Will Conservatives Fight Each Other for the Next Four Years?

 

I have no idea what will happen over the next month. It’s possible but unlikely that President Trump will be re-elected; it’s also likely that Joe Biden will fill that seat; his winning this election fills me with fear and dread.

But to me, even worse than watching an elderly man who has cognitive problems and misguided ideas become President will be watching the Conservatives at each other’s throats. I foresee those who enthusiastically support Trump holding angry grudges against those who believed that Trump could not overcome the odds or beat back the fraud. And I can imagine those who believed the odds were long will be hated by those who believed that fraud should have been uncovered and Trump should have won.

This outcome is a lose-lose proposition for Conservatives everywhere.

Why do I bring this issue up now? Because in one sense, it doesn’t matter what the results are: we could waste our energy berating each other, blaming the system, and condemning those who were on the opposite side of us.

I’m also raising this issue now because we must focus on the real potential catastrophe: Democrats may very well be in charge of the government at one level or another and their dominance could destroy our country.

Now I will admit that I’m not fond of watching people fight with each other, verbally or otherwise (although I did enjoy the original Karate Kid). But the stakes are too high for us to get sidetracked and fall into Republican reticence of being Mr. Nice Guys or giving up the farm. Instead of fighting with each other over the past, let’s try the following:

  1. Make sure one way or another that a highly credible commission is established to study the results of the election, identify the fraud that occurred, find the mismanagement that was pervasive, and identify solutions. This effort will require identifying which steps should be proposed for the federal government to oversee, and which should be given to the states. If possible, the recommendations should include penalties for breaking or mismanaging the rules. The committee should be bipartisan and should preferably include people who are no longer in government, but have credibility on both sides of the aisle.
  2. Stop crying over spilled milk, no matter who wins. It will have been done. Arguing amongst ourselves is just another kind of distraction and will stall any progress on the part of Republicans. I frankly don’t care if you feel there was massive fraud or if you believe there was fraud, but not enough to make a difference. (I believe the truth is somewhere in the middle.) It’s history. Finished. Done.
  3. Let’s figure out the next steps for the Republicans that go beyond fighting the Democrats or re-litigating the election. We need to revamp totally the principles of Conservatism. We need to give up on old hopes that will be lost for the future, such as small government. We need to figure out how to educate people about US history and its goals in moving forward. We need to determine how to best engage people in America and build enthusiasm for 2024.
  4. We must explore the psychological impact of this election and be honest about its effect on ourselves and the people. Each of us should take a good hard look at ourselves and ask what really motivates our antagonism toward our colleagues. I learned a good lesson that is almost always true when it comes to human motivation. We become angry when two aspects of our psyche are challenged: being right and looking good. That means when someone accuses us of being wrong, we defend ourselves, insisting that we are right. It doesn’t matter whether we are “really” right or not; we must protect ourselves from those who question us. “Looking good” describes those characteristics that we value because we think they make us “look good”; they are what you value about yourself, not necessarily what someone else appreciates about us. That means when a person violates your important beliefs about your looking good—being smart, being right, being ethical, being educated—you will have a strong negative reaction and even fight back. I know intimately the limitations of these reactions!

Once we realize that our reactions to others’ challenging us are based on our irrational fears of being discounted, it’s much easier to disregard what they say about us. For example, some men like to tell me I’m reacting “emotionally” to something. Most women hate to be told that; I love it because I can respond by saying, “You’re right! I am emotional. But I’m also smart and knowledgeable.” That usually stops the attack.

* * * * *

My hope for all of us is that we don’t move into the next four years with a chip on our shoulders. Let’s not attack each other; let’s not spend our time in useless arguments. Instead, let’s transform our anger into passion; our concerns into dedication for America; our frustration into a laser-sharp focus. Let’s work together. Let’s help each other.

Let’s set the example of what it means to be proud Americans.

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  1. lowtech redneck Coolidge
    lowtech redneck
    @lowtech redneck

    CarolJoy, Thread Hijacker (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    DonG (skeptic) (View Comment):

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    I will never forgive, nor accept back Never Trumpers. They cast their lot with Biden. They can be cast out forever. They are the Scorpion.

    I guess I didn’t address your comment, Bryan. If you can’t accept them, then ignore them.

