A Thirst for Change

 

“Before a man will take a path that leads to a well, you must first teach him the meaning of thirst.” — Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Having worked many years attempting to help those with mental health, addiction, and family issues, the above words have, over time, penetrated my bones.

When you begin to work in the field of “helping others,” you will take for granted that the person you care about wants nothing more than to reach that rejuvenating well –representing recovery from alcoholism or drug addiction, release from depression, freedom from a toxic social or family environment, retreat from a life that revolves around physical pleasure and material things, an end to homelessness, or increased independence overall. But if the person you want to help lacks a desire to truly change (verbal declarations of a willingness to change notwithstanding), you may as well be talking to the wall.

Creating change is not just a problem for the person in distress; it’s equally, if not more of a problem for the caregiver, family member, or friend who wishes to see a change in the other person. The frustration of seeing someone you love stuck in a self-destructive rut is close to unbearable.

So how do you teach someone the meaning of thirst, instill in that person a desire for change? I do not think, except in rare cases, that one person alone can change another. Let me go out on a limb and say that 90 percent (or more) of psychotherapy sessions, in my humble opinion, are a waste of time. I realize psychotherapy is sometimes helpful to some people but, more often than not, it is an exercise in narcissistic self-indulgence encouraged by the therapist. I also do not think that a family member or friend on their own, in the vast majority of cases, can bring about a fundamental change in the life of the one they love.

Before going further, I hereby solicit your story of bringing about or witnessing a major change in another person — or in yourself. How did it happen? Was a support group involved or was it an individual effort? Last but not least, was the change inspired by a spiritual awakening of some kind?

Let me reiterate that it’s my impression, after working in this field for many years, that psychotherapy seldom changes anyone. However, research has shown that if there is one factor that can lead to a positive outcome from one-on-one talk therapy or counseling, it’s the quality of the relationship between the counselor and the one seeking help. Take all your therapeutic theories and techniques and throw them in the discard pile. It’s the relationship that counts.

Based on my experience, however, I have found that the most effective, if not the only way to help the average person change is by connecting that person with a group of people with a similar issue, be it alcoholism, drug addiction, obsession with food, sex, or gambling, life after divorce, grief over the death of a loved one, family dysfunction, childhood abuse, post-traumatic stress, or manic depression. Typically, the leader of a successful group is not a detached psychologist but someone who has been through experiences that match those of the other group members.

The best example of this is the 12-step program for alcoholics or drug addicts. If you want to be inspired, I urge you to attend a meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous (AA), the original 12-step group. The struggles of alcoholics and other addicts will be familiar to you, I promise, since everyone is afflicted by an addiction of some kind. (Note: if you are reading this, you are probably addicted to the Internet to one degree or another; I know I am.) Twelve-step meetings are mainly composed of people standing up and telling their stories. You cannot help but gather strength and feel renewed by the amazing tales of recovery that you hear. AA groups are everywhere — probably in your neighborhood, too, as a quick Internet search will reveal.

Yet a 12-step group is more than a group of individuals spilling their guts; it’s a fellowship, too. Group members become friends and build up their lives together. Online groups or communities may serve a similar function, although contact with group members in the flesh is far more rewarding.

Some have criticized AA for being a cult. This accusation stems in part from the spiritual basis to recovery that is advanced in the AA program for change. Five of the 12 steps invoke G-d explicitly and another step mentions “a Power greater than ourselves.”

(Perhaps step three, if truly internalized, is the most life-changing: “Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of G-d as we understood Him.”)

Let me say here that AA does not fit the definition of a cult for several reasons: there is no guru or leader revered as someone who is closer to the truth than anyone else, money is not solicited nor is a fee charged to attend meetings, anonymity is mandatory, and people are free to come and go, with no stigma attached to those who choose to leave the group.

AA is the clearest demonstration of a starkly ironic truth about human beings: the best way to help yourself is by helping someone else. But helping others is not just for self-improvement. It is a basic human need. When this need is unmet or suppressed, life becomes a burdensome ordeal.

AA was founded in 1935 and grew out of a partnership between Bill Wilson and Bob Smith. Their first meeting would serve as a paradigm for the mentoring relationship that is at the core of AA’s success. Wilson, who had achieved sobriety after a long struggle, had just completed an unsuccessful business trip in Akron, OH, and suddenly felt that the only way he could keep himself from drinking was to help a fellow alcoholic. Wilson, after frantically calling a number of churches, finally located Bob Smith. Wilson shared his story of recovery with Smith and soon Smith would himself become sober and stay that way for the rest of his life.

