Rep. Jim Jordan Seeks to Oust Rep. Liz Cheney from Leadership

 

According to this Politico article, Republican Rep. Jim Jordan plans to move to oust Rep. Liz Cheney from her position as the House Republican Conference Chair. Cheney previously announced her support for the impeachment of President Trump. According to the same article, the top two Republicans in the House — Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy and Minority Whip Steve Scalise — oppose impeachment.

This strikes me as a proper response to Cheney’s action. As I have posted previously, I find the calls for Trump’s impeachment to be a deranged overreaction. It is very disappointing to see some erstwhile conservatives and Republicans supporting such an action.

Rep. Cheney is entitled to her opinion and may vote as she sees fit. I think that it is quite proper for her House colleagues to remove her from a leadership position, if they disagree strongly with her on such an important issue.

I do expect that any Republican Congressmen or Senators who support impeachment to face a serious primary challenge in their next election.  Rightfully so, in my view.

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  1. Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… Member
    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio…
    @ArizonaPatriot

    FloppyDisk90 (View Comment):

    Brian Watt (View Comment):

    FloppyDisk90 (View Comment):

    Brian Watt (View Comment):
    …..

    What???? Now personal character matters?? I thought that all that mattered to the steely eyed realpolitik Trumpists was winning and policy?

    I don’t speak for Trumpists. I was an anti-Trumpist in 2016. I’m just making an observation. And I may be totally wrong about this but calculated appeasement probably not something that Americans yearn for in a president – especially when dealing with Democrat socialists who want to censor you, confiscate your firearms, pack the Supreme Court, escalate the number of abortions, re-establish relations with a terrorist regime bent on Israel’s annihilation, ramp up regulations on businesses, and confiscate more of your earnings if you’re lucky enough to still be employed.

    I do understand that there are Republicans who aren’t terribly concerned about any of those things and some who actually voted for the Presidential candidate who has promised to immediately usher most of this in during his term – because you know – the alternative was the most pro-life, anti-Communist President who can be…(are you near a fainting couch?)…a meany.

    …and had no problem throwing Mike Pence, who was a model of loyalty and level headedness, under the bus when push came to shove. You forgot that part.

    I have criticized the President for his treatment of the Vice President regarding the counting of the electoral votes.  I think that the President was wrong about this, and should not have done it.

    • #91
  2. Paul Dougherty Member
    Paul Dougherty
    @PaulDougherty

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Tyrion Lannister (View Comment):
    Disagree to support Trump if you like. But don’t vote for Biden and expect me to welcome you with open arms.

    THEY think that THEY are waiting to welcome YOU back. After YOU repent, for having supported Trump etc.

    “Welcome” may be a bit optimistic.

    • #92
  3. WillowSpring Member
    WillowSpring
    @WillowSpring

    Brian Watt (View Comment):
    I’ll take this as a clarification since this is vastly different than what you originally posted.

    Were we talking about the different countings?  I wasn’t referring to the state level, just the final count in front of both houses of congress.

    • #93
  4. lowtech redneck Coolidge
    lowtech redneck
    @lowtech redneck

    WillowSpring (View Comment):

    Exit question: If Trump can be impeached for his words ( which I personally don’t think were incitement to riot), can Biden and Harris be impeached for their words (excusing the riots and vandalism as ‘protests’ and not condemning them) and actions (contributing to the bail fund for the rioters)? If not, why not?

    Impeachment supporters never seem to answer that, for some reason.

     

     

    • #94
  5. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    lowtech redneck (View Comment):

    WillowSpring (View Comment):

    Exit question: If Trump can be impeached for his words ( which I personally don’t think were incitement to riot), can Biden and Harris be impeached for their words (excusing the riots and vandalism as ‘protests’ and not condemning them) and actions (contributing to the bail fund for the rioters)? If not, why not?

    Impeachment supporters never seem to answer that, for some reason.

    I agree with can, and I’ll include should.  But they won’t, because the Dims have the majority of the House.

    • #95
  6. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    kedavis (View Comment):

    lowtech redneck (View Comment):

    WillowSpring (View Comment):

    Exit question: If Trump can be impeached for his words ( which I personally don’t think were incitement to riot), can Biden and Harris be impeached for their words (excusing the riots and vandalism as ‘protests’ and not condemning them) and actions (contributing to the bail fund for the rioters)? If not, why not?

    Impeachment supporters never seem to answer that, for some reason.

    I agree with can, and I’ll include should. But they won’t, because the Dims have the majority of the House.

    You are agreeing that they can be impeached for things said before they were in office? How far back in time can this go? Is this now available because of the new ‘cancel culture’ feature?

