Our Diversity Is Our Strength

 

shutterstock_143305756Connecting a few dots here…

Violent Islamic terrorists and often-violent Black Lives Matter hangers-on are self-organizing through peer-to-peer networks, and as a result, they can strike quicker and faster than governments can manage. Terrorists are agile, while the blue-state model of government is not. Terrorist live in a post-industrial world while our first responders still hobble around in the outmoded, industrial-age shackles of centralized, top-down planning and strategy.

But it doesn’t need to be that way. Thanks to the empowerment of the Internet and the smartphone, we are becoming less and less reliant on central government for how we live our lives. Why, therefore, can’t we use peer-to-peer networking and decentralized response to our advantage? Just as Uber and AirBnB turn our consumer goods into something that helps others, we can turn the smartphone and the concealable defensive pistol into something that protects ourselves and others. We have smartphone apps that can show us the stupid places where stupid people are doing the stupid things that might get us in trouble, and we have apps that will summon help from our friends if we chose to ignore the warning signs and go there anyways or if bad things happen to us despite all our planning. We can carry a portable, concealable means of defending ourselves and our loved ones from lethal force and also carry a portable, concealable means of keeping people alive if the worst happens and lethal force is used against us.

Nature has shown us that the best way to defeat a non-localized attack is with a non-localized response. Our bodies react to the threats of infection and disease with a scattered and yet networked response of white blood cells and other defense mechanisms. The time is long overdue for society to empower a dispersed response to the dispersed threat of modern-day terrorism.

Power to the people. All the people.

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  1. Skyler Coolidge
    Skyler
    @Skyler

    @HVTs

    We may not choose to be at war with radical Islam, but it has chosen to be at war with us. This is not over by a long shot no matter who is in charge.

    Unless we continue to refuse to fight, that is.  Then it will end the wrong way.

    • #31
  2. James Of England Inactive
    James Of England
    @JamesOfEngland

    HVTs:

    James Of England: The government of Tunisia is one of the Middle East’s better governments, but there’s a bunch of Tunisians in ISIS;

    Ahh, would that “better government” be the one that harassed and humiliated a street vendor, whose self-immolation resulted in the 23-year Tunisian regime collapsing almost overnight, and sparked the so-called Arab Spring?

    That was Ben Ali. As you apparently know, this led to a revolution, which led to the overthrow of Ben Ali and his replacement by Moncef Marzouki of the Congress for the Republic party in 2011. Marzouki failed to get reelected, so was replaced by Beji Essebsi, of the Call of Tunisia party at the end of 2014.

    Judgments about what’s “better” in Middle East governance always recall for me Jimmy Carter toasting the Shah of Iran for the “stability” he brought to the region. Then there was Secretary Clinton feting Assad and deposing Qaddafi. Or Obama welcoming the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. I’m afraid the Davos set doesn’t get this stuff right very often.

    I think it’s a shame that we didn’t support the Shah more; Iran, Israel, the Middle East, and large chunks of the rest of the world would have been happier and more peaceful if we had. I agree that the feting of Assad was awful. I’m not sure that the impact of the West was to depose Qaddafi so much as it was to make the civil war short rather than long and painful (sadly, there was then a second phase, but that appears to be wrapping up, too). Have you read Hamid’s Temptations of Power? It’s one of the best books on modern Middle Eastern history, about the changes within the MB during the elections. At the height of Obama’s praise, the MB wasn’t running a Presidential candidate because they thought it would be better for Egypt to have a secular ruler. Then it appeared that the Salafists were going to win, and they became the equivalent of Reluctant Trumpers. It’s partly because of the suddenness of that swing that they came up with the awful candidate they did.

    Davos didn’t select the Tunisian government. Tunisians did, and it’s a shame that you’re not more familiar with one of the more positive stories of Middle Eastern success in government. They’re a target for terrorism, which is doing awful things to their tourist industry, but they’re a  target for the right reasons.

    For these and other reasons, it’s helpful to formulate strategy differently for dealing with the threats we face today than to the strategies that worked out well for us in the 1940s.

    Your strawman is Obama-esque and suggests a level of strategic confusion similar to the President’s. To say that geo-strategy has not been made anew simply because of technology and globalized markets is not to argue that Germany is occupying Paris and Japan Manchuria.

    I agree that technology and globalized markets have only changed things, rather than changing them absolutely. My claim, and I believe Kevin’s, was merely that the nature of our enemies encourages us to have a greater focus on self defense on the home front. That’s not because of technology; shooters and bombers don’t generally use anything more complicated than the Nazis, but because of the nature of the struggle. I’m not sure how globalized markets came into the picture.

