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The Battle for Bakhmut
The battle for Bakhmut has lasted for about nine months. It is the bloodiest and most intense fight in Europe since WWII. Advances and retreats are measured in two to six kilometers increments.
Thousands of Russian and Ukrainian forces have been killed in this battle as Russian forces try to encircle the city, and Ukrainian forces try to prevent the taking of the city.
Once again, the following video shows the grunts in the field. I’m not interested in the policy wonk views in the West, nor the Kremlin’s perpetual aggrievement of losing the old Soviet Empire. This fight has become like WWI trench warfare with newer and more deadly weapons.
My opinion is that this war is not going to end anytime soon. Regardless of the past history between Russia and Ukraine, it should be obvious that Ukrainians are fighting for hearth and home.
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Published in Military
But those are the only quotes that got a spam can image in response.
Posting those images in response to EVERYTHING Heavy Water posted WOULD be excessive. But that’s not what happened at all.
There are plenty of substantive posts (where he just commented, or even added comment) which weren’t responded to in that way. Just check the last few pages.
That said – sure, no more cans of spam – but I do want to make the point it wasn’t reflexive or unthinking on GPentelie’s part. And it was aimed at posts, not at a poster.
Also – thanks for your response.
@gpentelie — I admire your industry.
To verify whether or not each new comment meets criterion #2, you have to repeatedly review the 300 previous comments, to make sure the new one “has absolutely nothing to do with any tangential sub-topics anyone else had been engaging in.”
Here I’m assuming you’re not an AI (ChatGPentelie?) with those 300 earlier comments loaded in your database.
I find posted tweets a little annoying, too, because they constantly load and reload as I page through the comments. The contents are often interesting, even if my conclusion is merely “promising — if true”.
Links can be problematic because they may be presented in an (intentionally or unintentionally) misleading way. In 2004, for example, an attack CV of George W. Bush was circulated, with each accusation sourced to a URL. But when I checked the URLs, I found that not even one actually corroborated the point being made.
We had an example of this here, when a URL to a BBC article was presented as showing how the US fomented the 2014 Euromaidan Revolution; when actually it merely showed the US trying to nudge the various Ukrainian patriot factions into working together against the quislings.
The giant Spam can is the visual equivalent of blasting an air horn during a debate. A small Spam can would have been less offensive and annoying.
However, the appropriate response to alleged spam would have been: “I think this is spam because …” followed by a reasoned explanation.
And what is the thinking spammer’s response to that? A direct rebuttal? Or another quote, this time referencing the Revolution of Dignity?
Presumably, to explain why the accuser is wrong.
For example, using GPentelie’s criteria, he might demonstrate that the alleged spam actually constitutes a response to an issue raised by somebody else’s comment.
Did you see that response?
Reread 330 comments to see if this ideal scenario ever played out? I’ll give it a pass. But you’re welcome to try.
I don’t think it did. Which is the point.
Oh, goodness, I should hope not. After all, even Ricochet Moderators have a life to enjoy, I suspect. ;)
Thank you for taking the time. Very much appreciated, Randy.
Very true. But are you ready to be “wowed”? ‘Cause I did go through the entire thread again (I can be quite, shall we say, “focused” when the mood strikes; it’s a quirk o’ mine), and here are the sad stats in regards to just how many spam type vs. normal posts he ever so generously shared with us in this thread:
Page 1: 3 out of 3 (ugh)
Page 2: 3 out of 6
Page 3: 6 out of 6 (ugh, again)
Page 4: 4 out of 9
Page 5: none out of 5 (gold star performance!)
Page 6: 11 out of 16 (note: that’s more than a third of the total # of comments on that page; ugh)
Page 7: none out of 6 (another gold star performance!)
Page 8: 6 out of 10
Page 9: 3 out of 10
Page 10: 2 out of 9 (this was the page where “Painter Jean” stepped in at the end)
That totals up to … 38 out of 80. Just about half. Furthermore, that’s 38 in a thread that, up to that point, had 300 comments. Good grief, how pathetic.
Anyway, what’s done is done. Moving on. Hopefully, he got the message.
Again, I appreciate your taking the time, Randy.
I did not view the comments I was posting as SPAM. I viewed my comments as broadly relevant to the original topic.
I have taken the view that anything that would impact the broader Ukraine-Russia conflict, including other countries providing military or humanitarian aid, including GDP figures for countries providing that aid and including the overall “health” of Russian society, would have an indirect impact on the battle for Bakhmut or would shed light on why the battle for Bakhmut is an important part of the broader Ukraine-Russia conflict.
That would be my defense of the comments I presented.
However, if a majority of commenters on this thread (not just Zafar and GPentelie) communicated to me that they would prefer that we restrict our discussion to the battle of Bakhmut only and no other news items indirectly impacting that battle, I would respect that.
What I do not respect is a single person, GPentelie, nominating himself as Moderator of the Thread.
ADDED:
I have thought of an easy way to resolve this disagreement over what is SPAM and what is material related to the original post, even if not directly related.
