Ricochet Member Recommended FeedRecommended by R> Members

The Church’s Ongoing Gay Orgy

 
Cardinal Francesco Coccopalmerio

Not a headline I take any pleasure in writing but arguably quite accurate and descriptive of the crisis that threatens to utterly destroy the Catholic Church and all that portends – especially the possible disintegration of the good charitable work and the medical care the Church provides.

The news of a cocaine-fueled gay orgy in the same Vatican building that houses the offices of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith* broke in July of 2017, four years into Francis’ papacy. Priests engaging in this orgy and their guests, some of whom may have been male prostitutes, were arrested by Vatican police. About a month ago, it came to light that, Cardinal Francesco Coccopalmerio was present at the orgy and was given an opportunity to leave the scene by the police rather than be arrested.

Coccopalmerio was, and may still be, a close confidant of Pope Francis and submitted his resignation in April 2018 which was accepted by Francis but it should be noted that he had not been defrocked. If this was simply one incident of a high-ranking cardinal who hadn’t been punished after being exposed as immersed in a rampant homosexual lifestyle or sexual predatory behavior, the non-punishment of Coccopalmerio could be considered an aberration and perhaps attributed to the slow grinding of bureaucratic gears for clerical punishment or because Francis is so terribly busy with matters like Climate Change, immigration, or watering down the liturgy.

Pope Francis, who has already expressed “who am I to judge?” when responding to questions about the active homosexual Vatican clergy (referred to as the Lavender Mafia) did not defrock Coccopalmerio immediately upon learning of the CDF orgy. Many months passed by without action by the pope even if it could be said that he took action at all since Coccopalmerio submitted his resignation.

In the video below, Dr. Taylor Marshall and Timothy Gordon explore the extent of the homosexual heresy that has been poisoning the Church. Estimates of the number of homosexual priests, as they discuss, could exceed 50% of the male clergy in America (half of whom are carrying on active gay relationships) which may cause one to ask the following questions: Just how many gay lovers some priests, bishops, and cardinals have or have had? How many boys and young seminarians have been preyed upon and warped into being deceitful to the faith? How many clerical orgies have there been or continue to occur and whether any of them featured overtly satanic rituals?

When the Pope expresses on the one hand, “Who am I to judge?” (which seems to support Bergoglio’s previous record of coddling or defending homosexual priests) while on the other hand espousing a “zero-tolerance” policy for clerical sexual abuse, one could logically assume that ‘zero tolerance’ only applies to sexual predation of children by clerics but not zero tolerance for the active homosexual lifestyle or even militant homosexual and LGBT activism in which many priests, bishops and cardinals engage. If there truly was a zero-tolerance policy for the latter, Francis would have set the Church on a path for healing and restoration and the re-establish of the institution as a moral compass for the world as soon as he ascended to the throne of Peter. That has not happened.

In the research for my novel, one of the startling images, among many, that I encountered during the fire that consumed San Francisco after the 1906 earthquake was that of the hundreds of rats that would emerge and scurry away from buildings in the city that became engulfed in flames. As Pope Francis, Bergoglio had not just an opportunity but a holy obligation to purge the Church of the evil men who have infected it and continue to invite darkness. Unfortunately, his papacy, now moving into its sixth year, can be accurately described as ambiguous, duplicitous, tepid and possessed by the permissive and corrosive ideology of the Left. When Archbishop Carlo Maria Vigano and some of his other brother bishops and priests demand light and action, Francis counsels silence and plays the victim card by comparing Vigano to Satan – the Great Accuser.

From John 2:13-22:

The Passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. In the temple he found those who were selling oxen and sheep and pigeons, and the money-changers at their business. And making a whip of cords, he drove them all, with the sheep and oxen, out of the temple; and he poured out the coins of the money-changers and overturned their tables.  And he told those who sold the pigeons, “Take these things away; you shall not make my Father’s house a house of trade.”