    • #32
  3. James Of England Inactive
    James Of England
    @JamesOfEngland

    Skyler:@James of England

    i think you are imagining what did or did not happen regarding the Iraqi and afghan governments. What I was suggesting is that we had no business creating those governments. We hadn’t even finished fighting and we had already allowed these corrupt politicians to make us their puppet government.

    I don’t understand who you think should have been providing state pensions or running the courts from 2003 to, say, 2010.

    Why, when we are fighting Islamic terrorism, did we establish Islamic republics? We have no obligation to make all the people of the world free, but we have a moral duty to implant the Bill of Rights in any nation we conquer.

    The Bill of Rights is stronger in Iraq, where they have a right to bear arms, than it is in Europe. We established Republics full of Muslims because…. well, what else do you do when you have a country full of Muslims? If we left them in any way with a Democratic system, it would have been an Islamic one. It wouldn’t have been (and is not) a Saudi-like system, because Iraq isn’t Saudi. When I worked for the Iraqi government, most of my peers were women and only a few wore burqas. They drove about, had conversations with men by themselves, and generally acted in the way that you’d expect of mildly observant Baptist women in the US (which is to say that they didn’t drink and weren’t slutty).

    We had Iran surrounded and we let them operate quite freely instead of threatening them.

    I agree that it would have been good to have been tougher on the Iranians.

    We should have finally done something about Iran and let Israel take on Syria back when we were strong and Russia was still afraid and weak.

    I have no idea what you think the Israelis could have done with Syria. Wiped out the Syrian military and then…..?

    As a free people, our greatest weakness is the attention span of our people. They will support any cost of war so long as they think it is necessary and we are serious about winning. We cannot fight multi generational wars the way we have. We need to fight total war and finish in four years. If we can’t justify total war, then we have no business fighting. Never in our history have we had a more urgent reason for war than after 9/11.

    You say that, but we still have troops in Afghanistan 15 years later, we won the war in Iraq (there was peace while I was there from 2010 to 2011 and until the ISIS invasion in 2014). There’s now a second war in Iraq that appears to be nearing its end, scheduled for some time in early 2017. We were impatient in Libya, mostly pulling out after Qaddafi fell, but that merely delayed victory rather than causing defeat; ISIS is no longer able to operate as a state in Libya and the government is in a pretty good position to hold its united elections next year. In each of those three conflicts we put far too little effort into civilian aid, the State Department failing  to do its part even as Defense excelled at its, but in each eventual victory seems to be the result. The Democrats in Congress lost the war in Vietnam after it had been won and today we have a considerably more patriotic Congress.

    We spend hundreds of billions on this war while the enemy spends a couple million. That cannot be sustained.

    I think you underestimate how asymetric this war is (also, that you underestimate ISIS and AQ’s budgets, but you’re right that they’re far lower). America’s economy is trundling along, while ISIS is facing existential budget issues along with other existential issues. This model has proven less sustainable for them than for us. Even after AQ and ISIS are defeated in their Afghan, Syrian, Libyan, Malian, Nigerian, Iraq etc. etc. etc. territorial schemes, we’ll still have to fight them, but it won’t generally have to involve large scale military movements.

    • #33
  4. James Of England Inactive
    James Of England
    @JamesOfEngland

    Doctor Robert:

    Eugene Kriegsmann:

    HVTs:

    Eugene Kriegsmann: I have to disagree. The reason that there are no frontlines is that we are not fighting a nation or nations, we are fighting against ideas…

    You missed the point completely. The Nazis and Japanese were nations with homelands that they were defending, and which we could attack and defeat. Who do you plan to attack in this situation? Whose cities will you bomb? Whose army and navy will you fight? You obiously do not understand asymetical warfare, something very different than WWII.

    Everyone misses the point on this matter. Modern terrorism is a response to the dictates of Islam. The way to preserve our civilization is to eliminate Islam. This being impossible, make the cost to Isalm intolerable. This could be done in a week.

    A serious POTUS would declare war on Saudi Arabia, close the borders to Muslims, expel visiting Muslims and arrest a few imams in Dearborn and Newark. He would take out Saudi oil transfer facilities on Day 1. Now the money stops.

    Day 2, offer peace when terrorism ends. Warn the world that every terror act against the West earns another Saudi city used for ICBM target practice.

    Day 3, In response to the inevitable lone wolf attack, do it. Lather, rinse, repeat.