    • #96
  7. Hang On Member
    Hang On
    @HangOn

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

     

    The best path forward is reconciliation within the GOP. I’d like to see both the pro-Trump and anti-Trump folks move forward together, without engaging in further conflict that will hurt the party, and likely result in Dem victories that will leave all of us unhappy.

    Hmm. The path forward will be antipathy to what the Biden administration does and whether it will be sufficient. There is no guarantee that it will. And I don’t agree that the schism will necessarily lead to Dem victories. It may. It may not. Both party leaderships are capable of amazingly stupid things. Some of the NTers are perfectly capable of voting for Biden. There’s no reason to think they can’t come back to the GOP. But when they start to think they should run things, doesn’t that show a pathological delusion on their part?

    • #97
  8. FloppyDisk90 Member
    FloppyDisk90
    @FloppyDisk90

    lowtech redneck (View Comment):

    WillowSpring (View Comment):

    Exit question: If Trump can be impeached for his words ( which I personally don’t think were incitement to riot), can Biden and Harris be impeached for their words (excusing the riots and vandalism as ‘protests’ and not condemning them) and actions (contributing to the bail fund for the rioters)? If not, why not?

    Impeachment supporters never seem to answer that, for some reason.

    There’s a difference in kind between wink-wink-nod-nodding looting a McDonalds as a senator and wink-wink-nod-nodding breaking and entering the Capitol Building while a session of Congress is attempting to ratify the results of an election as the sitting President, no?

    • #98
  9. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    FloppyDisk90 (View Comment):

    lowtech redneck (View Comment):

    WillowSpring (View Comment):

    Exit question: If Trump can be impeached for his words ( which I personally don’t think were incitement to riot), can Biden and Harris be impeached for their words (excusing the riots and vandalism as ‘protests’ and not condemning them) and actions (contributing to the bail fund for the rioters)? If not, why not?

    Impeachment supporters never seem to answer that, for some reason.

    There’s a difference in kind between wink-wink-nod-nodding looting a McDonalds as a senator and wink-wink-nod-nodding breaking and entering the Capitol Building while a session of Congress is attempting to ratify the results of an election as the sitting President, no?

    Both parts of your statement are inaccurate. The first part is understatement of the content and action and the second part is overstatement of content. Wink-wink-nod-nodding doesn’t cover that up.

    • #99
  10. cdor Member
    cdor
    @cdor

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Brian Watt (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Brian Watt (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    Hang On (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

     

    This is a battle for the soul of the Republican Party.

     

    For once we agree. And you will be defeated.

    I disagree with both of you.

    The best path forward is reconciliation within the GOP. I’d like to see both the pro-Trump and anti-Trump folks move forward together, without engaging in further conflict that will hurt the party, and likely result in Dem victories that will leave all of us unhappy.

    Senator Tom Cotton supports most of Trump’s policy positions, but doesn’t go along with Trump’s personality “quirks.” I could easily vote for Tom Cotton. You would get Trump’s policies but not Trump himself. Deal?

    Cotton is done. He will never attain higher office than Senator…unless he changes his party affiliation. 70+ million won’t forget.

    I don’t get this.

    Cotton danced on a tightrope trying appease both factions of the GOP – said he wouldn’t raise any objections to any of the election fraud CLEARLY evident in any of the contested states during the EC session in Congress but supported a commission to study and audit the election results after the Biden inauguration – like that was going to happen. Not exactly a display of courage. A display of calculated appeasement. This actually has nothing to do with Trump. It was a revelation of his personal character. His strident rhetoric prior to this move was refreshing to hear. But when the going got rough… It also reminded me of George H.W. Bush constantly and sternly pronouncing: “Read my lips. No new taxes!” Only to cave. Which is why he was a one-term POTUS.

    Fine. I’m just not into ideological purity tests, particularly with people we need who have proven to be stand-up far more often than not. I don’t see Cotton as a presidential contender, but I don’t want him marginalized either.

    I agree with Hoyacon on this issue, Brian. I would want to know more directly what position Cotton is taking. In the spirit suggested earlier by Jerry Giordano when he cautioned me for taking umbrage too soon against Mitch McConnel, who I think is a lot less worthy of consideration than Tom Cotton, I am seeing things moving at a very fast pace right now. Maybe a deep breath wouldn’t hurt. But I will repeat my thought that this is in the Senate hands right now and McConnell is the leader. If he lets this happen while Trump has only days left, he and others, including possibly Cotton, will be nothing to me.

