I’m Struggling with Personal Freedom Today

 

The Libertarian in me is struggling to stay consistent in my desire for personal freedoms, especially where personal property is concerned. Mustangman and I put our house on the market a couple days ago — we’re moving to Dayton, OH in a few weeks. The Portland market can only be described one way: hot! Most houses listed below $400,000 are under contract within a week, and we have been hoping for a fast sale.

This weekend, we packed up the kitties and took a trip up to Yakima to see Ryan M and his family while our realtor did open houses and a ton of showings. Everyone loved our house with one glaring exception. Here’s where we take a step back.

When you stand in the street looking at our house, to the right is a well-kept house and yard. To the left, you might as well be looking at a junkyard/auto repair shop. We never talk to this neighbor, who I not-so-affectionately refer to as “the grease monkey,” but he’s always out in his driveway “fixing” one of the three rusted-out 1960s Chevy trucks parked in his driveway and the street. In the back of the truck parked on the street is a load of roofing shingles waiting to be taken to the dump from where he replaced his roof … almost a year ago. There’s an old exercise bike in the front yard, along with several tires and an axle.

The backyard is so much worse. If you are ever in need of bags of concrete, water heaters, car parts, kitchen sinks, or marijuana, his backyard is the place to go. As you might imagine, the idea of living next to a trash heap is less than appealing to potential buyers. More than one person has said the next door neighbor was a barrier to them putting in an offer, and I am left desperately yearning for something I normally abhor — HOAs.

My general regard for HOAs is low; they many times end up being run by community busybodies seeking to create their little fiefdom by means of CC&Rs. I’ve seen ridiculous outcomes from battles fought in the month HOA meetings, resulting in huge fines being paid and lawsuits over the pruning of trees. But right now I would gladly proclaim, “My kingdom for an HOA!” While we live in a heavily populated area, we are part of an unincorporated town, so we are under the county’s jurisdiction. As such, there is little we can do to make the neighbor pick up his yard, which is affecting our home value.

I have always thought that people should be able to do with their property as they see fit. But what if the things you see fit are in bad taste? What if your lifestyle brings down the property value of those around you? At this point, are not his personal freedoms to live like a slob harming me? Should I have the right to require he conform to community standards of upkeep?

I’m conflicted about this, y’all. But more than that, I just really want to go over there and tell him, “Act like an adult, put your damn toys away, and go get a job!”

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  1. Front Seat Cat Member
    Front Seat Cat
    @FrontSeatCat

    If you are moving, it’s probably too late to plant trees unless you have good irrigation system. If so, you’ll have to put up a nice tall fence and some trees – you”ll get the money back in the sale – otherwise you’ll be stuck because people will either low ball because of the eye sore or turn around and leave. We’ve lived with HOA’s since moving to FL and would not consider otherwise – my husband and I have served and currently serve – it’s worth it. 

    When we lived in Massachusetts, we didn’t have any issues and didn’t live in a restricted community – but there are cities and towns where your current neighbor is seen as normal – ugh. Shame on him.  Best wishes on your move!

    • #61
  2. Front Seat Cat Member
    Front Seat Cat
    @FrontSeatCat

    Kay of MT (View Comment):

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Given the description you provide of your neighbor and the ineffectiveness of the police so far, I’d say a fence is likely your easiest option.

    I also want to point out that not everyone pays much attention to the immediate neighbors when they’re looking at a house.

    I didn’t when I bought a house, then after moving in discovered it was a meth house next door. I had the redwood fence built and then planted rose bushes along the fence. Then, I think I mentioned once long ago in a post, that I open carried when I worked in my yard. After that I organized a Neighborhood Watch because they had been terrorizing the neighborhood. We finally got rid of them in about 6 months and had the city come out and put a hold on the house because the landlord was misusing the house. However, it takes time to do this stuff, but I tried to go back on the people who sold me the house for non disclosure, but didn’t have enough money to sue them. They even denied owning a dog that made herself at home when all the neighbors identified her, even told me what her name was. The fence will probably be the fastest and best thing to do.

    Good for you Kay!! 

    • #62
  3. Front Seat Cat Member
    Front Seat Cat
    @FrontSeatCat

    Max Ledoux (View Comment):

    Definitely invest in a 10 foot tall wooden fence.