Wilson’s encounter with Smith set the precedent for AA sponsorship. What happens is that a new member of the group still in the throes of substance abuse or barely sober will connect with a sponsor, someone who has been sober for an extended period of time. Ideally, the sponsor will meet personally with the newcomer once a week and serve as a guide along the path to sobriety. More importantly, the sponsor is available 24/7 to the mentored alcoholic or addict.

The key to the sponsorship relationship is that it is as crucial to the continuing sobriety of the sponsor as it is to the success of the newly sober individual.

A critical lesson taught by AA is that alcoholism, like every other addictive or mental health disorder, is a lifetime proposition. You cannot be cured. The best you can do is learn how to manage your condition. A few days before his death, after not having taken a drink in decades, Bill Wilson, the founder of AA, begged his nurse for whiskey. Recovery is not complete until the day you die.

Recovery through interaction with a group is not limited to alcoholism or addictive disorders. I recently witnessed two remarkable recoveries from manic depression and each of them happened in a group setting. Imagine a young man walking the streets of a major city making offensive remarks to strangers and being picked up by the police on several occasions. Less than a year later, that young man is a full-time student and is engaged to be married. Or consider a young woman in a mental hospital tied down with restraints, able to navigate life in a reasonable fashion two years later with an admiring boyfriend in tow. Both of these success stories happened after the protagonists attached themselves to groups of people with similar struggles.

Teaching someone the meaning of thirst means giving up on being the teacher. Instead, if at all possible, have your loved one make contact with a fellowship of people who will gladly take this mentoring task upon themselves. These will be individuals who finally realized they lacked something, developed a thirst for it and now, having already traveled a distance to find it, want to take others with them along the way.

* * *

I am most curious about success stories in this arena, for the edification of myself and others, and therefore, as I stated at the outset, would love to hear your story of bringing about or witnessing a major change in another person — or in yourself. How did it happen? Was a support group involved or was it an individual effort? Last but not least, was the change inspired by a spiritual awakening of some kind?

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  1. Nanda Panjandrum Member
    Nanda Panjandrum
    @

    Wisdom, as ever, YB-E!  Partnership and relationship are important keys to fruitful encounters…I wonder sometimes about the tendency to see the ‘therapeutic’ as a substitute for the spiritual. Especially in what seems to be an increasingly more fragmented society.  Bless you for your efforts to bring people out of bondage into freedom. Chag Chanukah Sameach!

    • #1
  2. Yehoshua Ben-Eliyahu Inactive
    Yehoshua Ben-Eliyahu
    @YehoshuaBenEliyahu

    Nanda Panjandrum (View Comment):

    Wisdom, as ever, YB-E! Partnership and relationship are important keys to fruitful encounters…I wonder sometimes about the tendency to see the ‘therapeutic’ as a substitute for the spiritual. Especially in what seems to be an increasingly more fragmented society. Bless you for your efforts to bring people out of bondage into freedom. Chag Sameach!

    Your words, as always, are like gentle rain falling on parched places, here and there, without and within.  Chag Sameach, Nanda, and Happy Hannukah!

    • #2
  3. OkieSailor Member
    OkieSailor
    @OkieSailor

    We haven’t dealt with the kind of rock-bottom problems you delineate, however, we did have occasion to help two of our grown children through rough patches. One who had fallen into debt he couldn’t escape and another who failed to graduate at the end of his 5 years of all-expenses paid scholarship. In both cases the guideline I laid down was this. We will do for him whatever he cannot do for himself. What he can do he will do.  In the first case that son moved in with us and used the rent and food cost savings to pay off his debt. Other changes contributed to his future success. In the second case that son moved home and worked the worst kinds of jobs imaginable until he had the funds to complete his degree. In both cases I could have ‘solved’ their problems with checks issued but that would have prevented them from fully understanding how they got into the shape they were and as well as creating dependence when independence was needed. Doing for someone what they can and should do for themselves creates both dependence and false expectations. That line is not always easy to discern but it is important to make the effort.

