The Battle for Bakhmut

 

The battle for Bakhmut has lasted for about nine months. It is the bloodiest and most intense fight in Europe since WWII. Advances and retreats are measured in two to six kilometers increments.

Thousands of Russian and Ukrainian forces have been killed in this battle as Russian forces try to encircle the city, and Ukrainian forces try to prevent the taking of the city.

Once again, the following video shows the grunts in the field. I’m not interested in the policy wonk views in the West, nor the Kremlin’s perpetual aggrievement of losing the old Soviet Empire. This fight has become like WWI trench warfare with newer and more deadly weapons.

My opinion is that this war is not going to end anytime soon. Regardless of the past history between Russia and Ukraine, it should be obvious that Ukrainians are fighting for hearth and home.

.

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  1. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    HeavyWater (View Comment):
    https://twitter.com/noclador/status/1657108999005786123

    Love the tweet!!! From which:

    Image

    • #31
  2. GPentelie Coolidge
    GPentelie
    @GPentelie

    lowtech redneck (View Comment):
    … Russia didn’t invade to aggrandize themselves so much as they did to prevent Ukraine (and Eastern Europe) from breaking free from Russian leverage through the exploitation of Black Sea oil and gas.

    Conversely, …

    The US/NATO haven’t been continually inserting themselves into Ukrainian politics for going on 20 (30?) years now in order to aggrandize themselves so much as they did it to try to prevent Russia from benefiting from Black Sea oil and gas, and stuff.

    No?

    • #32
  3. Raxxalan Member
    Raxxalan
    @Raxxalan

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Raxxalan (View Comment):
    https://www.helsinkitimes.fi/world-int/23512-detaining-gonzalo-lira-another-blow-to-the-freedom-of-press-in-ukraine.html

    voila:

    The Ukrainian Security Service (SBU) arrested Gonzalo Lira, a US-Chilean national residing in Kharkiv, on suspicions of harbouring pro-Russian sentiments. This marks the second time Lira has been apprehended by the SBU….He was subsequently instructed not to leave the city and prohibited from discussing his arrest….

    On May 5, the SBU website [alleged] that Lira was among the first to support Russian invaders and glorify their war crimes. It also accuses him of discrediting Ukraine’s military-political leadership and Defense Forces. The SBU claims that Lira filmed provocative videos featuring Ukrainian defenders and insulted them.

    Lira disseminated his “streams” on his YouTube and Telegram channels, amassing nearly 300,000 subscribers…

    …Ukraine’s parliament enacted [2 laws] that…prohibit mass media from justifying or legitimising the denial of Russia’s armed aggression in Ukraine and the occupation of its territories. They also forbid the glorification of individuals involved in the aggression or administration of occupied areas.

    The Ukrainian Criminal Code now…establishes liability for threatening or insulting military personnel and their families [or] the justification or denial of Russian military aggression, the occupation of Ukrainian territories, and the glorification of those involved in the aggression or occupation. Penalties…range from arrest for up to 6 months to imprisonment for up to 8 years….

    The SBU filmed Lira’s arrest, during which heavily armed agents were involved. All participants’ faces, except Lira’s, were blurred out. A close-up of a smartphone displaying an image of Lira’s children as a screensaver was also left un-blurred…The metal soundtrack from Override Spedup fades down enough to hear the words of a special forces member telling Lira while tapping his arm: “Welcome to Ukraine.”

    …Ukraine’s recent implementation of laws criminalising dissent, banning opposition political parties, nationalising the media, and even persecuting the Ukrainian Orthodox Church for maintaining canonical communion with Moscow …have been criticised for undermining democratic values and creating a chilling effect on freedom of expression.

    The detainment of Gonzalo Lira…raises questions about the Zelensky administration’s dedication to democratic principles and the obligation of its Western supporters to address these concerns….

    Since the beginning of the conflict in Ukraine, Western media and governments have systematically overlooked or even suppressed news and information about any undemocratic, criminal, or corrupt activities or even war crimes committed by the Ukrainian side of the conflict, while emphasising the same from the Russian side.