    The Clash of Civilizations ends in a week, with us as winner. We have the resources; we merely lack the will.

    You know that AQ’s primary goal is to topple the government of Saudi, right? If we offer to nuke a Saudi city every time they attack, we would be transforming AQ from a losing group with little hope of accomplishing meaningful gains to being the most powerful terrorist group in history, with a very real chance of accomplishing anything they could ask for. The Saudis would have to make each and every reform AQ could ask of them, knowing that to fight the terrorists would be to invite nuclear anhilation.

    • #34
  5. James Of England Inactive
    James Of England
    @JamesOfEngland

    HVTs:

    James Of England: We toppled the last government that allowed AQ to operate comfortably within its borders

    We created the vacuum enabling AQ to blossom in Iraq. Your premise turns on a false narrative.

    We toppled the Taliban. It’s true that AQ was successful for a while in Iraq, but they were so uncomfortable that they were mostly driven out; we haven’t had much AQ presence in Iraq for a long time.

    the benefit to America to winning in Afghanistan … is that the next time we fight a war like this, people on the fence will know that we have the resolve to finish the war.

    By “finish” do you mean “win”? We already are on the path to finishing without victory. Only someone in a comfortable arm chair can so blithely suggest reversing that—who’s blood are you offering up?

    I meant win. I’ve been attacked by AQ (in Iraq). My blood was shed (admittedly in very small quantities, but this wasn’t a controlled environment and I could have suffered a serious or fatal wound as easily as I suffered a small one). If I could go back, I would. It’s likely that when the Iraqi political circumstances that prevent me from going out cease to apply, I will.

    Our elected CINC has spent eight years proving the exact opposite—that we precisely do not have “resolve” to win. Instead, he resolved to release captured illegal combatants so that they can return to killing the troops he commands. He recovered a lone deserter at the cost of five senior enemy leaders.

    I think that that was awful, but even while we’ve had a terrible CinC, we’ve seen Muslim armies defeating AQ with American and other Western support in theater after theater. More recently, we’ve seen ISIS being defeated around the world. Also, honorable mention should be made of the Christian Ethiopian military in Somalia.

    We elected this buffoon not once but twice. And your answer is now to send more kids to lose limbs and their lives so that we can reverse this clear expression of our abject lack of national will to win?

    The nation is about to pick either Clinton or Trump. Both of them have advocated a vigorous commitment to defeating ISIS. Clinton is the more likely to win (60/40 according to today’s 538), and advocates a strong commitment to defeating AQ abroad, too.

    Do you have military-aged progeny your offering up for this insanity? Is ‘next-time-resolve’ worth that price to you? Or is this a good idea provided someone else picks up the blood-tab?

    No, but, again, I was out there myself somewhat recently and plan to return at first opportunity. When I have kids of an age where they are able to engage in that sort of thing, I absolutely intend to send or encourage them (depending on their age and level of independence) to do things to prepare themselves for a military career that I would be proud for them to have. I’d be proud if they went to a school designed to prepare them for the military, as I did,  following in the footsteps of my father and my grandfather. I celebrate the decisions of my closest childhood friend (Navy) and cousin (Household Cavalry) to pursue their vocations. Both have done tours of Afghanistan, my cousin’s vehicle being disabled by an IED, although he was thankfully not one of those killed in the blast.

    Let’s reinstitute the draft so ALL families can share the burden imposed by this stupidity.

    I’ve shared in the burden, personally, and my family has shared in the burden (even before you start looking at historical conflicts). The draft is an awful idea for a variety of reasons, but your efforts to turn this into an ad hominem issue are poorly grounded.

    • #35
  6. HVTs Inactive
    HVTs
    @HVTs

    Doctor Robert: Modern terrorism is a response to the dictates of Islam.

    Terrorism doesn’t have an ancient and a modern variant, unless you simply mean the weapons or tools employed by terrorists today as opposed to some long ago yesterday.  But that’s a misuse of the temporal modifier.

    Terrorism is a tactic, one employed by the weak to negate the superior strength of an adversary.  Radical elements within the vast Islamic world employ this tactic not because they are Islamic, but because they are weak relative to their adversaries.

    • #36
  7. HVTs Inactive
    HVTs
    @HVTs

    James Of England: I’ve shared in the burden, personally, … your efforts to turn this into an ad hominem issue are poorly grounded.

    I’m afraid you missed my point: why encourage anyone to fight in a war the CINC is determined to lose?  In which the CINC actively undermines the troops he commands?  Why should anyone’s blood be shed in a cause for which our national leaders have no intention to prevail?