    No Bryan. You must fight them. The NeverTrump fools are taking actions to destroy America and they must be opposed.

    Yes. Incremental compromise is incremental ruin.

    The frog who was slowly boiled past his tolerance would vouch for the idea that “Incremental compromise is incremental ruin,” if he had simply survived such torture.

    The proverbial frog has much to teach us.

    • #91
  2. Hoyacon Member
    Hoyacon
    @Hoyacon

    Dennis A. Garcia (formerly Gai… (View Comment):

     

    I can only hope that the mythical reluctant trumpers, who voted for Trump but don’t believe his lies, are actually out there and will show up in the next two cycles, but I’m not seeing them on Ricochet or among the Trump voters in my life.

    I’d really appreciate it if you would avoid just dropping a “lies” bomb without supporting it.  Hopefully you understand that a “lie” is an intentional misrepresentation of the truth.

     

    • #92
  3. E. Kent Golding Moderator
    E. Kent Golding
    @EKentGolding

    I don’t like Trump.   I voted against him in the 2016 Primaries.  I voted for him in the 2016 & 2020 General Elections.  I have sent e-mails to the Speaker of the Michigan House & the Michigan Senate Majority Leader asking them to select Trump Electors.    I have no idea why anyone would vote for a brain dead Democrat over an imperfect Republican, but that’s just me.

    • #93
  4. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Trump is not going away, nor he should he, given the level of support he has.

    I’m assuming, however, that a combination of Nevers and doctrinaire conservatives will come up with reasonably credible to actually credible primary challengers from the deep bench the Republicans have. No, I’m not talking Ben Sasse.

    It will be interesting to see how much acrimony we see if/when credible challengers arrive for the ’24 nomination. Tom Cotton? Nicky Haley? Tim Scott? There are quite a few wh have “waited their turns.”

    Is Cruz really out?

    • #94
  5. DrewInWisconsin, Man of Constant Sorrow Member
    DrewInWisconsin, Man of Constant Sorrow
    @DrewInWisconsin

    Dennis A. Garcia (formerly Gai… (View Comment):
    I can only hope that the mythical reluctant trumpers, who voted for Trump but don’t believe his lies, are actually out there and will show up in the next two cycles, but I’m not seeing them on Ricochet or among the Trump voters in my life.

    Perhaps the problem is that you treat them with disdain.

    • #95
  6. J Climacus Member
    J Climacus
    @JClimacus

    1 hour and 95 comments. Susan, you know how to generate a conversation!

    • #96
  7. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Maguffin (View Comment):
    enemy who is the enemy of my enemy

    That’s the core of the disagreement.  Trump is the enemy of our enemies and it did no good to a certain few, who apparently said amongst themselves: I like our enemy better; they’re clean and bright, have crisp pant creases and trillions of dollars at their disposal, and their surrogates start such great rhetorical and actual fires.

    • #97
  8. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    I have sometimes called myself “Trump skeptical,” but some people have referred to me as a Never Trumper. I have voted straight Republican tickets for my entire life and continue to do so. But I did not participate in the presidential race in 2016 and 2020 because of my skepticism regarding Trump. I still voted for Republican candidates for US Senate and US House and Governor and state legislature.

    Sometimes when I hear someone complain about Never Trumpers, I initially think they are talking about me. But then I hear the name Bill Kristol or Jennifer Rubin and I realize they aren’t really talking about me.

    However, some Trump supporters really do want everyone to swallow their criticisms of Trump, or at least they did prior to the election, because to criticize Trump was to provide indirect rhetorical support for Biden. I understand that view. It’s just that if I am honest, I will express criticism of even those politicians I might even vote for.

    I do not think you are an NT. I have always found you annoying and often disagree with you, but I have not found you to be either a NT. I do think that you step over the line in your disdain for Trump supporters though.

    I have found that whenever I presented a criticism of Trump, it would be dismissed because it’s just not acceptable to disagree with Trump because, after all, Trump won while Romney and McCain lost.

    Now that Trump has both won and lost, winning in 2016 and losing in 2020, I hope people can be more reflective about what Trump did right and what Trump did wrong, how Trump convinced voters to vote for him and how Trump repelled voters into Joe Biden’s column.