    • #3
  4. Yehoshua Ben-Eliyahu Inactive
    Yehoshua Ben-Eliyahu
    @YehoshuaBenEliyahu

    OkieSailor (View Comment):
    We haven’t dealt with the kind of rock-bottom problems you delineate, however, we did have occasion to help two of our grown children through rough patches. One who had fallen into debt he couldn’t escape and another who failed to graduate at the end of his 5 years of all-expenses paid scholarship. In both cases the guideline I laid down was this. We will do for him whatever he cannot do for himself. What he can do he will do. In the first case that son moved in with us and used the rent and food cost savings to pay off his debt. Other changes contributed to his future success. In the second case that son moved home and worked the worst kinds of jobs imaginable until he had the funds to complete his degree. In both cases I could have ‘solved’ their problems with checks issued but that would have prevented them from fully understanding how they got into the shape they were and as well as creating dependence when independence was needed. Doing for someone what they can and should do for themselves creates both dependence and false expectations. That line is not always easy to discern but it is important to make the effort.

    It seems that your grit and tough love are what made the difference.

    • #4
  5. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    When I was consulting, I facilitated resolving conflict within teams, and occasionally was asked to coach an individual. With the teams, later in my career, I flat out told the manager that unless he or she was prepared to change the way he interacted with employees, and to hold employees accountable, there was no point in bringing me in. If that person wouldn’t spearhead the change and expect changes from employees, it was a waste of money. I actually learned long-term that some managers actually paid attention and did the work! The other time was coaching a supervisor who was brow-beating employees. She thought sarcasm was humor (not understanding it was angry and hurtful). Her bosses told her she had to change. I coached her to help her identify alternative ways of dealing with issues. Meeting once a week for a couple of months, she was catching herself before she’d blast employees, try less aggressive approaches, and report back to me on her efforts. It was extremely gratifying and I watched her change over time. Her whole appearance changed. I occasionally bumped into her reports who told me she still goofed up but was much easier to work with. It was one of my more satisfying experiences.

    • #5
  6. Yehoshua Ben-Eliyahu Inactive
    Yehoshua Ben-Eliyahu
    @YehoshuaBenEliyahu

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    When I was consulting, I facilitated resolving conflict within teams, and occasionally was asked to coach an individual. With the teams, later in my career, I flat out told the manager that unless he or she was prepared to change the way they interacted with employees, and to hold employees accountable, there was no point in bringing me in. If that person wouldn’t spearhead the change and expect changes from employees, it was a waste of money. I actually learned long-term that the managers actually paid attention and did he work! The other time was coaching a supervisor who was brow-beating employees. She thought sarcasm was humor (not understanding it was anger and hurtful). Her bosses told her she had to change. I coached her to help her identify alternative ways of dealing with issues. Meeting once a week for a couple of months, she was catching herself before she’d blast employees, try less aggressive approaches, and report back to me on her efforts. It was extremely gratifying and I watched her change over time. Her whole appearance changed. I occasionally bumped into her reports who told me she still goofed up but was much easier to work with. It was one of my more satisfying experiences.

    Very impressive.  Is your field industrial psychology?

    • #6
  7. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    Yehoshua Ben-Eliyahu (View Comment):

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    When I was consulting, I facilitated resolving conflict within teams, and occasionally was asked to coach an individual. With the teams, later in my career, I flat out told the manager that unless he or she was prepared to change the way they interacted with employees, and to hold employees accountable, there was no point in bringing me in. If that person wouldn’t spearhead the change and expect changes from employees, it was a waste of money. I actually learned long-term that the managers actually paid attention and did he work! The other time was coaching a supervisor who was brow-beating employees. She thought sarcasm was humor (not understanding it was anger and hurtful). Her bosses told her she had to change. I coached her to help her identify alternative ways of dealing with issues. Meeting once a week for a couple of months, she was catching herself before she’d blast employees, try less aggressive approaches, and report back to me on her efforts. It was extremely gratifying and I watched her change over time. Her whole appearance changed. I occasionally bumped into her reports who told me she still goofed up but was much easier to work with. It was one of my more satisfying experiences.

    Very impressive. Is your field industrial psychology?

    Nope. And I made sure to practice coaching not therapy, too. I received a master’s degree in organizational behavior and studied a lot on human behavior. And also, my extensive background in Buddhism was helpful!

    • #7
  8. Yehoshua Ben-Eliyahu Inactive
    Yehoshua Ben-Eliyahu
    @YehoshuaBenEliyahu

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):
    And also, my extensive background in Buddhism was helpful!

    You have aroused my curiosity.  Please explain how Buddhism helps in conflict resolution.

    • #8
  9. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    Yehoshua Ben-Eliyahu (View Comment):

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):
    And also, my extensive background in Buddhism was helpful!

    You have aroused my curiosity. Please explain how Buddhism helps in conflict resolution.