    I should have thought that obvious enough you would understand that your position could only make sense if you personally had skin in the game.  Hence my questions.  Apparently you do.  It’s illogical, but it’s your life.

    Personally, I have an aversion to giving my life for a cause my own leaders are uninterested in winning.  And an aversion to leaders asking others to do so.  You apparently don’t have this aversion . . . can’t say as I understand it and certainly don’t grasp the logic behind it.  I hope you’ll not get the opportunity to face harm over something your President doesn’t want to win, but you don’t need my help making that decision should the opportunity arise.  Godspeed.

    Why you believe Clinton’s statements about her war aims is a mystery to me. She’s Obama’s third term; Obama claimed AFG was the ‘right’ war to win when running for office in 2008.  Lucy is holding your football.

    • #37
  8. HVTs Inactive
    HVTs
    @HVTs

    James Of England: … it’s a shame that you’re not more familiar with one of the more positive stories of Middle Eastern success in government. They’re a target for terrorism, which is doing awful things to their tourist industry, but they’re a target for the right reasons.

    Is it?  What knowledge do you imagine I’d gain were my putative ignorance lifted?  What is your point about Tunisia vis-a-vis this post?

    • #38
  9. Doctor Robert Member
    Doctor Robert
    @DoctorRobert

    James Of England: You know that AQ’s primary goal is to topple the government of Saudi, right? If we offer to nuke a Saudi city every time they attack, we would be transforming AQ from a losing group with little hope of accomplishing meaningful gains to being the most powerful terrorist group in history, with a very real chance of accomplishing anything they could ask for.

    Who cares?

    I know that is one of their goals, the others including killing you and me and our families as Christians.  Which is primary, I don’t know.

    And I don’t care.

    So long as the Islamists are:

    1. Not responsible for the energy needs of our civilization,

    2. Not messing with us, and

    3. Kept at arm’s length,

    they can choose to do whatever they like in their sun-kissed sand traps.

    You will note that my proposal addresses all of these points.

    Under my method, AQ might inherit the Saudi mantle, but they would enjoy it for only as long as they were able to maintain a true peace.  That’s not the picture of a successful terrorist group, nor of a caliphate.

    • #39
  10. Doctor Robert Member
    Doctor Robert
    @DoctorRobert

    HVTs:

    Doctor Robert: Modern terrorism is a response to the dictates of Islam.

    Terrorism doesn’t have an ancient and a modern variant, unless you simply mean the weapons or tools employed by terrorists today as opposed to some long ago yesterday. But that’s a misuse of the temporal modifier.

    Terrorism is a tactic, one employed by the weak to negate the superior strength of an adversary. Radical elements within the vast Islamic world employ this tactic not because they are Islamic, but because they are weak relative to their adversaries.

    Yes?  So?

    When they’ve nukes, they will no longer be weak relative to their adversaries.  So we must keep them weak, make them dead, and make their colleagues quit the fight, before they get their nukes from Mrs Clinton’s sale of uranium to Russia which is transferring it to Iran for processing in the centrifuges about which Mr Kerry and Mr Obama so desperately lie.

    Or from Pakistan, China, or the Norks.

    These are desperate times and require desperate measures.  Whining about the etymology of my term “modern terrorism” doesn’t help.

    What I meant was terrorism happening in the modern world.  Now.  Yesterday.  Today.  In NYC, in Jersey, Minnesota, Paris and Nice.  In Belgium, whose airport and subway I used a year before they were savaged.  In Madrid, where I visited Atocha station.  In Copenhagen, where I visited Krudttønden.  In Boston, where my wife and I dined on Boyleston St Friday night.

    Modern terrorism.

    Krudttønder Shooting Site

    • #40
  11. James Of England Inactive
    James Of England
    @JamesOfEngland

    HVTs:

    James Of England: I’ve shared in the burden, personally, … your efforts to turn this into an ad hominem issue are poorly grounded.

    I’m afraid you missed my point: why encourage anyone to fight in a war the CINC is determined to lose?

    I don’t think that he was terribly determined; as the Democrats did with Vietnam, he had it in his power to cause a loss if he wished (he could have withdrawn the troops faster, or withdrawn support for the Iraqi government financially and institutionally as well as being a jerk rhetorically). He could have failed to provide airpower and other support against ISIS. Instead, while he hasn’t been great, he’s done enough that ISIS has now been repelled from most of Iraq. Likewise although he could have followed through on his commitment to withdraw from Afghanistan he put that withdrawal on hold.