    Gonzalo[‘s] last tweet on April 22 mentioned the names of several Ukrainian dissidents who have been killed or arrested by the Kyiv regime. The list includes Volodymyr Struk, a Ukrainian politician who was abducted and killed in March 2022 during the Russian invasion of Ukraine, and Denis Kireev, a Ukrainian official executed in the street shortly after attending the first round of peace talks between Russia and Ukraine in Belarus.

    Thanks.  This is completely unsurprising.  The first casualty of war is the truth. It doesn’t really have a material impact on my analysis or my assessments.  It is of course a word of caution to the pro Ukraine side.  Neither side in this conflict, or any conflict, has it hands totally clean. 

    • #33
  4. HeavyWater Inactive
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

     

    • #34
  5. HeavyWater Inactive
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

     

    • #35
  6. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    GPentelie (View Comment):

    lowtech redneck (View Comment):
    … Russia didn’t invade to aggrandize themselves so much as they did to prevent Ukraine (and Eastern Europe) from breaking free from Russian leverage through the exploitation of Black Sea oil and gas.

    Conversely, …

    The US/NATO haven’t been continually inserting themselves into Ukrainian politics for going on 20 (30?) years now in order to aggrandize themselves so much as they did it to try to prevent Russia from benefiting from Black Sea oil and gas, and stuff.

    No?

    My gut feeling is that it’s more about Russia being a resource rich country that isn’t behaving like a resource rich country but like a country country – ie post the Yeltsin disaster it isn’t for sale.  That’s also behind the whole ‘decolonise Russia’ thing where randos from places like Buryatia Yakutia are being supported in their bid for independence from the Russian Beast.

    Where dat?

    Where is Yakutia?

    • #36
  7. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

     

    And then of course sometimes I fear we’re trending into the equivalent of you know who and the last US election territory.

    • #37
  8. Raxxalan Member
    Raxxalan
    @Raxxalan

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

     

    Yeah that worries me.   Russia may decide it has to reestabish deterrence for its own safety.   I support Ukraine, but we must be careful to allow Russia an off ramp where they feel they still have their national sovereignty and territorial integrity.  They still have a substantial nuclear force.  I support what we are doing in Ukraine, but I am not willing to end the world over it.   That having been said I am not willing to let Russia blackmail the west either.  Now is the tim3 for a firm and clear eyed foreign policy, alas it is not available to us at the moment.

    • #38
  9. Steve C. Member
    Steve C.
    @user_531302

    Doug Watt (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Doug Watt (View Comment):

    I’m not sure what your point is in an essay about the front lines in Bakhmut.

    Where do you get your news about the front lines in Bakhmut and relative Russian and Ukrainian capabilities?

    If dissenting voices are shut down, in fact criminalised, this ‘news’ is somewhat one sided (even propaganda), no?

    He has dual US and Chilean citizenship. The Ukrainians should deport him to either the US or Chile.

    But they won’t. They televised what was essentially a SWAT team to arrest some nebbish podcaster who disagreed with Ukraine. I’m pretty sure they knew he wasn’t armed and dangerous, so what’s the footage for?

    Do your own research just like I did.

    Did your research involve investigating sources from more than one point of view? Or was it basically ISW stuff?

    GPentelie (View Comment):

    I can’t think of ANY country that, while at war (even if, as was the case of the US in WWI and WWII, no enemy military’s “boots” were traipsing upon any of its territory), did NOT engage in efforts to prevent its citizens from consuming news/information that was detrimental to its war effort.

    True, but I can’t think of a single reason a free person in a free country should then take that country’s curated version of events as the truth. Without questioning it.

    I don’t rely on Ukranian military sources. There is a big difference between the Voice of America and Radio Free Europe. I don’t rely on Russian sources and their empathetic bloggers. Radio Free Europe has reporters embedded with Ukrainian forces. There are no military bloggers embedded with Russian forces. All their news comes from the Kremlin. ISW reports on both Russian and Ukrainian military claims. ISW does not rely on secret sources like the Red Pill of some secret knowledge that some people claim they have.