    A fence builder can put a decorative lattice across the top so it doesn’t look like a fortress.  And I would ask him anyway to clean it up and haul off the shingles – even offer to help and round up some big guys – he may be agreeable.

    • #63
  4. Chuckles Coolidge
    Chuckles
    @Chuckles

    Quake Voter (View Comment):

    Freedom doesn’t preclude bad luck. I’m sorry for you both.

    You’re leaving so even medium term options are useless. An eight-foot fence, a good if not peak offer in a hot market, and then fully enjoy life away from the pig.

    Enjoy Dayton.

     

    Wonder if they have pigs in Dayton.  Or drug dealers or…  Never been there, though.

    Can’t HOA’s be considered a mutually agreed to contract between neighbors?  Does that violate libertarian principles?  Educate me.

    Personally, I think HOAs are a good thing:  Just have to investigate before moving in (I tend to say “oops”).  Have known a couple that were moribund at best and it showed in the neighborhood.  Then I had one in Florida (Boca Raton) that was right over the top.  Solution?  Move from the beautiful neighborhood to another beautiful neighborhood with a more reasonable HOA.

    • #64
  5. Vicryl Contessa Thatcher
    Vicryl Contessa
    @VicrylContessa

    The grease monkey is bumping his music super loud right now. Of course, it’s not quiet hours so there’s nothing I can do. Anyone want to come be careless with a cigarette butt?

    • #65
  6. Marythefifth Inactive
    Marythefifth
    @Marythefifth

    You want to be careful that when the city comes to demolish a house on your street, they don’t demolish yours in error.

    • #66
  7. TheSockMonkey Inactive
    TheSockMonkey
    @TheSockMonkey

    Neighbor Contessa,

    If you’d like to take my roofing shingles to the dump, you go right ahead. And where should I use my exercise bike? In the basement? Is it too much for me to enjoy the solitude of my spin class for one in the fresh, morning air, whilst surveying the scenery of my neighbors’ well-kept lawns?

    How dare you, madam? How dare you?

    j/k

    • #67
  8. The Cloaked Gaijin Member
    The Cloaked Gaijin
    @TheCloakedGaijin

    Vicryl Contessa:
    Should I have the right to require he conform to community standards of upkeep?

    No, as you and similar people like you may have benefited from buying your house at a cheaper price. 

    You also state that you “never talk to this neighbor”.  Never?  If you had talked him, he may have acted differently, especially if you had been willing to help him in some way. 

    It’s the good neighbor tax.  Being a good neighbor takes time and perhaps even a small amount of money.

    I guess the next owner of the house will get the privilege of getting to be the good neighbor.  Some good home buyers might actually even look forward to such challenges.

    • #68
  9. Joe P Member
    Joe P
    @JoeP

    Vicryl Contessa (View Comment):

    Doug Watt (View Comment):

    Just curious, how large is the grow operation?

    We don’t know for sure, but we’re pretty sure. One of the first things he did when he moved in was build a shed in the back. One day the door was left open, and the walls appeared to be lined with plastic or mylar. There was a grow shop van parked outside for a long time, and I’ve also seen people coming and going out of the backyard at all hours of the night. We are 500-600 feet from a middle school, so him growing is against the law, but I was told that even if he was busted for it it would only be a citation.

    Did you call the DEA? I don’t think they hand out “only” citations.

    • #69
  10. Jamie Lockett Member
    Jamie Lockett
    @JamieLockett

    That sucks, VC. I have a similar situation in that my direct neighbor has a rather dilapidated house that he continually rents out to college students. I echo others here in recommending you talk to him and invest in a nice tall fence. 

    • #70
  11. TheSockMonkey Inactive
    TheSockMonkey
    @TheSockMonkey

    The Cloaked Gaijin (View Comment):

    You also state that you “never talk to this neighbor”. Never? If you had talked him, he may have acted differently, especially if you had been willing to help him in some way.

    It’s the good neighbor tax. Being a good neighbor takes time and perhaps even a small amount of money.

    I guess the next owner of the house will get the privilege of getting to be the good neighbor. Some good home buyers might actually even look forward to such challenges.

    That’s odd, because my definition of good neighbor includes them never talking to me except in case of emergency.

    • #71
  12. Old Buckeye Inactive
    Old Buckeye
    @OldBuckeye

    Vicryl Contessa (View Comment):

    So for all my hemming and hawing about not getting offers, we got three between yesterday evening and today. And the house has only been on the market since Thursday evening.