    • #100
  11. MichaelKennedy Inactive
    MichaelKennedy
    @MichaelKennedy

    FloppyDisk90 (View Comment):

    MichaelKennedy (View Comment):

    MDHahn (View Comment):

    Cheney is showing leadership by standing up for her principles. Good for her. She did not spread the lie about stolen elections and rightly places blame at Trump’s feet for what happened on 1/6. I will gladly take her side in whatever fights come next. It’s a shame that the GOP is tearing itself apart over Trump’s fragile ego.

    You will be welcome in that tiny group.

    I agree that conservatives (however defined) will need Trump supporters for at least the foreseeable future. However, if you think the hardcore Trumpists are anywhere near 80M, which is the figure being thrown around, then IMHO you’re vastly overestimating the MAGA hat wearing population.

    Well, the last survey I saw had 90% approval of him as president.  You can try to create your own party.  Good luck.

    • #101
  12. MichaelKennedy Inactive
    MichaelKennedy
    @MichaelKennedy

    Brian Watt (View Comment):

    FloppyDisk90 (View Comment):

    Brian Watt (View Comment):
    Cotton danced on a tightrope trying appease both factions of the GOP – said he wouldn’t raise any objections to any of the election fraud CLEARLY evident in any of the contested states during the EC session in Congress but supported a commission to study and audit the election results after the Biden inauguration – like that was going to happen. Not exactly a display of courage. A display of calculated appeasement. This actually has nothing to do with Trump. It was a revelation of his personal character. His strident rhetoric prior to this move was refreshing to hear. But when the going got rough… It also reminded me of George H.W. Bush constantly and sternly pronouncing: “Read my lips. No new taxes!” Only to cave. Which is why he was a one-term POTUS.

    What???? Now personal character matters?? I thought that all that mattered to the steely eyed realpolitik Trumpists was winning and policy?

    I don’t speak for Trumpists. I was an anti-Trumpist in 2016. I’m just making an observation. And I may be totally wrong about this but calculated appeasement probably not something that Americans yearn for in a president – especially when dealing with Democrat socialists who want to censor you, confiscate your firearms, pack the Supreme Court, escalate the number of abortions, re-establish relations with a terrorist regime bent on Israel’s annihilation, ramp up regulations on businesses, and confiscate more of your earnings if you’re lucky enough to still be employed.

    I do understand that there are Republicans who aren’t terribly concerned about any of those things and some who actually voted for the Presidential candidate who has promised to immediately usher most of this in during his term – because you know – the alternative was the most pro-life, anti-Communist President who can be…(are you near a fainting couch?)…a meany.

    I wonder how many of them work for companies invested in China?

    • #102
  13. Brian Watt Inactive
    Brian Watt
    @BrianWatt

    cdor (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Brian Watt (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Brian Watt (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    Hang On (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

     

    This is a battle for the soul of the Republican Party.

     

    For once we agree. And you will be defeated.

    I disagree with both of you.

    The best path forward is reconciliation within the GOP. I’d like to see both the pro-Trump and anti-Trump folks move forward together, without engaging in further conflict that will hurt the party, and likely result in Dem victories that will leave all of us unhappy.

    Senator Tom Cotton supports most of Trump’s policy positions, but doesn’t go along with Trump’s personality “quirks.” I could easily vote for Tom Cotton. You would get Trump’s policies but not Trump himself. Deal?

    Cotton is done. He will never attain higher office than Senator…unless he changes his party affiliation. 70+ million won’t forget.

    I don’t get this.

    Cotton danced on a tightrope trying appease both factions of the GOP – said he wouldn’t raise any objections to any of the election fraud CLEARLY evident in any of the contested states during the EC session in Congress but supported a commission to study and audit the election results after the Biden inauguration – like that was going to happen. Not exactly a display of courage. A display of calculated appeasement. This actually has nothing to do with Trump. It was a revelation of his personal character. His strident rhetoric prior to this move was refreshing to hear. But when the going got rough… It also reminded me of George H.W. Bush constantly and sternly pronouncing: “Read my lips. No new taxes!” Only to cave. Which is why he was a one-term POTUS.

    Fine. I’m just not into ideological purity tests, particularly with people we need who have proven to be stand-up far more often than not. I don’t see Cotton as a presidential contender, but I don’t want him marginalized either.

    I agree with Hoyacon on this issue, Brian. I would want to know more directly what position Cotton is taking. In the spirit suggested earlier by Jerry Giordano when he cautioned me for taking umbrage too soon against Mitch McConnel, who I think is a lot less worthy of consideration than Tom Cotton, I am seeing things moving at a very fast pace right now. Maybe a deep breath wouldn’t hurt. But I will repeat my thought that this is in the Senate hands right now and McConnell is the leader. If he lets this happen while Trump has only days left, he and others, including possibly Cotton, will be nothing to me.

