A False Dichotomy: Be Patsies, or Be Like Them

 

I’m pretty much a broken record on the theme of speaking out, arguing that conservatives have to express conservative ideas boldly, and as clearly and with as much grace as we can muster. One common response to this is the claim that we’ve tried that and it hasn’t worked, and that now we have to adopt the techniques of our opponents.

I ran into this just today, when I suggested on another thread that the woke practice of “doxxing” (publishing personal information about private citizens) and getting people fired for the things they say or do on their own time was something we conservatives should not embrace. I’ve tried to make the same point on other occasions about such things as violating people’s first amendment rights, electoral cheating, and lying to further the conservative agenda. These are all things our opponents do. I don’t think that we should do them.

A lot of people seem to be of the opinion that we really have tried boldly speaking out, and that that’s now been proven to be inadequate. I don’t believe that. I think that the majority of conservatives are “normal” Americans (which Old Bathos very competently described in this comment), and normal Americans are reluctant to counter the prevailing media/academic/entertainment narrative that ever-faster seeps like a miasma into every facet of our lives.

Most of us don’t want to be the cranky relative at the family gathering arguing that mask mandates probably do more harm than good. Most of us don’t want to be the one who points out that BLM is a fraud. Most of us don’t want to be the insensitive so-and-so who argues that the “trans” movement is a dangerous fad, that America is as far from a racist country as one is likely to get, and that what torments our black communities is bad policies and broken culture, not anti-black bigotry.

So most of us don’t speak out. Many aren’t equipped — with information, temperament, or opportunity — to express those views. Others are worried about the professional or social blowback. There are lots of reasons why conservatives tend to be quiet, but the reality is that we do.

Pay attention to how free progressives are to give vent to their opinions. People who parrot the conventional leftist narrative clearly feel safe repeating what they hear on the radio and television, read in the paper, learn in school. It’s the air they breathe — that we all breathe. It takes no boldness or real conviction to go along with what looks like the majority view — even if it isn’t really the majority view.

Those of us who can speak up without endangering our livelihoods have to do so, and do so in ways that other normal people find persuasive and inspiring. We have to be reasonably well informed, well self-controlled, and understand that others need our example so that they, too, feel more free to stand up and be heard.

We have the advantage that we make sense and they do not. Most Americans still believe the things we believe. They just don’t realize that they’re in the majority, and that, if they speak out, they’ll be joined by others.

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  1. Charlotte Member
    Charlotte
    @Charlotte

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):
    Well, I don’t agree with this, either.

    😂😂😂

    • #151
  2. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    . . .

    That’s how I try to do it. There are some common sense rules I try to follow (not always successfully):

    1. Always be polite and never lose your temper. Avoid seeming like a bully.
    2. Never argue with a person on the left unless there’s an audience that might be persuaded. Otherwise it’s just a frustrating waste of time and energy. Always remember that you’re speaking to the audience; they’re the ones you want to win over.
    3. Always be truthful in your arguments.
    4. Be reasonably well informed, and keep it simple and focused on things the audience values.
    5. Never argue with an intoxicated person.

    Sometimes there are opportunities to do that. Sometimes it just isn’t the right time. It isn’t always easy. But I think more of us have to do it, and more often.

    I suggest a different common sense rule:

    1. Don’t imagine that you can live properly by following a short list of simple rules.

    Hank, I particularly disagree with your first rule. It creates no room for righteous indignation. I’m not sure that your rule 1 is scriptural.

    I seem to recall Jesus clearing the Temple. I recall him calling Peter “Satan.” I recall him telling the Sermon on the Mount crowd that they were evil. I recall him calling a Jewish crowd something like “sons of your father the Devil.” I recall him calling the scribes and Pharisees a “brood of vipers” and “whitewashed tombs” and telling them that they make their followers “twice as much a son of Hell as you are.” Or something like that.