    Take the one that involves the least amount of waiting: cash buyers, buyers who’ve got their loan all lined up, etc. I’m suggesting haste before they do too much scouting of Mr. Nasty next door. :) 

    • #72
  13. 1967mustangman Inactive
    1967mustangman
    @1967mustangman

    To all the suggestion thank you but we have a nice fence and trees and all the good stuff.  There are a couple of problems with these:

    1 – We can’t fence off the view of his front yard which at last count had 3 axles, a transmission, the back half of an old Chevy pickup, and a truck that is constantly in process of renovation.  

    2- There is another truck that is sitting on the street, is only moved often enough to prove that it moves, and is still mounded with roofing from his roofing project last year.

    3 – We can see into his backyard from the small bedroom upstairs.  It is strewn with junk and they built this beautiful blue shed out there an then at some point painted an orange demon head on it.  

    Fortunately, we have offers and should soon be out.  

    • #73
  14. Randy Weivoda Moderator
    Randy Weivoda
    @RandyWeivoda

    1967mustangman (View Comment):

    To all the suggestion thank you but we have a nice fence and trees and all the good stuff. There are a couple of problems with these:

    1 – We can’t fence off the view of his front yard which at last count had 3 axles, a transmission, the back half of an old Chevy pickup, and a truck that is constantly in process of renovation.

    2- There is another truck that is sitting on the street, is only moved often enough to prove that it moves, and is still mounded with roofing from his roofing project last year.

    3 – We can see into his backyard from the small bedroom upstairs. It is strewn with junk and they built this beautiful blue shed out there an then at some point painted an orange demon head on it.

    Fortunately, we have offers and should soon be out.

    You could at least entertain us by putting up some pictures.

    • #74
  15. Hammer, The Inactive
    Hammer, The
    @RyanM

    Well, you could always try your hand at suing him under some sort of nuisance or waste law (e.g. the use of his property has diminished the value of yours).  Might be like milking a turnip if you win, though.

    • #75
  16. Fred Cole Inactive
    Fred Cole
    @FredCole

    Randy Weivoda (View Comment):

    You could at least entertain us by putting up some pictures.

    Yeah. I second this. As the kids say: Pics or it didn’t happen!

    • #76
  17. Full Size Tabby Member
    Full Size Tabby
    @FullSizeTabby

    RightAngles (View Comment):

    Hoy1 new comment was made on I’m struggling with personal freedom todayacon (View Comment):

    Regarding the general matter of HOAs (and libertarianism), no one forces anyone to buy property governed by an HOA to my knowledge. It’s one’s own responsibility to avoid that situation if one has an issue with them.

    This is how I see it too. Many property owners welcome HOA restrictions to guard against neighbors who paint their houses weird colors or have a washing machine on cinderblocks on the front lawn. Even if you theoretically feel sympathetic toward “free spirits,” when they crash into your property value it’s a different story and you want them to live somewhere far from you

    We are conflicted on moving to an area covered by HOA (which we will need to consider as we move to Texas later this year). Not having a mess like VC has described is the attraction. But, Mrs. Tabby likes a brightly colored front door (preferably red) and window trim, which doesn’t fit within the range of tan to beige that most HOA’s permit. Our last house in California was a small cottage style house that we painted a fairly bright blue with burgundy doors and window trim. 

    • #77
  18. Blondie Thatcher
    Blondie
    @Blondie

    I’m going to use this post to further my point to be a full time RVer when we retire. Don’t like our neighbors, pull out and move to another site, campground, state, you get my point. 😉

    • #78
  19. Painter Jean Moderator
    Painter Jean
    @PainterJean

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

    Randy Weivoda (View Comment):

    You could at least entertain us by putting up some pictures.

    Yeah. I second this. As the kids say: Pics or it didn’t happen!

    And I third this!

    • #79
  20. Mike H Inactive
    Mike H
    @MikeH

    Midget Faded Rattlesnake (View Comment):

    Vicryl Contessa: . But right now I would gladly proclaim, “My kingdom for an HOA!”

    It’s OK for libertarians to like HOAs. There is no shame in it.