    See my subsequent comment/reply to Hoyacon on this.

    • #103
  14. MichaelKennedy Inactive
    MichaelKennedy
    @MichaelKennedy

    FloppyDisk90 (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    FloppyDisk90 (View Comment):

    MichaelKennedy (View Comment):

    MDHahn (View Comment):

    Cheney is showing leadership by standing up for her principles. Good for her. She did not spread the lie about stolen elections and rightly places blame at Trump’s feet for what happened on 1/6. I will gladly take her side in whatever fights come next. It’s a shame that the GOP is tearing itself apart over Trump’s fragile ego.

    You will be welcome in that tiny group.

    I agree that conservatives (however defined) will need Trump supporters for at least the foreseeable future. However, if you think the hardcore Trumpists are anywhere near 80M, which is the figure being thrown around, then IMHO you’re vastly overestimating the MAGA hat wearing population.

    Depends on your definition of “vastly.” After al. of the slings and arrows thrown at Trump over time, 74 million voted for him. so the obvious question is how many of those were clearly pro-Trump and opposed to anti-Biden votes. And the fact that a lot might have been both further muddies the waters. If we put the number of “pure” Trump supporters at 35-40 mil (just a guess), that’s still a highly influential group in a national election for as long as they live.

    As an aside, your post is reasonable, but the “Trumpist” phraseology is unnecessary.

    When used with the adjective I think it’s an accurate term. I’m not referring to your run of the mill Trump voter with that term.

    I suppose you also liked “Tea bagger.”

    • #104
  15. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    MichaelKennedy (View Comment):

    Brian Watt (View Comment):

    FloppyDisk90 (View Comment):

    Brian Watt (View Comment):
    Cotton danced on a tightrope trying appease both factions of the GOP – said he wouldn’t raise any objections to any of the election fraud CLEARLY evident in any of the contested states during the EC session in Congress but supported a commission to study and audit the election results after the Biden inauguration – like that was going to happen. Not exactly a display of courage. A display of calculated appeasement. This actually has nothing to do with Trump. It was a revelation of his personal character. His strident rhetoric prior to this move was refreshing to hear. But when the going got rough… It also reminded me of George H.W. Bush constantly and sternly pronouncing: “Read my lips. No new taxes!” Only to cave. Which is why he was a one-term POTUS.

    What???? Now personal character matters?? I thought that all that mattered to the steely eyed realpolitik Trumpists was winning and policy?

    I don’t speak for Trumpists. I was an anti-Trumpist in 2016. I’m just making an observation. And I may be totally wrong about this but calculated appeasement probably not something that Americans yearn for in a president – especially when dealing with Democrat socialists who want to censor you, confiscate your firearms, pack the Supreme Court, escalate the number of abortions, re-establish relations with a terrorist regime bent on Israel’s annihilation, ramp up regulations on businesses, and confiscate more of your earnings if you’re lucky enough to still be employed.

    I do understand that there are Republicans who aren’t terribly concerned about any of those things and some who actually voted for the Presidential candidate who has promised to immediately usher most of this in during his term – because you know – the alternative was the most pro-life, anti-Communist President who can be…(are you near a fainting couch?)…a meany.

    I wonder how many of them work for companies invested in China?

    To re-use an old expression:  When you’re invested in China, China is invested in YOU!. 

    • #105
  16. FloppyDisk90 Member
    FloppyDisk90
    @FloppyDisk90

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    FloppyDisk90 (View Comment):

    lowtech redneck (View Comment):

    WillowSpring (View Comment):

    Exit question: If Trump can be impeached for his words ( which I personally don’t think were incitement to riot), can Biden and Harris be impeached for their words (excusing the riots and vandalism as ‘protests’ and not condemning them) and actions (contributing to the bail fund for the rioters)? If not, why not?

    Impeachment supporters never seem to answer that, for some reason.

    There’s a difference in kind between wink-wink-nod-nodding looting a McDonalds as a senator and wink-wink-nod-nodding breaking and entering the Capitol Building while a session of Congress is attempting to ratify the results of an election as the sitting President, no?

    Both parts of your statement are inaccurate. The first part is understatement of the content and action and the second part is overstatement of content. Wink-wink-nod-nodding doesn’t cover that up.

