Rep. Jim Jordan Seeks to Oust Rep. Liz Cheney from Leadership

 

According to this Politico article, Republican Rep. Jim Jordan plans to move to oust Rep. Liz Cheney from her position as the House Republican Conference Chair. Cheney previously announced her support for the impeachment of President Trump. According to the same article, the top two Republicans in the House — Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy and Minority Whip Steve Scalise — oppose impeachment.

This strikes me as a proper response to Cheney’s action. As I have posted previously, I find the calls for Trump’s impeachment to be a deranged overreaction. It is very disappointing to see some erstwhile conservatives and Republicans supporting such an action.

Rep. Cheney is entitled to her opinion and may vote as she sees fit. I think that it is quite proper for her House colleagues to remove her from a leadership position, if they disagree strongly with her on such an important issue.

I do expect that any Republican Congressmen or Senators who support impeachment to face a serious primary challenge in their next election.  Rightfully so, in my view.

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  1. FloppyDisk90 Member
    FloppyDisk90
    @FloppyDisk90

    Hoyacon (View Comment):
    Gosh I have to step in here. The “gun” thing is a very weak analogy. Trump has held skads of rallies without incident with the same kind of rhetoric. There were tens of thousands of people at this rally that did nothing. It’s pretty obvious that the minute portion of those who did cause the riot (number as yet unknown) had their own agenda. That’s not on Trump.

    Right, it was “mostly peaceful.”

    Yea, I admit that’s a cheap shot but I refuse to make excuses for this.  It doesn’t matter that it was a “minute portion” exactly like how we didn’t excuse protests on the other side for their “minute portion” of BLM/Antifa rioters.  And do I really have to remind you that what you say in a rally, where you hold it and when you hold it all matter?

    Sorry, unnecessarily confrontational.

    • #121
  2. GFHandle Member
    GFHandle
    @GFHandle

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):
    the true danger to President Trump

    Egad, is he president for life? In a week he is history. He can make speeches all he wants. He is, I think, a spent force. Time will tell. Of course, the Dems will over-reach and try to get him behind bars (“Lock her up” remember?) and that will put some wind in his sails.

    • #122
  3. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    FloppyDisk90 (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):
    Gosh I have to step in here. The “gun” thing is a very weak analogy. Trump has held skads of rallies without incident with the same kind of rhetoric. There were tens of thousands of people at this rally that did nothing. It’s pretty obvious that the minute portion of those who did cause the riot (number as yet unknown) had their own agenda. That’s not on Trump.

    Right, it was “mostly peaceful.”

    Yea, I admit that’s a cheap shot but I refuse to make excuses for this. It doesn’t matter that it was a “minute portion” exactly like how we didn’t excuse protests on the other side for their “minute portion” of BLM/Antifa rioters. And do I really have to remind you that what you say in a rally, where you hold it and when you hold it all matter?

    Actually, the Trump rally REALLY WAS mostly peaceful.  The reason “mostly peaceful” gets put in “air quotes” is because the BLM/Antifa rallies AREN’T mostly peaceful, although their leaders/handlers and the media claim they are/were.  And the “air quotes” also serve to show that we aren’t falling for it.

    • #123
  4. FloppyDisk90 Member
    FloppyDisk90
    @FloppyDisk90

    kedavis (View Comment):

    FloppyDisk90 (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):
    Gosh I have to step in here. The “gun” thing is a very weak analogy. Trump has held skads of rallies without incident with the same kind of rhetoric. There were tens of thousands of people at this rally that did nothing. It’s pretty obvious that the minute portion of those who did cause the riot (number as yet unknown) had their own agenda. That’s not on Trump.

    Right, it was “mostly peaceful.”

    Yea, I admit that’s a cheap shot but I refuse to make excuses for this. It doesn’t matter that it was a “minute portion” exactly like how we didn’t excuse protests on the other side for their “minute portion” of BLM/Antifa rioters. And do I really have to remind you that what you say in a rally, where you hold it and when you hold it all matter?

