If I Were the King of Grammar…

 

What a great topic for this month’s group writing. The first thing I thought to write on was, “If I were a rich man…” Unfortunately, my wife told me it had already been done.

 

I had to think of something else. I have general handyman skills, but I’ve never done fine carpentry work. I would love to have those sorts of skills. “If I were a carpenter…” And then my wife said that had also been done before.

 

Well, then I thought, I’ve always wanted to dance. But…

Well, it seems like there are a whole lot of people out there writing songs in the subjunctive mood. Now, of course, everyone on Ricochet knows about the subjunctive mood, as well as the English language’s other moods: indicative, interrogative, imperative, injunctive, optative, and potential.

I have a confession to make: I never learned about moods in an English grammar class. When I was going to school, it seems like we never finished getting through the textbooks. Maybe my peers were just more disruptive than most, and it meant we went through the information more slowly than planned. Or maybe the plan was bad and no class was getting through the whole thing. Of course, it wasn’t just grammar books that were never finished. I never had a history class that got to or past World War II. And I’m not that old. Before the first day I had darkened the door of a school building, we had had more than twenty years of history since WWII. Well, it wasn’t like I was going to read the rest of the school books in my spare time over the summer, either. I had too much to do over the summer. I was a kid. I had to whine about being bored. Do you know how much time that takes? You don’t have enough time to do that if you’re reading a grammar book.

No, the first time I heard of the subjunctive mood, it wasn’t spelled that way. It was «le subjonctif». I learned about moods in high school French class. It left me wondering what else I didn’t know about English grammar. How come nobody had ever told me about this stuff before? It really put me into a mood that was more grumpy than subjunctive. There I was, Wile E. Coyote, Super-Genius High-School Student, and I had never heard of grammar moods before. I do declare!

If I were Grammar King, I would ensure everyone knew all the beautiful grammar things we have in our languages. Languages are complex emergent creations. Nobody sat down one day and said, “Dudes, what we really need is a subjunctive mood in our grammar.” No, it emerged out of the practice of peoples’ trying to communicate long ago. And this is a tool in the toolbox of our language. We have subtle ways of indicating moods through word choices. I would have everyone know such facets of the beautiful gem that is our grammar.

How about you, my Ricochet friends? Was there anything in school that you seemed to miss learning when you should have? Perhaps something you stumbled across later?

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  1. Susan in Seattle Member
    Susan in Seattle
    @SusaninSeattle

    Jason Rudert (View Comment):

    Is there a word for this? You learn another language and find that it has things that you always wished your language had?

    Yes, like ‘schadenfreude’  ‘sehnsucht,’ and ‘lagom’  (that last one should have an umlaut over the ‘o’).

    • #61
  2. CarolJoy, Thread Hijacker Coolidge
    CarolJoy, Thread Hijacker
    @CarolJoy

    KentForrester (View Comment):

    Bartholomew Xerxes Ogilvie, Jr. (View Comment):

    My pet peeve during recent years has been the decline, and near-disappearance, of the pluperfect subjunctive, the form of the subjunctive used to refer counterfactually to past events: “I wish you had told me.”

    Bart, that’s the tiniest pet peeve I’ve ever run across.

    So Kent, are you stating “I wish you had not told me”?? or “I wish you would not  have told me” about Bartholomew’s pet peeve?

    • #62
  3. Bartholomew Xerxes Ogilvie, Jr. Coolidge
    Bartholomew Xerxes Ogilvie, Jr.
    @BartholomewXerxesOgilvieJr

    Hank Rhody, Badgeless Bandito (View Comment):

    You lost that war the moment you named it pluperfect subjunctive.

    Hey, I didn’t name it. I didn’t even know what it was called (I had to look it up). But I know how to use it. 

    • #63
  4. SParker Member
    SParker
    @SParker

    Bartholomew Xerxes Ogilvie, Jr. (View Comment):
    This battle is probably lost, and the language will be weaker as a result.

    I expect not.  Syntax changes slowly, but it does change.  You have to figure that it changes because people have found a different way of expressing a function or can get along without it.  “If I was” is equivalent to “were I” for saying “I’m not.”  As is Vin Scully subjunctive:  “that ball’s hit a little harder, this game’s over and I’m sitting in my lounger at home, shoes off, eating a sandwich made from Farmer John ham.”  For some reason we all understand this construction.  