    I’ll concede the first part but Trump clearly was whipping up the crowd before hand and then gave a weak sauce statement in which he was obviously (to quote Brian Watt) “…walking on a tightrope trying to appease both factions…”  We can argue semantics but the point stands:  looking askance as the President while rioters attempt to disrupt a Constitutional process (and a fair argument can be made that he had a hand in it happening with his pre-riot rally) is fundamentally different then what Biden/Pelosi did (or didn’t) say about BLM and Antifa riots.  This isn’t even considering his weeks long campaign of disinformation (hacked voting machines, winning by a landslide, etc…), attempting to bully the VP into de-ratifying the EC vote and strong arming Georgia voting officials to find votes. 

    • #106
  17. EDISONPARKS Member
    EDISONPARKS
    @user_54742

    FloppyDisk90 (View Comment):

    lowtech redneck (View Comment):

    WillowSpring (View Comment):

    Exit question: If Trump can be impeached for his words ( which I personally don’t think were incitement to riot), can Biden and Harris be impeached for their words (excusing the riots and vandalism as ‘protests’ and not condemning them) and actions (contributing to the bail fund for the rioters)? If not, why not?

    Impeachment supporters never seem to answer that, for some reason.

    There’s a difference in kind between wink-wink-nod-nodding looting a McDonalds as a senator and wink-wink-nod-nodding breaking and entering the Capitol Building while a session of Congress is attempting to ratify the results of an election as the sitting President, no?

    But if you throw in a burning down a Wendy’s along with the looting of the McDonalds plus add another looting of a Foot Locker would that balance out the moral equivalency equation.

    If that doesn’t balance it out just add in the Antifa take over a portion of the City of Portland then if needed the firebombing of Federal Buildings.

    Somebody has to figure out how each of these acts of looting and rioting should be weighted and measured.

    • #107
  18. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    FloppyDisk90 (View Comment):
    We can argue semantics but the point stands: looking askance as the President while rioters attempt to disrupt a Constitutional process (and a fair argument can be made that he had a hand in it happening with his pre-riot rally) is fundamentally different then what Biden/Pelosi did (or didn’t) say about BLM and Antifa riots.

    So “attempt to disrupt a Constitutional process” is worse than encouraging riots that burn buildings – including federal buildings! – sometimes after trying to make it impossible for people inside to escape, and the rest that Biden and Harris have done?

    This isn’t even considering his weeks long campaign of disinformation (hacked voting machines, winning by a landslide, etc…), attempting to bully the VP into de-ratifying the EC vote and strong arming Georgia voting officials to find votes.

    Lots of “disputed assertions” there.  Even if YOU think Trump was “strong arming Georgia voting officials to find votes” doesn’t make it so.

    • #108
  19. FloppyDisk90 Member
    FloppyDisk90
    @FloppyDisk90

    EDISONPARKS (View Comment):

    FloppyDisk90 (View Comment):

    lowtech redneck (View Comment):

    WillowSpring (View Comment):

    Exit question: If Trump can be impeached for his words ( which I personally don’t think were incitement to riot), can Biden and Harris be impeached for their words (excusing the riots and vandalism as ‘protests’ and not condemning them) and actions (contributing to the bail fund for the rioters)? If not, why not?

    Impeachment supporters never seem to answer that, for some reason.

    There’s a difference in kind between wink-wink-nod-nodding looting a McDonalds as a senator and wink-wink-nod-nodding breaking and entering the Capitol Building while a session of Congress is attempting to ratify the results of an election as the sitting President, no?

    But if you throw in a burning down a Wendy’s along with the looting of the McDonalds plus add another looting of a Foot Locker would that balance out the moral equivalency equation.

    If that doesn’t balance it out just add in the Antifa take over a portion of the City of Portland then if needed the firebombing of Federal Buildings.

    Somebody has to figure out how each of these acts of looting and rioting should be weighted and measured.

    I’m not excusing the BLM/Antifa rioters or trying to downplay their significance.  I was making a point (attempting at least) about why there is a difference between Biden’s/Harris’ support of BLM/Antifa and attempting to disrupt a Constitutional process.

    • #109
  20. aardo vozz Member
    aardo vozz
    @aardovozz

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Gary still thinks members of the House are subject to recall?

    And that Cheney and Jordan are in some kind of competitive race, i.e. election?

    In Arizona they sure are. Before Arizona was admitted as a state in 1912, Arizona was going to be the 47th state and New Mexico would be the 48th state. However, President Taft disagreed with the provision in our Constitution that allowed for the recall of Judges and he vetoed our admission. Arizona then took out the offending provision and President Taft signed our admission on February 14, 2012, making us the “Valentine State.” At the November 2012 election, we added the recall of judges as part of our constitution.

    Cheney is the Republican House Conference Chair. I assume that she can be voted out of her position.

    Not to nitpick, but do you mean February 14,1912?

