The Battle for Bakhmut

 

The battle for Bakhmut has lasted for about nine months. It is the bloodiest and most intense fight in Europe since WWII. Advances and retreats are measured in two to six kilometers increments.

Thousands of Russian and Ukrainian forces have been killed in this battle as Russian forces try to encircle the city, and Ukrainian forces try to prevent the taking of the city.

Once again, the following video shows the grunts in the field. I’m not interested in the policy wonk views in the West, nor the Kremlin’s perpetual aggrievement of losing the old Soviet Empire. This fight has become like WWI trench warfare with newer and more deadly weapons.

My opinion is that this war is not going to end anytime soon. Regardless of the past history between Russia and Ukraine, it should be obvious that Ukrainians are fighting for hearth and home.

.

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  1. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    There’s much to-do about corruption and funding. But then I remember that the Ukrainians, the everyday folks, are fighting for their homes and their lives. It’s tragic.

    • #1
  2. Randy Weivoda Moderator
    Randy Weivoda
    @RandyWeivoda

    Doug Watt: This fight has become like WWI trench warfare with newer and more deadly weapons.

    Thankfully no poison gas, though.

    • #2
  3. Raxxalan Member
    Raxxalan
    @Raxxalan

    Doug Watt: My opinion is that this war is not going to end anytime soon. Regardless of the past history between Russia and Ukraine it should be obvious that Ukrainians are fighting for hearth and home.

    I agree it isn’t going to end anytime soon.  Neither side can really win at this point and neither side is about to give up or collapse.  Also although allowing that any video coming out of Ukraine is going to have some propaganda,  it is the nature of war.   It certain appears that the Ukrainians are much more decentralized and much more flexible than the Russians.   There is a logic to that.  As you point out the Ukrainians are defending their homes.  The Russians are attempting to take territory.   The Ukrainians can afford to allow much more individual initiative and have a decentralized structure.  The Russian army is depending on mass conscription, as such their morale and motivation isn’t going to allow or encourage individual initiative.  It is going to rely much more on a top down command and control structure.  This is aside from doctrine It has to do with the capabilities of the two combatants.  Wagner might be different; however, I doubt it if they are recruiting from prisons.   It is going to be very hard for the Russians to break a decentralized army.

    • #3
  4. Raxxalan Member
    Raxxalan
    @Raxxalan

    Randy Weivoda (View Comment):

    Doug Watt: This fight has become like WWI trench warfare with newer and more deadly weapons.

    Thankfully no poison gas, though.

    Can we be sure of that?  The Syrians used chemical weapons in their civil war and Russia certainly has the capability.   I hope and pray you are right, but one bad signal from Biden and Putin might believe he could get away with chemical weapons.

    • #4
  5. Postmodern Hoplite Coolidge
    Postmodern Hoplite
    @PostmodernHoplite

    Randy Weivoda (View Comment):

    Doug Watt: This fight has become like WWI trench warfare with newer and more deadly weapons.

    Thankfully no poison gas, though.

    Amen!

    • #5
  6. Misthiocracy has never Member
    Misthiocracy has never
    @Misthiocracy

    Randy Weivoda (View Comment):

    Doug Watt: This fight has become like WWI trench warfare with newer and more deadly weapons.

    Thankfully no poison gas, though.

    The shelling of nuclear plants was bad enough.

    • #6
  7. Postmodern Hoplite Coolidge
    Postmodern Hoplite
    @PostmodernHoplite

    I agree with your assessment @raxxalan – I think this is going to take years to finally resolve and achieve a lasting and durable peace. Can an armistice be imposed on Ukraine that leaves captured territory under Russian occupation? Of course; but I don’t think the Ukrainians will accept such a situation. It’s more likely that Ukraine will conduct a low intensity insurgency in the occupied territories (Crimea and the Donbas) until the Russians are driven out. In Afghanistan, that took eight years. But the Afghans did it with small arms, light machine guns, and Stinger missiles.