    That would be a productive conversation. I don’t think one has to either argue that everything Trump said and did was horrible or that everything that Trump said and did was awesome.

    Perhaps in about six months or a year that conversation can be had.

    As long as someone has to open the conversation on how bad Trump was, there is no reason to talk to them.  I am not interested in people who open with virtue signsl.

    • #98
  9. Gary Robbins Member
    Gary Robbins
    @GaryRobbins

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    Maguffin (View Comment):
    So, if the NeverTrumpers really meant everything they said about it all being about Trump, I’ll start seeing their fervent attacks against our new overlords. Then we can talk.

    Interesting point, @Maguffin! But if people continue to actively condemn them, they aren’t going to want to join up with us. Especially if they are attacked by Trump supporters. As I said earlier, you don’t have to “forgive” them or welcome them, but you also don’t have to attack them.

    What a thoughtful post and comments! I read all of them, and while I have moments of disagreements, it was remarkable in that I, for one, didn’t feel attacked. Thank you so much.

    Because you are not someone we can trust.

    With all due respect, the invitation came from Susan, not you.  If you would like to fight, then we can fight on your post or my post.  Let’s not fight on Susan’s post, okay?

    • #99
  10. Hoyacon Member
    Hoyacon
    @Hoyacon

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    Maguffin (View Comment):
    So, if the NeverTrumpers really meant everything they said about it all being about Trump, I’ll start seeing their fervent attacks against our new overlords. Then we can talk.

    Interesting point, @Maguffin! But if people continue to actively condemn them, they aren’t going to want to join up with us. Especially if they are attacked by Trump supporters. As I said earlier, you don’t have to “forgive” them or welcome them, but you also don’t have to attack them.

    What a thoughtful post and comments! I read all of them, and while I have moments of disagreements, it was remarkable in that I, for one, didn’t feel attacked. Thank you so much.

    Because you are not someone we can trust.

    With all due respect, the invitation came from Susan, not you. If you would like to fight, then we can fight on your post or my post. Let’s not fight on Susan’s post, okay?

    I’m unclear on your continued attempts to decide what can be discussed in any comment.  My view is that it’s none of your business, Perhaps you’d like to express a contrary perspective,

    • #100
  11. CarolJoy, Thread Hijacker Coolidge
    CarolJoy, Thread Hijacker
    @CarolJoy

    MichaelKennedy (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    I have sometimes called myself “Trump skeptical,” but some people have referred to me as a Never Trumper. I have voted straight Republican tickets for my entire life and continue to do so. But I did not participate in the presidential race in 2016 and 2020 because of my skepticism regarding Trump. I still voted for Republican candidates for US Senate and US House and Governor and state legislature.

    Sometimes when I hear someone complain about Never Trumpers, I initially think they are talking about me. But then I hear the name Bill Kristol or Jennifer Rubin and I realize they aren’t really talking about me.

    However, some Trump supporters really do want everyone to swallow their criticisms of Trump, or at least they did prior to the election, because to criticize Trump was to provide indirect rhetorical support for Biden. I understand that view. It’s just that if I am honest, I will express criticism of even those politicians I might even vote for.

    I do not think you are an NT. I have always found you annoying and often disagree with you, SNIP

    I have found that whenever I presented a criticism of Trump, it would be dismissed because it’s just not acceptable to disagree with Trump because, after all, Trump won while Romney and McCain lost.

    Now that Trump has both won and lost, winning in 2016 and losing in 2020, I hope people can be more reflective about what Trump did right and what Trump did wrong, how Trump convinced voters to vote for him and how Trump repelled voters into Joe Biden’s column.

    That would be a productive conversation.SNIP

    Perhaps in about six months or a year that conversation can be had.

    You need to differentiate between real arguments & straw men. Trump was a new phenomenon in US politics. In a way, he resembled Teddy Roosevelt. Both were public figures but Roosevelt brought us “Progressivism.” On reducing government, Trump had no chance. The entire government was in revolt. Read Lou Smith’s book if you want the details. Trump has an abrasive personality in public. I have read that he is different in private, domineering but not rude. He kept his promises insofar as it was possible. That is unique in US politicians since Eisenhower. Both parties are corrupt.