    Jerry, if I were Jesus I would probably use a different list of rules. But we don’t have a problem with people being excessively polite, rather with the opposite. Of course people will adjust rules as they see fit. We’re not robots. I’m just trying to provide some common sense guidance.

    One way I tend to think that perhaps I may disagree with you just a little, is that that we think we have rational thoughts and wish to convince people through rational dialog.  However, those we wish to convince are irrational and punitive, and not only can we not convince them of anything, but we incur their wrath.

    And on top of this, many if not most, of the left get their wealth from the government that they are busily redefining and defending, either as employees or as subsidees (I think I made that word up), and they have a concrete wall of self-interest that protects their views, a wall that they will not bear to have broken down by anyone.

    • #152
  3. RufusRJones Member
    RufusRJones
    @RufusRJones

    RufusRJones (View Comment):

    RufusRJones (View Comment):

    Skyler (View Comment):

    RufusRJones (View Comment):

    Samuel Block (View Comment):
    I’ve ruined my fair share of family dinners without coming close to being a crank.

    “Define assault weapon”. I didn’t say anything else.

    That was my biggest mistake of 2016. My brother-in-law went insane. lol

    That’s the problem, isn’t it? You can’t even talk about things anymore.

    I have so many examples, but I just can’t do it today.

    In this case, he has heard the word so much he thinks it is actually functional and meaningful, when it really isn’t. Why would the Democrats use a non-functional word?

    All he did over and over is physically act out a semiautomatic gun firing really fast. Over and over. He eventually left the house without any explanation. It was nuts.

    He had never thought about any of this.

    I need to add that he was yelling the whole time. He was effectively yelling that semi automatics are* assault weapons.

    • #153
  4. OmegaPaladin Moderator
    OmegaPaladin
    @OmegaPaladin

    James Lileks (View Comment):

    OmegaPaladin (View Comment):
    If Antifa can riot, the Proud Boys can show up to stop them

    That’s not the same standard. The same standard is this: if Antifa can riot, the Proud Boys can riot. If Antifa can burn down neighborhoods, the Proud Boys can burn down neighborhoods.

    James,

    I suppose, but I never saw the appeal of burning a neighborhood.   I also don’t need a big screen TV bad enough to put someone out of business.   I meant more in the sense of street violence.   People normally do not support people fighting in the street outside of entertainment .

    • #154
  5. Franco Member
    Franco
    @Franco

    Consider if you will, that when these people utter falsehoods in front of you, their aim is to “out” you, and little more. Yes they are parading their power, often unconsciously but nevertheless. 
    They do not want to have a discussion or debate. They want a ‘hit and run’. They are not interested in the truth or facts. They are interested in promoting their narratives and discovering who the stealth enemies are. They need reassurance and they, by God, will find it, either in your agreement,  or in demonizing you if you counter them with a different opinion or factual citation. 

    Often, our silence is enough to rankle their suspicions. However sometimes silence is necessary.

    With this knowledge, it is up to us to chose how and when to participate. It’s mostly a losing situation for us. 
    We lose “friends” when we speak out because these people are at war with us – or our ‘side’ first and foremost. Any so-called friendship is secondary.
    They do not want to hear information that conflicts with their belief system. You, my friends, are a threat to everything they hold dear, especially their well-crafted identity of being a ‘good person’ because of their beliefs. But they will rationalize like a drug addict or an alcoholic when confronted. If you get close, they will lash out. The more effective you are, the more they will hate you.

    These people are psychologically damaged and should be avoided. Certainly avoid talking politics.

    If I must, the first approach I take is epistemological. How do you know that? What cable channels do you watch? Usually the answer will tell you a lot, usually enough to stop debating with them. But always question their sources, I think that’s the only way to get to them ( the ones who are capable).

    I told someone close to me finally, “consider that it’s you who is in a cult” He laughed heartily. But I think it still shook his world. 

    • #155
  6. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    MarciN (View Comment):

    I’ve been around the Internet so long that I actually remember how it started. :-)

    Al Gore, right?