    • #7
  8. Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patriot) Member
    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patriot)
    @ArizonaPatriot

    Doug Watt: Regardless of the past history between Russia and Ukraine it should be obvious that Ukrainians are fighting for hearth and home. 

    I do agree that some of the Ukrainians are doing this.  Probably not the majority in Donetsk, Luhansk, or Crimea, though.

    The Russians are also fighting for hearth and home.

    • #8
  9. Raxxalan Member
    Raxxalan
    @Raxxalan

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    Doug Watt: Regardless of the past history between Russia and Ukraine it should be obvious that Ukrainians are fighting for hearth and home.

    I do agree that some of the Ukrainians are doing this. Probably not the majority in Donetsk, Luhansk, or Crimea, though.

    The Russians are also fighting for hearth and home.

    It is difficult to say and different for those three locations.  Donetsk and Luhansk were certainly easier to convince in 2014 that they might be in a better shape with Russia than with Ukraine.   Russia is a master at destabilization and propaganda campaigns, so it is difficult to assess what is what in those two.  There was a fair amount of discontent in both of those regions as the low level warfare continued form 2014 until 2022 both regions had been pretty lawless and had soured on the Russians to some extent, again propaganda is in play here but it seems credible this is the case.  Crimea is a totally different story.   Crimea has deep cultural and historic ties to Russia, so there I think you analysis is pretty much spot on. 

    • #9
  10. Randy Weivoda Moderator
    Randy Weivoda
    @RandyWeivoda

    Postmodern Hoplite (View Comment):

    Can an armistice be imposed on Ukraine that leaves captured territory under Russian occupation? Of course; but I don’t think the Ukrainians will accept such a situation. It’s more likely that Ukraine will conduct a low intensity insurgency in the occupied territories (Crimea and the Donbas) until the Russians are driven out.

    I don’t claim to have any more knowledge of Ukraine than the average American, so forgive me if I misunderstand the situation.  Given that the Donbas region has been in a state of rebellion for several years, might not Ukraine be better off to just cut them loose, make a peace deal, and end the war?  I strongly suspect that if Ukraine had surrendered immediately it would have encouraged Russia to continue biting off chunks of Ukraine and other neighbors in the future.  At this point, if a peace deal is reached Putin can brag about being a conquering hero to the public.  Privately, I suspect the rest of the Russian leadership would have had a bellyful of death and expense and would curb Putin from any more special military operations.

    The money Ukraine doesn’t have to spend continuing this war could be spent fortifying their military to further dissuade Russia from trying this again.  Seeing Poland arm up and Finland and Sweden joining NATO ought to provide further dissuasion. 

    • #10
  11. Steve Fast Member
    Steve Fast
    @SteveFast

    Randy Weivoda (View Comment):

    Postmodern Hoplite (View Comment):

    Can an armistice be imposed on Ukraine that leaves captured territory under Russian occupation? Of course; but I don’t think the Ukrainians will accept such a situation. It’s more likely that Ukraine will conduct a low intensity insurgency in the occupied territories (Crimea and the Donbas) until the Russians are driven out.

    I don’t claim to have any more knowledge of Ukraine than the average American, so forgive me if I misunderstand the situation. Given that the Donbas region has been in a state of rebellion for several years, might not Ukraine be better off to just cut them loose, make a peace deal, and end the war? I strongly suspect that if Ukraine had surrendered immediately it would have encouraged Russia to continue biting off chunks of Ukraine and other neighbors in the future. At this point, if a peace deal is reached Putin can brag about being a conquering hero to the public. Privately, I suspect the rest of the Russian leadership would have had a bellyful of death and expense and would curb Putin from any more special military operations.

    The money Ukraine doesn’t have to spend continuing this war could be spent fortifying their military to further dissuade Russia from trying this again. Seeing Poland arm up and Finland and Sweden joining NATO ought to provide further dissuasion.

    Donbas was not in rebellion. It was occupied by Russia in 2014.