The trade that thousands of men in the Church (and some who have Francis’ ear) have been plying for decades far exceeds the evil that Jesus encountered when he cleared the temple in Jerusalem. Francis has the opportunity to act more like Christ and emulate His example. If this never happens, one has to ask who Francis really serves and whether the rats will ever flee as the Church burns.


*The Office of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith is the office that investigates allegations of sexual abuse by the clergy. Cardinal Müller of Germany previously ran the office before Francis replaced him. Müller had been investigating a gang rape of a young girl that allegedly included the late Cardinal Murphy-O’Connor of England and a group of priests. Murphy-O’Connor’s diocese financially settled with the victim. Francis interrupted Müller as he was celebrating Mass and insisted that he halt his investigation. Murphy-O’Connor was a member of the St. Galen Mafia — a group of cardinals who actively campaigned to make Bergoglio the Pope.

Published in General
This post was promoted to the Main Feed by a Ricochet Editor at the recommendation of Ricochet members. Like this post? Want to comment? Join Ricochet’s growing community of conservatives and be part of the conversation. Get your first month free.

There are 123 comments.

  1. 1
  2. 2
  3. 3
  4. 4
  5. 5
  1. Thatcher

    The laity should abandon the church. Stop giving money. Leave it. Only that will force it to change. It was so 500 years ago.

    • #1
    • November 7, 2018 at 2:42 pm
    • 5 likes
  2. Member

    I asked the question over on the Ricochet Catholics Group if this was an issue the US bishops will tackle in their upcoming meeting next week in Baltimore. Pope Francis is wrong when he says the problem is clericalism. It is obviously a problem with homosexual predator priests and if the problem isn’t confronted next week, the bishops will lose all credibility – and they don’t have much left.

    • #2
    • November 7, 2018 at 2:45 pm
    • 6 likes
  3. Member
    Brian Watt Post author

    Scott Wilmot (View Comment):

    I asked the question over on the Ricochet Catholics Group if this was an issue the US bishops will tackle in their upcoming meeting next week in Baltimore. Pope Francis is wrong when he says the problem is clericalism. It is obviously a problem with homosexual predator priests and if the problem isn’t confronted next week, the bishops will lose all credibility – and they don’t have much left.

    From Monsignor Charles Pope’s article in National Catholic Register cited in the OP:

    The faith is openly betrayed and denied by renegade bishops—even whole conferences of bishops—and heads of religious orders. Synods sow confusion and division rather than clarity or unity.

    And Taylor Marshall tweeting about the upcoming offering for the CCHD (to Bryan’s point above):

    • #3
    • November 7, 2018 at 2:55 pm
    • 5 likes
  4. Thatcher

    Not Catholic, but all this is very depressing. And that is the creepiest picture I’ve seen in a long time.

    • #4
    • November 7, 2018 at 3:05 pm
    • 14 likes
  5. Member
    Brian Watt Post author

    Bruce Caward (View Comment):

    Not Catholic, but all this is very depressing. And that is the creepiest picture I’ve seen in a long time.

    Yes, it’s massively depressing.

    • #5
    • November 7, 2018 at 3:15 pm
    • 4 likes
  6. Coolidge

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    The laity should abandon the church. Stop giving money. Leave it. Only that will force it to change. It was so 500 years ago.

    Not going to happen. I will never leave Christ because of Judas. The Catholic Church is the church established by Christ. Of course satan would LOVE to take down the bride of Christ. What is happening is the action of men, not the church, which is Christ. The laity are aware of the battle ahead of us and we will fight as Jesus himself said he would not abandon his church. 

    • #6
    • November 7, 2018 at 3:31 pm
    • 14 likes
  7. Coolidge

    Brian Watt (View Comment):

    Scott Wilmot (View Comment):

    I asked the question over on the Ricochet Catholics Group if this was an issue the US bishops will tackle in their upcoming meeting next week in Baltimore. Pope Francis is wrong when he says the problem is clericalism. It is obviously a problem with homosexual predator priests and if the problem isn’t confronted next week, the bishops will lose all credibility – and they don’t have much left.