    As long as they aren’t backed by the state! ;)

    • #80
  21. Mike H Inactive
    Mike H
    @MikeH

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

     

    Most hardcore libertarians will still abide the common law. From the discription, this guy’s yard and conduct may meet the common law definition of nuisance. Perhaps @formerlawprof Can weigh in on this.

    I’m all for letting people do what they want with their own property, and I admire your respect for property rights, but if it is as you describe, some government intervention may be warranted.

    However, I think the first step would be talking to this guy.

    “Most”

    Fred, my experiences here at Ricochet is I have been told that reduction in property values is not “harm” even though we can put a $ figure to it. I have also been told be libertarians that zoning should not be allowed. I have also been told that drugs should be 100% legal. People were less clear on noise laws. I do know that libertarians think HOAs are the Devils work (metaphorically for you atheists), and should not be enforced on a new person moving in. And don’t get me started on historical districts.

     

    Some libertarians on this site have argued that someone has a right to build a strip club next to my house and that any law or rule stopping them is a bad thing.

    So, this is one area where libertarians are wrong. Thank God, they don’t enforce their tyranny on the rest of us.

    The thing is that it’s possible for restrictive rules to be as much of a taking as creating an eyesore. So it’s not as simple as one person is doing something other people don’t appreciate, and so they are the ones in the wrong. We all appreciate beauty and order, but there’s a healthy balance between beauty and order and freedom of action. And I don’t propose to know the answer for the balance, that’s for the free market and common law (but I repeat myself) to determine.

    • #81
  22. barbara lydick Inactive
    barbara lydick
    @barbaralydick

    Vicryl Contessa (View Comment):
    Get out, no you did not! That is insane! How do people think that the solution to inept government is more government?! I don’t understand how people can go through life with the experiences with local government that they have and think “you know, we need more of this.”

    Oh come now. A new government worker is sorely needed to do the walking between offices… 

     

    • #82
  23. Chuckles Coolidge
    Chuckles
    @Chuckles

    Blondie (View Comment):

    I’m going to use this post to further my point to be a full time RVer when we retire. Don’t like our neighbors, pull out and move to another site, campground, state, you get my point. 😉

    Been  there, done that.  Only comment is that most private campgrounds are more interested in the dollar now than keeping you happy.  Popular public campgrounds are a particular challenge, especially on weekends.    Good news is, if you wait a few days you get new neighbors.

    • #83
  24. A-Squared Inactive
    A-Squared
    @ASquared

    When I lived in Atlanta, the house three doors down was owned by the crazy cat lady complete with the yard that had probably not been mowed in a decade.  One day I was coming home from work and a fire truck was blocking my street.  Since my parents were staying with us and my mother smokes, I immediately feared my mother had burned my house down.  Fortunately, it was the cat lady’s house that burned down (and yes, the cat lady survived the fire.)  

    Once I knew everyone was safe I told my parents that my property value probably just went up 10% as a result of that fire.  With the benefit of hindsight (and knowing how much I made when I sold that house), that was probably an understatement.

    The house was a complete loss because apparently she had torn up all the floor boards for heat but every room and hall way had stacks of newspapers from floor to ceiling.  Once the fire started there was nothing they could do but protect the neighbors’ houses.  

     

    • #84
  25. Spin Inactive
    Spin
    @Spin

    Mike H (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

     

    Most hardcore libertarians will still abide the common law. From the discription, this guy’s yard and conduct may meet the common law definition of nuisance. Perhaps @formerlawprof Can weigh in on this.

    I’m all for letting people do what they want with their own property, and I admire your respect for property rights, but if it is as you describe, some government intervention may be warranted.

    However, I think the first step would be talking to this guy.

    “Most”

    Fred, my experiences here at Ricochet is I have been told that reduction in property values is not “harm” even though we can put a $ figure to it. I have also been told be libertarians that zoning should not be allowed. I have also been told that drugs should be 100% legal. People were less clear on noise laws. I do know that libertarians think HOAs are the Devils work (metaphorically for you atheists), and should not be enforced on a new person moving in. And don’t get me started on historical districts.

     

    Some libertarians on this site have argued that someone has a right to build a strip club next to my house and that any law or rule stopping them is a bad thing.

    So, this is one area where libertarians are wrong. Thank God, they don’t enforce their tyranny on the rest of us.