    I trust nothing. Sure I read and I watch video and I listen. But as far as I’m concerned everyone is “talking their book”.

    I don’t believe much of what the Ukrainians say because of OPSEC (Operational Security). They will tell you the truthful minimum. The rest they want to keep secret from the Russians. Case in point, the much anticipated counter offensive. We may eventually learn “Operation Guffman” contributed more to Ukraine’s success than we can imagine. By the way that doesn’t mean I don’t expect an offensive.

    I don’t trust the Russians for obvious reasons. Not to be outdone, I don’t trust the press either. And I’m dubious about the reliability of our own government. Case in point, we have several thousand versions of the M1 tank in storage in the desert. And while the Europeans are sending Ukraine Leopard 1s, circa 1975, we can’t send 105mm gun M1s?!? 

     

    • #39
  10. HeavyWater Inactive
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

     

    • #40
  11. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Steve C. (View Comment):
    Case in point, we have several thousand versions of the M1 tank in storage in the desert. And while the Europeans are sending Ukraine Leopard 1s, circa 1975, we can’t send 105mm gun M1s?!? 

    Well what objective would this be consistent with?  Sometimes read between the lines?

    Or engage in utter speculation: they don’t want Russia to win but they don’t really want Russia to lose either.

    • #41
  12. HeavyWater Inactive
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

     

    • #42
  13. GPentelie Coolidge
    GPentelie
    @GPentelie

    Raxxalan (View Comment):

    … Neither side in this conflict, or any conflict, has it hands totally clean.

    Yup.

     

    • #43
  14. HeavyWater Inactive
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

     

    • #44
  15. Jim McConnell Member
    Jim McConnell
    @JimMcConnell

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    Doug Watt: Regardless of the past history between Russia and Ukraine it should be obvious that Ukrainians are fighting for hearth and home.

    I do agree that some of the Ukrainians are doing this. Probably not the majority in Donetsk, Luhansk, or Crimea, though.

    The Russians are also fighting for hearth and home.

    What do you mean?

    • #45
  16. DonG (CAGW is a Scam) Coolidge
    DonG (CAGW is a Scam)
    @DonG

    Raxxalan (View Comment):

    What is the outcome of a stalemate?

    It depends.  If the Russians can solve their logistics situation and/or change their tactics, I feel it would favor them.  It would give them time to train and bring their numerical advantages to bear and also would give time for Ukraine’s western allies to tire and press for a solution that is worse for Ukraine.  If the Russians can’t solve their logistics challenges or change their tactics, it perhaps favors Ukraine.  At that point it becomes a siege in slow motion that the Russians can’t win.  I qualify this and say perhaps because a long war has more chance that Ukraine loses its western backers, which changes the dynamic profoundly.

    I think Ukraine is more dependent on the charity of other nations, so a stalemate probably helps Russia.  I assume that Russia is willing to drag this on for 10 years.   I don’t see the USA dumping $1 Trillion into Ukraine to sustain them.  But, the corporate lobby basically runs D.C.

    • #46
  17. Raxxalan Member
    Raxxalan
    @Raxxalan

    DonG (CAGW is a Scam) (View Comment):

    Raxxalan (View Comment):

    What is the outcome of a stalemate?

    It depends. If the Russians can solve their logistics situation and/or change their tactics, I feel it would favor them. It would give them time to train and bring their numerical advantages to bear and also would give time for Ukraine’s western allies to tire and press for a solution that is worse for Ukraine. If the Russians can’t solve their logistics challenges or change their tactics, it perhaps favors Ukraine. At that point it becomes a siege in slow motion that the Russians can’t win. I qualify this and say perhaps because a long war has more chance that Ukraine loses its western backers, which changes the dynamic profoundly.

