Prelates and Pederasts

 

Sixteen years ago, reporters at The Boston Globe conducted an extensive investigation of the sexual abuse of minors by priests in the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Boston. Not long thereafter, reporters elsewhere detailed similar abuse in places like Los Angeles, Chicago, New Orleans, Philadelphia, and the like. The word used in the press to describe what had been going on was pedophilia, which is a misnomer deliberately employed to cover up what journalists then considered and still consider now an inconvenient aspect of the truth.

As a report commissioned by the National Review Board of the American Catholic bishops and issued in 2004 revealed, something like 81 percent of the victims were boys, and very few of them were, in the strictest sense, children. They were nearly all what we euphemistically call young adults. They were male adolescents on the younger side – at the age when boys as they mature can briefly be downright pretty.

What was involved was what its advocates call man-boy love: a sexual relationship between a grown man who serves as a mentor and a boy who is under his care or simply admires or stand in awe of him. The ancient Greeks, who practiced this systematically in the classical period, called this phenomenon pederasty, and I wrote extensively about it 26 years ago in the first part of my hardback book Republics Ancient and Modern (the pertinent chapter can be found in the first volume of the paperback edition).

In the course of these investigations, a number of other things came to light. First, a priest named Gerald Fitzgerald – who had in 1947 in New Mexico founded a small religious order named Congregation of the Servants of the Paraclete to counsel priests who had difficulty with alcoholism, substance abuse, celibacy, and the like – had for decades been trying to alert the American bishops and officials in the Vatican (including Pope Paul VI) to the fact that priestly pederasty (which, he said, was unheard of before World War II) was within the American Catholic Church a growing problem. And he had persistently tried to persuade the hierarchy to forbid the perpetrators’ supervision of boys and to laicize them – all to no avail.

It also turned out that in 1984, when a scandal of this sort broke out in the diocese of Lafayette, LA, a Dominican priest named Thomas P. O’Doyle — who was a canon lawyer working for the Papal Nuncio in Washington and had seen numerous reports of a similar kind cross his desk – had joined with a Louisiana lawyer named F. Ray Mouton, Jr., and another priest, a psychiatrist named Michael Peterson, who directed a hospital for troubled priests and knew a great deal, to conduct an extensive investigation of clerical misconduct along these lines throughout the United States. The report that these three men produced was sent to every bishop in the country in May 1985, and then it was ignored – and bishop after bishop continued the long-standing practice of covering up the scandals that arose, of paying off the victims and eliciting from them a non-disclosure agreement, and of transferring the perpetrators from one parish to another and even from one diocese to another.

Not long after the scandal first broke and the National Review Board issued its 2004 report, I was a guest at a dinner hosted by a Catholic friend, as was a highly intelligent, young local priest who, everyone knew, would someday become a bishop. By then it was evident to anyone who bothered to read the report that pederasty, not pedophilia, was the problem, and I had long known that there were seminaries in the United States that were essentially cathouses in which all of the cats were male.

When talk turned to the clerical scandal, I suggested that the fatal decision made by the American bishops in 1985 to continue the practice of covering everything up must have come from Rome. If, I argued, every diocese followed the same procedures, the bishops must have received guidance from the center. Could it then be the case, I asked, that this is not a peculiarly American problem; that this is going on elsewhere, all over the world; that Rome is the epicenter; and that the Papal nuncio in Washington or his superiors at the Vatican are complicit? Could it be the case that the colleges in Rome, established for the education of especially promising seminarians from all over the world, were in effect gay bordellos and that promotion into the hierarchy for many a young priest came at a price?

My host knew what I was talking about. He had once been a Jesuit novice, and he had been expelled from the Jesuits by the provincial for complaining about the sexual misconduct going on in the novitiate all around him. What I remember most vividly, however, was the silence of the young priest at the dinner table. He had been talkative. Now he said not a word. He was even then a handsome young man, and he had studied at the North American College at a time when he was no doubt even more striking. As we left, I remember saying to my wife, “He knows more than he is willing to divulge.”

I do not mean to say that he was complicit. I doubt that very much. I do mean to suggest that he had received unwanted attention and that he knew that, if he talked about it, it would put a stop to his clerical career.

Later, of course, it became evident that my suspicions with regard to Rome were justified. In the intervening years, there have been scandals identical to the American scandal in Canada, Australia, Belgium, Bavaria, Ireland, Honduras, Chile, and elsewhere. And, a few years ago, we learned that a host of high-level figures in the Curia were being blackmailed by their male lovers. I am told that Pope Benedict, who had already by that time contracted Parkinson’s Disease, resigned his office in this connection because he knew that there needed to be a purge and he feared that he did not have the physical stamina to carry it out himself. In his memoirs, Pope Benedict touches on the “gay lobby” and confesses to a lack of resoluteness on his own part. As everyone understood at the time, the task of cleaning house was to be left to his successor.

In the interim between Pope Benedict’s papacy and that of his successor, we received another indication of the depth of the problem. In the newspapers of Scotland, we learned that Keith Michael Patrick O’Brien, a cardinal and archbishop who was the Primate of Scotland, had been buggering seminarians and young priests for years and that nothing had been done in response to the complaints that they had submitted to the Papal Nuncio. It was only when they went public in 2013 that the Vatican acted.

Unfortunately, however, Benedict’s successor was Jorge Mario Bergoglio of Argentina – the man who calls himself Pope Francis. As a Belgian cardinal named Gottfried Daneels – who had been removed as an archbishop because he had covered up pederasty on the part of another Belgian cardinal and had come out in support of contraception, divorce, gay marriage, euthanasia, and abortion – revealed in his memoirs, Bergoglio’s candidacy was promoted by the St. Gallen Group, a part of what Catholics call “the Lavender Mafia.” This disgraced figure stood on the balcony with Bergoglio after he was elected Pope; he was chosen to say the prayer at the new Pope’s inauguration; and there was joy in the ranks of those inclined to break the vow of celibacy.