    From Monsignor Charles Pope’s article in National Catholic Register cited in the OP:

    The faith is openly betrayed and denied by renegade bishops—even whole conferences of bishops—and heads of religious orders. Synods sow confusion and division rather than clarity or unity.

    And Taylor Marshall tweeting about the upcoming offering for the CCHD (to Bryan’s point above):

    I already tossed that envelope out. I only give my weekly contribution to the parish, anything accociated with the USCCB gets tossed.

    • #7
    • November 7, 2018 at 3:33 pm
    • 8 likes
  8. Thatcher

    Bruce Caward (View Comment):

    Not Catholic, but all this is very depressing. And that is the creepiest picture I’ve seen in a long time.

    That picture brings to mind a line from the movie We’re no Angels: “You could get arrested just for the way you look.”

    • #8
    • November 7, 2018 at 3:41 pm
    • 2 likes
  9. Thatcher

    Brian Watt (View Comment):

    Bruce Caward (View Comment):

    Not Catholic, but all this is very depressing. And that is the creepiest picture I’ve seen in a long time.

    Yes, it’s massively depressing.

    It is depressing, but I used the wrong word. I’m not Catholic, but never-the-less I look to venerable institutions to give structure to the world. Also maybe a hope of Truth, and Beauty. 

    This is . . . . heartbreaking.

    • #9
    • November 7, 2018 at 4:13 pm
    • 8 likes
  10. Member

    I’m a pretty crappy Catholic.

    Not a real good Christian.

    I’d kinda/sorta like my bishops, cardinals, and popes to be better Catholics and Christians than me.

    Apparently, not going to happen.

    • #10
    • November 7, 2018 at 4:53 pm
    • 15 likes
  11. Thatcher

    Mate De (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    The laity should abandon the church. Stop giving money. Leave it. Only that will force it to change. It was so 500 years ago.

    Not going to happen. I will never leave Christ because of Judas. The Catholic Church is the church established by Christ. Of course satan would LOVE to take down the bride of Christ. What is happening is the action of men, not the church, which is Christ. The laity are aware of the battle ahead of us and we will fight as Jesus himself said he would not abandon his church.

    Had the Reformation not happened, the Catholic Church would not have reformed.

    It is absurd to think that they will change as log as they are supported.

    And. I consider my Church to be as founded by Christ as any other Christian Faith. 

    • #11
    • November 7, 2018 at 5:14 pm
    • 8 likes
  12. Member

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):
    The laity should abandon the church

    Ain’t gonna happen partner.

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):
    And. I consider my Church to be as founded by Christ as any other Christian Faith.

    Well then you ought to study history a bit more. I don’t know what your church is but Christ only founded one Church – the Catholic Church.

    • #12
    • November 7, 2018 at 5:35 pm
    • 5 likes
  13. Thatcher

    Scott Wilmot (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):
    The laity should abandon the church

    Ain’t gonna happen partner.

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):
    And. I consider my Church to be as founded by Christ as any other Christian Faith.

    Well then you ought to study history a bit more. I don’t know what your church is but Christ only founded one Church – the Catholic Church.

    Are you saying that non Catholics are not Christian? That there is not a universal catholic church?

     

    • #13
    • November 7, 2018 at 5:42 pm
    • 4 likes
  14. Member

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):
    Are you saying that non Catholics are not Christian? That there is not a universal catholic church?

    No, I did not say that. Christ founded one Church – the Catholic Church. The Orthodox and Luther split from that Church. The Catholic Church recognizes valid baptisms from other ecclesial communions, meaning that those individuals validly baptized are Christian, but not in full communion with the Catholic Church. As we believe: extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

    If we are saved, it will be through the Catholic Church – the Church of Christ.