    In which the CINC actively undermines the troops he commands? Why should anyone’s blood be shed in a cause for which our national leaders have no intention to prevail?

    I think Obama intends to prevail. At the very least his generals do and he’s not getting in the way enough to prevent them from succeeding.

    I should have thought that obvious enough you would understand that your position could only make sense if you personally had skin in the game. Hence my questions. Apparently you do. It’s illogical, but it’s your life.

    Personally, I have an aversion to giving my life for a cause my own leaders are uninterested in winning. And an aversion to leaders asking others to do so. You apparently don’t have this aversion . . . can’t say as I understand it and certainly don’t grasp the logic behind it. I hope you’ll not get the opportunity to face harm over something your President doesn’t want to win, but you don’t need my help making that decision should the opportunity arise. Godspeed.

    Why you believe Clinton’s statements about her war aims is a mystery to me. She’s Obama’s third term; Obama claimed AFG was the ‘right’ war to win when running for office in 2008. Lucy is holding your football.

    I think Obama was somewhat surprised on taking office. If you read the accounts of the relevant Cabinet Secretaries he’d been pretty seriously uninterested in the wars when he took office and became only moderately uninterested afterwards. That moderate level of interest was enough to keep enough troops in Iraq to win the first war by 2010/2011, and enough for most of Afghanistan to be stabilized. It’s my understanding that Clinton was generally superior on these issues as SoS; she didn’t get her way all the time, but she was generally arguing on the side of supporting the troops and defeating AQ/ ISIS. I suspect that she’d be a mild improvement on Obama on these questions, as might Trump be. It’s not great, but thankfully the ISIS portions of the conflict appear to be mostly over, so they’ll probably get that right. I’m less hopeful about Afghanistan, but I suspect that Clinton would see the Afghan government through.

    • #41
  12. Doctor Robert Member
    Doctor Robert
    @DoctorRobert

    James Of England: I don’t think that he was terribly determined; as the Democrats did with Vietnam, he had it in his power to cause a loss if he wished (he could have withdrawn the troops faster, or withdrawn support for the Iraqi government financially and institutionally as well as being a jerk rhetorically). He could have failed to provide airpower and other support against ISIS. Instead, while he hasn’t been great, he’s done enough that ISIS has now been repelled from most of Iraq.

    Balderdash.

    Mr Obama has done as little as he can get away with in order to preserve the illusion that he is on our side, so that his successor and collaborator can be elected and finish the job he started.  She’s effectively promised to withdraw all of our troops; on day 2 of that project, ISIS walks back into Iraq.

    • #42
  13. James Of England Inactive
    James Of England
    @JamesOfEngland

    Doctor Robert:

    James Of England: You know that AQ’s primary goal is to topple the government of Saudi, right? If we offer to nuke a Saudi city every time they attack, we would be transforming AQ from a losing group with little hope of accomplishing meaningful gains to being the most powerful terrorist group in history, with a very real chance of accomplishing anything they could ask for.

    Who cares?

    Most obviously, AQ cares, as do their funders. They’ve been suffering lately and have tremendous budget issues. Making it clear that they would see victory if they could pull off just one serious attack on the West practically guarantees that that attack would take place. As it is, it’s perfectly plausible that AQ will die without a second 9/11 scale success.

    I know that is one of their goals, the others including killing you and me and our families as Christians. Which is primary, I don’t know.

    And I don’t care.

    So long as the Islamists are:

    1. Not responsible for the energy needs of our civilization,

    Just to be clear, you think that nuking Saudi would help with that? Is this some sort of environmentalist “after oil prices go through the roof we’ll find alternatives” thing? I mean, not that Iran and Venezuela wouldn’t appreciate your support….

    2. Not messing with us, and

    Do you mean after the attack you would inspire? Even after AQ get their dreams and start to focus exclusively on regional enemies out of fear of the West, are you under the impression that they’re the only group out there? Heck, AQ making a serious bid for rulership of Mecca would be reason alone for others to want the US to nuke Saudi some more.

    3. Kept at arm’s length,

    they can choose to do whatever they like in their sun-kissed sand traps.

    I don’t understand how your proposal comes close to encouraging them to do this. It seems to me that there is essentially nothing that would reduce interest in America less than murdering vast numbers of civilians as retribution for something most of those civilians opposed.

    You will note that my proposal addresses all of these points.