    I think Ukraine is more dependent on the charity of other nations, so a stalemate probably helps Russia. I assume that Russia is willing to drag this on for 10 years. I don’t see the USA dumping $1 Trillion into Ukraine to sustain them. But, the corporate lobby basically runs D.C.

    I definitely see and agree with your point; however, to @postmodernhoplite assessment the Afghans were able to drive the Russians and the US out using small arms and light michine guns the Ukrainians may be able to do the same. 

    • #47
  18. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    DonG (CAGW is a Scam) (View Comment):

    Raxxalan (View Comment):

    What is the outcome of a stalemate?

    It depends. If the Russians can solve their logistics situation and/or change their tactics, I feel it would favor them. It would give them time to train and bring their numerical advantages to bear and also would give time for Ukraine’s western allies to tire and press for a solution that is worse for Ukraine. If the Russians can’t solve their logistics challenges or change their tactics, it perhaps favors Ukraine. At that point it becomes a siege in slow motion that the Russians can’t win. I qualify this and say perhaps because a long war has more chance that Ukraine loses its western backers, which changes the dynamic profoundly.

    I think Ukraine is more dependent on the charity of other nations, so a stalemate probably helps Russia. I assume that Russia is willing to drag this on for 10 years. I don’t see the USA dumping $1 Trillion into Ukraine to sustain them. But, the corporate lobby basically runs D.C.

    From Aljazeera (August 2021):

    Since 2001, the United States has spent $2.26 trillion in Afghanistan, the Costs of War Project at Brown University calculates – an investment that has yielded a chaotic, humiliating end to America’s longest war.

    • #48
  19. Raxxalan Member
    Raxxalan
    @Raxxalan

    Zafar (View Comment):

    DonG (CAGW is a Scam) (View Comment):

    Raxxalan (View Comment):

    What is the outcome of a stalemate?

    It depends. If the Russians can solve their logistics situation and/or change their tactics, I feel it would favor them. It would give them time to train and bring their numerical advantages to bear and also would give time for Ukraine’s western allies to tire and press for a solution that is worse for Ukraine. If the Russians can’t solve their logistics challenges or change their tactics, it perhaps favors Ukraine. At that point it becomes a siege in slow motion that the Russians can’t win. I qualify this and say perhaps because a long war has more chance that Ukraine loses its western backers, which changes the dynamic profoundly.

    I think Ukraine is more dependent on the charity of other nations, so a stalemate probably helps Russia. I assume that Russia is willing to drag this on for 10 years. I don’t see the USA dumping $1 Trillion into Ukraine to sustain them. But, the corporate lobby basically runs D.C.

    From Aljazeera (August 2021):

    Since 2001, the United States has spent $2.26 trillion in Afghanistan, the Costs of War Project at Brown University calculates – an investment that has yielded a chaotic, humiliating end to America’s longest war.

    Exactly subduing a population is a difficult thing.  That having been said.  If it had wished and/ or had the will the taliban could not have won against the US. In the end we did choose to leave.  Unlike Germany, Japan, and Korea the difference is Russia may not have a choice.

    • #49
  20. Locke On Member
    Locke On
    @LockeOn

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

     

    Not so significant in itself, but very interesting as a harbinger, re:

    What it might say about relative quality and effectiveness of AFU and AFR troops in the area

    More interestingly, as a possible fixing attack (to keep RU troops pinned in place). It’s happening at the same time as limited AFU attacks in Zaporizhiyia and near Kupiansk, and rumors of Ukrainians preparing amphibious assaults across the Dnipro, and armored formations ready to move on the Russian city of Belgorod. The latter two smell like info ops, but the whole looks like battlefield shaping before the much anticipated counter-attack, specifically to keep the Russians guessing where it’s coming, while meanwhile continuing to blow up as much of their logistics as can be reached.

     

    • #50
  21. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Raxxalan (View Comment):

    Exactly subduing a population is a difficult thing.  That having been said.  If it had wished and/ or had the will the taliban could not have won against the US. In the end we did choose to leave.