    • #14
    • November 7, 2018 at 5:48 pm
    • 5 likes
  15. Thatcher

    Scott Wilmot (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):
    Are you saying that non Catholics are not Christian? That there is not a universal catholic church?

    No, I did not say that. Christ founded one Church – the Catholic Church. The Orthodox and Luther split from that Church. The Catholic Church recognizes valid baptisms from other ecclesial communions, meaning that those individuals validly baptized are Christian, but not in full communion with the Catholic Church. As we believe: extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

    If we are saved, it will be through the Catholic Church – the Church of Christ.

    We are saved through Christ and Christ alone, not a Church of men. Baptism does not save souls. Rituals does not save souls. Commuion with a corrupt organization of men does not save souls. 

    • #15
    • November 7, 2018 at 5:51 pm
    • 7 likes
  16. Moderator

    I suppose Pope Castro (both as in Valley & as in Fidel) is just going issue indulgences for depravity so we have the full renaissance Pope experience

    Just curious – can the Pope order you to sin? 

    • #16
    • November 7, 2018 at 5:53 pm
    • Like
  17. Member

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):
    We are saved through Christ and Christ alone, not a Church of men. Baptism does not save souls. Rituals does not save souls. Commuion with a corrupt organization of men does not save souls. 

    Well, the first Pope disagrees with you.

    For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him. (1 Peter 3:18-22)

    To call the Church of Christ a corrupt organization is ridiculous. Certainly there are corrupt men within her, but the Church is the Body of Christ – She is not corrupt.

    • #17
    • November 7, 2018 at 6:01 pm
    • 7 likes
  18. Thatcher

    Scott Wilmot (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):
    We are saved through Christ and Christ alone, not a Church of men. Baptism does not save souls. Rituals does not save souls. Commuion with a corrupt organization of men does not save souls.

    Well, the first Pope disagrees with you.

    For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him. (1 Peter 3:18-22)

    To call the Church of Christ a corrupt organization is ridiculous. Certainly there are corrupt men within her, but the Church is the Body of Christ – She is not corrupt.

    The Pope is a man, period. He is a much a sinner, and as capable of error as any other man. The Catholic Church, as in the thing with the Pope and telling people they cannot have a direct relationship with God without intercession and such, that is a organization of men, as fallen as anything else in this world. Baptism is a symbolic act, not some magic ritual that saves me. It is a demonstration of my faith, not a cause of salvation. 

    Giving money to an organization that tolerates gay orgies while claiming to mandate sexual chastity is not how you get the organization to live up to its ideals. That is not logical. 

    Finally, I reject the idea that the Pope has any better or more special relationship with Christ than I can. That was s

    • #18
    • November 7, 2018 at 6:14 pm
    • 3 likes
  19. Member
    Brian Watt Post author

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Scott Wilmot (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):
    We are saved through Christ and Christ alone, not a Church of men. Baptism does not save souls. Rituals does not save souls. Commuion with a corrupt organization of men does not save souls.

    Well, the first Pope disagrees with you.

    For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him. (1 Peter 3:18-22)

    To call the Church of Christ a corrupt organization is ridiculous. Certainly there are corrupt men within her, but the Church is the Body of Christ – She is not corrupt.

    The Pope is a man, period. He is a much a sinner, and as capable of error as any other man. The Catholic Church, as in the thing with the Pope and telling people they cannot have a direct relationship with God without intercession and such, that is a organization of men, as fallen as anything else in this world. Baptism is a symbolic act, not some magic ritual that saves me. It is a demonstration of my faith, not a cause of salvation.

    Giving money to an organization that tolerates gay orgies while claiming to mandate sexual chastity is not how you get the organization to live up to its ideals. That is not logical.

    Finally, I reject the idea that the Pope has any better or more special relationship with Christ than I can. That was s

    More than symbolic just as the Eucharist and the other sacraments are more than symbolic. From Catholic Answers:

    …the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: “The Lord himself affirms that baptism is necessary for salvation [John 3:5]. . . . Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament [Mark 16:16]” (CCC 1257). 