    That could take a while! Basically, I’d point to the Four Noble Truths: Life is suffering (we insist on wanting what we want), There is a cause of that suffering (we try to get rid of what we don’t want and crave those things we don’t have and try to hold on to the good stuff), There’s something we can do about it (we begin to realize that our own clinging to these ideas we have causes the suffering) And there’s something we can do about it (which Buddhism says is the 8-fold path. I didn’t see Buddhism so much as a religion as more of a philosophy. Most of it doesn’t conflict with Judaism. Even though there is no central focus on G-d, I maintained that connection. So with my training programs, I often taught that we are the source of most of our conflict, which actually empowers us (we can change how we “hold” or see it). Glad to answer further, if you wish.

    • #9
  10. Yehoshua Ben-Eliyahu Inactive
    Yehoshua Ben-Eliyahu
    @YehoshuaBenEliyahu

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):
    I often taught that we are the source of most of our conflict

    Yes, yes, yes.  You may be familiar with the “miracle question.”  You ask the conflicted person what it would be like if a miracle occurred over night and tomorrow morning, upon waking up, everything you ever wanted was suddenly available.  Everything about the world that needed to be changed was changed.  You ask. “What would you feel at that moment?  Would you be happier?”  Almost always, after thinking for a while, you get a blank look.  Hopefully, the person begins to understand that by focusing on external circumstances, your basic attitude about things never changes.  It’s all about what is going on inside, which only you can change.

    • #10
  11. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    Yehoshua Ben-Eliyahu (View Comment):
    Hopefully, the person begins to understand that by focusing on external circumstances, your basic attitude about things never changes. It’s all about what is going on inside, which only you can change.

    Precisely right!

    • #11
  12. iWe Coolidge
    iWe
    @iWe

    I find it interesting that you emphasize the relationship between the therapist and the patient. I could not agree more wholeheartedly – it is people, not institutions or programs, that touch other people.

    One problem, of course, is that all-too-often therapists and patients become entangled.

     

    • #12
  13. iWe Coolidge
    iWe
    @iWe

    As an inveterate and incurable contrarian, I am not improved through group interaction. My strong core instinct is to always disagree with any group, with a degree of pig-headedness that, upon reflection, is quite extreme. As a child I would disagree so strongly with the group that as a last show of rebellion I would hold my breath until I fainted.

    My own journey has been led by my marriage to Mrs. iWe (and by extension, to G-d), prayer and the Torah.  My respect for others and their unique creative gifts came in adulthood, and only after much Torah study and conversations with G-d.

    I still fear and lash out at any group that displays consensus of thought. Even when they are good people doing good things. Hence my defense in recent years of people like Harvey Weinstein; I cannot abide villagers with pitchforks.

    • #13
  14. La Tapada Member
    La Tapada
    @LaTapada

    An Al-Anon group (for family and friends of alcoholics) has turned my life around. It has given me new ways of viewing issues and dealing with them (and not just for dealing with the alcoholic and the drug user in my life).

    I would say that another reason that AA or Al-Anon is not a cult is because we are admonished not to correct each other in meetings, not to tell others that they are doing it wrong. We are only to share how we have found peace ourselves.

    I don’t have a personal experience of working with a therapist, but Andrew Klavan recounts his own therapy experience, in his autobiographical book, The Great Good Thing, and how therapy changed his life. He often mentions it in his podcasts too, particularly when responding to letters from listeners. (I highly recommend the book.)

    • #14
  15. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    Excellent post! Thank you!

    My only personal experience is losing over 30 pounds on Weight Watchers. I made it a point never to miss a meeting and took advantage of all the recipes and “rewards” and kept the weight off long enough to receive my lifetime membership. Actually kept it off for years afterwards, but have since struggled with health issues and am on my way up again.

    But, after reading this, I think WW would benefit greatly from a sponsorship model similar to AA. It would be very helpful to be able to call someone when you’re coming up with excuses not to exercise or when that cheesecake beckons from the garage fridge…

     

    • #15
  16. Yehoshua Ben-Eliyahu Inactive
    Yehoshua Ben-Eliyahu
    @YehoshuaBenEliyahu

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):
    I think WW would benefit greatly from a sponsorship model similar to AA. It would be very helpful to be able to call someone when you’re coming up with excuses not to exercise or when that cheesecake beckons from the garage fridge

    The AA model is really extraordinary with the 24/7 sponsor availability.  With all the digital media at our fingertips, you would think that there will soon be such a service available for people in every kind of distress.  I know there are suicide prevention hotlines.  I wouldn’t be surprised if someone comes up with an algorithm where, no matter what the issue, you could find someone somewhere willing to talk to you at any hour of the day or night concerning your particular challenge.