    We won’t get to the right forty characters without a lot of analysis and argument. Ricochet can help. Ricochet is like Twitter in that it reveals the current public opinion, at least as I’ve seen it expressed on the Wall Street Journal and other right-leaning websites. If your ideas work here, they will stand out everywhere.

    Ricochet is just the best there is on the internet.

    I’m digging Parler myself, for the most part.

    • #156
  7. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Skyler (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Skyler (View Comment):

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    Skyler (View Comment):

    Henry Racette (View Comment):
    Ah. Well then, we’re back to law enforcement. We agree that the law should be enforced.

    Nah. Military actions are not law enforcement. I’m talking about using the US army to stop them. That is legal, but absolutely not law enforcement. Posse Comitatus should be suspended to destroy them.

    Hmm. A moment ago you said that you weren’t talking about extra-judicial violence. Now you’re saying that you’re calling for violence that isn’t law enforcement. Do you see the courts being in charge of the military, somehow? Or are we back to talking about extra-judicial violence?

    In either case, I think the military is probably overkill in this context. I think Antifa gets away with it because everyone treats them like they’re somehow noble, rather than the loudmouth street punks they are. If the police stood up to them and enforced the law when they came around, I think it would end pretty quickly.

    Military law is not extrajudicial.

    Oh? How about if we refer to your recommendation as “martial law?”

    I don’t think he’s talking about summary executions. (But I really don’t know.)

    Of course not.

    Well, I didn’t think so, but there are others who appear, in their casual writing, to be calling for them sarcastically.

    • #157
  8. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Franco (View Comment):

    Consider if you will, that when these people utter falsehoods in front of you, their aim is to “out” you, and little more. Yes they are parading their power, often unconsciously but nevertheless.
    They do not want to have a discussion or debate. They want a ‘hit and run’. They are not interested in the truth or facts. They are interested in promoting their narratives and discovering who the stealth enemies are. They need reassurance and they, by God, will find it, either in your agreement, or in demonizing you if you counter them with a different opinion or factual citation.

    Often, our silence is enough to rankle their suspicions. However sometimes silence is necessary.

    With this knowledge, it is up to us to chose how and when to participate. It’s mostly a losing situation for us.
    We lose “friends” when we speak out because these people are at war with us – or our ‘side’ first and foremost. Any so-called friendship is secondary.
    They do not want to hear information that conflicts with their belief system. You, my friends, are a threat to everything they hold dear, especially their well-crafted identity of being a ‘good person’ because of their beliefs. But they will rationalize like a drug addict or an alcoholic when confronted. If you get close, they will lash out. The more effective you are, the more they will hate you.

    These people are psychologically damaged and should be avoided. Certainly avoid talking politics.

    If I must, the first approach I take is epistemological. How do you know that? What cable channels do you watch? Usually the answer will tell you a lot, usually enough to stop debating with them. But always question their sources, I think that’s the only way to get to them ( the ones who are capable).

    I told someone close to me finally, “consider that it’s you who is in a cult” He laughed heartily. But I think it still shook his world.

    Franco!  Welcome back!

    • #158
  9. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Caltory (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    You’ve lost me. What question did I allegedly beg–the premise that a false reduction to two options is not a sufficient reason to call an argument a false dichotomy?

    I’m claiming that your use of the words “false reduction” (thus my emphasis in quoting you) presumes its own conclusion.

    It doesn’t.

    What exactly do you think my conclusion is here?

    It is one thing to say “The assumption that there are Patsies and Non-Patsies is false because the Universal Quantifier Human Beings contains Existential Quantifiers of Patsies, Non-Patsies, the Ignorant, (and possibly more).”

    What are you talking about?  This is a topic I have not addressed in this thread, or indeed ever on Ricochet–until # 163 below!

    It is something else to say “The reduction of the Universal Quantifier Human Beings into the two Existential Quantifiers in your thesis is faulty.” This is how I interpreted your remark about “false reduction.” (Apologies if that is an unfair characterization of what you intended.)