    The Christian belief that baptism is necessary for salvation is so unshakable that even the Protestant Martin Luther affirmed the necessity of baptism. He wrote: “Baptism is no human plaything but is instituted by God himself. Moreover, it is solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we shall not be saved. We are not to regard it as an indifferent matter, then, like putting on a new red coat. It is of the greatest importance that we regard baptism as excellent, glorious, and exalted” (Large Catechism 4:6). 

    • #19
    • November 7, 2018 at 6:20 pm
    • 3 likes
  20. Member

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):
    The Pope is a man, period. He is a much a sinner, and as capable of error as any other man. The Catholic Church, as in the thing with the Pope and telling people they cannot have a direct relationship with God without intercession and such, that is a organization of men, as fallen as anything else in this world. Baptism is a symbolic act, not some magic ritual that saves me. It is a demonstration of my faith, not a cause of salvation. 

    When did the Catholic Church tell people they can’t have a direct relationship with God? Have you ever heard of Holy Communion, when we receive the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ – there is no greater direct relationship.

    The Church is supernatural Bryan – it is the Body of Christ. The Church is Holy, it’s members are fallen. And baptism, like the other sacraments are a reality – an outward sign of Christ’s grace – we don’t see anything magical at all about them.

    • #20
    • November 7, 2018 at 6:21 pm
    • 5 likes
  21. Member

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):
    Finally, I reject the idea that the Pope has any better or more special relationship with Christ than I can. That was s

    Who ever said that?

    Don’t spew out nonsense without giving some sources – that is embarrassing.

    • #21
    • November 7, 2018 at 6:23 pm
    • 1 like
  22. Thatcher

    Scott Wilmot (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):
    The Pope is a man, period. He is a much a sinner, and as capable of error as any other man. The Catholic Church, as in the thing with the Pope and telling people they cannot have a direct relationship with God without intercession and such, that is a organization of men, as fallen as anything else in this world. Baptism is a symbolic act, not some magic ritual that saves me. It is a demonstration of my faith, not a cause of salvation.

    When did the Catholic Church tell people they can’t have a direct relationship with God? Have you ever heard of Holy Communion, when we receive the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ – there is no greater direct relationship.

    The Church is supernatural Bryan – it is the Body of Christ. The Church is Holy, it’s members are fallen. And baptism, like the other sacraments are a reality – an outward sign of Christ’s grace – we don’t see anything magical at all about them.

    The Catholic Church, based in Rome, is not supernatural, Scott. It is a human organization. 

    It is no more supernatural than my church. 

     

     

    • #22
    • November 7, 2018 at 6:32 pm
    • Like
  23. Member

    Scott Wilmot (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):
    Are you saying that non Catholics are not Christian? That there is not a universal catholic church?

    No, I did not say that. Christ founded one Church – the Catholic Church. The Orthodox and Luther split from that Church. The Catholic Church recognizes valid baptisms from other ecclesial communions, meaning that those individuals validly baptized are Christian, but not in full communion with the Catholic Church. As we believe: extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

    If we are saved, it will be through the Catholic Church – the Church of Christ.

    The arguments nothing new. Protestants and Catholics Raped and killed each other by the millions and this was one of the two or three main sticking points at why. You are not going to convince anyone.

    My theology says Jesus is the only head of the church per Revelations, and the Church are the believers who follow and obey Jesus commands, not a building or any organization. All though there is nothing wrong with formal large organized associations of believers. Its just when that organization is more important than loving your neighbor and fellow believers that it becomes demonic. There is only one Church but the reference is to Jesus not a formal organization. Then again I am not going to change your mind so I don’t know why I even bother. Its said how some Catholic teachings nullifies Jesus teachings and even the cross. The Catholic church could be so great and powerful if went back to what they believed before the dark ages. Almost all the bad theology protestants hate in the Catholic church, was concocted in the dark and middle ages.