    It’s how you chose to fight that war, the price you were willing to pay in blood compared to what you were willing to pay in treasure.  According to wiki there were 2402 US deaths in Afghanistan in the two decades from 2001 to 2021.   I’m certainly not diminishing the tragedy of the lives lost, but that’s less than 150 deaths a year to maintain control of an entire, mountainous, armed to the teeth country – inhabited by people with an undeniable martial tradition.

    There are always these horrifying images of bodies hanging from lamp posts in the weeks after the Taliban take control of a place.  The implication is that these were the democrats, the feminists, the secular people that the Taliban wanted to make an example of.

    And some of them might be.  But a lot of them were also local thugs and bandits that the US backed government either didn’t deal with or actually subsumed as corrupt officials.  That’s the awful reason the Taliban retained the critical mass of support from locals in the country.  Not because the Taliban are so great, but because the Western backed alternatives could be so awful when the West wasn’t looking. (Or rather, when the Western media wasn’t focused.)

    Unlike Germany, Japan, and Korea the difference is Russia may not have a choice.

    In Afghanistan that was Pakistan, and that’s why you failed.  Your interests were at odds, and you could  choose to leave.  Pakistan could not.

    I doubt Russia wants to control all of Ukraine. (Just like Pakistan doesn’t really want Western Afghanistan.) They want the East and they want the coast – imnsho.

    Interesting, if anecdotal (emphasis added) story:

    Volodymyr Struk…was a lawmaker with the Party of Regions, Ukraine’s largest pro-Russian force…

    After separatists turned part of the area into a Moscow-backed “People’s Republic”, Struk moved there from Kreminna, a Ukraine-controlled town of 18,000 ….

    Ukrainian prosecutors charged Struk with separatism, but he returned to Kreminna – and was elected its mayor last November with nearly 52 percent of the vote.

    …Days before his death, Struk had said the Russian invaders were welcome in Kreminna. Then unknown men in camouflage abducted him from his house and, on March 1, his body was found.

    “The entire state apparatus of Ukraine – the SBU [intelligence service], the Interior Ministry, prosecutors, courts – could not do anything with the openly separatist Struk for eight years because he had a lot of money…” Anton Herashchenko, an aide to the interior minister, wrote …he was “executed by unknown patriots as a traitor”, Herashchenko said of the killing – and attached a photo of Struk’s remains to his post.

    • #51
  22. Steve Fast Member
    Steve Fast
    @SteveFast

    Why do the same people have the same debates on the same topics over and over and over?

    • #52
  23. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Steve Fast (View Comment):

    Why do the same people have the same debates on the same topics over and over and over?

    Without ever changing our, or each other’s, minds?  What is this about, really?

    • #53
  24. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Zafar (View Comment):
    According to wiki there were 2402 US deaths in Afghanistan in the two decades from 2001 to 2021.

    And just a few in the last 3 or 4 years.  Zero or close to it, for the last year or two, as I recall.

    • #54
  25. Taras Coolidge
    Taras
    @Taras

    Raxxalan (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    DonG (CAGW is a Scam) (View Comment):

    Raxxalan (View Comment):

    What is the outcome of a stalemate?

    It depends. If the Russians can solve their logistics situation and/or change their tactics, I feel it would favor them. It would give them time to train and bring their numerical advantages to bear and also would give time for Ukraine’s western allies to tire and press for a solution that is worse for Ukraine. If the Russians can’t solve their logistics challenges or change their tactics, it perhaps favors Ukraine. At that point it becomes a siege in slow motion that the Russians can’t win. I qualify this and say perhaps because a long war has more chance that Ukraine loses its western backers, which changes the dynamic profoundly.

    I think Ukraine is more dependent on the charity of other nations, so a stalemate probably helps Russia. I assume that Russia is willing to drag this on for 10 years. I don’t see the USA dumping $1 Trillion into Ukraine to sustain them. But, the corporate lobby basically runs D.C.