    I daresay it is fair!  But it’s very likely mistaken. It has no connection at all that I can discern to anything I actually said.

    Late last night I had an idea that might clear this up! Did you think that in comment # 5 I was accusing HR of making a false dilemma fallacy?  It was nothing of the sort: I was accusing him of giving the wrong name to a fallacy which he correctly pointed out that others had made.

    My memory (a very large and inflamed Achilles heel) of dichotomy academically is that it requires two mutually exclusive and exhaustive sets. . . . (I noticed you suggested as much with your reference to a trichotomy.)

    I only mentioned “trichotomy” to clarify the terms.

    (Yet another summary: If you think a dichotomy correctly divides two options, but should have given us a third option–HR’s entirely correct critique in his opening post–then your critique amounts to this: “This is a dichotomy, but it should be a trichotomy.”  That’s fine, but since most of us have heard the names of some fallacies, it’s better to use the safe name “false dilemma fallacy” in keeping with its etymology and the definition in every textbook that defines it. Just don’t presume that an incorrect reduction of choices makes an argument a “false dichotomy fallacy” unless you are quite comfortable abandoning the dictionary definition of a “dichotomy;” every true dichotomy divides two choices from one another.)

    My criticism of your analysis simply attacks its form, viz: stipulating that a Universal Set contained a false reduction of subsets. On the substantive question of whether the Existential sets of Patsies and Non-Patsies exhaustively form a Universal set, I am doubtful–. . . .

    My analysis was on a different topic. I was talking only about the patterns of fallacious arguments and about their names.

    • #159
  10. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    RufusRJones (View Comment):

    RufusRJones (View Comment):

    Skyler (View Comment):

    RufusRJones (View Comment):

    Samuel Block (View Comment):
    I’ve ruined my fair share of family dinners without coming close to being a crank.

    “Define assault weapon”. I didn’t say anything else.

    That was my biggest mistake of 2016. My brother-in-law went insane. lol

    That’s the problem, isn’t it? You can’t even talk about things anymore.

    I have so many examples, but I just can’t do it today.

    In this case, he has heard the word so much he thinks it is actually functional and meaningful, when it really isn’t. Why would the Democrats use a non-functional word?

    All he did over and over is physically act out a semiautomatic gun firing really fast. Over and over. He eventually left the house without any explanation. It was nuts.

    He had never thought about any of this.

    Because those are the best kind of words for getting what whey want.

    • #160
  11. Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… Member
    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio…
    @ArizonaPatriot

    Charlotte (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):
    Well, I don’t agree with this, either.

    😂😂😂

    What are you suggesting, Charlotte?  That I am a contrarian?

    No, I’m not!

    :)

    • #161
  12. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    I would just like to point out, for the record, that patsies vs non-patsies would indeed represent a dichotomy.  If someone wants to add a third category, such as the ignorant, then either that is already part of non-patsies, or if they want to say that both patsies and non-patsies could be ignorant, then it doesn’t really change the dichotomy.  WHY someone might be either a patsy or a non-patsy, doesn’t change those categories.  Ignorant patsies or ignorant non-patsies, also doesn’t change the original classification.

    • #162
  13. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    kedavis (View Comment):

    I would just like to point out, for the record, that patsies vs non-patsies would indeed represent a dichotomy. If someone wants to add a third category, such as the ignorant, then either that is already part of non-patsies, or if they want to say that both patsies and non-patsies could be ignorant, then it doesn’t really change the dichotomy. WHY someone might be either a patsy or a non-patsy, doesn’t change those categories. Ignorant patsies or ignorant non-patsies, also doesn’t change the original classification.

    Yes.

    Even guinea pigs and skyscrapers and teacups and jacaranda trees are non-patsies.