    The genitive case in German is an example of having more grammar than you have any use for.  That way of indicating possessives was going out of the language when 18th grammarians decreed it should stay.  Consequently it’s used only in writing.

    I suppose Newspeak would be a different critter, but then, that’s the whole point of Newspeak.  “The limits of my language mean the limits of my world,” as Wittgenstein said (Die Grenzen meiner Sprache bedeuten die Grenzen meiner Welt).  I suppose also that Idiocracy could have it right.  Every day that passes suggests that, but I’ll keep faith that we’re not really getting stupider.

    • #64
  5. KentForrester Inactive
    KentForrester
    @KentForrester

    CarolJoy, Thread Hijacker (View Comment):

    KentForrester (View Comment):

    Bartholomew Xerxes Ogilvie, Jr. (View Comment):

    My pet peeve during recent years has been the decline, and near-disappearance, of the pluperfect subjunctive, the form of the subjunctive used to refer counterfactually to past events: “I wish you had told me.”

    Bart, that’s the tiniest pet peeve I’ve ever run across.

    So Kent, are you stating “I wish you had not told me”?? or “I wish you would not have told me” about Bartholomew’s pet peeve?

    CarolJoy, I didn’t know I was going to have to take a pop quiz. I would have studied harder.

    • #65
  6. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Arahant (View Comment):

    GLDIII Temporarily Essential (View Comment):

    Grammar?

    Never heard of it, eh?

    Some kind of Republican actor, isn’t he?

    You’re thinking of Kelso from That ’70s Show.

    • #66
  7. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    KentForrester (View Comment):

    Bartholomew Xerxes Ogilvie, Jr. (View Comment):

    My pet peeve during recent years has been the decline, and near-disappearance, of the pluperfect subjunctive, the form of the subjunctive used to refer counterfactually to past events: “I wish you had told me.”

    Bart, that’s the tiniest pet peeve I’ve ever run across.

    But it roars like a lion.

    • #67
  8. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    colleenb (View Comment):

    KentForrester (View Comment):

    Bartholomew Xerxes Ogilvie, Jr. (View Comment):

    My pet peeve during recent years has been the decline, and near-disappearance, of the pluperfect subjunctive, the form of the subjunctive used to refer counterfactually to past events: “I wish you had told me.”

    Bart, that’s the tiniest pet peeve I’ve ever run across.

    Heh @kentforrester I can probably come up with some very tiny pet peeves myself. Start with prone and supine.

    Pronation.com would make a good web site.

    • #68
  9. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Old Bathos (View Comment):

    I don’t like the words “easterly” and “westerly” or the phrase “the wind is in the east”. If a car moved “leftly” would that mean it moved to its the left or that it is coming out of a left turn? I always hesitate and I still have to think about the word. Makes me feel dumb that this is always an issue and reminds me of the scene in Big Trouble (2002) where the criminals can’t decide whether they should go to Arrivals or Departures because they are arriving at the airport but they do want to depart once they get there…

    It would be leaving a left turn, I think.

    • #69
  10. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    J. D. Fitzpatrick (View Comment):
    It’s Reagan’s fault. Still. Somehow. 

    Actually, I hate to say it but the ungrammatical use of periods bothers me a bit — every time.

    • #70
  11. Bartholomew Xerxes Ogilvie, Jr. Coolidge
    Bartholomew Xerxes Ogilvie, Jr.
    @BartholomewXerxesOgilvieJr

    SParker (View Comment):

    Bartholomew Xerxes Ogilvie, Jr. (View Comment):
    This battle is probably lost, and the language will be weaker as a result.

    I expect not. Syntax changes slowly, but it does change. You have to figure that it changes because people have found a different way of expressing a function or can get along without it.

    Sure, syntax changes, and I know that a language is an organic, evolving thing. But this is a case where a useful distinction is being lost. “If I had done it” and “if I would have done it” mean two different things, and if that distinction blurs, you have lost precision. Language is a tool, arguably the single most important tool we humans have ever invented, and when a tool loses its edge it becomes less useful.