    • #16
  17. Yehoshua Ben-Eliyahu Inactive
    Yehoshua Ben-Eliyahu
    @YehoshuaBenEliyahu

    La Tapada (View Comment):
    Andrew Klavan recounts his own therapy experience, in his autobiographical book, The Great Good Thing, and how therapy changed his life.

    I’m sure it would be illuminating to see how that success was achieved.

    Clicking around on the Internet, I see that Klavan attributes his success in overcoming depression to forcing himself to make contact with other people, both individually and in groups, despite a very shy nature.  Depression is a vicious circle since it often leads to isolation which deepens the depression which intensifies the isolation.  Yet only by making contact with others can depression be alleviated.

    • #17
  18. Yehoshua Ben-Eliyahu Inactive
    Yehoshua Ben-Eliyahu
    @YehoshuaBenEliyahu

    iWe (View Comment):
    As an inveterate and incurable contrarian, I am not improved through group interaction.

    Yes, and I am like you in that respect, but if we were alcoholics or addicts, we might feel differently.

    It’s instructive that in Judaism a quorum of ten is needed in order to properly pray.  There is something about a group that creates unique access to the divine.

    • #18
  19. MarciN Member
    MarciN
    @MarciN

    I’ve always wondered if the reason group therapy is so successful is that it minimizes the defensiveness in the participants so they can actually focus on constructive thoughts.

    I’m speaking mostly as a mom here. I used to chuckle that if I needed to make a point to one kid, I would often talk to one of the others within earshot of the kid I was trying to reach. I started doing this somewhat by accident when I realized one day that one of my other kids was listening intently to something I was saying to her sister. I thought that was interesting.

    It led me to realize that one-on-one conversations can get emotional, especially in the adviser-“advisee” relationship. But listening to others work through a similar problem can be really helpful to the listeners.

     

    • #19
  20. Nanda Panjandrum Member
    Nanda Panjandrum
    @

    @marcin, having cut my budding-psychologist teeth in the “group therapy days” of the 1970s, I have to say that the built-in social pressures to bond, confide, connect, and correct led me away from the therapeutic to the overtly spiritual in chaplaincy.  

    As well, a brief experience with various addiction-support models, caused me to wonder whether the aspect of self-labeling – even decades after the referenced behavior has ceased – may well be counterproductive. 

    (I have also witnessed the strong spiritual support offered by “Twelve-Steppers” to members. One of the patients in the physical rehab unit where I was chaplain asked if I’d coordinate with our activities director to arrange meetings with his group for him while in the hospital: We did just that.) 

    • #20
  21. MarciN Member
    MarciN
    @MarciN

    Nanda Panjandrum (View Comment):

    @marcin, having cut my budding-psychologist teeth in the “group therapy days” of the 1970s, I have to say that the built-in social pressures to bond, confide, connect, and correct led me away from the therapeutic to the overtly spiritual in chaplaincy.

    As well, a brief experience with various addiction-support models, caused me to wonder whether the aspect of self-labeling – even decades after the referenced behavior has ceased – may well be counterproductive.

    (I have also witnessed the strong spiritual support offered by “Twelve-Steppers” to members. One of the patients in the physical rehab unit where I was chaplain asked if I’d coordinate with our activities director to arrange meetings with his group for him while in the hospital: We did just that.)

    That’s an interesting point. I have wondered if having to label oneself perhaps keeps some people away from treatment. I’m sure that’s true in some cases.

    • #21
  22. Yehoshua Ben-Eliyahu Inactive
    Yehoshua Ben-Eliyahu
    @YehoshuaBenEliyahu

    MarciN (View Comment):
    if I needed to make a point to one kid, I would often talk to one of the others within earshot of the kid I was trying to reach

    This is definitely part of what makes the group dynamic successful.  It’s much easier to accept criticism when it completely fits you as long as it’s being directed at someone else.

    • #22
  23. Yehoshua Ben-Eliyahu Inactive
    Yehoshua Ben-Eliyahu
    @YehoshuaBenEliyahu

    Nanda Panjandrum (View Comment):
    a brief experience with various addiction-support models, caused me to wonder whether the aspect of self-labeling – even decades after the referenced behavior has ceased – may well be counterproductive.