    Actually, the Trump rally REALLY WAS mostly peaceful. The reason “mostly peaceful” gets put in “air quotes” is because the BLM/Antifa rallies AREN’T mostly peaceful, although their leaders/handlers and the media claim they are/were. And the “air quotes” also serve to show that we aren’t falling for it.

    No, the reason why it gets put in air quotes is that it doesn’t matter whether or not a riot was mostly peaceful, it’s still a riot.

    • #124
  5. GFHandle Member
    GFHandle
    @GFHandle

    Hoyacon (View Comment):
    If we put the number of “pure” Trump supporters at 35-40 mil (just a guess), that’s still a highly influential group in a national election for as long as they live.

    But would they insist that what they want must be delivered by Trump and Trump alone? What if someone else (even Tom Cotton) were to offer the same kind of things (secure borders, rule of law, skepticism of world markets, America First foreign policy, pushback against the elites, etc.) why need the party split apart–especially if that package came in a more appealing personality? Or is it the case that the NT crowd is faking and it is not Trump they oppose but those values?  Those who are pushing for a civil war in the party may think they will be stronger after a purge. That seems nuts to me. But it is hard to see how Trump voters, neo-cons, libertarians, world market types, cultural conservatives, etc. manage to stay together long enough to win national elections.

     

    • #125
  6. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    FloppyDisk90 (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    FloppyDisk90 (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):
    Gosh I have to step in here. The “gun” thing is a very weak analogy. Trump has held skads of rallies without incident with the same kind of rhetoric. There were tens of thousands of people at this rally that did nothing. It’s pretty obvious that the minute portion of those who did cause the riot (number as yet unknown) had their own agenda. That’s not on Trump.

    Right, it was “mostly peaceful.”

    Yea, I admit that’s a cheap shot but I refuse to make excuses for this. It doesn’t matter that it was a “minute portion” exactly like how we didn’t excuse protests on the other side for their “minute portion” of BLM/Antifa rioters. And do I really have to remind you that what you say in a rally, where you hold it and when you hold it all matter?

    Actually, the Trump rally REALLY WAS mostly peaceful. The reason “mostly peaceful” gets put in “air quotes” is because the BLM/Antifa rallies AREN’T mostly peaceful, although their leaders/handlers and the media claim they are/were. And the “air quotes” also serve to show that we aren’t falling for it.

    No, the reason why it gets put in air quotes is that it doesn’t matter whether or not a riot was mostly peaceful, it’s still a riot.

    Since I was not present at any of these protests/riots I really cannot weigh in on the “mostly peaceful” part. Reporting seem to be thin at best so it was hard to tell or get any concept of whether therefore different groups with different agendas. What was disturbing was the lack of arrests, charging, and prosecutions for those committing crimes. It looks as if that part won’t be skipped over for the Capitol.

    • #126
  7. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    FloppyDisk90 (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    FloppyDisk90 (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):
    Gosh I have to step in here. The “gun” thing is a very weak analogy. Trump has held skads of rallies without incident with the same kind of rhetoric. There were tens of thousands of people at this rally that did nothing. It’s pretty obvious that the minute portion of those who did cause the riot (number as yet unknown) had their own agenda. That’s not on Trump.

    Right, it was “mostly peaceful.”

    Yea, I admit that’s a cheap shot but I refuse to make excuses for this. It doesn’t matter that it was a “minute portion” exactly like how we didn’t excuse protests on the other side for their “minute portion” of BLM/Antifa rioters. And do I really have to remind you that what you say in a rally, where you hold it and when you hold it all matter?

    Actually, the Trump rally REALLY WAS mostly peaceful. The reason “mostly peaceful” gets put in “air quotes” is because the BLM/Antifa rallies AREN’T mostly peaceful, although their leaders/handlers and the media claim they are/were. And the “air quotes” also serve to show that we aren’t falling for it.

    No, the reason why it gets put in air quotes is that it doesn’t matter whether or not a riot was mostly peaceful, it’s still a riot.

     

    Okay, fine, then all “riots” are the same?