    • #110
  21. FloppyDisk90 Member
    FloppyDisk90
    @FloppyDisk90

    kedavis (View Comment):

    FloppyDisk90 (View Comment):
    We can argue semantics but the point stands: looking askance as the President while rioters attempt to disrupt a Constitutional process (and a fair argument can be made that he had a hand in it happening with his pre-riot rally) is fundamentally different then what Biden/Pelosi did (or didn’t) say about BLM and Antifa riots.

    So “attempt to disrupt a Constitutional process” is worse than encouraging riots that burn buildings – including federal buildings! – sometimes after trying to make it impossible for people inside to escape, and the rest that Biden and Harris have done?

    This isn’t even considering his weeks long campaign of disinformation (hacked voting machines, winning by a landslide, etc…), attempting to bully the VP into de-ratifying the EC vote and strong arming Georgia voting officials to find votes.

    Lots of “disputed assertions” there. Even if YOU think Trump was “strong arming Georgia voting officials to find votes” doesn’t make it so.

    Re:  your riots are worse than my riots.  See my response above to EDISONPARKS.

    Re:  disputed assertions.  Yup.  We’ll have to agree to disagree here.

    • #111
  22. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    FloppyDisk90 (View Comment):
    I’m not excusing the BLM/Antifa rioters or trying to downplay their significance. I was making a point (attempting at least) about why there is a difference between Biden’s/Harris’ support of BLM/Antifa and attempting to disrupt a Constitutional process.

    There is a difference and it is the type of difference you are trying to describe. Biden/Harris, as far as I can recall, didn’t support rioting, at least not overtly, but supported “peaceful protests”. They didn’t condemn the rioting until some point after large numbers of commercial facilities in several cities were destroyed. Harris is reported to have financially supported funds that helped bail those charged with rioting out of jail.

    I think the President made a misjudgment in encouraging large supportive crowds coming to DC in January. By that time his options were exhausted. But I cannot read his mind and conclude that he was attempting “to disrupt a Constitutional process.” I also cannot conclude that he thought anything like what happened would happen. And reports I have seen place those who violated the Capitol at that location already when he was speaking to the crowd so it hard to fit the action to his words.

    • #112
  23. EDISONPARKS Member
    EDISONPARKS
    @user_54742

    FloppyDisk90 (View Comment):

    EDISONPARKS (View Comment):

    FloppyDisk90 (View Comment):

    lowtech redneck (View Comment):

    WillowSpring (View Comment):

    Exit question: If Trump can be impeached for his words ( which I personally don’t think were incitement to riot), can Biden and Harris be impeached for their words (excusing the riots and vandalism as ‘protests’ and not condemning them) and actions (contributing to the bail fund for the rioters)? If not, why not?

    Impeachment supporters never seem to answer that, for some reason.

    There’s a difference in kind between wink-wink-nod-nodding looting a McDonalds as a senator and wink-wink-nod-nodding breaking and entering the Capitol Building while a session of Congress is attempting to ratify the results of an election as the sitting President, no?

    But if you throw in a burning down a Wendy’s along with the looting of the McDonalds plus add another looting of a Foot Locker would that balance out the moral equivalency equation.

    If that doesn’t balance it out just add in the Antifa take over a portion of the City of Portland then if needed the firebombing of Federal Buildings.

    Somebody has to figure out how each of these acts of looting and rioting should be weighted and measured.

    I’m not excusing the BLM/Antifa rioters or trying to downplay their significance. I was making a point (attempting at least) about why there is a difference between Biden’s/Harris’ support of BLM/Antifa and attempting to disrupt a Constitutional process.

    I was mostly just trying to make a joke about how the MSM narrative of the day is chronic amnesia on the Antifa Leftist riots, looting, takeovers of cities which occurred throughout the year.

    Suddenly the (D)/MSM/Culture Combine declares any protest gone wild when done by non-Leftist is the equivalent of a terrorist seditious violent take over of the government where all people involved must be sought out, detained and prosecuted because … this is much, much different …. because the other Antifa Leftist rioting, looting, etc was not the same …. because …. we say so.

    Now shut up and bend the knee.

    • #113
  24. Gary Robbins Member
    Gary Robbins
    @GaryRobbins

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

    The notion of a Cheney vs. Jordan fight would be most clarifying.

    The three primary supporters of the events last Wednesday were Alabama Representative Mo Brooks, and Arizona Representatives Andy Biggs and Paul Gosar.

    Arizona has a robust constitutional provision for recall. In 2011, Russell Pearce, the President of the State Senate, was recalled over SB 1070. Pearce’s legislative district was in the same area as Representative Biggs congressional district. Brilliantly, the recall organizers had a conservative Republican run against Pearce, and the combined votes of disaffected Republicans and the smattering of Democrats resulted in Pearce’s defeat. Pearce’s attempted comeback the next election was unsuccessful.