    Trump knew since 2015 or earlier that both parties are corrupt. That is why he used a team of lawyers to wade thru the regulations of each party regarding their respective protocols for nominating the Presidential candidate before he decided which party he would be part of.

    Although his lawyers did not announce the Republicans were not corrupt, his lawyers did figure out  that he could persevere if he went into the Republican battle knowing how to manage his fight. But as a Democrat, he had zero  chance against the well established machinery of the Clinton Crime Family.

    • #101
  12. Dennis A. Garcia (formerly Gai… Inactive
    Dennis A. Garcia (formerly Gai…
    @Gaius

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Dennis A. Garcia (formerly Gai… (View Comment):

     

    I can only hope that the mythical reluctant trumpers, who voted for Trump but don’t believe his lies, are actually out there and will show up in the next two cycles, but I’m not seeing them on Ricochet or among the Trump voters in my life.

    I’d really appreciate it if you would avoid just dropping a “lies” bomb without supporting it. Hopefully you understand that a “lie” is an intentional misrepresentation of the truth.

     

    Are you saying that Trump hasn’t told any serious lies since emerging as a political figure or do you mean something specific?

    And no, I think if “reckless disregard” is good enough for second degree murder it’s good enough for lies. Except in Trump’s case I’d up it to a malicious disregard for truth. The man clearly has contempt for the very concept and enjoys getting away with statements he has no reason to believe are true.

    • #102
  13. DrewInWisconsin, Man of Constant Sorrow Member
    DrewInWisconsin, Man of Constant Sorrow
    @DrewInWisconsin

    Dennis A. Garcia (formerly Gai… (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Dennis A. Garcia (formerly Gai… (View Comment):

     

    I can only hope that the mythical reluctant trumpers, who voted for Trump but don’t believe his lies, are actually out there and will show up in the next two cycles, but I’m not seeing them on Ricochet or among the Trump voters in my life.

    I’d really appreciate it if you would avoid just dropping a “lies” bomb without supporting it. Hopefully you understand that a “lie” is an intentional misrepresentation of the truth.

    Are you saying that Trump hasn’t told any serious lies since emerging as a political figure or do you mean something specific?

    And no, I think if “reckless disregard” is good enough for second degree murder it’s good enough for lies. Except in Trump’s case I’d up it to a malicious disregard for truth. The man clearly has contempt for the very concept and enjoys getting away with statements he has no reason to believe are true.

    Lists, please.

    • #103
  14. Hoyacon Member
    Hoyacon
    @Hoyacon

    Dennis A. Garcia (formerly Gai… (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Dennis A. Garcia (formerly Gai… (View Comment):

     

    I can only hope that the mythical reluctant trumpers, who voted for Trump but don’t believe his lies, are actually out there and will show up in the next two cycles, but I’m not seeing them on Ricochet or among the Trump voters in my life.

    I’d really appreciate it if you would avoid just dropping a “lies” bomb without supporting it. Hopefully you understand that a “lie” is an intentional misrepresentation of the truth.

     

    Are you saying that Trump hasn’t told any serious lies since emerging as a political figure or do you mean something specific?

    And no, I think if “reckless disregard” is good enough for second degree murder it’s good enough for lies. Except in Trump’s case I’d up it to a malicious disregard for truth. The man clearly has contempt for the very concept and enjoys getting away with statements he has no reason to believe are true.

    Thanks.  I was expecting no answer. Instead I received a completely evasive answer.  Is that better or worse?

     

    • #104
  15. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    Maguffin (View Comment):
    So, if the NeverTrumpers really meant everything they said about it all being about Trump, I’ll start seeing their fervent attacks against our new overlords. Then we can talk.

    Interesting point, @Maguffin! But if people continue to actively condemn them, they aren’t going to want to join up with us. Especially if they are attacked by Trump supporters. As I said earlier, you don’t have to “forgive” them or welcome them, but you also don’t have to attack them.

    What a thoughtful post and comments! I read all of them, and while I have moments of disagreements, it was remarkable in that I, for one, didn’t feel attacked. Thank you so much.

    Because you are not someone we can trust.

    With all due respect, the invitation came from Susan, not you. If you would like to fight, then we can fight on your post or my post. Let’s not fight on Susan’s post, okay?