     

    • #127
  8. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    GFHandle (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):
    If we put the number of “pure” Trump supporters at 35-40 mil (just a guess), that’s still a highly influential group in a national election for as long as they live.

    But would they insist that what they want must be delivered by Trump and Trump alone? What if someone else (even Tom Cotton) were to offer the same kind of things (secure borders, rule of law, skepticism of world markets, America First foreign policy, pushback against the elites, etc.) why need the party split apart–especially if that package came in a more appealing personality? Or is it the case that the NT crowd is faking and it is not Trump they oppose but those values? Those who are pushing for a civil war in the party may think they will be stronger after a purge. That seems nuts to me. But it is hard to see how Trump voters, neo-cons, libertarians, world market types, cultural conservatives, etc. manage to stay together long enough to win national elections.

    One big problem might be that the Republican Party has had candidates TALKING ABOUT stuff like that for a LONG time, without lifting a finger to actually DO it once in office.

    So having a nice-looking candidate who TALKS a good game would not be a departure from the norm.

    • #128
  9. GFHandle Member
    GFHandle
    @GFHandle

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):
    I think the President made a misjudgment in encouraging large supportive crowds coming to DC in January. By that time his options were exhausted. But I cannot read his mind and conclude that he was attempting “to disrupt a Constitutional process.” I also cannot conclude that he thought anything like what happened would happen. And reports I have seen place those who violated the Capitol at that location already when he was speaking to the crowd so it hard to fit the action to his words.

    This.

    • #129
  10. GFHandle Member
    GFHandle
    @GFHandle

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):
    Okay, instead of investing energy into recalling Biggs and Gosar, I will invest energy in defending the ten Republican’s Representatives who supported impeachment, and the (hopefully 17+) senators who vote to convict. I can also work in the primaries against Biggs and Gosar. (They are in R +15 and R +21 districts.) Gosar’s district includes Ash Fork, Seligman, Chino Valley and Cottonwood, all about an hour away.)

    So this is what gets you exited when it comes to solving America’s problems?????

    • #130
  11. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    GFHandle (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):
    If we put the number of “pure” Trump supporters at 35-40 mil (just a guess), that’s still a highly influential group in a national election for as long as they live.

    But would they insist that what they want must be delivered by Trump and Trump alone? What if someone else (even Tom Cotton) were to offer the same kind of things (secure borders, rule of law, skepticism of world markets, America First foreign policy, pushback against the elites, etc.) why need the party split apart–especially if that package came in a more appealing personality? Or is it the case that the NT crowd is faking and it is not Trump they oppose but those values? Those who are pushing for a civil war in the party may think they will be stronger after a purge. That seems nuts to me. But it is hard to see how Trump voters, neo-cons, libertarians, world market types, cultural conservatives, etc. manage to stay together long enough to win national elections.

    I’ll put my 2 cents in. I think a big part of the problem is an issue that Tulsi Gabbard has raised about Trump’s insistence that something be done about the Section 230 provision of whatever statute it is that shields Big Tech and allows them to censor conservative speech in various ways. Gabbard has said, in order to explain all the tough talk before and after hearings with the Big Tech CEO’s on this matter followed then by no action, is that these Republican Senators and others get money payoffs from the Silicon Valley firms and they don’t want that to stop. To me, this seems like about the only explanation left and it must involve some influential members of both parties in both houses of Congress. We don’t have very many elected officials who always, or even close to it, do the right thing for the people they represent.

     

    • #131
  12. Hoyacon Member
    Hoyacon
    @Hoyacon

    FloppyDisk90 (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):
    Gosh I have to step in here. The “gun” thing is a very weak analogy. Trump has held skads of rallies without incident with the same kind of rhetoric. There were tens of thousands of people at this rally that did nothing. It’s pretty obvious that the minute portion of those who did cause the riot (number as yet unknown) had their own agenda. That’s not on Trump.

    Right, it was “mostly peaceful.”