    • #71
  12. Old Bathos Member
    Old Bathos
    @OldBathos

    Bartholomew Xerxes Ogilvie, Jr. (View Comment):

    SParker (View Comment):

    Bartholomew Xerxes Ogilvie, Jr. (View Comment):
    This battle is probably lost, and the language will be weaker as a result.

    I expect not. Syntax changes slowly, but it does change. You have to figure that it changes because people have found a different way of expressing a function or can get along without it.

    Sure, syntax changes, and I know that a language is an organic, evolving thing. But this is a case where a useful distinction is being lost. “If I had done it” and “if I would have done it” mean two different things, and if that distinction blurs, you have lost precision. Language is a tool, arguably the single most important tool we humans have ever invented, and when a tool loses its edge it becomes less useful.

    Some words are gooder when you’re trying to communicate and sh*t but it seems kinda fascist to tax sin because like who is to say what is a sin. So the whole sin tax thing seems totally bogus. 

    • #72
  13. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Old Bathos (View Comment):

    Bartholomew Xerxes Ogilvie, Jr. (View Comment):

    SParker (View Comment):

    Bartholomew Xerxes Ogilvie, Jr. (View Comment):
    This battle is probably lost, and the language will be weaker as a result.

    I expect not. Syntax changes slowly, but it does change. You have to figure that it changes because people have found a different way of expressing a function or can get along without it.

    Sure, syntax changes, and I know that a language is an organic, evolving thing. But this is a case where a useful distinction is being lost. “If I had done it” and “if I would have done it” mean two different things, and if that distinction blurs, you have lost precision. Language is a tool, arguably the single most important tool we humans have ever invented, and when a tool loses its edge it becomes less useful.

    Some words are gooder when you’re trying to communicate and sh*t but it seems kinda fascist to tax sin because like who is to say what is a sin. So the whole sin tax thing seems totally bogus.

    F’sure.  Amirite?

    • #73
  14. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Bartholomew Xerxes Ogilvie, Jr. (View Comment):
    “If I had done it” and “if I would have done it” mean two different things

    And what’s up with these English folks?  They say “I should like to go into town” instead of “I would like to go into town.”  Whenever I read this, I get confused and my buzz is harshed.  Which is correct?

    • #74
  15. TreeRat Inactive
    TreeRat
    @RichardFinlay

    @arahant

    As an aspiring grammar king, how do you feel about the theme for the month being “If I was….”

    • #75
  16. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    TreeRat (View Comment):

    @arahant

    As an aspiring grammar king, how do you feel about the theme for the month being “If I was….”

    That means you possibly actually were.

    • #76
  17. Arahant Member
    Arahant
    @Arahant

    TreeRat (View Comment):
    As an aspiring grammar king, how do you feel about the theme for the month being “If I was….”

    Umass Triggered GIF - Umass Triggered Crying GIFs | Say ...

    • #77
  18. Arahant Member
    Arahant
    @Arahant

    TreeRat (View Comment):
    As an aspiring grammar king, how do you feel about the theme for the month being “If I was….”

    You will note that it is not the way I titled the article.

    • #78
  19. Miffed White Male Member
    Miffed White Male
    @MiffedWhiteMale

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    Jason Rudert (View Comment):

    I graduated HS in ’93 and we didn’t get past WWII either. There was stuff in the book about Korea and Vietnam, but were we to have covered that at the same pace, it would have taken us all summer. Anybody else have the same experience?

    I’m pretty sure American History ended with Teddy Roosevelt getting shot while giving a speech running as the Bullmoose party candidate.

    Teddy Roosevelt was shot????

    I were public edumicated in the 70’s. I didn’t learn much of anything until I got out of high school. I’d say “graduated from” but that would give too much credibility to the “education” system at the time.

    in  Milwaukee.  Then proceeded to go into the hotel and deliver his speech before he went to the hospital.  