    • #11
  12. DonG (CAGW is a Scam) Coolidge
    DonG (CAGW is a Scam)
    @DonG

    Doug Watt: This fight has become like WWI trench warfare with newer and more deadly weapons.

    It seems that every person is flying a drone meant for one other person.   It is on camera and rather personal.   It is slow and methodical urban warfare.   I assume this is intentional.   The way to avoid urban warfare is to destroy supply lines and trap troops almost like a siege.   Instead we have two sides dividing a city with intact and endless supply lines.  What is the outcome of a stalemate? 

    • #12
  13. Raxxalan Member
    Raxxalan
    @Raxxalan

    DonG (CAGW is a Scam) (View Comment):

    Doug Watt: This fight has become like WWI trench warfare with newer and more deadly weapons.

    It seems that every person is flying a drone meant for one other person. It is on camera and rather personal. It is slow and methodical urban warfare. I assume this is intentional. The way to avoid urban warfare is to destroy supply lines and trap troops almost like a siege. Instead we have two sides dividing a city with intact and endless supply lines.

    Actually the Russians have shown themselves to have profound logistics problems and the Ukrainians have been pretty effective at disrupting Russian supply lines.  Not enough to force a retreat but enough to slow the Russians down significantly and keep them from bringing any real numerical advantages to bear.   These to things being said I have a slight quibble with “intact and endless supply lines”.

    What is the outcome of a stalemate?

    It depends.  If the Russians can solve their logistics situation and/or change their tactics, I feel it would favor them.  It would give them time to train and bring their numerical advantages to bear and also would give time for Ukraine’s western allies to tire and press for a solution that is worse for Ukraine.  If the Russians can’t solve their logistics challenges or change their tactics, it perhaps favors Ukraine.  At that point it becomes a siege in slow motion that the Russians can’t win.  I qualify this and say perhaps because a long war has more chance that Ukraine loses its western backers, which changes the dynamic profoundly.

    • #13
  14. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    https://www.helsinkitimes.fi/world-int/23512-detaining-gonzalo-lira-another-blow-to-the-freedom-of-press-in-ukraine.html

    • #14
  15. Doug Watt Member
    Doug Watt
    @DougWatt

    Zafar (View Comment):

    https://www.helsinkitimes.fi/world-int/23512-detaining-gonzalo-lira-another-blow-to-the-freedom-of-press-in-ukraine.html

    I’m not sure what your point is in an essay about the front lines in Bakhmut. The Helsinki Times is an apologist for China and Gonzalo Lira also called Coach Red Pill by some is an unabashed supporter of Putin and Russia. He has a large following of Incel malcontents, although he claims not to be Incel himself.

    He has dual US and Chilean citizenship. The Ukrainians should deport him to either the US or Chile. Do your own research just like I did.

    • #15
  16. GPentelie Coolidge
    GPentelie
    @GPentelie

    Zafar (View Comment):

    https://www.helsinkitimes.fi/world-int/23512-detaining-gonzalo-lira-another-blow-to-the-freedom-of-press-in-ukraine.html

    I can’t think of ANY country that, while at war (even if, as was the case of the US in WWI and WWII, no enemy military’s “boots” were traipsing upon any of its territory), did NOT engage in efforts to prevent its citizens from consuming news/information that was detrimental to its war effort.

    Can you?  

    • #16
  17. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Doug Watt (View Comment):

    I’m not sure what your point is in an essay about the front lines in Bakhmut.

    Where do you get your news about the front lines in Bakhmut and relative Russian and Ukrainian capabilities?

    If dissenting voices are shut down, in fact criminalised, this ‘news’ is somewhat one sided (even propaganda), no?

    He has dual US and Chilean citizenship. The Ukrainians should deport him to either the US or Chile.

    But they won’t.  They televised what was essentially a SWAT team to arrest some nebbish podcaster who disagreed with Ukraine.  I’m pretty sure they knew he wasn’t armed and dangerous, so what’s the footage for?

    Do your own research just like I did.

    Did your research involve investigating sources from more than one point of view?  Or was it basically ISW stuff?