    Yea, I admit that’s a cheap shot but I refuse to make excuses for this. It doesn’t matter that it was a “minute portion” exactly like how we didn’t excuse protests on the other side for their “minute portion” of BLM/Antifa rioters. And do I really have to remind you that what you say in a rally, where you hold it and when you hold it all matter?

    Sorry, unnecessarily confrontational.

    Thanks for putting words in my mouth as to “mostly peaceful.”   If I want to say something, I will.

    The number of malefactors as a percentage of those who did nothing is extremely relevant to the question of whether the riot was, or should have been, forseeable.  It’s clear thousands and thousands were not moved to violence, while a small percentage with their own agenda was.  If Trump was as all-motivating as some would have us believe, well, I guess the tens of thousands who did nothing were slackers.

    • #132
  13. philo Member
    philo
    @philo

    FloppyDisk90 (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    FloppyDisk90 (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):
    Gosh I have to step in here. The “gun” thing is a very weak analogy. Trump has held skads of rallies without incident with the same kind of rhetoric. There were tens of thousands of people at this rally that did nothing. It’s pretty obvious that the minute portion of those who did cause the riot (number as yet unknown) had their own agenda. That’s not on Trump.

    Right, it was “mostly peaceful.”

    Yea, I admit that’s a cheap shot but I refuse to make excuses for this. It doesn’t matter that it was a “minute portion” exactly like how we didn’t excuse protests on the other side for their “minute portion” of BLM/Antifa rioters. And do I really have to remind you that what you say in a rally, where you hold it and when you hold it all matter?

    Actually, the Trump rally REALLY WAS mostly peaceful. The reason “mostly peaceful” gets put in “air quotes” is because the BLM/Antifa rallies AREN’T mostly peaceful, although their leaders/handlers and the media claim they are/were. And the “air quotes” also serve to show that we aren’t falling for it.

    No, the reason why it gets put in air quotes is that it doesn’t matter whether or not a riot was mostly peaceful, it’s still a riot.

    This is fun. Now let’s try this one: It doesn’t matter that it was pre-planned and already underway before he spoke, he still incited it. 

    • #133
  14. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    GFHandle (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):
    Okay, instead of investing energy into recalling Biggs and Gosar, I will invest energy in defending the ten Republican’s Representatives who supported impeachment, and the (hopefully 17+) senators who vote to convict. I can also work in the primaries against Biggs and Gosar. (They are in R +15 and R +21 districts.) Gosar’s district includes Ash Fork, Seligman, Chino Valley and Cottonwood, all about an hour away.)

    So this is what gets you exited when it comes to solving America’s problems?????

     

    Indeed.

     

    • #134
  15. Hoyacon Member
    Hoyacon
    @Hoyacon

    GFHandle (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):
    If we put the number of “pure” Trump supporters at 35-40 mil (just a guess), that’s still a highly influential group in a national election for as long as they live.

    But would they insist that what they want must be delivered by Trump and Trump alone? What if someone else (even Tom Cotton) were to offer the same kind of things (secure borders, rule of law, skepticism of world markets, America First foreign policy, pushback against the elites, etc.) why need the party split apart–especially if that package came in a more appealing personality? Or is it the case that the NT crowd is faking and it is not Trump they oppose but those values? Those who are pushing for a civil war in the party may think they will be stronger after a purge. That seems nuts to me. But it is hard to see how Trump voters, neo-cons, libertarians, world market types, cultural conservatives, etc. manage to stay together long enough to win national elections.

    I agree, and I wasn’t trying to suggest otherwise.  There is room to capture Trump supporters, but it will not be done by those who kicked him to the curb.

    • #135
  16. GFHandle Member
    GFHandle
    @GFHandle

    kedavis (View Comment):
    So having a nice-looking candidate who TALKS a good game would not be a departure from the norm.

    Agreed. But Trump couldn’t drain the swamp either. All we can ask is for someone who sees roughly the same main problems we do and favors roughly the same solutions we do and shows a willingness to work at them.  Trump does draw a LOT of oxygen to himself. Maybe someone who could make the case with a bit more clarity could be more successful? Someone with the rhetorical skills of Lincoln, say? I don’t ask for much. (And Lincoln was–and still is–treated much as Trump has been, I know.)