    TR was a bad-ass  

     

    • #79
  20. Miffed White Male Member
    Miffed White Male
    @MiffedWhiteMale

    KirkianWanderer (View Comment):

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    Jason Rudert (View Comment):

    I graduated HS in ’93 and we didn’t get past WWII either. There was stuff in the book about Korea and Vietnam, but were we to have covered that at the same pace, it would have taken us all summer. Anybody else have the same experience?

    I’m pretty sure American History ended with Teddy Roosevelt getting shot while giving a speech running as the Bullmoose party candidate.

    I took AP, so we had to get to the end, but there were significant gaps. I’m pretty sure Ronald Reagan became president right after JFK, and William Jennings Bryant was the most important figure in American history.

    Growing up in Wisconsin we heard a lot about fighting bob Lafollete

    • #80
  21. Arahant Member
    Arahant
    @Arahant

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):
    Growing up in Wisconsin we heard a lot about fighting bob Lafollete

    We heard far too much of him next door, too.

    • #81
  22. TreeRat Inactive
    TreeRat
    @RichardFinlay

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):

    KirkianWanderer (View Comment):

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    Jason Rudert (View Comment):

    I graduated HS in ’93 and we didn’t get past WWII either. There was stuff in the book about Korea and Vietnam, but were we to have covered that at the same pace, it would have taken us all summer. Anybody else have the same experience?

    I’m pretty sure American History ended with Teddy Roosevelt getting shot while giving a speech running as the Bullmoose party candidate.

    I took AP, so we had to get to the end, but there were significant gaps. I’m pretty sure Ronald Reagan became president right after JFK, and William Jennings Bryant was the most important figure in American history.

    Growing up in Wisconsin we heard a lot about fighting bob Lafollete

    I always wondered who were all those people who were fighting Bob LaFollete.

    • #82
  23. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    TreeRat (View Comment):

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):

    KirkianWanderer (View Comment):

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    Jason Rudert (View Comment):

    I graduated HS in ’93 and we didn’t get past WWII either. There was stuff in the book about Korea and Vietnam, but were we to have covered that at the same pace, it would have taken us all summer. Anybody else have the same experience?

    I’m pretty sure American History ended with Teddy Roosevelt getting shot while giving a speech running as the Bullmoose party candidate.

    I took AP, so we had to get to the end, but there were significant gaps. I’m pretty sure Ronald Reagan became president right after JFK, and William Jennings Bryant was the most important figure in American history.

    Growing up in Wisconsin we heard a lot about fighting bob Lafollete

    I always wondered who were all those people who were fighting Bob LaFollete.

    Americans.

    • #83
  24. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    Jason Rudert (View Comment):

    I graduated HS in ’93 and we didn’t get past WWII either. There was stuff in the book about Korea and Vietnam, but were we to have covered that at the same pace, it would have taken us all summer. Anybody else have the same experience?

    I’m pretty sure American History ended with Teddy Roosevelt getting shot while giving a speech running as the Bullmoose party candidate.

    Teddy Roosevelt was shot????

    I were public edumicated in the 70’s. I didn’t learn much of anything until I got out of high school. I’d say “graduated from” but that would give too much credibility to the “education” system at the time.

    in Milwaukee. Then proceeded to go into the hotel and deliver his speech before he went to the hospital.

    TR was a bad-ass

     

    The beginning of that speech:

    Friends, I shall ask you to be as quiet as possible. I don’t know whether you fully understand that I have just been shot; but it takes more than that to kill a Bull Moose.

     

    • #84
  25. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    TreeRat (View Comment):
    LaFollete

    follette adj. scatterbrained
    • #85
  26. Samuel Block Member
    Samuel Block
    @SamuelBlock

    Arahant:

    Now, of course, everyone on Ricochet knows about the subjunctive mood, as well as the English language’s other moods: indicative, interrogative, imperative, injunctive, optative, and potential.

    Technically, I suppose. Not in the sense you mean. I almost got held back in the second grade. 

    How about you, my Ricochet friends? Was there anything in school that you seemed to miss learning when you should have? Perhaps something you stumbled across later?

    I’d say 90% of what I can articulate are things I’ve learned in the last five years. The other things I know would require reference books. I’ve been telling myself for years that I should look at them. 