That would be for me to post a new conservation titled, “The Russian-Ukraine War and Related Issues.” I would discuss, in the original post, the topic of various nations providing military assistance to Ukraine, other nations such as Japan and South Korea providing non-lethal aid to Ukraine, the various countries implementing economic sanctions on Ukraine, the GDPs of the nations allied with Ukraine comapred to Russia’s GDP, Russia’s life expectancy compared to those of the nations allied with Ukraine and other issues that might be of relevance.
Limited our discussion to the battle of Bakhmut only might appeal to some. But my bet is that discussing, say, whether the Ukraine’s allies will providing F-16 jets to Ukraine isn’t something that must be kept quiet.
Dude, I am not saying you should or shouldn’t post anything here. (It’s not my post, to start with!) But I’m the same wrt GPentelie’s posts. If anybody asked me (which they haven’t) leave them all in. The posts. The pictures of spam tins as responses. All of it. I don’t think we should be needlessly rude to each other, but spirited discussion (and pointed communication) isn’t intrinsically rude, it’s what makes Ricochet interesting.
Again unsolicited, but if someone keeps posting pictures of spam tins in response, your point isn’t getting across to them. Perhaps spell it out and discuss it?
I view GPentelie as someone who just doesn’t like it when someone posts something that makes Ukraine’s position look relatively better or makes Russia’s situation look relatively worse.
So, when GPentelie posted those SPAM pictures, I viewed it as someone sulking, not someone that needed to be seriously engaged with.
People who are subtly cheering for Putin aren’t really “reachable” in my view and are best ignored.
But in any case, I have just posted a new conversation on the Ukraine-Russia war and, as I explain in the post itself, I welcome comments about issues that are indirectly related to the war, including things like the GDP estimates of the nations allied with Ukraine and Russia and anything else that someone might want to bring into the discusssion.
Cheering for Ukraine or Russia and discussion of what’s going on can be hard to combine.
The Russians have taken Bakhmut, according to multiple internet sources I’ve kept an eye on over the past year. Here’s one of them:
“NEWS UPDATE BAKHMUT/ARTEMOVSK LATE AFTERNOON MAY 20 Bakmut has fallen. Ukrainian forces in the SW corner of the city and near the city in the fields has retreated. Mopping up operations will continue until May 25th. But it seems Bakhmut is fully in Wagner/russian hands now. There are more rumours about other progress for the russian side, as for example the capture of Khromove as well, but such rumours tend to run wild when big things happen, so until otherwise proven I will discard those rumours. Wagner forces and many prorussians are or will celebrate today. They got their special date, May 20th, now known as the liberation day, of Mariupol and Bakhmut. Ukrainian authorities and many proukrainians will probably deny the fall of Bakhmut a couple of days at least. When Soledar fell it took two weeks until ukrainian authorities conceded defeat. I will write a little more detailed update in a while and both talk about what happened during the battle, it’s consequences and future possibilities. Last but not least I must express my respect to all those fine warriors from both sides who has fought hard and bravely during the battle of Bakhmut. And also ask everybody to give some thoughts to the tens of thousands of soldiers who have been killed, maimed or wounded during the battle.”
https://twitter.com/MikaelValterss1/status/1659953519544225792
Wouldn’t the appropriate response to a picture of a can of Spam be another picture?
A can opener? A dunce cap? A hand with thumb to nose and fingers waggling?
I’m sure it’s a volatile situation:
[Wagner Group commander] Prigozhin has said Wagner fighters are on the cusp of pushing Ukrainian troops out of their last foothold in the built-up area on the city’s western outskirts. But he also accused Russia’s regular forces of abandoning ground north and south of the city, raising the risk of Russian troops inside being encircled.
“Unfortunately, units of the Russian defence ministry have withdrawn up to 570 metres (1,880 feet) to the north of Bakhmut, exposing our flanks,” Prigozhin said in his latest voice message on Thursday.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/5/19/bakhmut-battle-rages-as-ukraine-claims-advances-russian-retreat
I can’t say it would immensely surprise me if the Ukrainians should run out of bullets faster than the Russians run out of untrained conscripts and criminals to throw at them. They’re now emptying Asian villages, I hear.
What has surprised me is that Putin has brought back the human wave assault; something I thought was peculiar to Communism, with its total contempt for the lives of even its own people. Then again, just because Russia abandoned Communism doesn’t mean KGB agent Putin ever did.
One wonder’s how much they have really accomplished here other than rendering the Wagner group combat ineffective. It doesn’t sound like they are going to be able to exploit this. I guess on the grand scorecard it goes in the Russian column, but Pyrrhus comes to mind in reading this. If it is true. It is always difficult to read situations in Ukraine, since both sides tend to engage in excessive propaganda.
Well, the Russians will now control a strategically important transportation/supply/logistics hub, from which they’ll be able to stage their next push westward. What used to be a major obstacle is now a major asset.