    Gary Robbins (View Comment)
    :

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    Maguffin (View Comment):
    So, if the NeverTrumpers really meant everything they said about it all being about Trump, I’ll start seeing their fervent attacks against our new overlords. Then we can talk.

    Interesting point, @Maguffin! But if people continue to actively condemn them, they aren’t going to want to join up with us. Especially if they are attacked by Trump supporters. As I said earlier, you don’t have to “forgive” them or welcome them, but you also don’t have to attack them.

    What a thoughtful post and comments! I read all of them, and while I have moments of disagreements, it was remarkable in that I, for one, didn’t feel attacked. Thank you so much.

    Because you are not someone we can trust.

    With all due respect, the invitation came from Susan, not you. If you would like to fight, then we can fight on your post or my post. Let’s not fight on Susan’s 

    No. You chime in, I am going to tell you what I think of you again.

    • #105
  16. Dennis A. Garcia (formerly Gai… Inactive
    Dennis A. Garcia (formerly Gai…
    @Gaius

    DrewInWisconsin, Man of Consta… (View Comment):

    Dennis A. Garcia (formerly Gai… (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Dennis A. Garcia (formerly Gai… (View Comment):

     

    I can only hope that the mythical reluctant trumpers, who voted for Trump but don’t believe his lies, are actually out there and will show up in the next two cycles, but I’m not seeing them on Ricochet or among the Trump voters in my life.

    I’d really appreciate it if you would avoid just dropping a “lies” bomb without supporting it. Hopefully you understand that a “lie” is an intentional misrepresentation of the truth.

    Are you saying that Trump hasn’t told any serious lies since emerging as a political figure or do you mean something specific?

    And no, I think if “reckless disregard” is good enough for second degree murder it’s good enough for lies. Except in Trump’s case I’d up it to a malicious disregard for truth. The man clearly has contempt for the very concept and enjoys getting away with statements he has no reason to believe are true.

    Lists, please.

    This rhetorical trick has become such crutch, it’s hilarious.

    “Return tomorrow with an exhaustive report justifying your unfounded assertion that the sky is blue. Meanwhile, I shall continue to dunk on you with my own assertions for which I have no evidence.”

    This is a conversation site. If people disbelieve or claim to disbelieve the patently obvious, that’s not my problem.

    • #106
  17. DrewInWisconsin, Man of Constant Sorrow Member
    DrewInWisconsin, Man of Constant Sorrow
    @DrewInWisconsin

    Dennis A. Garcia (formerly Gai… (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Man of Consta… (View Comment):

    Dennis A. Garcia (formerly Gai… (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Dennis A. Garcia (formerly Gai… (View Comment):

    I can only hope that the mythical reluctant trumpers, who voted for Trump but don’t believe his lies, are actually out there and will show up in the next two cycles, but I’m not seeing them on Ricochet or among the Trump voters in my life.

    I’d really appreciate it if you would avoid just dropping a “lies” bomb without supporting it. Hopefully you understand that a “lie” is an intentional misrepresentation of the truth.

    Are you saying that Trump hasn’t told any serious lies since emerging as a political figure or do you mean something specific?

    And no, I think if “reckless disregard” is good enough for second degree murder it’s good enough for lies. Except in Trump’s case I’d up it to a malicious disregard for truth. The man clearly has contempt for the very concept and enjoys getting away with statements he has no reason to believe are true.

    Lists, please.

    This rhetorical trick has become such crutch, it’s hilarious.

    The rhetorical trick is to pound the table and insist that the President is a serial liar without ever providing a lick of evidence. With behavior like that, you could have your own podcast!

    This is a conversation site. If people disbelieve or claim to disbelieve the patently obvious, that’s not my problem.

    I take this as an admission that you got nothing.

    • #107
  18. HeavyWater Inactive
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

    DrewInWisconsin, Man of Consta… (View Comment):

    Dennis A. Garcia (formerly Gai… (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Dennis A. Garcia (formerly Gai… (View Comment):

     

    I can only hope that the mythical reluctant trumpers, who voted for Trump but don’t believe his lies, are actually out there and will show up in the next two cycles, but I’m not seeing them on Ricochet or among the Trump voters in my life.

    I’d really appreciate it if you would avoid just dropping a “lies” bomb without supporting it. Hopefully you understand that a “lie” is an intentional misrepresentation of the truth.