    • #23
    • November 7, 2018 at 7:02 pm
    • 3 likes
  24. Member

    Brian Watt (View Comment):

    Scott Wilmot (View Comment):

    I asked the question over on the Ricochet Catholics Group if this was an issue the US bishops will tackle in their upcoming meeting next week in Baltimore. Pope Francis is wrong when he says the problem is clericalism. It is obviously a problem with homosexual predator priests and if the problem isn’t confronted next week, the bishops will lose all credibility – and they don’t have much left.

    From Monsignor Charles Pope’s article in National Catholic Register cited in the OP:

    The faith is openly betrayed and denied by renegade bishops—even whole conferences of bishops—and heads of religious orders. Synods sow confusion and division rather than clarity or unity.

    And Taylor Marshall tweeting about the upcoming offering for the CCHD (to Bryan’s point above):

    Haven’t given to CCHD since I learned of its relationship with Saul Alinsky and the kinds of things CCHD donations fund.

    • #24
    • November 7, 2018 at 7:12 pm
    • 4 likes
  25. Member

    Getting to the heart of the OP (and I could toss in a chapter for the rest of this convo – seriously, all of you, stop attacking each other for you are brothers in Christ and members of Christ’s body, his church. It does not matter if Apollos or Paul or Timothy baptized you. We all follow the Lord Jesus Christ)

    Clearly, not enough churches spent enough time in I Corinthians and spent an inordinate amount of time in II Corinthians 13 – to the exclusion of all other scripture.

    I’ve been reading it because a lot of the problems are relevant to the Episcopal church, but the Catholic church also.

    Chapters 4-7 are highly relevant (heck the whole book is!) It just takes a little yeast to spoil the whole batch? So remove it all? Who said you are not to judge those in the church?!? You shouldn’t judge those outside the church! For they have not been saved by our Lord Christ. Let God judge them.

    Any guilty of any sexual impurity among you, THROW HIM OUT.

    That the Pope has so thoroughly shown himself a fool with scripture is shameful.

    • #25
    • November 7, 2018 at 7:23 pm
    • 6 likes
  26. Member

    Using a less combative — and less invested — approach than Bryan’s, I think my question would be essentially the same:

    How do Catholics plan to save Catholicism (the Holy Church) from its current bureaucracy (the unholy administration of the Holy Church)?

    Is there a way that good Catholics can desert the rotten administration and move The Church to a more pure foundation? If not, how do you kick out the self-sustaining corruption that has more or less taken over very levers of power one would otherwise look to to clean it up?

    From a secular agnostic point of view, the conundrum that Catholics have made for themselves is confusing imperfect men for Holy vessels to the point that even when the unholiness of those men is as plain as day, it’s become impossible for the laity to separate them from the notion of “The Church.”

    • #26
    • November 7, 2018 at 7:37 pm
    • 4 likes
  27. Coolidge

    Dorrk (View Comment):

    Using a less combative — and less invested — approach than Bryan’s, I think my question would be essentially the same:

    How do Catholics plan to save Catholicism (the Holy Church) from its current bureaucracy (the unholy administration of the Holy Church)?

    Is there a way that good Catholics can desert the rotten administration and move The Church to a more pure foundation? If not, how do you kick out the self-sustaining corruption that has more or less taken over very levers of power one would otherwise look to to clean it up?

    From a secular agnostic point of view, the conundrum that Catholics have made for themselves is confusing imperfect men for Holy vessels to the point that even when the unholiness of those men is as plain as day, it’s become impossible for the laity to separate them from the notion of “The Church.”

    This isn’t a conundrum Catholics made for ourselves. This is demonic. Catholicism isn’t a political system or country it is the Bride of Christ. The church established by Christ after the resurrection, maintained through the apostolic succession of the papacy. Because Of the fall man is flawed and has corrupted Christ’s Church at various times throughout millennia. The only way to combat this rot is through supernatural forces, praying the rosary, fasting, being in a state of grace. This is the way to defeat the demonic But if you don’t believe in God then you likely don’t believe in the devil and it is hard to understand.