    Under my method, AQ might inherit the Saudi mantle, but they would enjoy it for only as long as they were able to maintain a true peace. That’s not the picture of a successful terrorist group, nor of a caliphate.

    AQ don’t claim that they’re a caliphate yet. Putting them in charge of Saudi is one of the few ways that you could rescue that dream for them.

    • #43
  14. James Of England Inactive
    James Of England
    @JamesOfEngland

    Doctor Robert:

    James Of England: I don’t think that he was terribly determined; as the Democrats did with Vietnam, he had it in his power to cause a loss if he wished (he could have withdrawn the troops faster, or withdrawn support for the Iraqi government financially and institutionally as well as being a jerk rhetorically). He could have failed to provide airpower and other support against ISIS. Instead, while he hasn’t been great, he’s done enough that ISIS has now been repelled from most of Iraq.

    Balderdash.

    Mr Obama has done as little as he can get away with in order to preserve the illusion that he is on our side, so that his successor and collaborator can be elected and finish the job he started. She’s effectively promised to withdraw all of our troops; on day 2 of that project, ISIS walks back into Iraq.

    She’s talked about taking out ground troops, but she’s long been a supporter of supporting the Iraqi Security Forces and of using air power and drones. It wasn’t ground troops that stopped ISIS last time and it’s not likely that Iraq would be surprised a second time. Also, she’s been a consistent supporter of more vigorous action in Syria since 2011, and if ISIS is defeated in Syria they’d lack a base from which to attack Iraq.

    I agree that Obama has generally tried to minimize his efforts. Thankfully the US military is awesome enough that even inept and half hearted support for it has been enough to avoid defeat (albeit not enough to avoid tragedy and atrocity).

    • #44
  15. James Of England Inactive
    James Of England
    @JamesOfEngland

    HVTs:

    James Of England: … it’s a shame that you’re not more familiar with one of the more positive stories of Middle Eastern success in government. They’re a target for terrorism, which is doing awful things to their tourist industry, but they’re a target for the right reasons.

    Is it? What knowledge do you imagine I’d gain were my putative ignorance lifted? What is your point about Tunisia vis-a-vis this post?

    My claim was that ISIS wasn’t defined by nationality. You responded to my claim by suggesting that Tunisia was currently ruled by Ben Ali. It’s not particularly important for the purposes of this thread that you familiarize yourself with Tunisia, but I think that it would be a good idea in general for people to be familiar with the highs as well as the lows in the current conflict.

    • #45
  16. Doctor Robert Member
    Doctor Robert
    @DoctorRobert

    James Of England:

    James, Please read what I wrote, not what you think I wrote.

    We have an enemy.  He wants to kill us.

    To prevail, we must kill him; destroy his support; keep his actors away from my children and yours.

    You got a better idea, I am all ears.  Or eyes, as the case may be.

    G’night.

    • #46
  17. James Of England Inactive
    James Of England
    @JamesOfEngland

    Doctor Robert:

    James Of England:

    James, Please read what I wrote, not what you think I wrote.

    I do endeavor to do so.

    We have an enemy. He wants to kill us.

    Sure. And a lot of other people.

    To prevail, we must kill him; destroy his support; keep his actors away from my children and yours.

    I’m broadly with you here.

    You got a better idea, I am all ears. Or eyes, as the case may be.

    I’m in awe of our government’s ability to keep us safe since 9/11. We’ve had smart engineers fail to blow up planes because of TSA-like restrictions (the shoe bomber, the Paris plot bombers (the guys who wanted to use liquids), and the underpants bomber were each undone by their efforts to circumvent the screening process). We’ve had many, many people keen to kill us in large numbers. Nice reminds us that it’s not so hard. And yet, the biggest terrorist hit on us so far this decade has been Omar Mateen’s 49 dead. If that had happened last decade, it would have been the second biggest, after 9/11. In the 1990s, it would have been the second biggest, after the OKC bombing. In the 1980s, it would have been the third biggest, after the Lockerbie and Beirut bombings. Those weren’t just slightly bigger, but much so. Our military casualties overseas are down pretty heavily, too. “What we’re doing right now” seems like a reasonable response, given that ISIS appears to be being defeated everywhere it exists, and AQ has also been having a pretty rough time of it lately.

    If you broaden the question to include BLM, I’d say more “what we did 30-20 years ago”, but I think your focus is more Middle Eastern.

    G’night.

    Good night!

    • #47
  18. HVTs Inactive
    HVTs
    @HVTs

    James Of England: It’s not great, but . . .