    • #136
  17. FloppyDisk90 Member
    FloppyDisk90
    @FloppyDisk90

    kedavis (View Comment):

    FloppyDisk90 (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    FloppyDisk90 (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):
    Gosh I have to step in here. The “gun” thing is a very weak analogy. Trump has held skads of rallies without incident with the same kind of rhetoric. There were tens of thousands of people at this rally that did nothing. It’s pretty obvious that the minute portion of those who did cause the riot (number as yet unknown) had their own agenda. That’s not on Trump.

    Right, it was “mostly peaceful.”

    Yea, I admit that’s a cheap shot but I refuse to make excuses for this. It doesn’t matter that it was a “minute portion” exactly like how we didn’t excuse protests on the other side for their “minute portion” of BLM/Antifa rioters. And do I really have to remind you that what you say in a rally, where you hold it and when you hold it all matter?

    Actually, the Trump rally REALLY WAS mostly peaceful. The reason “mostly peaceful” gets put in “air quotes” is because the BLM/Antifa rallies AREN’T mostly peaceful, although their leaders/handlers and the media claim they are/were. And the “air quotes” also serve to show that we aren’t falling for it.

    No, the reason why it gets put in air quotes is that it doesn’t matter whether or not a riot was mostly peaceful, it’s still a riot.

     

    Okay, fine, then all “riots” are the same?

     

    I’m just going to assume you missed it when I said I’m not making excuses for BLM/Antifa or attempting to downplay their significance.  Clearly, not all riots are equal but at the same time it doesn’t matter if they were “mostly peaceful” to start.  Re-posting internet memes isn’t particularly helpful.

    • #137
  18. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    GFHandle (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    So having a nice-looking candidate who TALKS a good game would not be a departure from the norm.

    Agreed. But Trump couldn’t drain the swamp either. All we can ask is for someone who sees roughly the same main problems we do and favors roughly the same solutions we do and shows a willingness to work at them. Trump does draw a LOT of oxygen to himself. Maybe someone who could make the case with a bit more clarity could be more successful? Someone with the rhetorical skills of Lincoln, say? I don’t ask for much. (And Lincoln was–and still is–treated much as Trump has been, I know.)

    The thing is, with so many possible candidates who TALK a lot but may not DO anything if elected, does it make sense to pick (another) someone who DOESN’T seem to fight like Trump, or someone who DOES?  Based on a few decades of watching what they say versus what they do, which option really makes the most sense?

    • #138
  19. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    FloppyDisk90 (View Comment):
    I’m just going to assume you missed it when I said I’m not making excuses for BLM/Antifa or attempting to downplay their significance. Clearly, not all riots are equal but at the same time it doesn’t matter if they were “mostly peaceful” to start. Re-posting internet memes isn’t particularly helpful.

    I think your statement “whether or not a riot was mostly peaceful, it’s still a riot” required that response.

    And as with many things that some people might claim are absolute – something is either a riot, or it’s not – there are gradations.  Indeed, compared with BLM/Antifa, it might reasonably claimed that Jan 6 was not actually a “riot” since very few of the thousands of people present, were involved.

     

    • #139
  20. MDHahn Coolidge
    MDHahn
    @MDHahn

    kedavis (View Comment):

    FloppyDisk90 (View Comment):

    No, the reason why it gets put in air quotes is that it doesn’t matter whether or not a riot was mostly peaceful, it’s still a riot.

     

    Okay, fine, then all “riots” are the same?

     

    So, if I was outraged at the riots during the summer, can I still be outraged at a riot that included people who were trying to overturn a legitimate election? Can I be outraged that there were people with zip-tie handcuffs looking to kidnap and harm members of Congress?

    I was outraged at the rioters who vandalized my state capitol and tore down a statue of Hans Christian Heg–a man who literally gave his life fighting to abolish slavery and preserve the Union–in the name of “racial justice.” I was outraged when the same crowd attacked a state senator for taking pictures, even though he supported their cause. I was outraged when so-called leaders did nothing to hold the rioters accountable.