    • #163
  14. Caltory Coolidge
    Caltory
    @Caltory

    kedavis (View Comment):

    I would just like to point out, for the record, that patsies vs non-patsies would indeed represent a dichotomy. If someone wants to add a third category, such as the ignorant, then either that is already part of non-patsies, or if they want to say that both patsies and non-patsies could be ignorant, then it doesn’t really change the dichotomy. WHY someone might be either a patsy or a non-patsy, doesn’t change those categories. Ignorant patsies or ignorant non-patsies, also doesn’t change the original classification.

    Good point. My error was assuming that the ignorant would not fit into either patsies or non-patsies subsets. Of course, the ignorant are excellent candidates for patsyism.

    • #164
  15. Caltory Coolidge
    Caltory
    @Caltory

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Caltory (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    You’ve lost me. What question did I allegedly beg–the premise that a false reduction to two options is not a sufficient reason to call an argument a false dichotomy?

    I’m claiming that your use of the words “false reduction” (thus my emphasis in quoting you) presumes its own conclusion.

    It doesn’t.

    What exactly do you think my conclusion is here?

    It is one thing to say “The assumption that there are Patsies and Non-Patsies is false because the Universal Quantifier Human Beings contains Existential Quantifiers of Patsies, Non-Patsies, the Ignorant, (and possibly more).”

    What are you talking about? This is a topic I have not addressed in this thread, or indeed ever on Ricochet–until # 163 below!

    It is something else to say “The reduction of the Universal Quantifier Human Beings into the two Existential Quantifiers in your thesis is faulty.” This is how I interpreted your remark about “false reduction.” (Apologies if that is an unfair characterization of what you intended.)

    I daresay it is fair! But it’s very likely mistaken. It has no connection at all that I can discern to anything I actually said.

    Late last night I had an idea that might clear this up! Did you think that in comment # 5 I was accusing HR of making a false dilemma fallacy? It was nothing of the sort: I was accusing him of giving the wrong name to a fallacy which he correctly pointed out that others had made.

    My memory (a very large and inflamed Achilles heel) of dichotomy academically is that it requires two mutually exclusive and exhaustive sets. . . . (I noticed you suggested as much with your reference to a trichotomy.)

    I only mentioned “trichotomy” to clarify the terms.

    (Yet another summary: If you think a dichotomy correctly divides two options, but should have given us a third option–HR’s entirely correct critique in his opening post–then your critique amounts to this: “This is a dichotomy, but it should be a trichotomy.” That’s fine, but since most of us have heard the names of some fallacies, it’s better to use the safe name “false dilemma fallacy” in keeping with its etymology and the definition in every textbook that defines it. Just don’t presume that an incorrect reduction of choices makes an argument a “false dichotomy fallacy” unless you are quite comfortable abandoning the dictionary definition of a “dichotomy;” every true dichotomy divides two choices from one another.)

    My criticism of your analysis simply attacks its form, viz: stipulating that a Universal Set contained a false reduction of subsets. On the substantive question of whether the Existential sets of Patsies and Non-Patsies exhaustively form a Universal set, I am doubtful–. . . .

    My analysis was on a different topic. I was talking only about the patterns of fallacious arguments and about their names.

    The referee, having failed to adequately convey his point, and hearing the crowd buzzing something about a lynching, retires from the ring.

    • #165
  16. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Caltory (View Comment):
    The referee, having failed to adequately convey his point, and hearing the crowd buzzing something about a lynching, retires from the ring.

    From I can tell, you misunderstood me. So my point was not adequately conveyed. As a result, your point was adequately conveyed but on a separate topic.

    • #166
  17. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Caltory (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    I would just like to point out, for the record, that patsies vs non-patsies would indeed represent a dichotomy. If someone wants to add a third category, such as the ignorant, then either that is already part of non-patsies, or if they want to say that both patsies and non-patsies could be ignorant, then it doesn’t really change the dichotomy. WHY someone might be either a patsy or a non-patsy, doesn’t change those categories. Ignorant patsies or ignorant non-patsies, also doesn’t change the original classification.