    GPentelie (View Comment):

    I can’t think of ANY country that, while at war (even if, as was the case of the US in WWI and WWII, no enemy military’s “boots” were traipsing upon any of its territory), did NOT engage in efforts to prevent its citizens from consuming news/information that was detrimental to its war effort.

    True, but I can’t think of a single reason a free person in a free country should then take that country’s curated version of events as the truth.  Without questioning it.

    • #17
  18. Doug Watt Member
    Doug Watt
    @DougWatt

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Doug Watt (View Comment):

    I’m not sure what your point is in an essay about the front lines in Bakhmut.

    Where do you get your news about the front lines in Bakhmut and relative Russian and Ukrainian capabilities?

    If dissenting voices are shut down, in fact criminalised, this ‘news’ is somewhat one sided (even propaganda), no?

    He has dual US and Chilean citizenship. The Ukrainians should deport him to either the US or Chile.

    But they won’t. They televised what was essentially a SWAT team to arrest some nebbish podcaster who disagreed with Ukraine. I’m pretty sure they knew he wasn’t armed and dangerous, so what’s the footage for?

    Do your own research just like I did.

    Did your research involve investigating sources from more than one point of view? Or was it basically ISW stuff?

    GPentelie (View Comment):

    I can’t think of ANY country that, while at war (even if, as was the case of the US in WWI and WWII, no enemy military’s “boots” were traipsing upon any of its territory), did NOT engage in efforts to prevent its citizens from consuming news/information that was detrimental to its war effort.

    True, but I can’t think of a single reason a free person in a free country should then take that country’s curated version of events as the truth. Without questioning it.

    I don’t rely on Ukranian military sources. There is a big difference between the Voice of America and Radio Free Europe. I don’t rely on Russian sources and their empathetic bloggers. Radio Free Europe has reporters embedded with Ukrainian forces. There are no military bloggers embedded with Russian forces. All their news comes from the Kremlin. ISW reports on both Russian and Ukrainian military claims. ISW does not rely on secret sources like the Red Pill of some secret knowledge that some people claim they have. 

    • #18
  19. Steve Fast Member
    Steve Fast
    @SteveFast

    Zafar (View Comment):

    https://www.helsinkitimes.fi/world-int/23512-detaining-gonzalo-lira-another-blow-to-the-freedom-of-press-in-ukraine.html

    He’s not a Ukrainian citizen. During wartime, it’s normal to deport aliens who support the enemy.

    • #19
  20. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Doug Watt (View Comment):
    I don’t rely on Ukranian military sources. There is a big difference between the Voice of America and Radio Free Europe. I don’t rely on Russian sources and their empathetic bloggers. Radio Free Europe has reporters embedded with Ukrainian forces.

    Who pays for RFE?

    There are no military bloggers embedded with Russian forces.

    Consider:

    The scholarly debate on the effects of covering combat operations by embedded journalists started while U.S. troops were still on their way to Baghdad… Even media organizations who participated.. described it as an attempt to present the U.S. side of the war in a sympathetic light…tainting the objectivity that journalists are bound to uphold.

    It would be very hard not to be biased in that situation.

    All their news comes from the Kremlin. ISW reports on both Russian and Ukrainian military claims.

    Sure, but how does it present this news?

    …Barely a day goes by that [ISW] isn’t cited…in…the New York Times, the Washington Post, or the Wall Street Journal. In the past six days—the first six days of this month—it has been cited in at least ten articles that appeared in one of those outlets….

    [The ISW] has neoconservative roots…it has gotten funding from various corners of the arms industry—General Dynamics, Raytheon, lesser known defense contractors, and big companies, like General Motors, that aren’t known as defense contractors but do get Pentagon contracts.

    So when they tell us HIMARs are game changers they might have a conflict of interest.

    …[it] doesn’t spread untruths, even if it’s selective about the truths it promotes and tactical in how it arranges them…propaganda often flies under the radar in America [because it is] subtle…

    To some extent the spin is structural; ISW seems to have a policy of taking battlefield reports from the Ukrainian government seriously but not taking reports from the Russian government seriously.