    I am also outraged that self-described “patriots” attacked police officers, forced their way into the Capitol, and tried to force Congress to overturn the election. The videos of these idiots literally beating a police officer with American flags is repulsive. This isn’t a particularly difficult call. Because of them, and the politicians and pundits that lied to them about the election, this will not be a peaceful transition of power. How are you not ashamed of this? And if you are, why are we “whatabouting” this?

    • #140
  21. EDISONPARKS Member
    EDISONPARKS
    @user_54742

    MDHahn (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    FloppyDisk90 (View Comment):

    No, the reason why it gets put in air quotes is that it doesn’t matter whether or not a riot was mostly peaceful, it’s still a riot.

    Okay, fine, then all “riots” are the same?

    So, if I was outraged at the riots during the summer, can I still be outraged at a riot that included people who were trying to overturn a legitimate election? Can I be outraged that there were people with zip-tie handcuffs looking to kidnap and harm members of Congress?

    I was outraged at the rioters who vandalized my state capitol and tore down a statue of Hans Christian Heg–a man who literally gave his life fighting to abolish slavery and preserve the Union–in the name of “racial justice.” I was outraged when the same crowd attacked a state senator for taking pictures, even though he supported their cause. I was outraged when so-called leaders did nothing to hold the rioters accountable.

    I am also outraged that self-described “patriots” attacked police officers, forced their way into the Capitol, and tried to force Congress to overturn the election. The videos of these idiots literally beating a police officer with American flags is repulsive. This isn’t a particularly difficult call. Because of them, and the politicians and pundits that lied to them about the election, this will not be a peaceful transition of power. How are you not ashamed of this? And if you are, why are we “whatabouting” this?

    Yes.

    It’s not what abouting, it’s why weren’t the (D)/MSM outraged by all rioting.

    It’s more a WTFing.

    • #141
  22. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    GFHandle (View Comment):
    Agreed. But Trump couldn’t drain the swamp either

    There’s at least two parts to this. Revealing what is going on and the action to change it. I think Trump did a lot of the first. Not much on the second but wasn’t it revealing that the “swamp” took 100% of 4 years in an effort to thwart every action by Trump and he still got some good things accomplished.

    • #142
  23. FloppyDisk90 Member
    FloppyDisk90
    @FloppyDisk90

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    FloppyDisk90 (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):
    Gosh I have to step in here. The “gun” thing is a very weak analogy. Trump has held skads of rallies without incident with the same kind of rhetoric. There were tens of thousands of people at this rally that did nothing. It’s pretty obvious that the minute portion of those who did cause the riot (number as yet unknown) had their own agenda. That’s not on Trump.

    Right, it was “mostly peaceful.”

    Yea, I admit that’s a cheap shot but I refuse to make excuses for this. It doesn’t matter that it was a “minute portion” exactly like how we didn’t excuse protests on the other side for their “minute portion” of BLM/Antifa rioters. And do I really have to remind you that what you say in a rally, where you hold it and when you hold it all matter?

    Sorry, unnecessarily confrontational.

    Thanks for putting words in my mouth as to “mostly peaceful.” If I want to say something, I will.

    The number of malefactors as a percentage of those who did nothing is extremely relevant to the question of whether the riot was, or should have been, forseeable. It’s clear thousands and thousands were not moved to violence, while a small percentage with their own agenda was. If Trump was as all-motivating as some would have us believe, well, I guess the tens of thousands who did nothing were slackers.

    How is “number of malefactors as a percentage of those who did nothing” not just a wordier version of “mostly peaceful”?

    • #143
  24. lowtech redneck Coolidge
    lowtech redneck
    @lowtech redneck

    GFHandle (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):
    If we put the number of “pure” Trump supporters at 35-40 mil (just a guess), that’s still a highly influential group in a national election for as long as they live.

    Or is it the case that the NT crowd is faking and it is not Trump they oppose but those values? 

    By and large, yes; and not just the NT crowd.