    Are you saying that Trump hasn’t told any serious lies since emerging as a political figure or do you mean something specific?

    And no, I think if “reckless disregard” is good enough for second degree murder it’s good enough for lies. Except in Trump’s case I’d up it to a malicious disregard for truth. The man clearly has contempt for the very concept and enjoys getting away with statements he has no reason to believe are true.

    Lists, please.

    I call threadjack.

    • #108
  19. HeavyWater Inactive
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

    Dennis A. Garcia (formerly Gai… (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    I’d really appreciate it if you would avoid just dropping a “lies” bomb without supporting it. Hopefully you understand that a “lie” is an intentional misrepresentation of the truth.

    Are you saying that Trump hasn’t told any serious lies since emerging as a political figure or do you mean something specific?

    And no, I think if “reckless disregard” is good enough for second degree murder it’s good enough for lies. Except in Trump’s case I’d up it to a malicious disregard for truth. The man clearly has contempt for the very concept and enjoys getting away with statements he has no reason to believe are true.

    I don’t understand why there needs to be such an intense debate about Trump’s character.  

    We all know that Trump bragged about sleeping with women who were married to other men.  We know that Trump talks about National Enquirer stories of Ted Cruz’s father being involved in the assassination of President John F. Kennedy and stories about Joe Scarborough having one of his congressional aides killed.  

    Now, can one make a case that despite Donald Trump’s moral imperfections, one should vote for Trump anyway?  Sure.  That case has been articulately made here on Ricochet and elsewhere.  

    Go ahead and mention Trump’s US Supreme Court nominees, tax cuts, deregulation and so on.

    But don’t blow smoke in our faces and say, “Trump doesn’t lie.”  

    Let’s have an honest conversation.  We don’t have to tip toe around these issues.  We can admit the good, the bad and the repulsive regarding Trump.

    • #109
  20. aardo vozz Member
    aardo vozz
    @aardovozz

    Stad (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    I will never forgive, nor accept back Never Trumpers. They cast their lot with Biden. They can be cast out forever. They are the Scorpion.

     

     

    How does that song go?

    “God may forgive you, but I won’t.

    Jesus may love you, but I don’t.”

    Then there’s this great line from “The Ballad of Cable Hogue”( starring Jason Robards)

    Priest( warning Hogue that revenge is wrong): “ Vengeance is Mine, sayeth the Lord”

    Hogue: “Fine with me, as long as He doesn’t take too long, and I get to watch!”

    • #110
  21. Clifford A. Brown Member
    Clifford A. Brown
    @CliffordBrown

    SkipSul (View Comment):

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    SkipSul (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Man of Consta… (View Comment):

    Nah, conservatives won’t fight conservatives. Conservatives will fight the fake conservatives in their midst.

    The one true Scotsman!

    Everyone seems to think that they themselves are the real conservative, and all the rest are fakes and dupes.

    I don’t consider myself a real conservative, and prefer to be called a fake and dupe!

    I think in most cases titles are meaningless; it’s just another place to get stuck in the discussion. I’d rather talk about things that are meaningful and true for me (even if they’re not true for you).

    I have come to the point where the term “conservative” has been drained dry of any real meaning, it’s just something to be fought over, or, if you’d like, an indication of general direction, like “south”, but one that really needs the other points of the compass to make any sense (due south? south by south-southwest? west by south?, etc.). In short, it’s a term I try to avoid using now.

    How about we test for substance, for policy results? If your supposed policy, peddled every two years to get those other voters to show up for your guy, is actually being implimented, and you are in a huff, whatever you used to use as a public/fundraising conservative metric is falsified and you are not, by the definition you used just 5 years ago, a conservative.

    • #111
  22. MichaelKennedy Inactive
    MichaelKennedy
    @MichaelKennedy

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Dennis A. Garcia (formerly Gai… (View Comment):

     

    I can only hope that the mythical reluctant trumpers, who voted for Trump but don’t believe his lies, are actually out there and will show up in the next two cycles, but I’m not seeing them on Ricochet or among the Trump voters in my life.

    I’d really appreciate it if you would avoid just dropping a “lies” bomb without supporting it. Hopefully you understand that a “lie” is an intentional misrepresentation of the truth.