If you want to get a sense of what such people thought, I suggest that you read “The Vatican’s Secret Life,” an article that appeared in Vanity Fair in December 2013. It is an eye-opener. Its author, Michael Joseph Gross, is not scandalized by what he found. He celebrates it; and, tellingly, he never once mentions, even under the guise of pedophilia, the propensity of prominent priests to indulge in pederasty. As Gross observes,

At the Vatican, a significant number of gay prelates and other gay clerics are in positions of great authority. They may not act as a collective but are aware of one another’s existence. And they inhabit a secretive netherworld, because homosexuality is officially condemned. Though the number of gay priests in general, and specifically among the Curia in Rome, is unknown, the proportion is much higher than in the general population. Between 20 and 60 percent of all Catholic priests are gay, according to one estimate cited by Donald B. Cozzens in his well-regarded The Changing Face of the Priesthood. For gay clerics at the Vatican, one fundamental condition of their power, and of their priesthood, is silence, at least in public, about who they really are.

Clerics inhabit this silence in a variety of ways. A few keep their sexuality entirely private and adhere to the vow of celibacy. Many others quietly let themselves be known as gay to a limited degree, to some colleagues, or to some laypeople, or both; sometimes they remain celibate and sometimes they do not. A third way, perhaps the least common but certainly the most visible, involves living a double life. Occasionally such clerics are unmasked, usually by stories in the Italian press. In 2010, for the better part of a month, one straight journalist pretended to be the boyfriend of a gay man who acted as a “honeypot” and entrapped actual gay priests in various sexual situations. (The cardinal vicar of Rome was given the task of investigating. The priests’ fates are unknown.)

There are at least a few gay cardinals, including one whose long-term partner is a well-known minister in a Protestant denomination. There is the notorious monsignor nicknamed “Jessica,” who likes to visit a pontifical university and pass out his business card to 25-year-old novices. (Among the monsignor’s pickup lines: “Do you want to see the bed of John XXIII?”) There’s the supposedly straight man who has a secret life as a gay prostitute in Rome and posts photographs online of the innermost corridors of the Vatican. Whether he received this privileged access from some friend or family member, or from a client, is impossible to say; to see a known rent boy in black leather on a private Vatican balcony does raise an eyebrow.

I recommend that you read the whole article. The author interviewed a great many clerics in Rome, and he makes it clear that they were delighted with the choice of Bergoglio and with his selection of advisers.

They had reason to be delighted. Since his election, Pope Francis has done everything within his power to soften and subvert the Church’s teaching concerning human sexuality. He put the Lavender Mafia in charge of the two Synods on the Family held in 2014 and 2015. They tried to push through their agenda; and, when the assembled bishops balked, they got a tongue-lashing from the Pope, and he inserted in the final report without comment two paragraphs that had not received the requisite two-thirds vote. All of this – including the machinations of the St. Gallen Group and the role played by Cardinal Daneels – is laid out in detail by an English Catholic, who was in Rome during the early year of this papacy, and who writes under the pseudonym Marcantonio Colonna. The title is The Dictator Pope: The Inside Story of the Francis Papacy.

In the last few weeks, we have received further evidence of the power of the prelate-pederasts. A grand jury convened in Pennsylvania has revealed that Donald Wuerl, while bishop of Pittsburgh, covered up a priest-run child-porn ring and a host of other abuses cases involving something on the order of 100 priests, using the age-old trick of pay-offs and non-disclosure agreements. But this did not stop him from being named Archbishop of Washington DC and of being made a Cardinal – which is to say, a Prince of the Church. He was not even high on the list of possible nominees submitted by the Papal Nuncio. Someone powerful in the Vatican wanted him promoted, and Pope Francis responded to the news of his guilt not by ordering an investigation into Wuerl’s promotion, but with a dodge – by attributing collective guilty to us all.

This past weekend, the chickens finally came home to roost. We had already learned of the predatory conduct of Theodore McCarrick, Wuerl’s predecessor as Cardinal-Archbishop of Washington. The evidence showed that he had buggered altar boys and seminarians while auxiliary bishop in New York, bishop of Metuchen in New Jersey, and Archbishop of Newark. Formal complaints had been lodged against him as the 1990s and continued to be lodged in later years, but they were ignored, and he was nonetheless promoted. On Saturday night, Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò, who was the Papal Nuncio in Washington from 2011 to 2016, released an eleven-page testament, revealing that Pope Benedict had learned of McCarrick’s conduct, that he had acted against the man in 2009 or 2010 by silencing him, prohibiting him from travel, and forbidding him to say mass in public; that in 2013 he had himself personally warned Pope Francis against McCarrick, spelling out in detail the man’s misdeeds; that Francis had reversed the restrictions imposed on McCarrick by Benedict; that he had taken him as his chief American advisor; and that Francis had ignored the advice of the Papal Nuncio and accepted that of McCarrick in choosing archbishops and bishops for the United States – including Blaise Cupich, the Cardinal-Archbishop of Chicago, and Joseph Tobin, the Cardinal-Archbishop of Newark. Viganò also did something on Saturday night that, as far as I know, no high-ranking prelate has done in more than six hundred years. He called on the Pope to resign.

In the meantime, Monsignor Jean-Francois Lantheaume, former first counsellor at the apostolic nunciature in Washington, DC has emerged to confirm that Viganò‘s predecessor had been instructed to confine McCarrick by Pope Benedict, that he had himself witnessed the confrontation with McCarrick, and that everything else that Viganò himself had said was true. To this, we must add that Viganò named names in the Vatican, specifying which high officials had obstructed the investigation into McCarrick’s conduct.