    As for forming a second party, if it comes to that, I would support it if the first wave of defectors was sufficient to greatly cripple the capacity of Republicans to win, as there would no longer be any point in voting for the Stupid Party-like I’ve said before, I’ve had my own issues with Trump this past month or so, but I am completely alienated from most of the Republican political class.  Its up to the latter not to throw away the hardcore (i.e. the theoretical first wave) Trump vote, and they seem either unwilling or unable to do that.

     

     

    • #144
  25. MDHahn Coolidge
    MDHahn
    @MDHahn

    kedavis (View Comment):

    FloppyDisk90 (View Comment):
    I’m just going to assume you missed it when I said I’m not making excuses for BLM/Antifa or attempting to downplay their significance. Clearly, not all riots are equal but at the same time it doesn’t matter if they were “mostly peaceful” to start. Re-posting internet memes isn’t particularly helpful.

    I think your statement “whether or not a riot was mostly peaceful, it’s still a riot” required that response.

    And as with many things that some people might claim are absolute – something is either a riot, or it’s not – there are gradations. Indeed, compared with BLM/Antifa, it might reasonably claimed that Jan 6 was not actually a “riot” since very few of the thousands of people present, were involved.

    This strikes me as more excuse-making for what happened at the Capitol. After 2 months of Trump and his allies lying about the size and scale of alleged voter fraud, the rhetoric got more and more desperate. When the court challenges all failed, Trump resorted to trying to pressure state legislatures to change the electoral votes. When that failed, he pressured Pence to violate the Constitution and reject electoral votes. All the while, Trump insisted he won in a landslide. 

    The result is a lot of people believing that an election had been stolen. The fraud and conspiracy was enormous. What other option did they have? They were convinced by the lies that they needed to “fight” and show “strength” to make sure that Congress and Pence “did the right thing.” Members of Congress called for violence! The result was then a riot on 1/6.

    Even if you disagree with how the riot happened, do you at least agree that it was wrong? That it is deserving of condemnation?

    • #145
  26. lowtech redneck Coolidge
    lowtech redneck
    @lowtech redneck

    MDHahn (View Comment):

    Even if you disagree with how the riot happened, do you at least agree that it was wrong? That it is deserving of condemnation?

    Condemnation has been near universal, what most people are objecting to is portraying it as an insurrection and using it as a Reichstag fire in hopes that it destroys the dominant Republican voter faction as a political force.

     

    • #146
  27. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    EDISONPARKS (View Comment):

    MDHahn (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    FloppyDisk90 (View Comment):

    No, the reason why it gets put in air quotes is that it doesn’t matter whether or not a riot was mostly peaceful, it’s still a riot.

    Okay, fine, then all “riots” are the same?

    So, if I was outraged at the riots during the summer, can I still be outraged at a riot that included people who were trying to overturn a legitimate election? Can I be outraged that there were people with zip-tie handcuffs looking to kidnap and harm members of Congress?

    I was outraged at the rioters who vandalized my state capitol and tore down a statue of Hans Christian Heg–a man who literally gave his life fighting to abolish slavery and preserve the Union–in the name of “racial justice.” I was outraged when the same crowd attacked a state senator for taking pictures, even though he supported their cause. I was outraged when so-called leaders did nothing to hold the rioters accountable.

    I am also outraged that self-described “patriots” attacked police officers, forced their way into the Capitol, and tried to force Congress to overturn the election. The videos of these idiots literally beating a police officer with American flags is repulsive. This isn’t a particularly difficult call. Because of them, and the politicians and pundits that lied to them about the election, this will not be a peaceful transition of power. How are you not ashamed of this? And if you are, why are we “whatabouting” this?

    Yes.

    It’s not what abouting, it’s why weren’t the (D)/MSM outraged by all rioting.

    It’s more a WTF.

    As has been mentioned on other threads, calling “whataboutism” is just a tool used by the left to distract from their hypocrisy, among other issues.