    Good point. My error was assuming that the ignorant would not fit into either patsies or non-patsies subsets. Of course, the ignorant are excellent candidates for patsyism.

    Well, I think the main point is probably that an actual dichotomy has to be either/or, really by definition.  A coin is a penny, or not a penny.  Nickels don’t get to argue with that, because they’re already not a penny.  One of possibly many options for a false dichotomy, is where the categories are not actually exclusive/all-inclusive, even if the arguer claims they are.  If someone claims that all coins – all current US coins, anyway – are either pennies, or nickels, then dimes etc have an argument.  But patsies/non-patsies would not be a false dichotomy.  Maybe a pointless one, but not false.  :-)

    • #167
  18. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Skyler (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Skyler (View Comment):

    Henry Racette (View Comment):
    You stop short of calling for lawlessness and violence.

    Did I? I said we should kill antifa. I think that is a level of violence that is absolutely required.

    What would be the purpose?

    They would be dead?

     That doesn’t sound like a good reason. Everyone will be dead sooner or later.

    • #168
  19. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Caltory (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    I would just like to point out, for the record, that patsies vs non-patsies would indeed represent a dichotomy. If someone wants to add a third category, such as the ignorant, then either that is already part of non-patsies, or if they want to say that both patsies and non-patsies could be ignorant, then it doesn’t really change the dichotomy. WHY someone might be either a patsy or a non-patsy, doesn’t change those categories. Ignorant patsies or ignorant non-patsies, also doesn’t change the original classification.

    Good point. My error was assuming that the ignorant would not fit into either patsies or non-patsies subsets. Of course, the ignorant are excellent candidates for patsyism.

    Well, I think the main point is probably that an actual dichotomy has to be either/or, really by definition. A coin is a penny, or not a penny. Nickels don’t get to argue with that, because they’re already not a penny. One of possibly many options for a false dichotomy, is where the categories are not actually exclusive/all-inclusive, even if the arguer claims they are. If someone claims that all coins – all current US coins, anyway – are either pennies, or nickels, then dimes etc have an argument. But patsies/non-patsies would not be a false dichotomy. Maybe a pointless one, but not false. :-)

    How about this for a false dichotomy: Pennies are either plastic or paper.

    • #169
  20. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Flicker (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Caltory (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    I would just like to point out, for the record, that patsies vs non-patsies would indeed represent a dichotomy. If someone wants to add a third category, such as the ignorant, then either that is already part of non-patsies, or if they want to say that both patsies and non-patsies could be ignorant, then it doesn’t really change the dichotomy. WHY someone might be either a patsy or a non-patsy, doesn’t change those categories. Ignorant patsies or ignorant non-patsies, also doesn’t change the original classification.

    Good point. My error was assuming that the ignorant would not fit into either patsies or non-patsies subsets. Of course, the ignorant are excellent candidates for patsyism.

    Well, I think the main point is probably that an actual dichotomy has to be either/or, really by definition. A coin is a penny, or not a penny. Nickels don’t get to argue with that, because they’re already not a penny. One of possibly many options for a false dichotomy, is where the categories are not actually exclusive/all-inclusive, even if the arguer claims they are. If someone claims that all coins – all current US coins, anyway – are either pennies, or nickels, then dimes etc have an argument. But patsies/non-patsies would not be a false dichotomy. Maybe a pointless one, but not false. :-)

    How about this for a false dichotomy: Pennies are either plastic or paper.

    That seems like just a false assertion on one side.  But I suppose it might qualify, technically.

    A better example might be, grocery/shopping bags are either plastic or paper.

    That’s actually pretty inclusive, but there are exceptions.

    • #170
  21. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Flicker (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Caltory (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    I would just like to point out, for the record, that patsies vs non-patsies would indeed represent a dichotomy. If someone wants to add a third category, such as the ignorant, then either that is already part of non-patsies, or if they want to say that both patsies and non-patsies could be ignorant, then it doesn’t really change the dichotomy. WHY someone might be either a patsy or a non-patsy, doesn’t change those categories. Ignorant patsies or ignorant non-patsies, also doesn’t change the original classification.