As all of this suggests, we are now at a turning point. The Lavender Mafia controls the Papacy and the Vatican overall, and Pope Francis is packing the College of Cardinals, who will elect the next Pope, with sympathizers. Pope Francis and his minions have now been exposed, named, and shamed; and there will be a civil war within the Roman Catholic Church. Either Francis leaves and his supporters and clients are purged. Or the Church is conceded to those who for decades have sheltered and promoted the pederasts and those who regard their abuse of minors as a matter indifferent. It is time that those bishops, archbishops, and cardinals who are innocent of such conduct stand up and force a house-cleaning. In the meantime, the laity should speak up loud and clear.

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  1. Doctor Robert Member
    Doctor Robert
    @DoctorRobert

    The (apathetic) King Prawn (View Comment):

    Paul A. Rahe (View Comment):

    The (apathetic) King Prawn (View Comment):

    Thanks for laying all this out for us.

    Yes, it is quite a story. I have been following it for a long time. The Vanity Fair article I read when it was published, and I then thought, “We are in for quite a ride.” The striking feature is how stupid Francis is. Rehabilitating McCarrick . . . that is idiocy. And the same goes for his association with Daneels.

    Some of us on the outside are kind of wondering where the torches and pitchforks are. Yet another institution in which the concentration of power amplifies the negative parts of the human nature.

    Hundreds of young men world wide violated, raped, involuntarily  introduced to homosexuality, over a half century.

    Yet there was no public response at the time.  Not in the US, not in Europe, not in Latin America.

    So where are the police?

    Where are the beatings?

    Where are the revenge murders?

    Where are the priests being run out of Dodge?

    • #61
  2. Paul A. Rahe Member
    Paul A. Rahe
    @PaulARahe

    Amy Schley (View Comment):

    Paul A. Rahe (View Comment):

    The (apathetic) King Prawn (View Comment):

    Thanks for laying all this out for us.

    Yes, it is quite a story. I have been following it for a long time. The Vanity Fair article I read when it was published, and I then thought, “We are in for quite a ride.” The striking feature is how stupid Francis is. Rehabilitating McCarrick . . . that is idiocy. And the same goes for his association with Daneels.

    Am I the only person who remembers he did the same thing with Mauro Inzoli? Did no one care so long as it was an Italian avaricious pederast he tried to rehabilitate until it became too scandalous?

    There has been a steady drumbeat.

    • #62
  3. Paul A. Rahe Member
    Paul A. Rahe
    @PaulARahe

    Cato Rand (View Comment):

    I don’t doubt much of this but am I misreading the OP if I think it implies (without saying) that a high percentage of gay priests have sexual relations with minors? I wonder if that’s true? I doubt it. I certainly won’t defend the ones who do. But neither will I slander the ones who don’t by painting with an unduly broad brush.

    I also wonder who’s responsible for the “hidden netherworld” – those who inhabit it? Or those who make it necessary by persecuting its inhabitants? 30 years ago, gay life was everywhere a “hidden netherworld” at next to no fault of gay people. It was so at the time of most of these crimes, and it still is so in much of the world. If having red hair was grounds for assault, imprisonment, or loss of jobs, families, friends and homes, there would be a “hidden netherworld” of redheads (who dyed their hair to pass).

    My suspicion is that the numbers are exaggerated. But in high places . . .

    • #63
  4. Paul A. Rahe Member
    Paul A. Rahe
    @PaulARahe

    Herbert defender of the Realm,… (View Comment):

    9thDistrictNeighbor (View Comment):

    I don’t quite know what to do…Cupich is our bishop. He’s been a thorn in the side ever since he showed up. What good would it do to write to him at all?

    Paul A. Rahe: First, a priest named Gerald Fitzgerald – who had in 1947 in New Mexico founded a small religious order named Congregation of the Servants of the Paraclete to counsel priests who had difficulty with alcoholism, substance abuse, celibacy, and the like – had for decades been trying to alert the American bishops and officials in the Vatican (including Pope Paul VI) to the fact that priestly pederasty (which, he said, was unheard of before World War II)….

    This last, to me, is fascinating.

    Does anyone think that the quality of priests in regards to pedophiles in the ranks was better pre WWII?

    Yes.

    • #64
  5. Cato Rand Inactive
    Cato Rand
    @CatoRand

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    Sorry for the non-Catholic question, but why don’t non-celibate priests just say, “this isn’t for me. I’m sorry.” And live honest lives as non-celibate men? Why the insistence on being what you are not?

    I don’t think anybody – gay or straight – is naturally celibate.  I think celibacy is expected to feel like a sacrifice regardless.  So I’m guessing every priest, gay, straight, complying with his vows, or violating them, has some “this isn’t for me” moments when they doubt their choice. 

    In maybe more direct answer to your question, there were times and places where leaving the priesthood carried its own massive stigma.  Not 21st century America maybe, but in much of the Catholic world through much of history.  Ordination was like marriage – for life.  And very hard to discard.

    • #65
  6. Doctor Robert Member
    Doctor Robert
    @DoctorRobert

    Ontheleftcoast (View Comment):

    James Lileks (View Comment):
    If it happens, this will be blamed on homophobia, which is a disqualifying attribute for any institution these days. I suspect that the narrative on this story will cast the critics as illiberal opponents of a necessary new church

    Already happening. Today, National Propaganda Radio was pushing the idea that Archbishop Viganò is a disgruntled homophobe with a grudge against the Pope.

    One hopes so.  In face of all of this evidence of official scheming and creating a culture of pederasty, homophobia and anti-papist grudges should be the order of the day.

    • #66
  7. Paul A. Rahe Member
    Paul A. Rahe
    @PaulARahe

    The (apathetic) King Prawn (View Comment):

    I suspect the wagon circling to start in short order to protect the institution even if it means protecting the guilty individuals as well. Yep, right on cue.