    You get my vote for slim-reed grasping.  I’m inclined to the view that this is another U.S. “decent interval” episode.  Ten years from now it will matter as much to the fate of the nation as our inglorious 1975 departure from Saigon meant in 1985.

    • #48
  19. HVTs Inactive
    HVTs
    @HVTs

    James Of England:My claim was that ISIS wasn’t defined by nationality. You responded to my claim by suggesting that Tunisia was currently ruled by Ben Ali. It’s not particularly important for the purposes of this thread that you familiarize yourself with Tunisia, but I think that it would be a good idea in general for people to be familiar with the highs as well as the lows in the current conflict.

    Who argues ISIS is “defined” by nationality?  The opposite is more nearly true.

    How from my comment you perceived the ‘suggestion’ Ben Ali is still in charge when the precise point made concerned his political demise . . . that’s mysterious.  I was responding to this:

    The government of Tunisia is one of the Middle East’s better governments, but there’s a bunch of Tunisians in ISIS; the difference between people trying to build a civilized society in Tunisia is not nationality or even a broad category of religion … It’s a specific set of political/ religious ideas. That’s a genuine difference from WWII.

    How that all coheres is clearly too sublime for me as I can’t make sense of it.  The fact that Tunisia has disaffected radicals despite earnest attempts to build a civilized society … that’s surprising? In North Africa?  Where nationality doesn’t involve a “specific set of political/religious ideas”?  Huh?

    • #49
  20. Ontheleftcoast Inactive
    Ontheleftcoast
    @Ontheleftcoast

    Kevin Creighton: We have smartphone apps that can show us the stupid places where stupid people are doing the stupid things that might get us in trouble,

    Sketchfactor is apparently dead. Gone from Apple, not on Google Play, company website gone. Shows the power of crowds and disapproval, I guess.

    I Walton: Don’t we try to kill tumors before they metastasize, not one cell at a time.

    That’s plan B, in which we hire other human beings to implement relatively clumsy procedures and processes. Plan A is immune surveillance and the tumors never form.

    • #50
  21. James Of England Inactive
    James Of England
    @JamesOfEngland

    HVTs:

    James Of England: It’s not great, but . . .

    You get my vote for slim-reed grasping.

    I feel like the defeat of ISIS as a state-like organization is a big deal rather than a slim reed. Likewise the improvement in the position of the Afghan government, rather than its collapse.

    I’m inclined to the view that this is another U.S. “decent interval” episode. Ten years from now it will matter as much to the fate of the nation as our inglorious 1975 departure from Saigon meant in 1985.

    I feel like the American loss in Vietnam was a very big deal in 1985. Heck, it was a key reason for Bin Laden to believe that he’d prevail in 2001, and for later fighters to believe that they would in Iraq. If we’d had a better 1974 mid-term, the war in Iraq would have been comparatively brief.

    • #51
  22. James Of England Inactive
    James Of England
    @JamesOfEngland

    HVTs:

    James Of England:My claim was that ISIS wasn’t defined by nationality. You responded to my claim by suggesting that Tunisia was currently ruled by Ben Ali. It’s not particularly important for the purposes of this thread that you familiarize yourself with Tunisia, but I think that it would be a good idea in general for people to be familiar with the highs as well as the lows in the current conflict.

    Who argues ISIS is “defined” by nationality? The opposite is more nearly true.

    I feel like you can most easily answer your question by going back through the thread. I was claiming that this was a key difference between ISIS and Nazi Germany.

    How from my comment you perceived the ‘suggestion’ Ben Ali is still in charge when the precise point made concerned his political demise . . . that’s mysterious. I was responding to this:

    I made a present day reference to the government of Tunisia being pretty good and you suggested that that government was the one that engaged in an act that Ben Ali engaged in.

    The government of Tunisia is one of the Middle East’s better governments, but there’s a bunch of Tunisians in ISIS; the difference between people trying to build a civilized society in Tunisia is not nationality or even a broad category of religion … It’s a specific set of political/ religious ideas. That’s a genuine difference from WWII.

    How that all coheres is clearly too sublime for me as I can’t make sense of it. The fact that Tunisia has disaffected radicals despite earnest attempts to build a civilized society … that’s surprising? In North Africa? Where nationality doesn’t involve a “specific set of political/religious ideas”? Huh?

    Tunisia is not like Nazi Germany, where America’s enemies controlled the government. Rather, a relatively small minority of Tunisians is still large enough to constitute a significant chunk of ISIS, because ISIS isn’t very big. As such, Tunisia is not our enemy, but some Tunisians are. In WWII, Germany was our enemy, not merely a handful of Germans with disagreeable ideas.