    The thing is that it’s possible for restrictive rules to be as much of a taking as creating an eyesore. So it’s not as simple as one person is doing something other people don’t appreciate, and so they are the ones in the wrong. We all appreciate beauty and order, but there’s a healthy balance between beauty and order and freedom of action. And I don’t propose to know the answer for the balance, that’s for the free market and common law (but I repeat myself) to determine.

    Wouldn’t a good Libertarian say that he or she is not at all opposed to a Home Owners Association?  It’s a contract which you enter in to freely.  No one forced you to move in the neighborhood.  What the Libertarian would be opposed to is the government telling you that you had to get rid of your broken down chevy full of roofing material.  

    • #85
  26. James Lileks Contributor
    James Lileks
    @jameslileks

    Mike H (View Comment):
    We all appreciate beauty and order,

    Do we? Some people are utter slobs, and their houses are trashed because they lead disordered lives.

    • #86
  27. Spin Inactive
    Spin
    @Spin

    James Lileks (View Comment):

    Mike H (View Comment):
    We all appreciate beauty and order,

    Do we? Some people are utter slobs, and their houses are trashed because they lead disordered lives.

    Oh, you’ve driven by, eh?  Well I’ll have you know…I’m remodelling…

    • #87
  28. Duane Oyen Member
    Duane Oyen
    @DuaneOyen

    An HOA is a basic experiment in direct democracy, provided that it is honest and locally managed, as opposed to being a perpetual annuity revenue stream for the builder as so many condos seem to be.  Power accrues to those who show up.  Often , people don’;t want to show up, it is too much work.  Thus, those who want to run things do; it take quite a bit of time to manage things.  Our HOA president retired and spends a lot of time on this, but is also thus readily available just a few doors down.

    Our subdivision of 114 units is about exactly right, and I like the annual walk-through that enforces curb appeal.  The architectural standards are too rigid, but we are re-writing those as I “speak”.

    • #88
  29. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

    Vicryl Contessa (View Comment):
    How do people think that the solution to inept government is more government?! I don’t understand how people can go through life with the experiences with local government that they have and think “you know, we need more of this.”

    Because freedom is scary to some people. They think if the only think keeping your neighbor from erecting a oil derick next door to them is holy mother government.

    No. Maybe some of us have seen bad neighbors once to often.

    But, hey, if it works for you to make anyone who disagree with you in to someone who is just afraid of freedom , you demonstrate you don’t want to talk you want to call names. 

    Yet again, we see libertarianism is just like the left. 

    • #89
  30. Mike H Inactive
    Mike H
    @MikeH

    Spin (View Comment):

    Mike H (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

     

    Most hardcore libertarians will still abide the common law. From the discription, this guy’s yard and conduct may meet the common law definition of nuisance. Perhaps @formerlawprof Can weigh in on this.

    I’m all for letting people do what they want with their own property, and I admire your respect for property rights, but if it is as you describe, some government intervention may be warranted.

    However, I think the first step would be talking to this guy.

    “Most”

    Fred, my experiences here at Ricochet is I have been told that reduction in property values is not “harm” even though we can put a $ figure to it. I have also been told be libertarians that zoning should not be allowed. I have also been told that drugs should be 100% legal. People were less clear on noise laws. I do know that libertarians think HOAs are the Devils work (metaphorically for you atheists), and should not be enforced on a new person moving in. And don’t get me started on historical districts.

     

    Some libertarians on this site have argued that someone has a right to build a strip club next to my house and that any law or rule stopping them is a bad thing.

    So, this is one area where libertarians are wrong. Thank God, they don’t enforce their tyranny on the rest of us.

    The thing is that it’s possible for restrictive rules to be as much of a taking as creating an eyesore. So it’s not as simple as one person is doing something other people don’t appreciate, and so they are the ones in the wrong. We all appreciate beauty and order, but there’s a healthy balance between beauty and order and freedom of action. And I don’t propose to know the answer for the balance, that’s for the free market and common law (but I repeat myself) to determine.

    Wouldn’t a good Libertarian say that he or she is not at all opposed to a Home Owners Association? It’s a contract which you enter in to freely. No one forced you to move in the neighborhood. What the Libertarian would be opposed to is the government telling you that you had to get rid of your broken down chevy full of roofing material.

    Ideally, HOA disputes would be handled by private arbitration, not the full force of government authority.

    • #90
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