    For once, I think that Robbie George is wrong. Vigano is a truth-teller. He nailed Cardinal Bertone on the graft scandal, and the evidence laid out in the various sources I linked is dispositive. People in the Vatican have been protecting the pederasts for a long time. It has not stopped, and this Pope has publicly embraced a number of the worst offenders.

    As for the truth coming out, how, pray tell, could that happen — when the perpetrators and their pals would be in charge of the investigation? Archbishop Vigano is a very brave man.

    • #67
  8. Paul A. Rahe Member
    Paul A. Rahe
    @PaulARahe

    Go Ahead Redact My Day (View Comment):

    Hypatia (View Comment):

    Cato Rand (View Comment):

    Is that true?

    Haven’t there also always been non-religious gay “netherworlds”?

    What did Auden mean, 60 years ago,, when he said “Berlin means boys”?

    This particular cover just seems to have been the safest. And for the longest time.

    The organized persecution and rejection of heterosexual seminarians in favor of homosexual candidates has been going on for several decades and was covered by Michael S. Rose in Goodbye Good Men among other books at the time. You can easily google the case of Fr John O’ Connor a former Dominican in Chicago who tried to blow the whistle back in the 1970’s and 1980’s and his expulsion from the Dominican order as a reward for his troubles. This is pretty old news.

     

     

    Amen

    • #68
  9. Paul A. Rahe Member
    Paul A. Rahe
    @PaulARahe

    Go Ahead Redact My Day (View Comment):

    Herbert defender of the Realm,… (View Comment):

    Go Ahead Redact My Day (View Comment):

    Herbert defender of the Realm,… (View Comment):

    9thDistrictNeighbor (View Comment):

    I don’t quite know what to do…Cupich is our bishop. He’s been a thorn in the side ever since he showed up. What good would it do to write to him at all?

    Paul A. Rahe: First, a priest named Gerald Fitzgerald – who had in 1947 in New Mexico founded a small religious order named Congregation of the Servants of the Paraclete to counsel priests who had difficulty with alcoholism, substance abuse, celibacy, and the like – had for decades been trying to alert the American bishops and officials in the Vatican (including Pope Paul VI) to the fact that priestly pederasty (which, he said, was unheard of before World War II)….

    This last, to me, is fascinating.

    Does anyone think that the quality of priests in regards to pedophiles in the ranks was better pre WWII?

    Do you have evidence that it wasn’t?

    Why would human nature change 70 years ago?

    The question’s already been explored in depth. When you finish reading the book let me know. In addition to being deliberately infiltrated, time tested ascetical practices were abandoned for deranged psychological theories with predictable consequences.

    After Asceticism provides a close up look at the clergy sex abuse crisis still rocking the Catholic Church. The first study of its kind, it shows how the infiltration of therapeutic psychology on the training and lifestyles of clergy spawned a cavalier attitude in many priests and bishops about sex and prayer, causing the collapse of ascetical discipline with its devastating effects in the sex abuse crisis. Chapters probe the findings of the John Jay Report on clerical sexual misconduct; that sexual misconduct by priests was rare in the first half of the twentieth century because of the dedication to ascetical discipline; why the volumes of past research on the psychology of priests failed to predict the sexual crisis; whether homosexual priests can remain chaste. After Asceticism moves beyond criticism to an eye-opening explanation on how self-denial, fasting, and religious devotion work together to bolster attitudes and behavior for complete sexual abstinence. After Asceticism draws the connection between the ancient ideas about sex, prayer, and spiritual friendship with modern scientific research on the biology of fasting and the psychology of hope. It warns, however, that as society becomes more deeply immersed in pagan sexuality, the Catholic Church will remain mired in sexual crisis absent a return to its ascetical tradition.

    Thank you for this.

    • #69
  10. Hypatia Member
    Hypatia
    @

    Cato Rand (View Comment):

    Hypatia (View Comment):

    Cato Rand (View Comment):

    I don’t doubt much of this but am I misreading the OP if I think it implies (without saying) that a high percentage of gay priests have sexual relations with minors? I wonder if that’s true? I doubt it. I certainly won’t defend the ones who do. But neither will I slander the ones who don’t by painting with an unduly broad brush.

    I also wonder who’s responsible for the “hidden netherworld” – those who inhabit it? Or those who make it necessary by persecuting its inhabitants? 30 years ago, gay life was everywhere a “hidden netherworld” at next to no fault of gay people. It was so at the time of most of these crimes, and it still is so in much of the world. If having red hair was grounds for assault, imprisonment, or loss of jobs, families, friends and homes, there would be a “hidden netherworld” of redheads (who dyed their hair to pass).

    So, it was heterosexual Society which forced these gay men to take vows in a religious institution which condemned homosexuality and enjoins celibacy upon them, so they could engage freely in homosexual intercourse? Is that what you’re saying?

    Is that true?

    It was heterosexual society (and many religious institutions) that forced these gay men into hiding. It didn’t “force” them into the church. But by making the church a place of nominal celibacy, it did turn the church into a convenient place to hide.

    The whole thing about celibacy is too multilayered a paradox to even get into again.  But I so agree.  And I have said so.  The church has largely been set up,as a “convenient place to hide” for gay men.

    Haven’t there also always been non-religious gay “netherworlds”?

    Yes. That’s exactly what I said. Did you actually bother to read what I said? Or did you just start sputtering with rage* at it?

    What did Auden mean, 60 years ago,, when he said “Berlin means boys”?

    I have no idea, but one 60 year old quote doesn’t add much to this conversation.

    it was meant to counter the idea that gay men had nowhere else to turn yo enjoy themselves.  Actually I reckon the quote is from the 1920s-30s.   Point is, gay people had an entire continent, Europe, where they could openly enjoy  themselves.  I read the same thing in a bio of Radclyffe  Hall.

    This particular cover just seems to have been the safest. And for the longest time.

    Yes. Exactly.

