some of these have already been mentioned, but this is a favorite topic of mine.  If I were ever to win the Ricochet Movie Fight Club (Ha!), this would be my question.

    Starship Troopers (70% audience score on Rotten Tomatoes; critics score:  who cares?)  Not my favorite Heinlein novel, but I did have the board game:

    When I saw the movie in the theater, I hated it.  I thought Verhoeven got it completely wrong, missing the point of the book.  On further viewings, I realized that was the whole point.  It’s a brilliant and subtle satire.

    The Last Action Hero  (47% audience score on Rotten Tomatoes.)  A hilarious spoof of just about every detective/cop/thriller movie with Easter eggs in almost every scene.  Yes, it has a cartoon cat, and, no, the cartoon cat doesn’t work, but the rest of the film is wonderful.  As the late, great Mike Royko pointed out, it’s not a film for the stupid.

    Mars Attacks  (54% audience score on Rotten Tomatoes.)  Deliberately stupid and over the top, this is the perfect comic book movie.  Lately, the movie-watching public seems to have the delusion that comic books are great literature.  They’re not, they’re garish and dumb, and Mars Attacks revels in it.

    Pennies From Heaven (65% audience score on Rotten Tomatoes.)  This movie bombed partially because it had Steve Martin as the lead and people thought it was a comedy.  It is, but the blackest of dark comedies imaginable, à la Brazil.

    Actually, I am surprised that these films have rated so high on RT.  Their reputations seem to have improved with age.

    Now, let’s look at films with good reputations that are actually pretty bad. . .

     

    • #111
  22. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Gary McVey (View Comment):
    Yeah, the uniforms are pretty dopey.

    At least they made more sense than all the parka-like stuff in the later movies.  What, starships don’t have heat?

    • #112
  23. Hartmann von Aue Member
    Hartmann von Aue
    @HartmannvonAue

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Gary McVey (View Comment):
    Yeah, the uniforms are pretty dopey.

    At least they made more sense than all the parka-like stuff in the later movies. What, starships don’t have heat?

    Ehh… the fabric might be cool. The red uniforms are terrific, with the double-breasted jackets, belted waist and epaulettes. Very classy. 

    • #113
  24. Hartmann von Aue Member
    Hartmann von Aue
    @HartmannvonAue

    Gary McVey (View Comment):

    Hartmann von Aue (View Comment):

    And we got Riker and Troi, take one, with him and Ilia.

    That’s very true and I never saw it before. TMP wasn’t an off-the-lot, overseas, semi-independent production like Star Wars and Close Encounters of the Third Kind. It was an in-house production of studio-owned material, filmed right on the lot by experienced old pros, led by the director of The Day the Earth Stood Still nearly thirty years earlier. It wasn’t filmed in an improvised studio in an Alabama blimp hangar like the climactic scenes of CE3K; TMP’s special effects weren’t done by a bunch of twenty-five year old stoners in the San Fernando Valley, as Lucas’s were. A Star Trek film should have been an easy layup for Paramount. But they let the time slip away inefficiently and they hired Robert Abel, late, to supervise the visual effects. On paper, this wasn’t a bad idea. Abel was a respected expert who’d accomplished amazing things for TV commercials, short films, and brief scenes in longer films. But this was a production line job with more than 100 shots to complete. They should have gone with someone who’d worked on this massive organizing scale before. He fell behind. Well, so had John Dykstra on Star Wars. Abel went over budget. But then, so did Doug Trumbull on Close Encounters.

    It is still remembered as one of the most last minute of edit-and-release jobs in Hollywood history. By then, they’d had to go ahead and OK composition of music before they had actual shots; then the pace of the locked-in music dictated the use of every foot of every exterior shot made of the Enterprise in space dock.

    But does it have its charms? You bet.

    Yeah, the uniforms are pretty dopey.

    Thanks. I did not know  that the music had played such a role in what footage had to be used. 

    • #114
  25. Skyler Coolidge
    Skyler
    @Skyler

    Hartmann von Aue (View Comment):

    I will put a good word in for Otto Preminger’s In Harm’s Way . It gets slammed for bad pacing, and for the fact that Kirk Douglas’ charming rogue character actually rapes a nurse, driving her to commit suicide, then commits suicide himself. I find that tragic element to the film entirely within the bounds of western literary canon. Then there is the reconciliation between John Wayne’s Admiral Rock Torrey and his estranged son (who also dies). It’s quite underrated.

    Just watched that a few months ago.  I couldn’t disagree more.  It is a terrible film.