    • #86
  27. KirkianWanderer Inactive
    KirkianWanderer
    @KirkianWanderer

    Percival (View Comment):

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    Jason Rudert (View Comment):

    I graduated HS in ’93 and we didn’t get past WWII either. There was stuff in the book about Korea and Vietnam, but were we to have covered that at the same pace, it would have taken us all summer. Anybody else have the same experience?

    I’m pretty sure American History ended with Teddy Roosevelt getting shot while giving a speech running as the Bullmoose party candidate.

    Teddy Roosevelt was shot????

    I were public edumicated in the 70’s. I didn’t learn much of anything until I got out of high school. I’d say “graduated from” but that would give too much credibility to the “education” system at the time.

    in Milwaukee. Then proceeded to go into the hotel and deliver his speech before he went to the hospital.

    TR was a bad-ass

     

    The beginning of that speech:

    Friends, I shall ask you to be as quiet as possible. I don’t know whether you fully understand that I have just been shot; but it takes more than that to kill a Bull Moose.

     

    I think it’s referenced here (warning for language): 

    • #87
  28. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    KirkianWanderer (View Comment):

    Percival (View Comment):

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    Jason Rudert (View Comment):

    I graduated HS in ’93 and we didn’t get past WWII either. There was stuff in the book about Korea and Vietnam, but were we to have covered that at the same pace, it would have taken us all summer. Anybody else have the same experience?

    I’m pretty sure American History ended with Teddy Roosevelt getting shot while giving a speech running as the Bullmoose party candidate.

    Teddy Roosevelt was shot????

    I were public edumicated in the 70’s. I didn’t learn much of anything until I got out of high school. I’d say “graduated from” but that would give too much credibility to the “education” system at the time.

    in Milwaukee. Then proceeded to go into the hotel and deliver his speech before he went to the hospital.

    TR was a bad-ass

     

    The beginning of that speech:

    Friends, I shall ask you to be as quiet as possible. I don’t know whether you fully understand that I have just been shot; but it takes more than that to kill a Bull Moose.

     

    I think it’s referenced here (warning for language):

    Oh, how I hate rap.

    Yeah, that was what Winston was referring to.

    I hope those musicians got 3x scale. That was rancid.

    • #88
  29. Samuel Block Member
    Samuel Block
    @SamuelBlock

    Percival (View Comment):

    KirkianWanderer (View Comment):

    Percival (View Comment):

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    Jason Rudert (View Comment):

    I graduated HS in ’93 and we didn’t get past WWII either. There was stuff in the book about Korea and Vietnam, but were we to have covered that at the same pace, it would have taken us all summer. Anybody else have the same experience?

    I’m pretty sure American History ended with Teddy Roosevelt getting shot while giving a speech running as the Bullmoose party candidate.

    Teddy Roosevelt was shot????

    I were public edumicated in the 70’s. I didn’t learn much of anything until I got out of high school. I’d say “graduated from” but that would give too much credibility to the “education” system at the time.

    in Milwaukee. Then proceeded to go into the hotel and deliver his speech before he went to the hospital.

    TR was a bad-ass

     

    The beginning of that speech:

    Friends, I shall ask you to be as quiet as possible. I don’t know whether you fully understand that I have just been shot; but it takes more than that to kill a Bull Moose.

     

    I think it’s referenced here (warning for language):

    Oh, how I hate rap.

    Whicka-What?

    • #89
  30. Arahant Member
    Arahant
    @Arahant

    Samuel Block (View Comment):

    Arahant:

    Now, of course, everyone on Ricochet knows about the subjunctive mood, as well as the English language’s other moods: indicative, interrogative, imperative, injunctive, optative, and potential.

    Technically, I suppose. Not in the sense you mean. I almost got held back in the second grade.

    It’s a rhetorical trick, Sam’l. Say nice things about the audience. 😉

    Samuel Block (View Comment):

    How about you, my Ricochet friends? Was there anything in school that you seemed to miss learning when you should have? Perhaps something you stumbled across later?

    I’d say 90% of what I can articulate are things I’ve learned in the last five years. The other things I know would require reference books. I’ve been telling myself for years that I should look at them.

    Even looking things up on Wikipedia is better than nothing in most cases.

    • #90
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