    (you say that like its a good thing. )

    I did read what you said, and I’m not * “sputtering with rage”.  I just want to lay bare the emerging viewpoint which I have come to believe, after reading the attitudes of Catholics and now, thanks to you , gays, on this forum since the topic became hot again recently, will be the judgment of history.

    There have been widespread anti-clerical persecutions Throughout history. .  Sixteenth Century England, Revolutionary France, Germany, Austria, Portugal, OMG Mexico!

    There was always some accusation of a rampant vice within clerical ranks. Treason, or at least the influence of a foreign power, has always been popular  and you can’t blame people for thinking of that because of the Papacy.

    But now, those episodes have come to be viewed as the clergy being singled out and persecuted on the pretense of prevalence among them  of some vice which,,actually, was widespread throughout the particular country or society at the time.   It is the “witch hunt” aspect of these purges and expulsions which we remember now, not the guilt or innocence of individual priests.   I conclude this episode will go into the history books cast in that same light.

    I have already been accused of “Catholic-bashing”  for essentially saying the same thing about the church as a “hiding place” for gays which you said above.  But Catholics  occupy a secure, nay, privileged position in our country; they and their institution are wealthy and powerful. ( If you don’t  believe  this, remember the Pope’s visit a few years ago:  the entire East Coast pretty much shut down to accommodate and hail his triumphal progress! )  so it takes a lot to induce them to dig out the dog-eared ol’ victim card.

    Not so with your group, though.   Gay people’s victim cards are still crisp and new. The tide has already turned in your favor but it takes a while for the passionate sympathy which precedes  each radical change to dissipate.  I imagine when you posted your first comment suggesting that what has happened in the church is, not the fault of gay men, but a proportionate  or at least pardonable response to their low social status, you really didn’t expect any responses.  Who would dare, knowing who you are?  Who are we to judge?  Why, it’s like Dr Rahe had mocked a handicapped person or sump!n, and lo, one of them turns up on his thread to shame him!

    I know you will interpret this as “gay bashing”.  From what I’ve seen of your writing, I respect you as an attorney and a person.  Nor do I despise gay people in general.  And as I said, your comment was mostly interesting to me because I think it is the nascence of what will eventually become the judgment of history on this particular anti clerical scandal.

     

    • #70
  11. Herbert defender of the Realm,… Member
    Herbert defender of the Realm,…
    @Herbert

    Doctor Robert (View Comment):

    The (apathetic) King Prawn (View Comment):

    Paul A. Rahe (View Comment):

    The (apathetic) King Prawn (View Comment):

    Thanks for laying all this out for us.

    Yes, it is quite a story. I have been following it for a long time. The Vanity Fair article I read when it was published, and I then thought, “We are in for quite a ride.” The striking feature is how stupid Francis is. Rehabilitating McCarrick . . . that is idiocy. And the same goes for his association with Daneels.

    Some of us on the outside are kind of wondering where the torches and pitchforks are. Yet another institution in which the concentration of power amplifies the negative parts of the human nature.

    Hundreds of young men world wide violated, raped, involuntarily introduced to homosexuality, over a half century.

    Yet there was no public response at the time. Not in the US, not in Europe, not in Latin America.

    So where are the police?

    Where are the beatings?

    Where are the revenge murders?

    Where are the priests being run out of Dodge?

    The nuns took out the revenge in homes for unwed mothers in Ireland?

    • #71
  12. Cato Rand Inactive
    Cato Rand
    @CatoRand

    Hypatia (View Comment):

    Cato Rand (View Comment):

    Hypatia (View Comment):

    Cato Rand (View Comment):

    I don’t doubt much of this but am I misreading the OP if I think it implies (without saying) that a high percentage of gay priests have sexual relations with minors? I wonder if that’s true? I doubt it. I certainly won’t defend the ones who do. But neither will I slander the ones who don’t by painting with an unduly broad brush.

    I also wonder who’s responsible for the “hidden netherworld” – those who inhabit it? Or those who make it necessary by persecuting its inhabitants? 30 years ago, gay life was everywhere a “hidden netherworld” at next to no fault of gay people. It was so at the time of most of these crimes, and it still is so in much of the world. If having red hair was grounds for assault, imprisonment, or loss of jobs, families, friends and homes, there would be a “hidden netherworld” of redheads (who dyed their hair to pass).

    So, it was heterosexual Society which forced these gay men to take vows in a religious institution which condemned homosexuality and enjoins celibacy upon them, so they could engage freely in homosexual intercourse? Is that what you’re saying?

    Is that true?

    It was heterosexual society (and many religious institutions) that forced these gay men into hiding. It didn’t “force” them into the church. But by making the church a place of nominal celibacy, it did turn the church into a convenient place to hide.

    The whole thing about celibacy is too multilayered a paradox to even get into again. But I so agree. And I have said so. The church has largely been set up,as a convenient place to hide.

     

    Haven’t there also always been non-religious gay “netherworlds”?

    Yes. That’s exactly what I said. Did you actually bother to read what I said? Or did you just start sputtering with rage* at it?

    What did Auden mean, 60 years ago,, when he said “Berlin means boys”?

    I have no idea, but one 60 year old quote doesn’t add much to this conversation.

    it was meant to counter the idea that gay men had nowhere else to turn yo enjoy themselves. Actually I reckon it was from the Thirties. Point is gay people had an entire continent, Europe, where they could distort themselves. I read the same thing in a bio of Radclyffe Hall.

    This particular cover just seems to have been the safest. And for the longest time.

    Yes. Exactly.

    (you say that like its a good thing. )

     

    I did read what you said, and I’m not * “sputtering with rage”. I just want to lay bare the emerging viewpoint which I have come to believe, after reading the attitudes of Catholics and now, thanks to you , gays, on this forum since the topic became hot again recently, will be the judgment of history.