    • #115
  26. Basil Fawlty Member
    Basil Fawlty
    @BasilFawlty

    ToryWarWriter (View Comment):

    Vince Guerra (View Comment):

    Gary McVey (View Comment):
    I’m going to be a little pre-emptive here and defend a movie that the gatekeepers never loved and in eleven or so months will be maligned big time: Stanley Kubrick’s A Clockwork Orange.

    I disagree. It’s revered by the groupthink critic intelligencia as are all things Kubrick, erroneously in my opinion. They’ll never cook up their sacred cows.

    Speaking of Kubrick. 2010 is a much better movie than 2001. The first movie is banal trash, which makes you despise the Vienna Waltz by the end.

    I believe you despise the wrong waltz.

    • #116
  27. Douglas Pratt Coolidge
    Douglas Pratt
    @DouglasPratt

    Percival (View Comment):

    The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes’ Smarter Brother. Gene Wilder wrote and directed. Gene Siskel didn’t like it. Pauline Kael didn’t like it. So much for Siskel and Kael.

    You beat me to it. I dearly love this movie. Leo McKern is perfection as Prof. Moriarty; of course, he is amazing in everything he did. He was the best Number Two in The Prisoner.

    Since my first pick is taken (and thanks, by the way, for making me feel less alone) I’ll put in a plug for The Last Remake of Beau Geste. Marty Feldman co-wrote and directed it. It’s got Ann-Margret and Peter Ustinov in it. Also James Earl Jones, Henry Gibson, Terry-Thomas, Roy Kinnear, Spike Milligan, Avery Schreiber, Ted Cassidy and Ed McMahon. What’s not to love?

    • #117
  28. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    Hartmann von Aue (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Percival (View Comment):

    OccupantCDN (View Comment):

    Pagodan (View Comment):

    Which leads me to a second movie, that while much maligned, is actually a solid “Good” movie. “Star Trek: The Motion Picture”. My only real complaint is that some of that cool mid-century modern kitsch from the 60’s became earth toned 70’s cheesiness, with goofy jumpsuits (bleh). I remember being bored and hating it as a kid (I grew up on all things Star Trek), but I think the problem is back in the 80’s we were watching this on a small tube tv with crappy color and a worn out speaker for sound. No one is gonna like a movie like this on that set-up. As and adult I went back and watched it with a large screen HD tv, decent sound system and speakers, and it was a whole new movie.

    Great effects, great Star Trek wonder, and the TOS cast is always great.

    STMP could have been much better. Its a grind to watch. Its way too long at 2h12m it should have been at most 100 minutes. (star trek ii Wrath of kahn, a much better film, is 1h53m long) there just isnt enough plot to fill the whole 2 hours…

    When they ran the exact same plot on TOS, it only took 38 minutes with commercial breaks.

    Uh, no. Back when TOS was on, an hour TV episode had something like 50 minutes or more of actual show. It’s only been in the last several years that an “hour” has become at little as 40 minutes or even less.

    But that said, there’s a reason why TMP is sometimes referred to as “Where Nomad Has Gone Before.”

    Keeping in mind that there was originally planned to be a new series, and then got reworked into a movie.

    Correct. The plan was for it to be a pilot, which makes The Changeling; The Movie more understandable. Also if I recall the novelization, which was drawn from the original script, correctly, they were planning on making much more of the fact that Will Decker was Matt Decker’s son. And we got Riker and Troi, take one, with him and Ilia.

    It just about killed off the chance of a sequel. I didn’t want another feature length treatment of a TOS episode. But the title of the next movie was Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan promised the answer to the question I had since grade school – what happens if you give a genetically superior egomaniac his very own planet?

    I had no ulterior motives in asking that question.

    Stop laughing.

    • #118
  29. Henry Racette Member
    Henry Racette
    @HenryRacette

    On further reflection…

    Yes, Animal House, as navyjag mentioned in #92. Also Heavy Metal, for the same reason: because some part of me never stopped being a teenage boy.

    And, finally, Naked Lunch.

    • #119
  30. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    Douglas Pratt (View Comment):
    Since my first pick is taken (and thanks, by the way, for making me feel less alone) I’ll put in a plug for The Last Remake of Beau Geste. Marty Feldman co-wrote and directed it. It’s got Ann-Margret and Peter Ustinov in it. Also James Earl Jones, Henry Gibson, Terry-Thomas, Roy Kinnear, Spike Milligan, Avery Schreiber, Ted Cassidy and Ed McMahon. What’s not to love?

    Digby Geste: You expect me to talk when all I could preserve is my own measly, worthless life? Too bloody right, I’ll talk! I’ll talk, I’ll talk, just try and stop me!

    • #120
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