    You make an excellent point.  Carrying around a label can definitely be self-defeating, but it would appear that the people who succeed in those groups don’t have that problem.  Maybe you have to be a hard core alcoholic or drug addict and, after hitting rock bottom, finally reach a level of humility where you can stand up in front of a group and confess your imperfection (“I’m an alcoholic”), so to speak, without embarrassment or damage to your self-image.

    It’s interesting that the word “spirits” means intoxicating drink.  I think that alcoholics and addicts generally have enormous spiritual potential.  They stay with their booze or drugs because it keeps them in a world beyond the mundane.

    • #23
  24. iWe Coolidge
    iWe
    @iWe

    Yehoshua Ben-Eliyahu (View Comment):

    iWe (View Comment):
    As an inveterate and incurable contrarian, I am not improved through group interaction.

    Yes, and I am like you in that respect, but if we were alcoholics or addicts, we might feel differently.

    Perhaps. In my case, I doubt it very much.

    It’s instructive that in Judaism a quorum of ten is needed in order to properly pray. There is something about a group that creates unique access to the divine.

    I think it has to do with connections – that recognizing the divine in others is a way to connect to the divine in itself.

    Nevertheless, orthodox prayer, as you know, is often people who happen to be together, with no clear interaction between them – 10+ men each praying in their own tallis and space. I have davenned for years with the same men, and I am quite sure that none of us could name all the others. This is not interaction on the level of group therapy, or even much of group anything.

     

    • #24
  25. Yehoshua Ben-Eliyahu Inactive
    Yehoshua Ben-Eliyahu
    @YehoshuaBenEliyahu

    iWe (View Comment):
    I have davenned (prayed) for years with the same men, and I am quite sure that none of us could name all the others. This is not interaction on the level of group therapy, or even much of group anything.

    But don’t you feel an obligation to show up for the sake of the other guys?

    • #25
  26. iWe Coolidge
    iWe
    @iWe

    Yehoshua Ben-Eliyahu (View Comment):

    iWe (View Comment):
    I have davenned (prayed) for years with the same men, and I am quite sure that none of us could name all the others. This is not interaction on the level of group therapy, or even much of group anything.

    But don’t you feel an obligation to show up for the sake of the other guys?

    That entirely depends on the numbers. In my current town, there is never any doubt except in the event of massive snowfall.

    • #26
  27. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    iWe (View Comment):
    I still fear and lash out at any group that displays consensus of thought. Even when they are good people doing good things. Hence my defense in recent years of people like Harvey Weinstein; I cannot abide villagers with pitchforks.

    Yehoshua Ben-Eliyahu (View Comment):
    It’s instructive that in Judaism a quorum of ten is needed in order to properly pray. There is something about a group that creates unique access to the divine.

    iWe (View Comment):
    Nevertheless, orthodox prayer, as you know, is often people who happen to be together, with no clear interaction between them – 10+ men each praying in their own tallis and space. I have davenned for years with the same men, and I am quite sure that none of us could name all the others. This is not interaction on the level of group therapy, or even much of group anything.

    Far be it for me to meddle (!), but I think you two are speaking past each other because you have a couple of topics going. It sounds, Yehoshua, like you see benefit to group interactions, and @iwe, not so much. But I think you both agree that there is great benefit to  praying with others, if not pursuing therapy. Just think about the services you hold at Yom Kippur, or even the seder meals. These would not be the same without others. I also know you both value community in the larger sense. After all, family and friends can be considered community. Just being together, regardless of the degree of interaction, brings us closer to Hashem. No?

    • #27
  28. iWe Coolidge
    iWe
    @iWe

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):
    Just think about the services you hold at Yom Kippur, or even the seder meals. These would not be the same without others. I also know you both value community in the larger sense. After all, family and friends can be considered community. Just being together, regardless of the degree of interaction, brings us closer to Hashem. No?

    You are right.

    • #28
  29. Maddy Member
    Maddy
    @Maddy

    As a faithful member of a 12 step program, I have seen many aha moments. People, by actually saying things out loud come to important realizations, and others by listening to the story can see things in themselves that they hadn’t known.

    • #29
  30. Nanda Panjandrum Member
    Nanda Panjandrum
    @

    Maddy (View Comment):

    As a faithful member of a 12 step program, I have seen many aha moments. People, by actually saying things out loud come to important realizations, and others by listening to the story can see things in themselves that they hadn’t known.

    Glad your experience has been fruitful! :-)   My contact with some of it – as a group phenomenon – was more reflective of this, unfortunately…

    • #30
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