    There have been widespread anti-clerical persecutions Througout history. . Sixteenth Century England, Revolutionary France, Germany, Austria, OMG Mexico! There was always some accusation of a rampant vice within clerical ranks. Treason, or at least the influence of a foreign power, has always been popular and you can’t blame people for thinking of that because of the Papacy.

    But now, those episodes have come to be viewed as the clergy being singled out and persecuted on the pretense of prevalence among them of some vice which,,actually, was widespread throughout the particular country or society at the time. It is the witch hunt aspect of these purges and expulsions which we remember now, not the guilt or innocence of individual priests. I conclude this episode will go into the history books cast in that same light.

    I can’t even follow this so I’m just going to leave it alone.

    • #72
  13. Go Ahead Redact My Day Inactive
    Go Ahead Redact My Day
    @Pseudodionysius

    I hate to insert documented statistics, but:

    • #73
  14. Hypatia Member
    Hypatia
    @

    Cato Rand (View Comment):

    Hypatia (View Comment):

    Cato Rand (View Comment):

    Hypatia (View Comment):

    Cato Rand (View Comment):

    I don’t doubt much of this but am I misreading the OP if I think it implies (without saying) that a high percentage of gay priests have sexual relations with minors? I wonder if that’s true? I doubt it. I certainly won’t defend the ones who do. But neither will I slander the ones who don’t by painting with an unduly broad brush.

    I also wonder who’s responsible for the “hidden netherworld” – those who inhabit it? Or those who make it necessary by persecuting its inhabitants? 30 years ago, gay life was everywhere a “hidden netherworld” at next to no fault of gay people. It was so at the time of most of these crimes, and it still is so in much of the world. If having red hair was grounds for assault, imprisonment, or loss of jobs, families, friends and homes, there would be a “hidden netherworld” of redheads (who dyed their hair to pass).

    So, it was heterosexual Society which forced these gay men to take vows in a religious institution which condemned homosexuality and enjoins celibacy upon them, so they could engage freely in homosexual intercourse? Is that what you’re saying?

    Is that true?

    It was heterosexual society (and many religious institutions) that forced these gay men into hiding. It didn’t “force” them into the church. But by making the church a place of nominal celibacy, it did turn the church into a convenient place to hide.

    The whole thing about celibacy is too multilayered a paradox to even get into again. But I so agree. And I have said so. The church has largely been set up,as a convenient place to hide.

     

    Haven’t there also always been non-religious gay “netherworlds”?

    Yes. That’s exactly what I said. Did you actually bother to read what I said? Or did you just start sputtering with rage* at it?

    What did Auden mean, 60 years ago,, when he said “Berlin means boys”?

    I have no idea, but one 60 year old quote doesn’t add much to this conversation.

    it was meant to counter the idea that gay men had nowhere else to turn yo enjoy themselves. Actually I reckon it was from the Thirties. Point is gay people had an entire continent, Europe, where they could distort themselves. I read the same thing in a bio of Radclyffe Hall.

    This particular cover just seems to have been the safest. And for the longest time.

    Yes. Exactly.

    (you say that like its a good thing. )

     

    I did read what you said, and I’m not * “sputtering with rage”. I just want to lay bare the emerging viewpoint which I have come to believe, after reading the attitudes of Catholics and now, thanks to you , gays, on this forum since the topic became hot again recently, will be the judgment of history.

    There have been widespread anti-clerical persecutions Througout history. . Sixteenth Century England, Revolutionary France, Germany, Austria, OMG Mexico! There was always some accusation of a rampant vice within clerical ranks. Treason, or at least the influence of a foreign power, has always been popular and you can’t blame people for thinking of that because of the Papacy.

    But now, those episodes have come to be viewed as the clergy being singled out and persecuted on the pretense of prevalence among them of some vice which,,actually, was widespread throughout the particular country or society at the time. It is the witch hunt aspect of these purges and expulsions which we remember now, not the guilt or innocence of individual priests. I conclude this episode will go into the history books cast in that same light.

    I can’t even follow this so I’m just going to leave it alone.

    Let me express it in one sentence: history will view this episode as follows; homosexuality was used as a pretense for persecution of the Catholic clergy. 

    • #74
  15. SkipSul Inactive
    SkipSul
    @skipsul

    Cato Rand (View Comment):

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    Sorry for the non-Catholic question, but why don’t non-celibate priests just say, “this isn’t for me. I’m sorry.” And live honest lives as non-celibate men? Why the insistence on being what you are not?

    I don’t think anybody – gay or straight – is naturally celibate.

    I’m not so sure on that.  I’ve met a few who really were.  It’s rare, but it does happen.

    I think celibacy is expected to feel like a sacrifice regardless.

    It definitely is.  In Orthodoxy it is referred to as a form of martyrdom in letters going back to the earliest days of monasticism.

    So I’m guessing every priest, gay, straight, complying with his vows, or violating them, has some “this isn’t for me” moments when they doubt their choice.

    Definitely.  I’ve heard this first hand.

    In maybe more direct answer to your question, there were times and places where leaving the priesthood carried its own massive stigma. Not 21st century America maybe, but in much of the Catholic world through much of history. Ordination was like marriage – for life. And very hard to discard.

    Indeed.  There is a tremendous amount of shame of leaving monasticism and / or the priesthood anyway because it is a breaking of vows, but couple that with also having to let your church know (which could be hundreds or even thousands of people) it is incredibly embarrassing, no matter how delicately it is handled, and regardless of whether the casting off of such vows was done for noble or ignoble reasons.  This was supposed to be for life, and now I have to start all over again?

    • #75
  16. Arahant Member
    Arahant
    @Arahant

    SkipSul (View Comment):
    There is a tremendous amount of shame of leaving monasticism and / or the priesthood anyway because it is a breaking of vows, but couple that with also having to let your church know (which could be hundreds or even thousands of people) it is incredibly embarrassing, no matter how delicately it is handled, and regardless of whether the casting off of such vows was done for noble or ignoble reasons. This was supposed to be for life, and now I have to start all over again?