    Good point. My error was assuming that the ignorant would not fit into either patsies or non-patsies subsets. Of course, the ignorant are excellent candidates for patsyism.

    Well, I think the main point is probably that an actual dichotomy has to be either/or, really by definition. A coin is a penny, or not a penny. Nickels don’t get to argue with that, because they’re already not a penny. One of possibly many options for a false dichotomy, is where the categories are not actually exclusive/all-inclusive, even if the arguer claims they are. If someone claims that all coins – all current US coins, anyway – are either pennies, or nickels, then dimes etc have an argument. But patsies/non-patsies would not be a false dichotomy. Maybe a pointless one, but not false. :-)

    How about this for a false dichotomy: Pennies are either plastic or paper.

    That’s a false dilemma.

    • #171
  22. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Caltory (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    I would just like to point out, for the record, that patsies vs non-patsies would indeed represent a dichotomy. If someone wants to add a third category, such as the ignorant, then either that is already part of non-patsies, or if they want to say that both patsies and non-patsies could be ignorant, then it doesn’t really change the dichotomy. WHY someone might be either a patsy or a non-patsy, doesn’t change those categories. Ignorant patsies or ignorant non-patsies, also doesn’t change the original classification.

    Good point. My error was assuming that the ignorant would not fit into either patsies or non-patsies subsets. Of course, the ignorant are excellent candidates for patsyism.

    Well, I think the main point is probably that an actual dichotomy has to be either/or, really by definition. A coin is a penny, or not a penny. Nickels don’t get to argue with that, because they’re already not a penny. One of possibly many options for a false dichotomy, is where the categories are not actually exclusive/all-inclusive, even if the arguer claims they are. If someone claims that all coins – all current US coins, anyway – are either pennies, or nickels, then dimes etc have an argument. But patsies/non-patsies would not be a false dichotomy. Maybe a pointless one, but not false. :-)

    How about this for a false dichotomy: Pennies are either plastic or paper.

    That seems like just a false assertion on one side. But I suppose it might qualify, technically.

    Only on the technicality that it’s a dichotomy and also fallacious. But there’s no fallacy in the division. “You must disapprove either of Trump’s behavior, or of Biden’s; choose now!” is a false dichotomy.

    Or “All coins are either pennies or made of metal.”

    • #172
  23. Skyler Coolidge
    Skyler
    @Skyler

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Skyler (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Skyler (View Comment):

    Henry Racette (View Comment):
    You stop short of calling for lawlessness and violence.

    Did I? I said we should kill antifa. I think that is a level of violence that is absolutely required.

    What would be the purpose?

    They would be dead?

    That doesn’t sound like a good reason. Everyone will be dead sooner or later.

    Okay, the will be dead sooner than later and no longer posing a violent threat to our nation.  Why is that difficult to understand? You might disagree with its merit, but the idea is straightforward.

    • #173
  24. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Why would you want to call something a fallacious dividing into two when the dividing into two is, as far as it goes, not even fallacious?

    • #174
  25. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Why would you want to call something a fallacious dividing into two when the dividing into two is, as far as it goes, not even fallacious?

    Because they think it supports their argument, or their candidate, etc?

    • #175
  26. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Why would you want to call something a fallacious dividing into two when the dividing into two is, as far as it goes, not even fallacious?

    Because they think it supports their argument, or their candidate, etc?

    That’s not a reason.

    This all started with HR considering the argument “Be a patsy, or be a jerk; being a jerk/patsy is wrong; therefore, be a patsy/jerk.”

    That is a terrible argument, and HR correctly named it a fallacy.  Similarly, the recently considered sentences along the lines of “Pennies are either plastic or paper” have fallacies.