     

    This is universal on the left, and I assume from the NTs.  I can never get them to describe one “lie.”

    • #112
  23. MichaelKennedy Inactive
    MichaelKennedy
    @MichaelKennedy

    Dennis A. Garcia (formerly Gai… (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Dennis A. Garcia (formerly Gai… (View Comment):

    I can only hope that the mythical reluctant trumpers, who voted for Trump but don’t believe his lies, are actually out there and will show up in the next two cycles, but I’m not seeing them on Ricochet or among the Trump voters in my life.

    I’d really appreciate it if you would avoid just dropping a “lies” bomb without supporting it. Hopefully you understand that a “lie” is an intentional misrepresentation of the truth.

    Are you saying that Trump hasn’t told any serious lies since emerging as a political figure or do you mean something specific?

    And no, I think if “reckless disregard” is good enough for second degree murder it’s good enough for lies. Except in Trump’s case I’d up it to a malicious disregard for truth. The man clearly has contempt for the very concept and enjoys getting away with statements he has no reason to believe are true.

    Your NeverTrumper credentials are current, I see.

    • #113
  24. MichaelKennedy Inactive
    MichaelKennedy
    @MichaelKennedy

    Dennis A. Garcia (formerly Gai… (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Man of Consta… (View Comment):

    Dennis A. Garcia (formerly Gai… (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Dennis A. Garcia (formerly Gai… (View Comment):

     

    I can only hope that the mythical reluctant trumpers, who voted for Trump but don’t believe his lies, are actually out there and will show up in the next two cycles, but I’m not seeing them on Ricochet or among the Trump voters in my life.

    I’d really appreciate it if you would avoid just dropping a “lies” bomb without supporting it. Hopefully you understand that a “lie” is an intentional misrepresentation of the truth.

    Are you saying that Trump hasn’t told any serious lies since emerging as a political figure or do you mean something specific?

    And no, I think if “reckless disregard” is good enough for second degree murder it’s good enough for lies. Except in Trump’s case I’d up it to a malicious disregard for truth. The man clearly has contempt for the very concept and enjoys getting away with statements he has no reason to believe are true.

    Lists, please.

    This rhetorical trick has become such crutch, it’s hilarious.

    “Return tomorrow with an exhaustive report justifying your unfounded assertion that the sky is blue. Meanwhile, I shall continue to dunk on you with my own assertions for which I have no evidence.”

    This is a conversation site. If people disbelieve or claim to disbelieve the patently obvious, that’s not my problem.

    Speaking of lies.

    • #114
  25. DrewInWisconsin, Man of Constant Sorrow Member
    DrewInWisconsin, Man of Constant Sorrow
    @DrewInWisconsin

    HeavyWater (View Comment):
    I don’t understand why there needs to be such an intense debate about Trump’s character.

    It’s okay with me if you stop.

    • #115
  26. MichaelKennedy Inactive
    MichaelKennedy
    @MichaelKennedy

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Dennis A. Garcia (formerly Gai… (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    I’d really appreciate it if you would avoid just dropping a “lies” bomb without supporting it. Hopefully you understand that a “lie” is an intentional misrepresentation of the truth.

    Are you saying that Trump hasn’t told any serious lies since emerging as a political figure or do you mean something specific?

    And no, I think if “reckless disregard” is good enough for second degree murder it’s good enough for lies. Except in Trump’s case I’d up it to a malicious disregard for truth. The man clearly has contempt for the very concept and enjoys getting away with statements he has no reason to believe are true.

    I don’t understand why there needs to be such an intense debate about Trump’s character.

    We all know that Trump bragged about sleeping with women who were married to other men. We know that Trump talks about National Enquirer stories of Ted Cruz’s father being involved in the assassination of President John F. Kennedy and stories about Joe Scarborough having one of his congressional aides killed.

    Now, can one make a case that despite Donald Trump’s moral imperfections, one should vote for Trump anyway? Sure. That case has been articulately made here on Ricochet and elsewhere.

    Go ahead and mention Trump’s US Supreme Court nominees, tax cuts, deregulation and so on.

    But don’t blow smoke in our faces and say, “Trump doesn’t lie.”

    Let’s have an honest conversation. We don’t have to tip toe around these issues. We can admit the good, the bad and the repulsive regarding Trump.