    Also, it’s the only job some of them have had or known since they were young men.

    • #76
  17. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Go Ahead Redact My Day (View Comment):

    I hate to insert documented statistics, but:

    It would also be useful to know what percent of the total population is homosexual and homosexual, but I suppose it’s hard to get those data.  

    • #77
  18. Tom Meyer, Common Citizen Member
    Tom Meyer, Common Citizen
    @tommeyer

    Paul A. Rahe:

    … What I remember most vividly, however, was the silence of the young priest at the dinner table. He had been talkative. Now he said not a word. He was even then a handsome young man, and he had studied at the North American College at a time when he was no doubt even more striking. As we left, I remember saying to my wife, “He knows more than he is willing to divulge.”

    I do not mean to say that he was complicit. I doubt that very much. I do mean to suggest that he had received unwanted attention and that he knew that, if he talked about it, it would put a stop to his clerical career.

    I don’t think those options exhaust the reasons why he might have gone quiet. Maybe he was an abuser himself. Or maybe he had no experience of the matter at all, either as a victim or an abuser.

    • #78
  19. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Tom Meyer, Common Citizen (View Comment):

    Paul A. Rahe:

    … What I remember most vividly, however, was the silence of the young priest at the dinner table. He had been talkative. Now he said not a word. He was even then a handsome young man, and he had studied at the North American College at a time when he was no doubt even more striking. As we left, I remember saying to my wife, “He knows more than he is willing to divulge.”

    I do not mean to say that he was complicit. I doubt that very much. I do mean to suggest that he had received unwanted attention and that he knew that, if he talked about it, it would put a stop to his clerical career.

    I don’t think those options exhaust the reasons why he might have gone quiet. Maybe he was an abuser himself. Or maybe he had no experience of the matter at all, either as a victim or an abuser.

    I think Dr. Rahe already covered that last option. At least that’s the way I interpreted it.  

    • #79
  20. Susan in Seattle Member
    Susan in Seattle
    @SusaninSeattle

    Late to the thread and I haven’t read all the comments thoroughly yet but want to recommend Rod Dreher’s site where he has been writing daily about this for a few weeks now.  

    • #80
  21. Paul A. Rahe Member
    Paul A. Rahe
    @PaulARahe

    Tom Meyer, Common Citizen (View Comment):

    Paul A. Rahe:

    … What I remember most vividly, however, was the silence of the young priest at the dinner table. He had been talkative. Now he said not a word. He was even then a handsome young man, and he had studied at the North American College at a time when he was no doubt even more striking. As we left, I remember saying to my wife, “He knows more than he is willing to divulge.”

    I do not mean to say that he was complicit. I doubt that very much. I do mean to suggest that he had received unwanted attention and that he knew that, if he talked about it, it would put a stop to his clerical career.

    I don’t think those options exhaust the reasons why he might have gone quiet. Maybe he was an abuser himself. Or maybe he had no experience of the matter at all, either as a victim or an abuser.

    I know the man. I very much doubt that he was ever an abuser. You are right, however, that he may have had no direct experience of the matter. But he will have known of it. Read the piece from Vanity Fair. Rome is a hotbed, and one cannot avoid knowing.

    • #81
  22. Tom Meyer, Common Citizen Member
    Tom Meyer, Common Citizen
    @tommeyer

    Paul A. Rahe (View Comment):

    I know the man. I very much doubt that he was ever an abuser. You are right, however, that he may have had no direct experience of the matter. But he will have known of it. Read the piece from Vanity Fair. Rome is a hotbed, and one cannot avoid knowing.

    Appreciated.

    • #82
  23. Richard Easton Coolidge
    Richard Easton
    @RichardEaston

    Hypatia (View Comment):

    Let me express it in one sentence: history will view this episode as follows; homosexuality was used as a pretense for persecution of the Catholic clergy.

    I don’t see that.  If the Catholic Church doesn’t clean up its act now it will face persecution because the hierarchy covered up a huge scandal.  Alas, it’s a self inflicted black eye.  This staunch Protestant has appreciated the support and wisdom of the Catholic Church over the past couple of decades on sexual issues.  Alas, too many in the CC including the current Pope are following the disastrous approach of liberal Protestantism which has led to empty churches.

    • #83
  24. Go Ahead Redact My Day Inactive
    Go Ahead Redact My Day
    @Pseudodionysius

    This report, originally published by Italian blogger, journalist, and author Aldo Maria Valli, tells the story of how Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò, former apostolic nuncio to the United States, came to publish his now infamous report about the cover-up of clerical abuse in the highest echelons of the Church and a hint of what it has cost him.

    As Valli reports near the end of his story, Viganò told him he had “already purchased an airplane ticket. He will leave the country. He cannot tell me where he is going. I am not to look for him. His old cell phone number will no longer work. We say goodbye for the last time.”

    In a report for EWTN, Catholic journalist Edward Pentin confirms this, saying Viganò fears for his safety and that his life is in danger.

    A former apostolic nuncio, widely respected for his professionalism and decency, forced to go into hiding at age 78 for simply telling the truth about his fellow apostolic successors. There is perhaps more wisdom in this than there appears to be at first glance. Viganò’s colleague, Monsignor Jean François Lantheaume, whose job it was to inform Cardinal McCarrick of the news that Pope Benedict XVI had levied sanctions against him because of his abuses, said earlier this week, after confirming the veracity of the Viganò report:

    These may be the last lines I write… if I am found chopped up by a chainsaw and my body sunk in concrete, the police and the hacks will say that we have to consider the hypothesis of suicide!!!