    • #27
    • November 7, 2018 at 9:03 pm
    • 6 likes
  28. Member

    Mate De (View Comment):

    Dorrk (View Comment):

    Using a less combative — and less invested — approach than Bryan’s, I think my question would be essentially the same:

    How do Catholics plan to save Catholicism (the Holy Church) from its current bureaucracy (the unholy administration of the Holy Church)?

    Is there a way that good Catholics can desert the rotten administration and move The Church to a more pure foundation? If not, how do you kick out the self-sustaining corruption that has more or less taken over very levers of power one would otherwise look to to clean it up?

    From a secular agnostic point of view, the conundrum that Catholics have made for themselves is confusing imperfect men for Holy vessels to the point that even when the unholiness of those men is as plain as day, it’s become impossible for the laity to separate them from the notion of “The Church.”

    This isn’t a conundrum Catholics made for ourselves. This is demonic. Catholicism isn’t a political system or country it is the Bride of Christ. The church established by Christ after the resurrection, maintained through the apostolic succession of the papacy. Because Of the fall man is flawed and has corrupted Christ’s Church at various times throughout millennia. The only way to combat this rot is through supernatural forces, praying the rosary, fasting, being in a state of grace. This is the way to defeat the demonic But if you don’t believe in God then you likely don’t believe in the devil and it is hard to understand.

    Good luck with that? If it’s a demonic force that only supernatural means can defeat, that’s a pretty easy out. Catholics thereby absolve themselves of any responsibility for continuing to support a corruption that has taken a heavy toll on children. You can pray, but who are you praying to? If God was going to do something to stop this, why hasn’t he done it already? It is, after all, his only valid church, right? He doesn’t seem bothered. Will more prayer wake Him up?

    Your other claim is better: that this is the result of normal human corruption, so why not use normal human means to combat it? Find a dramatic way to signal to the corrupt defilers of Catholicism that they don’t represent the real church and you won’t be having them as your false intermediaries any longer. I truly don’t get how continuing to support a vast and harmful bastardization of true Catholicism is in any way productive. It’s like enabling corrupt leaders is baked into Catholicism at a theological level.

    • #28
    • November 7, 2018 at 9:46 pm
    • 3 likes
  29. Member

    Ladies and Gentlemen, might this Lutheran be so brash as to suggest that we return this thread to its original intent. Whatever denomination or religion you or I subscribe to, what’s going on in the Roman Catholic church is a horrible tragedy, and the leadership is failing miserably in stopping it.

    I don’t mean to suggest that the arguments now being made here aren’t important. They’re huge. But we’re exactly one week past the 508th anniversary of Luther’s posting of the 95 Theses in Wittenberg. This is not the thread to debate the definition of the Bride of Christ, the Invisible Church, etc. And I suggest that before somebody starts a thread on that subject, he or she had best do a thorough study of 10th thru 16th centuries’ history. This thread isn’t the time or place.

    • #29
    • November 7, 2018 at 10:17 pm
    • 7 likes
  30. Moderator

    I asked an honest question – how far does obedience to the Pope go? Could the Pope demand that you do something wicked? If you witnessed the gay orgy, could he order you to be silent?

    As the papacy is a monarchy, I am trying to see how much deference the Pope gets. I mean, could Bergoglio defrock/excommunicate Vigano for criticizing him, and all Catholics would have to go along with it?

    This is something I am curious about since the the previous two popes (all the ones during my life) were righteous men who showed a deep moral sense. This pope is different, and it raises questions that I thought were left to the dustbin of history.

    • #30
    • November 7, 2018 at 10:54 pm
    • 5 likes
  1. 1
  2. 2
  3. 3
  4. 4
  5. 5