    It’s the same fallacy: the fallacy of giving us too few choices.

    It’s not the fallacy incorrectly dividing in twain two options that shouldn’t be divided: We really should not be both jerks and patsies, and coins are not made of both plastic and paper.

    I’m just asking why anyone would want to give a fallacy a poorly fitting name.  Why call something a “false dichotomy fallacy” when it’s not fallaciously dividing the two things it divides?  Language that fits the fallacy is available; we could say, “This is a dichotomy, but it ought to be a trichotomy.”  Better yet, we can use the straightforward fallacy name as defined in the logic textbooks and rooted in the etymology: false dilemma fallacy.

    • #176
  27. Henry Racette Member
    Henry Racette
    @HenryRacette

    For those who may have found the back-and-forth about language exhausting, let me state simply what my intention was with the title of this post (without getting pulled back into a discussion of whether or not my phraseology was inspired).

    Many people with whom I speak seem to believe that we have two choices: be weak, polite, civil, law-abiding patsies, and lose to the left. Or become like the left, disrespectful and dishonest and threatening and violent, and have some chance of winning against them.

    I think that it is a mistake to believe that those are our choices. I think we have another choice, one that we have barely begun to exercise, and that is to speak up boldly and clearly and truthfully, even at the risk of causing offense, and then stand our ground.

    That means getting over our natural tendency not to rock the boat, not to stick out, not to too obviously contradict the prevailing narrative.

    That’s the point of the title, and of the post.

    • #177
  28. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    For those who may have found the back-and-forth about language exhausting, let me state simply what my intention was with the title of this post (without getting pulled back into a discussion of whether or not my phraseology was inspired).

    Many people with whom I speak seem to believe that we have two choices: be weak, polite, civil, law-abiding patsies, and lose to the left. Or become like the left, disrespectful and dishonest and threatening and violent, and have some chance of winning against them.

    I think that it is a mistake to believe that those are our choices. I think we have another choice, one that we have barely begun to exercise, and that is to speak up boldly and clearly and truthfully, even at the risk of causing offense, and then stand our ground.

    That means getting over our natural tendency not to rock the boat, not to stick out, not to too obviously contradict the prevailing narrative.

    That’s the point of the title, and of the post.

    It was always crystal-clear, and quite correct!

    (If anyone’s been thinking I disagreed, please stop: I never disagreed.)

    • #178
  29. Henry Racette Member
    Henry Racette
    @HenryRacette

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    For those who may have found the back-and-forth about language exhausting, let me state simply what my intention was with the title of this post (without getting pulled back into a discussion of whether or not my phraseology was inspired).

    Many people with whom I speak seem to believe that we have two choices: be weak, polite, civil, law-abiding patsies, and lose to the left. Or become like the left, disrespectful and dishonest and threatening and violent, and have some chance of winning against them.

    I think that it is a mistake to believe that those are our choices. I think we have another choice, one that we have barely begun to exercise, and that is to speak up boldly and clearly and truthfully, even at the risk of causing offense, and then stand our ground.

    That means getting over our natural tendency not to rock the boat, not to stick out, not to too obviously contradict the prevailing narrative.

    That’s the point of the title, and of the post.

    It was always crystal-clear, and quite correct!

    (If anyone’s been thinking I disagreed, please stop: I never disagreed.)

    I enjoy you. It’s a pleasure having you here, and I look forward to one day meeting you in person — and, in the meantime, to a long and rewarding online relationship. Be well.

    • #179
  30. Samuel Block Support
    Samuel Block
    @SamuelBlock

    RufusRJones (View Comment):

    Samuel Block (View Comment):
    I’ve ruined my fair share of family dinners without coming close to being a crank.

    “Define assault weapon”. I didn’t say anything else.

    That was my biggest mistake of 2016. My brother-in-law went insane. lol

    Been there, man! In a sense I owe my older brother a lot. I was getting shouted at for saying “I don’t agree” a decade ago. 

    • #180
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