    I predict that both Biggs and Gosar will be facing recall elections. There is a Republican who could beat Biggs. Former Senator Jeff Flake represented Biggs’ congressional district for 12 years, before running for the Senate. Flake is a fiscal conservative, but like John McCain and Mitt Romney is hostile to Trump and Trumpism.

    Paul Gosar used to be my Congressman. I have voted for him. I have walked a precinct for him. He now has been redistributed to an adjacent congressional district. I look forward to working against Gosar.

    The recall elections against Biggs and Gosar will be as clarifying as the Cheney v. Jordan race.

    Gary, do you know whether recall of House members is permitted, either by the Constitution or by Arizona statute?

    A.R.S. 19-221 (here) allows a candidate for Senate or Congress to: “file with the secretary of state a statement addressed to the people as follows: ‘If elected to the office (here name the office) I shall deem myself responsible to the people and under obligation to them to resign immediately if not re-elected on a recall vote”, or: “If elected to the office (here name the office) I shall not deem myself under obligation to the people to resign if not re-elected by a recall vote.’” A.R.S. 19-222 (here) allows the recall of a Congressman or Senator who filed such a statement.

    So as a first hurdle, Arizona law does not appear to allow a recall of a Congressman unless he filed such a statement.

    According to this article from the Arizona Capitol Times in 2019, two House members who were subject to a recall effort had not filed such a statement (nor had any of the others elected in 2018). Also, the same article stated: “There is no provision in federal law for recalling members of Congress. And federal courts generally have barred states from imposing such requirements.”

    According to this law review article from 1999 (p. 587-88), only two courts have ruled on the issue: an Idaho state court that found recall of members of Congress to be unconstitutional (in an unpublished opinion); and a Michigan federal court that dismissed a declaratory judgment lawsuit on the issue on jurisdictional and justiciability grounds (without reaching the merits).

    We shall see if Representatives Biggs or Gosar have signed such a statement.  

    • #114
  25. FloppyDisk90 Member
    FloppyDisk90
    @FloppyDisk90

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    FloppyDisk90 (View Comment):
    I’m not excusing the BLM/Antifa rioters or trying to downplay their significance. I was making a point (attempting at least) about why there is a difference between Biden’s/Harris’ support of BLM/Antifa and attempting to disrupt a Constitutional process.

    There is a difference and it is the type of difference you are trying to describe. Biden/Harris, as far as I can recall, didn’t support rioting, at least not overtly, but supported “peaceful protests”. They didn’t condemn the rioting until some point after large numbers of commercial facilities in several cities were destroyed. Harris is reported to have financially supported funds that helped bail those charged with rioting out of jail.

    I think the President made a misjudgment in encouraging large supportive crowds coming to DC in January. By that time his options were exhausted. But I cannot read his mind and conclude that he was attempting “to disrupt a Constitutional process.” I also cannot conclude that he thought anything like what happened would happen. And reports I have seen place those who violated the Capitol at that location already when he was speaking to the crowd so it hard to fit the action to his words.

    I agree that Trump didn’t intend for the riot to happen but in my view he bears responsibility in the same way a person who picks up a gun he knows is loaded and intentionally points it at someone bears responsibility for anything that happens afterward.  Given all of his histrionics preceding the riot and failure to forthrightly deal with it afterwards, I don’t think impeachment is unreasonable or a “deranged overreaction.”

    • #115
  26. Hoyacon Member
    Hoyacon
    @Hoyacon

    FloppyDisk90 (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    FloppyDisk90 (View Comment):
    I’m not excusing the BLM/Antifa rioters or trying to downplay their significance. I was making a point (attempting at least) about why there is a difference between Biden’s/Harris’ support of BLM/Antifa and attempting to disrupt a Constitutional process.

    There is a difference and it is the type of difference you are trying to describe. Biden/Harris, as far as I can recall, didn’t support rioting, at least not overtly, but supported “peaceful protests”. They didn’t condemn the rioting until some point after large numbers of commercial facilities in several cities were destroyed. Harris is reported to have financially supported funds that helped bail those charged with rioting out of jail.

    I think the President made a misjudgment in encouraging large supportive crowds coming to DC in January. By that time his options were exhausted. But I cannot read his mind and conclude that he was attempting “to disrupt a Constitutional process.” I also cannot conclude that he thought anything like what happened would happen. And reports I have seen place those who violated the Capitol at that location already when he was speaking to the crowd so it hard to fit the action to his words.