    • #147
  28. FloppyDisk90 Member
    FloppyDisk90
    @FloppyDisk90

    kedavis (View Comment):

    FloppyDisk90 (View Comment):
    I’m just going to assume you missed it when I said I’m not making excuses for BLM/Antifa or attempting to downplay their significance. Clearly, not all riots are equal but at the same time it doesn’t matter if they were “mostly peaceful” to start. Re-posting internet memes isn’t particularly helpful.

    I think your statement “whether or not a riot was mostly peaceful, it’s still a riot” required that response.

    And as with many things that some people might claim are absolute – something is either a riot, or it’s not – there are gradations. Indeed, compared with BLM/Antifa, it might reasonably claimed that Jan 6 was not actually a “riot” since very few of the thousands of people present, were involved.

    So let me see if I understand your point:  whether or not a riot is a riot is conditioned on how many people didn’t riot???  So if the left can prove that BLM/Antifa rioters were a minority of those who peacefully protested you would be OK with them?

     

    • #148
  29. MDHahn Coolidge
    MDHahn
    @MDHahn

    kedavis (View Comment):

    EDISONPARKS (View Comment):

    MDHahn (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    FloppyDisk90 (View Comment):

    No, the reason why it gets put in air quotes is that it doesn’t matter whether or not a riot was mostly peaceful, it’s still a riot.

    Okay, fine, then all “riots” are the same?

    So, if I was outraged at the riots during the summer, can I still be outraged at a riot that included people who were trying to overturn a legitimate election? Can I be outraged that there were people with zip-tie handcuffs looking to kidnap and harm members of Congress?

    I was outraged at the rioters who vandalized my state capitol and tore down a statue of Hans Christian Heg–a man who literally gave his life fighting to abolish slavery and preserve the Union–in the name of “racial justice.” I was outraged when the same crowd attacked a state senator for taking pictures, even though he supported their cause. I was outraged when so-called leaders did nothing to hold the rioters accountable.

    I am also outraged that self-described “patriots” attacked police officers, forced their way into the Capitol, and tried to force Congress to overturn the election. The videos of these idiots literally beating a police officer with American flags is repulsive. This isn’t a particularly difficult call. Because of them, and the politicians and pundits that lied to them about the election, this will not be a peaceful transition of power. How are you not ashamed of this? And if you are, why are we “whatabouting” this?

    Yes.

    It’s not what abouting, it’s why weren’t the (D)/MSM outraged by all rioting.

    It’s more a WTF.

    As has been mentioned on other threads, calling “whataboutism” is just a tool used by the left to distract from their hypocrisy, among other issues.

    I’m very much not on the left. Their hypocrisy is awful. I have no problem condemning it provided that at the same time you are also condemning the riot at the Capitol. You seem to be deflecting and accusing those of us who are outraged as virtue signaling or simply seeking liberal approval.

    • #149
  30. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    lowtech redneck (View Comment):

    GFHandle (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):
    If we put the number of “pure” Trump supporters at 35-40 mil (just a guess), that’s still a highly influential group in a national election for as long as they live.

    Or is it the case that the NT crowd is faking and it is not Trump they oppose but those values?

    By and large, yes; and not just the NT crowd.

    As for forming a second party, if it comes to that, I would support it if the first wave of defectors was sufficient to greatly cripple the capacity of Republicans to win, as there would no longer be any point in voting for the Stupid Party-like I’ve said before, I’ve had my own issues with Trump this past month or so, but I am completely alienated from most of the Republican political class. Its up to the latter not to throw away the hardcore (i.e. the theoretical first wave) Trump vote, and they seem either unwilling or unable to do that.

    It’s easy to suspect that many who called Trump too divisive, too confrontational, etc, were actually motivated not by “Trump is divisive” etc, but by “Trump is trying to stop our gravy train!”  And they were able to convince a lot of people who were not on the gravy train themselves but could be flattered into going along and hence believe they were really the righteous ones.  Those would be the useful idiots.  In some cases it may not be immediately clear whether an individual is on the “gravy train” side personally or if they are one of the “useful idiots.”  In others it’s glaringly obvious.

    • #150
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