    Among the consequences of this policy is a subtle and important one:

    Since the Ukrainian government, naturally enough, isn’t eager to concede combat losses, some Russian battlefield successes aren’t very recent by the time Ukraine, and hence ISW, acknowledges them. And you don’t lead with old news!… This slow-motion burial of bad news happens again and again; it’s built into ISW’s methodology.

    Is that what’s happening in Bakhmut right now?

    ISW does not rely on secret sources like the Red Pill of some secret knowledge that some people claim they have.

    I’ll cede the whole Coach Red Pill thing is cringe.  I will also say that, agree with him or not, the man showed immense physical courage in continuing to broadcast his views, even when stuck in Kharkiv and completely vulnerable to the Ukrainian Govt.  He could have just shut up and he refused.

    There are also (unpalatably biased) but) independent reporters in Donbas…a variety of (contradictory) sources of information. RFE is one of them.

    • #20
  21. GPentelie Coolidge
    GPentelie
    @GPentelie

    Zafar (View Comment):
    True, but I can’t think of a single reason a free person in a free country should then take that country’s curated version of events as the truth.  Without questioning it.

    Fully agree.

    • #21
  22. lowtech redneck Coolidge
    lowtech redneck
    @lowtech redneck

    Randy Weivoda (View Comment):

    Postmodern Hoplite (View Comment):

    Can an armistice be imposed on Ukraine that leaves captured territory under Russian occupation? Of course; but I don’t think the Ukrainians will accept such a situation. It’s more likely that Ukraine will conduct a low intensity insurgency in the occupied territories (Crimea and the Donbas) until the Russians are driven out.

    I don’t claim to have any more knowledge of Ukraine than the average American, so forgive me if I misunderstand the situation. Given that the Donbas region has been in a state of rebellion for several years, might not Ukraine be better off to just cut them loose, make a peace deal, and end the war? I strongly suspect that if Ukraine had surrendered immediately it would have encouraged Russia to continue biting off chunks of Ukraine and other neighbors in the future. At this point, if a peace deal is reached Putin can brag about being a conquering hero to the public. Privately, I suspect the rest of the Russian leadership would have had a bellyful of death and expense and would curb Putin from any more special military operations.

    The money Ukraine doesn’t have to spend continuing this war could be spent fortifying their military to further dissuade Russia from trying this again. Seeing Poland arm up and Finland and Sweden joining NATO ought to provide further dissuasion.

    The land Russia occupies is strategically located to make Ukraine (and to a lesser extent, Eastern and Central Europe) economically dependent on a hostile power if surrendered-Russia didn’t invade to aggrandize themselves so much as they did to prevent Ukraine (and Eastern Europe) from breaking free from Russian leverage through the exploitation of Black Sea oil and gas.

    • #22
  23. Raxxalan Member
    Raxxalan
    @Raxxalan

    Zafar (View Comment):

    https://www.helsinkitimes.fi/world-int/23512-detaining-gonzalo-lira-another-blow-to-the-freedom-of-press-in-ukraine.html

    While I appreciate the primary source link my internet security does not apparently like the primary source.  Can you provide a quick synopsis? I am not trying to be snarky here. I’ll allow that this is most likely a me problem and not any issue with the validity of primary source, in fact I may be more likely to give it credence since it is blocked.

    • #23
  24. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Steve Fast (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    https://www.helsinkitimes.fi/world-int/23512-detaining-gonzalo-lira-another-blow-to-the-freedom-of-press-in-ukraine.html

    He’s not a Ukrainian citizen. During wartime, it’s normal to deport aliens who support the enemy.

    Let’s see if they do.

    After Assange (an Australian citizen, resident in the UK, was accused of breaking US law while in Britain….something which nobody in Britain, or Australia, or indeed anywhere else in the free world seems to see as a sovereignty creep issue – perhaps we’re all just bowing to reality?) I’m less confident.