    I agree that Trump didn’t intend for the riot to happen but in my view he bears responsibility in the same way a person who picks up a gun he knows is loaded and intentionally points it at someone bears responsibility for anything that happens afterward. Given all of his histrionics preceding the riot and failure to forthrightly deal with it afterwards, I don’t think impeachment is unreasonable or a “deranged overreaction.”

    Gosh I have to step in here.  The “gun” thing is a very weak analogy.   Trump has held skads of rallies without incident with the same kind of rhetoric.  There were tens of thousands of people at this rally that did nothing.  It’s pretty obvious that the minute portion of those who did cause the riot (number as yet unknown) had their own agenda.  That’s not on Trump.

    • #116
  27. Gary Robbins Member
    Gary Robbins
    @GaryRobbins

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    Jager (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

    Jager (View Comment):

    No, no they are not subject to recall. Your state Constitution does not over rule the Federal Constitution. There is no provision for recall in the US Constitution and thus no member of the House or Senate has ever been recalled.

    Might be a good idea to allow it, but we would have to amend the US Constitution, not the Arizona Constitution.

    . . .

    That just does not work. The US Constitution does not allow for the recall of Members of Congress. Full Stop.

    No State, through Statute or State Constitutional Amendment, can create a right of Recall nor can any individual member of Congress, through any pledge, agreement or contract, create a right for recall that is not found in the Constitution.

    That is simply not how we amend the Constitution to create new powers.

    I think the Supreme Court Ruling in US Term Limits, inc v Thorton from 1995 says that there is no way to recall a sitting member of Congress.

    Jager, you’re basically right about the Thornton decision, though it is dictum, not a holding. The case is here. The case invalidated an Arkansas constitutional amendment imposing term limits. The quote from the majority opinion is: “The Framers’ decision to reject a proposal allowing for States to recall their own representatives, see 1 Farrand 20, 217, reflects these same concerns.”

    It was a 5-4 decision, with the 4 on the Left plus Kennedy in the majority. However, the dissent — Thomas, joined by Rehnquist, Scalia, and O’Connor — appeared to agree on this point, stating: “The Framers may well have thought that state power over salary, like state power to recall, would be inconsistent with the notion that Congress was a national legislature once it assembled. But state power over initial eligibility requirements does not raise the same concerns . . ..”

    Damn. damn, damn.  Okay, instead of investing energy into recalling Biggs and Gosar, I will invest energy in defending the ten Republican’s Representatives who supported impeachment, and the (hopefully 17+) senators who vote to convict.  I can also work in the primaries against Biggs and Gosar.  (They are in R +15 and R +21 districts.)  Gosar’s district includes Ash Fork, Seligman, Chino Valley and Cottonwood, all about an hour away.)

    • #117
  28. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):
    We shall see if Representatives Biggs or Gosar have signed such a statement.

    Even if they did it would appear to be unenforceable, because Unconstitutional.

    • #118
  29. GFHandle Member
    GFHandle
    @GFHandle

    Brian Watt (View Comment):
    Not exactly a display of courage. A display of calculated appeasement. This actually has nothing to do with Trump. It was a revelation of his personal character

    I have defended Trump for four years–until the post election fiasco. (I am sure there was fraud but doubt it changed the outcome though that is of course possible.) I also value realism in politics. And I absolutely did not think there was any chance whatsover that the senate would fail to certify, thus making any individual move to do so nothing but a grandstand play. Does that mean there is a problem with my character? Maybe Cotton realized that tilting at a windmill was less important than a peaceful transition and an orderly investigation of the election process. Now, partly thanks to Trump, we will get neither since the Republicans in the senate will not have subpoena power.  To put it briefly: if you think as I do that Trump is as done as Nixon was (rightly or wrongly) why is it a show of character to commit political suicide for his lost cause? 

    • #119
  30. Gary Robbins Member
    Gary Robbins
    @GaryRobbins

    aardo vozz (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Gary still thinks members of the House are subject to recall?

    And that Cheney and Jordan are in some kind of competitive race, i.e. election?

    In Arizona they sure are. Before Arizona was admitted as a state in 1912, Arizona was going to be the 47th state and New Mexico would be the 48th state. However, President Taft disagreed with the provision in our Constitution that allowed for the recall of Judges and he vetoed our admission. Arizona then took out the offending provision and President Taft signed our admission on February 14, 2012, making us the “Valentine State.” At the November 2012 election, we added the recall of judges as part of our constitution.

    Cheney is the Republican House Conference Chair. I assume that she can be voted out of her position.

    Not to nitpick, but do you mean February 14,1912?

    Yes.  I will correct.

    • #120
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