Wagner’s Prighozhin announced the other day that they’ll be transferring control of the city to the regular Russian Army by June 5, at which point the Wagnerites will get some rest, recharge their batteries, replenish their ranks, train up new recruits, get resupplied, and get ready for their next assignment.
Bakhmut wasn’t a particular strategic position though from what I have read the US has been trying to talk the Ukrainians into repositioning out of it for quite a while. It wasn’t particularly important for Russia either except for Prighozhin’s pride. That is until it really became the only front in their winter offensive where they were seeing any success. It may be that it has morale value now, since people have been fighting over it for months, but it doesn’t seem like it is particular strategic important. It will be interesting to see if the Russians are able to hold onto the city after Wagner withdraws. It will also be interesting to see if Wagner can reconstitute itself, and what that looks like.
If Wagner is basically an army-for-hire, are there that many people who want to risk their lives for a paycheck?
Compared to the regular Russian military? Perhaps. Also they were recruiting from prisons so it may be better than the alternative. Wagner has forces outside of Ukraine as well. They could recall those if they wanted/ needed to reconstitute for more work in Ukraine.
Au contraire. Its strategic importance was widely recognized by all … until recently. To wit:
“Conquering Bakhmut as a strategically important regional transport and logistics center would be extremely welcome for Russian forces, although this advantage depends on how much of the city’s infrastructure is usable. The Kharkiv-Rostov and Donetsk-Kiev highways pass through Bakhmut, which are of great strategic importance for any army that controls them. More importantly, the capture of the city by Russian troops would represent a springboard for further advances and the conquest of two larger cities in the Donetsk region that have been targeted by pro-Russian separatists since 2014: Kramatorsk and Slovyansk.
In the case of the capture of Bakhmut, both would be within easy range of Russian artillery, and at the same time Ukrainian logistics routes would be cut off. The nearby town of Chasiv Yar, west of Bakhmut in the district of the same name, would be the next to be hit by Russian forces, although it is on higher ground and Ukrainian forces are believed to have built defensive fortifications nearby. In any case, the Russians are forced to occupy Bakhmut, Kramatorsk and Slovyansk and other nearby towns and villages in order to occupy the entire territory of the Donetsk People’s Republic, which together with the Luhansk People’s Republic, Zaporizhia and Kherson regions, was annexed by the Russian Federation on September 30 last year.”
When Zelensky spoke to the special joint session of Congress last December (exactly 5 months ago, as it happens), Bakhmut featured mighty prominently. He mentioned it 8 times, most notably in this passage:
“Just like the Battle of Saratoga, the fight for Bakhmut will change the trajectory of our war for independence and for freedom.”
At the end of his speech, he unfurled a Ukrainian flag signed by some of the troops he had visited in Bakhmut the previous day, and presented it to Speaker Pelosi and VP Harris.
But now, of course, the narrative needs to change, in “Oceania was never important!” Orwellian fashion.
Links:
https://www.eurasiareview.com/21052023-bakhmut-the-origin-and-development-of-a-strategically-important-city-analysis/
https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/22/politics/zelensky-congress-address-transcript/index.html
I’ll have to do some more research on it. It doesn’t line up with most of my sources. I agree that Zelensky’s position was that it was important; however, Zelensky’s position is that the loss of any part of Ukraine is important so I don’t set a lot of store on that.
Good. Please make sure you look at material that is more than 5 months old, i.e. before the narrative began to shift in response to the realization that the Ukrainians were not going to be able to hold onto Bakhmut for too much longer.
Not all parts are of “Saratoga”-level importance. Another nod to Orwell, if I may:
All parts of Ukraine are equally important, but some parts of Ukraine are more equally important than others.
EDITED TO ADD this hilarious composite of CNN’s shifting narrative regarding Bakhmut’s importance since October:
You mean from the beginning of the campaign to take Bakhmut?
A politician is still a politician, which means they lie with virtually every breath they take. Also the fact that a place is of limited strategic importance doesn’t mean it hasn’t acquired symbolic importance. I am sure, for example, this will be used to fuel the argument that Ukraine can’t win and that the tide is turning towards the Russians.
Oh, you can go even further than that, if you like. All the way back to late 2014, when the Kiev versus Donbas separatists hostilities began. There’s a reason why Kiev, even back then, viewed Bakhmut as a mighty important city to fortify and such.
Zelensky’s referring to Bakhmut as having “Saratoga”-like significance reflected the consensus (both internally and externally) as to its general importance, give or take. IOW, “Bakhmut = Saratoga” may have been an exaggeration on his part, but definitely not a lie. The “new, improved” narrative (along the lines of “Bakhmut, schbakhmut. Ain’t no BFD. Never was.”), however, IS an outright lie.
The significance of Bakhmut is that the Russians have lost an enormous number of soldiers over the past year trying to capture it and now that they are very close to holding all of Bakhmut, they are likely to be encircled and destroyed.
I thought it was a rail/highway hub? And because the Russian Army moves supplies along rail lines by preference, it advances most easily (with least difficulty?) along rail lines (as opposed to cross country). [Ditto highways.] Anybody?