    A funny thing happened on the way to blowing the whistle on the Clerical Cosa Nostra

    • #84
  25. Go Ahead Redact My Day Inactive
    Go Ahead Redact My Day
    @Pseudodionysius

    And don’t forget about the murder of Father Alfred Kunz. A three part series.

    • #85
  26. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Go Ahead Redact My Day (View Comment):

    This report, originally published by Italian blogger, journalist, and author Aldo Maria Valli, tells the story of how Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò, former apostolic nuncio to the United States, came to publish his now infamous report about the cover-up of clerical abuse in the highest echelons of the Church and a hint of what it has cost him.

    As Valli reports near the end of his story, Viganò told him he had “already purchased an airplane ticket. He will leave the country. He cannot tell me where he is going. I am not to look for him. His old cell phone number will no longer work. We say goodbye for the last time.”

    In a report for EWTN, Catholic journalist Edward Pentin confirms this, saying Viganò fears for his safety and that his life is in danger.

    A former apostolic nuncio, widely respected for his professionalism and decency, forced to go into hiding at age 78 for simply telling the truth about his fellow apostolic successors. There is perhaps more wisdom in this than there appears to be at first glance. Viganò’s colleague, Monsignor Jean François Lantheaume, whose job it was to inform Cardinal McCarrick of the news that Pope Benedict XVI had levied sanctions against him because of his abuses, said earlier this week, after confirming the veracity of the Viganò report:

    These may be the last lines I write… if I am found chopped up by a chainsaw and my body sunk in concrete, the police and the hacks will say that we have to consider the hypothesis of suicide!!!

    A funny thing happened on the way to blowing the whistle on the Clerical Cosa Nostra

    Thank you, Ricochet, for making this known to me.  

    • #86
  27. Paul A. Rahe Member
    Paul A. Rahe
    @PaulARahe

    Susan in Seattle (View Comment):

    Late to the thread and I haven’t read all the comments thoroughly yet but want to recommend Rod Dreher’s site where he has been writing daily about this for a few weeks now.

    You are right. Dreher’s articles are very good.

    • #87
  28. Cato Rand Inactive
    Cato Rand
    @CatoRand

    Hypatia (View Comment):

    Cato Rand (View Comment):

    Hypatia (View Comment):

    Cato Rand (View Comment):

    Hypatia (View Comment):

    Cato Rand (View Comment):

    I don’t doubt much of this but am I misreading the OP if I think it implies (without saying) that a high percentage of gay priests have sexual relations with minors? I wonder if that’s true? I doubt it. I certainly won’t defend the ones who do. But neither will I slander the ones who don’t by painting with an unduly broad brush.

    I also wonder who’s responsible for the “hidden netherworld” – those who inhabit it? Or those who make it necessary by persecuting its inhabitants? 30 years ago, gay life was everywhere a “hidden netherworld” at next to no fault of gay people. It was so at the time of most of these crimes, and it still is so in much of the world. If having red hair was grounds for assault, imprisonment, or loss of jobs, families, friends and homes, there would be a “hidden netherworld” of redheads (who dyed their hair to pass).

    So, it was heterosexual Society which forced these gay men to take vows in a religious institution which condemned homosexuality and enjoins celibacy upon them, so they could engage freely in homosexual intercourse? Is that what you’re saying?

    Is that true?

    It was heterosexual society (and many religious institutions) that forced these gay men into hiding. It didn’t “force” them into the church. But by making the church a place of nominal celibacy, it did turn the church into a convenient place to hide.

    The whole thing about celibacy is too multilayered a paradox to even get into again. But I so agree. And I have said so. The church has largely been set up,as a convenient place to hide.

     

    Haven’t there also always been non-religious gay “netherworlds”?

    Yes. That’s exactly what I said. Did you actually bother to read what I said? Or did you just start sputtering with rage* at it?

    What did Auden mean, 60 years ago,, when he said “Berlin means boys”?

    I have no idea, but one 60 year old quote doesn’t add much to this conversation.

    it was meant to counter the idea that gay men had nowhere else to turn yo enjoy themselves. Actually I reckon it was from the Thirties. Point is gay people had an entire continent, Europe, where they could distort themselves. I read the same thing in a bio of Radclyffe Hall.

    This particular cover just seems to have been the safest. And for the longest time.

    Yes. Exactly.

    (you say that like its a good thing. )

     

    I did read what you said, and I’m not * “sputtering with rage”. I just want to lay bare the emerging viewpoint which I have come to believe, after reading the attitudes of Catholics and now, thanks to you , gays, on this forum since the topic became hot again recently, will be the judgment of history.

    There have been widespread anti-clerical persecutions Througout history. . Sixteenth Century England, Revolutionary France, Germany, Austria, OMG Mexico! There was always some accusation of a rampant vice within clerical ranks. Treason, or at least the influence of a foreign power, has always been popular and you can’t blame people for thinking of that because of the Papacy.

    But now, those episodes have come to be viewed as the clergy being singled out and persecuted on the pretense of prevalence among them of some vice which,,actually, was widespread throughout the particular country or society at the time. It is the witch hunt aspect of these purges and expulsions which we remember now, not the guilt or innocence of individual priests. I conclude this episode will go into the history books cast in that same light.

    I can’t even follow this so I’m just going to leave it alone.

    Let me express it in one sentence: history will view this episode as follows; homosexuality was used as a pretense for persecution of the Catholic clergy.

    Oh.  At least I can follow that.  I think it’s a bizarre, unfathomably unlikely, prediction, but I understand it.

    • #88
  29. RufusRJones Member
    RufusRJones
    @RufusRJones

    I am listening to Laura Ingraham right now. She’s talking with that Catholic reporter, Raymond Arayo. The scope of this thing is mind-boggling. Good luck fixing it. 

    • #89
  30. Go Ahead Redact My Day Inactive
    Go Ahead Redact My Day
    @Pseudodionysius

    • #90
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