    • #52
  23. HVTs Inactive
    HVTs
    @HVTs

    James Of England: I feel like the American loss in Vietnam was a very big deal in 1985. Heck, it was a key reason for Bin Laden to believe that he’d prevail in 2001, and for later fighters to believe that they would in Iraq.

    By 1985 Vietnamese, Chinese, and Cambodian communists had killed unknown tens of thousands of the other’s communists starting almost immediately upon our withdrawal.  Vietnam was more than half-way through a ten year occupation of Cambodia, which it would eventually abandon since it was accomplishing exactly nothing for Vietnam.  Reagan was all warmed up and getting ready to effect his coup de grâce on the brand new (and last) Soviet General Secretary … a man named Gorbachev.  China was already well on its way to becoming an economically market oriented fascist state, as opposed to a fascist planned economy.

    No one gave a rat’s backside about SE Asia in 1985 save the inhabitants and their neighbors, who—as I said—were on-and-off killing one another.

    Bin Laden had plenty of reasons to doubt our resolve based upon more recent actions than Vietnam . . . actions done in his patch not in far off SE Asia.

    If we get out of the way, the Shia and Sunni can get on with their first love: killing the other.

    • #53
  24. James Of England Inactive
    James Of England
    @JamesOfEngland

    HVTs:

    James Of England: I feel like the American loss in Vietnam was a very big deal in 1985. Heck, it was a key reason for Bin Laden to believe that he’d prevail in 2001, and for later fighters to believe that they would in Iraq.

    By 1985 Vietnamese, Chinese, and Cambodian communists had killed unknown tens of thousands of the other’s communists starting almost immediately upon our withdrawal. Vietnam was more than half-way through a ten year occupation of Cambodia, which it would eventually abandon since it was accomplishing exactly nothing for Vietnam. Reagan was all warmed up and getting ready to effect his coup de grâce on the brand new (and last) Soviet General Secretary … a man named Gorbachev. China was already well on its way to becoming an economically market oriented fascist state, as opposed to a fascist planned economy.

    No one gave a rat’s backside about SE Asia in 1985 save the inhabitants and their neighbors, who—as I said—were on-and-off killing one another.

    Sure; my point wasn’t so much that people cared about the Vietnamese people as that they cared about America being a toothless tiger. The ease with which Saddam was kicked out of Kuwait caused a lot of amnesia about claims that things would go less well, but those claims were not uncommon.

    Bin Laden had plenty of reasons to doubt our resolve based upon more recent actions than Vietnam . . . actions done in his patch not in far off SE Asia.

    That’s true, but Vietnam was still the gold standard in demonstrations that with patience one could defeat America in a war.

    If we get out of the way, the Shia and Sunni can get on with their first love: killing the other.

    Sunnis and Shia have been at peace with each other for the overwhelming bulk of their history. The continual war myth is more than absurd; there’s a 7th century war and a mid-late 20th century one, but for most of the time in between Sunni were able to rule Shia and Shia Sunni without particular issues. The population of Iraq mostly converted in the 18th-19th centuries to a faith their rulers disagreed with, which isn’t the sort of thing that happens without drama when the rulers have killing as their first love.

    • #54
  25. HVTs Inactive
    HVTs
    @HVTs

    James Of England: Sure; my point wasn’t so much that people cared about the Vietnamese people as that they cared about America being a toothless tiger.

    In 1985 did Gorbachev consider Reagan a “toothless tiger”?  How about Deng Xioping?  Your interpretation of mid-80’s reality is, in my view, very narrow and therefore inaccurate.  Leadership matters.  It turned-around a mid-70s disaster in about a decade.

    The ease with which Saddam was kicked out of Kuwait caused a lot of amnesia about claims that things would go less well, but those claims were not uncommon.

    So, the ease with which Saddam was kicked out of Kuwait demonstrated we were not a toothless tiger . . . Saddam and others miscalculated.  Your point is . . . alternative claims were made before that happened?  Why is that significant?  Those claims were wrong.

    Okay fine — have it your way: we’ll return to the sunny uplands of Muslim sectarian harmony.  You like thin reeds—hang on to that one. I don’t much care . . . let them do whatever they are going to do, just keep them doing it in sandbox we don’t care about and prevent them from letting it spillover into places we do care about.  Obama’s Iran deal—once reversed by Trump—will help allow that to happen.  Clinton gets elected and we’re in deep doo-doo.

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