    I assume you have evidence for your accusations besides “everybody knows it.”  Lots of people suspected the Congressman from CA.  I have never heard of an accusation about Scarborough.  He and Trump were friends until 2016.

    • #116
  27. HeavyWater Inactive
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

    DrewInWisconsin, Man of Consta… (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):
    I don’t understand why there needs to be such an intense debate about Trump’s character.

    It’s okay with me if you stop.

    No.  I mean we should all be able to agree that Trump is a liar and generally a bad person.  We can say, “He’s an bad guy, but he’s our bad guy.”  

    It just seems like many Trump supporters aren’t willing to admit the obvious.  

    • #117
  28. HeavyWater Inactive
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

    MichaelKennedy (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Dennis A. Garcia (formerly Gai… (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    I’d really appreciate it if you would avoid just dropping a “lies” bomb without supporting it. Hopefully you understand that a “lie” is an intentional misrepresentation of the truth.

    Are you saying that Trump hasn’t told any serious lies since emerging as a political figure or do you mean something specific?

    And no, I think if “reckless disregard” is good enough for second degree murder it’s good enough for lies. Except in Trump’s case I’d up it to a malicious disregard for truth. The man clearly has contempt for the very concept and enjoys getting away with statements he has no reason to believe are true.

    I don’t understand why there needs to be such an intense debate about Trump’s character.

    We all know that Trump bragged about sleeping with women who were married to other men. We know that Trump talks about National Enquirer stories of Ted Cruz’s father being involved in the assassination of President John F. Kennedy and stories about Joe Scarborough having one of his congressional aides killed.

    Now, can one make a case that despite Donald Trump’s moral imperfections, one should vote for Trump anyway? Sure. That case has been articulately made here on Ricochet and elsewhere.

    Go ahead and mention Trump’s US Supreme Court nominees, tax cuts, deregulation and so on.

    But don’t blow smoke in our faces and say, “Trump doesn’t lie.”

    Let’s have an honest conversation. We don’t have to tip toe around these issues. We can admit the good, the bad and the repulsive regarding Trump.

    I assume you have evidence for your accusations besides “everybody knows it.” Lots of people suspected the Congressman from CA. I have never heard of an accusation about Scarborough. He and Trump were friends until 2016.

    https://www.tampabay.com/florida-politics/buzz/2020/05/26/politifact-donald-trump-spreads-baseless-claim-that-msnbc-host-murdered-a-staff-member-in-2001/

    • #118
  29. Clifford A. Brown Member
    Clifford A. Brown
    @CliffordBrown

    has

    Jager (View Comment):

    SkipSul (View Comment):

    Stad (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    I will never forgive, nor accept back Never Trumpers. They cast their lot with Biden. They can be cast out forever. They are the Scorpion.

     

     

    How does that song go?

    “God may forgive you, but I won’t.

    Jesus may love you, but I don’t.”

    It may be a catchy song, but it is unwise advice.

    Maybe,but it will be tough. I am, in the future, supposed to unite with and forgive the people who called me a “cultist” and implied I was a racist because I was willing to vote for Trump and not join them in trashing everything?

    Common ground will be a bit harder to find, it might be best if common ground could be found, but I think this one might take a bit of time.

    Yes, it is not always best if “common ground” is elevated, especially when it is always. Always. Peddled by leftists and GOPe to mean shut up and do not dispute our “win.”

    In Lou Reed’s words, “there’s no ground common enough for me and you.” By the way, this is the winning strategy of Nancy Pelosi, who purged the “Blue Dog” Democrats that Reagan once could rely on to undercut the Democrat Speaker of the House. 

    • #119
  30. MichaelKennedy Inactive
    MichaelKennedy
    @MichaelKennedy

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Man of Consta… (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):
    I don’t understand why there needs to be such an intense debate about Trump’s character.

    It’s okay with me if you stop.

    No. I mean we should all be able to agree that Trump is a liar and generally a bad person. We can say, “He’s an bad guy, but he’s our bad guy.”

    It just seems like many Trump supporters aren’t willing to admit the obvious.

    Whodathunk that Trump voters would agree with an NT who posts no evidence except “Everybody agrees?”

    • #120
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