    From Aljazeera (August 2021):

    Since 2001, the United States has spent $2.26 trillion in Afghanistan, the Costs of War Project at Brown University calculates – an investment that has yielded a chaotic, humiliating end to America’s longest war.

    Exactly subduing a population is a difficult thing. That having been said. If it had wished and/ or had the will the taliban could not have won against the US. In the end we did choose to leave. Unlike Germany, Japan, and Korea the difference is Russia may not have a choice.

    Surrender was always an option in Afghanistan.   However, it seems Biden thought he would be able to pass off surrender as victory.   (Or just blame everything on Trump.)   I’m sure Biden’s “feminist” supporters will say little about the degradation of 16 million women and girls.

    • #55
  26. lowtech redneck Coolidge
    lowtech redneck
    @lowtech redneck

    GPentelie (View Comment):

    lowtech redneck (View Comment):
    … Russia didn’t invade to aggrandize themselves so much as they did to prevent Ukraine (and Eastern Europe) from breaking free from Russian leverage through the exploitation of Black Sea oil and gas.

    Conversely, …

    The US/NATO haven’t been continually inserting themselves into Ukrainian politics for going on 20 (30?) years now in order to aggrandize themselves so much as they did it to try to prevent Russia from benefiting from Black Sea oil and gas, and stuff.

    No?

    If by ‘inserting’ you mean favoring and supporting Western-oriented factions and not conceding Ukraine as Russia’s compliant, autocratic puppet state as with Belarus, and by ‘benefit’ you mean dominating Eastern Europe and possibly rebuilding a substantial portion of the powerbase they had as the Soviet Union (which was almost as much of a Russian nationalist project as it was an ideological empire), then yes.

    Edit: The real question is why doing so is either unreasonable, illegitimate or contrary to our national interests?

    • #56
  27. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    lowtech redneck (View Comment):

    If by ‘inserting’ you mean favoring and supporting Western-oriented factions and not conceding Ukraine as Russia’s compliant, autocratic puppet state as with Belarus, and by ‘benefit’ you mean dominating Eastern Europe and possibly rebuilding a substantial portion of the powerbase they had as the Soviet Union (which was almost as much of a Russian nationalist project as it was an ideological empire), then yes.

    Edit: The real question is why doing so is either unreasonable, illegitimate or contrary to our national interests?

    Is it in the US’ interests to have a buffer state between it and Russia or not?

     

    • #57
  28. HeavyWater Inactive
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

    Zafar (View Comment):

    lowtech redneck (View Comment):

    If by ‘inserting’ you mean favoring and supporting Western-oriented factions and not conceding Ukraine as Russia’s compliant, autocratic puppet state as with Belarus, and by ‘benefit’ you mean dominating Eastern Europe and possibly rebuilding a substantial portion of the powerbase they had as the Soviet Union (which was almost as much of a Russian nationalist project as it was an ideological empire), then yes.

    Edit: The real question is why doing so is either unreasonable, illegitimate or contrary to our national interests?

    Is it in the US’ interests to have a buffer state between it and Russia or not?

     

    How do you distinguish a “buffer state” from some other kind of state?  

    • #58
  29. GPentelie Coolidge
    GPentelie
    @GPentelie

    HeavyWater (View Comment):
    How do you distinguish a “buffer state” from some other kind of state?  

    Here you go:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffer_state

    • #59
  30. GPentelie Coolidge
    GPentelie
    @GPentelie

    lowtech redneck (View Comment):
    The real question is why doing so is either unreasonable, illegitimate or contrary to our national interests?

    From a geopolitical, great powers continually jostling for advantage standpoint, it is certainly not contrary to US national interests to have a Ukraine that is within its “sphere of influence”. Conversely, of course, it is certainly not contrary to Russia’s national interests to have a Ukraine that is within its “sphere of influence”, especially since they (unlike us) share a 1,400 mile border with it.

    So now we have a hot (and getting hotter) proxy war going. “Yippee!”

    • #60
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