    • #24
  25. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Raxxalan (View Comment):
    https://www.helsinkitimes.fi/world-int/23512-detaining-gonzalo-lira-another-blow-to-the-freedom-of-press-in-ukraine.html

    voila:

    The Ukrainian Security Service (SBU) arrested Gonzalo Lira, a US-Chilean national residing in Kharkiv, on suspicions of harbouring pro-Russian sentiments. This marks the second time Lira has been apprehended by the SBU….He was subsequently instructed not to leave the city and prohibited from discussing his arrest….

    On May 5, the SBU website [alleged] that Lira was among the first to support Russian invaders and glorify their war crimes. It also accuses him of discrediting Ukraine’s military-political leadership and Defense Forces. The SBU claims that Lira filmed provocative videos featuring Ukrainian defenders and insulted them.

    Lira disseminated his “streams” on his YouTube and Telegram channels, amassing nearly 300,000 subscribers…

    …Ukraine’s parliament enacted [2 laws] that…prohibit mass media from justifying or legitimising the denial of Russia’s armed aggression in Ukraine and the occupation of its territories. They also forbid the glorification of individuals involved in the aggression or administration of occupied areas.

    The Ukrainian Criminal Code now…establishes liability for threatening or insulting military personnel and their families [or] the justification or denial of Russian military aggression, the occupation of Ukrainian territories, and the glorification of those involved in the aggression or occupation. Penalties…range from arrest for up to 6 months to imprisonment for up to 8 years….

    The SBU filmed Lira’s arrest, during which heavily armed agents were involved. All participants’ faces, except Lira’s, were blurred out. A close-up of a smartphone displaying an image of Lira’s children as a screensaver was also left un-blurred…The metal soundtrack from Override Spedup fades down enough to hear the words of a special forces member telling Lira while tapping his arm: “Welcome to Ukraine.”

    …Ukraine’s recent implementation of laws criminalising dissent, banning opposition political parties, nationalising the media, and even persecuting the Ukrainian Orthodox Church for maintaining canonical communion with Moscow …have been criticised for undermining democratic values and creating a chilling effect on freedom of expression.

    The detainment of Gonzalo Lira…raises questions about the Zelensky administration’s dedication to democratic principles and the obligation of its Western supporters to address these concerns….

    Since the beginning of the conflict in Ukraine, Western media and governments have systematically overlooked or even suppressed news and information about any undemocratic, criminal, or corrupt activities or even war crimes committed by the Ukrainian side of the conflict, while emphasising the same from the Russian side.

    Gonzalo[‘s] last tweet on April 22 mentioned the names of several Ukrainian dissidents who have been killed or arrested by the Kyiv regime. The list includes Volodymyr Struk, a Ukrainian politician who was abducted and killed in March 2022 during the Russian invasion of Ukraine, and Denis Kireev, a Ukrainian official executed in the street shortly after attending the first round of peace talks between Russia and Ukraine in Belarus.

    • #25
  26. HeavyWater Inactive
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

     

    • #26
  27. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    The tweet:

    For the truth about the Zelensky regime, Google these names:

    Vlodymyr Struk
    Denis Kireev
    Mikhail & Aleksander Kononovich
    Nestor Shufrych
    Yan Taksyur
    Dmitri Djangirov
    Elena Berezhnaya

    Once again: If you haven’t heard from me in 12 hours or more, put my name on this list.

    GL

    — Gonzalo Lira (@GonzaloLira1968) April 22, 2022

    • #27
  28. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

     

    And the gang’s all HERE!!!!!

    I confess I really enjoy these convos, even if we usually end up going in circles….

    • #28
  29. HeavyWater Inactive
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

    https://euromaidanpress.com/2023/05/12/german-armsmaker-rheinmetall-sets-up-joint-venture-with-ukraine-to-repair-and-build-tanks/?swcfpc=1

     

    • #29
  30. HeavyWater Inactive
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

     

     

     

     

    • #30
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