Ricochet is the best place on the internet to discuss the issues of the day, either through commenting on posts or writing your own for our active and dynamic community in a fully moderated environment. In addition, the Ricochet Audio Network offers over 50 original podcasts with new episodes released every day.
I’m Struggling with Personal Freedom Today
The Libertarian in me is struggling to stay consistent in my desire for personal freedoms, especially where personal property is concerned. Mustangman and I put our house on the market a couple days ago — we’re moving to Dayton, OH in a few weeks. The Portland market can only be described one way: hot! Most houses listed below $400,000 are under contract within a week, and we have been hoping for a fast sale.
This weekend, we packed up the kitties and took a trip up to Yakima to see Ryan M and his family while our realtor did open houses and a ton of showings. Everyone loved our house with one glaring exception. Here’s where we take a step back.
When you stand in the street looking at our house, to the right is a well-kept house and yard. To the left, you might as well be looking at a junkyard/auto repair shop. We never talk to this neighbor, who I not-so-affectionately refer to as “the grease monkey,” but he’s always out in his driveway “fixing” one of the three rusted-out 1960s Chevy trucks parked in his driveway and the street. In the back of the truck parked on the street is a load of roofing shingles waiting to be taken to the dump from where he replaced his roof … almost a year ago. There’s an old exercise bike in the front yard, along with several tires and an axle.
The backyard is so much worse. If you are ever in need of bags of concrete, water heaters, car parts, kitchen sinks, or marijuana, his backyard is the place to go. As you might imagine, the idea of living next to a trash heap is less than appealing to potential buyers. More than one person has said the next door neighbor was a barrier to them putting in an offer, and I am left desperately yearning for something I normally abhor — HOAs.
My general regard for HOAs is low; they many times end up being run by community busybodies seeking to create their little fiefdom by means of CC&Rs. I’ve seen ridiculous outcomes from battles fought in the month HOA meetings, resulting in huge fines being paid and lawsuits over the pruning of trees. But right now I would gladly proclaim, “My kingdom for an HOA!” While we live in a heavily populated area, we are part of an unincorporated town, so we are under the county’s jurisdiction. As such, there is little we can do to make the neighbor pick up his yard, which is affecting our home value.
I have always thought that people should be able to do with their property as they see fit. But what if the things you see fit are in bad taste? What if your lifestyle brings down the property value of those around you? At this point, are not his personal freedoms to live like a slob harming me? Should I have the right to require he conform to community standards of upkeep?
I’m conflicted about this, y’all. But more than that, I just really want to go over there and tell him, “Act like an adult, put your damn toys away, and go get a job!”
Published in General
This is a real life reason libertarianism does not work in practice.
The government should be able to help communities set standards. He is causing you harm.
I am sorry u ate dealing with this.
I sympathize with your problem, VC. Our last house sold for less than it should have given the market and the neighborhood because of the neighbors. One never mowed their
weedslawn and the other installed an in-ground pool that took up their entire back yard. It was fenced but had no surrounding shrubbery or other eye-saving devices. These were not people with toned bodies and they lounged around the pool all day long. I hoped for rain whenever there was a showing scheduled so they wouldn’t be out. It was a situation similar to yours–we were in the county, there were no ordinances against unkempt lawns, etc. The fence might be helpful, or it might just draw attention to the problem. As @quakevoter said in #18, I’d be inclined to take any decent offer you get, even if it means less money in your pocket, just to get on with your plans.Most hardcore libertarians will still abide the common law. From the discription, this guy’s yard and conduct may meet the common law definition of nuisance. Perhaps @formerlawprof Can weigh in on this.
I’m all for letting people do what they want with their own property, and I admire your respect for property rights, but if it is as you describe, some government intervention may be warranted.
However, I think the first step would be talking to this guy.
“Most”
Fred, my experiences here at Ricochet is I have been told that reduction in property values is not “harm” even though we can put a $ figure to it. I have also been told be libertarians that zoning should not be allowed. I have also been told that drugs should be 100% legal. People were less clear on noise laws. I do know that libertarians think HOAs are the Devils work (metaphorically for you atheists), and should not be enforced on a new person moving in. And don’t get me started on historical districts.
Some libertarians on this site have argued that someone has a right to build a strip club next to my house and that any law or rule stopping them is a bad thing.
So, this is one area where libertarians are wrong. Thank God, they don’t enforce their tyranny on the rest of us.
Right. You think that because you misunderstand libertarianism, as evidenced by your last sentence.
@vicrylcontessa, did you move in with me and I not know it? I swear this sounds just like my neighbor. The only difference is they know they have a mess. They are super nice people but just have about 10 projects going on at various stages of completion (some are never going to be completed, I fear). He has replaced some siding, but has not painted it to match the rest of the house. There is one section that is without siding and has been for about 6 months. There are at least 8 cars on the property. Only one does not run (it is used as a storage unit). I know they all run because (as @randyweivoda’s neighbor did) he brings them all out in the cul-de-sac at least once a week. The neighbors on the other side of him recently put their house on the market. The messy neighbor’s wife even said she thinks they are moving because of their mess. No mention of cleaning it up. Just a sort of, “Oh well.” Makes me think if we even said something about it nothing would get done. “We’re gonna get around to painting the house one day.” At least they keep the grass cut and aren’t growing pot. Oh, one project is a shop he’s going to build in the backyard to “fix cars”. I’m so looking forward to the engine tuning at 11 PM.
Racism…
Solution!
Look up his mortgage issuer and insurance company, and inform them that there are hazards that represent personal injury risk. They tend to view any loose debris as a hazard, and will require him to clean it up, or lose his insurance/mortgage.
How do I know this works? My brother used to live in the land of Sodom and Granola, and it happened to him. He also used to work for certain companies who dealt with this all the time. Cleaning places up to keep them insured is a major insurance item.
It is highly obnoxious, but it works. Let me know!
Just a hint – if you’re ever keen to get rid of Mr R and me, don’t do this. We have a soft spot for this moody Finn.
that’s funny!
I am not trying to out do you, but I have a similar story.
The house next door to me was a rental. The landlord never put any money into the house. Consequently, it deteriorated and the tenants got worse and worse. At one point, between 9 pm and 4 am it had more traffic than an convenience store. Reported activity to the police, they didn’t seem to care. Finally, the sewer line between the house and the main line under the road got plugged. The landlord didn’t fix it. So the tenants took it upon themselves to route a new sewer line out the basement window. For nearly 2 years we had raw sewage running across their lawn on to my driveway and out into the street. Why 2 years? Because that is how long it took the city to condemn the house and force the tenants out. The house set empty for about a year, then it mysteriously burned. Then it sat there as a stinky, ugly, and unsafe, mess for 3 years. Why 3 years? Because that was how long it took the city to get an abandoned house demolished. This was an upscale neighborhood. Money to demo wasn’t an issue. They just put a lean on the property, and sold it through tax sale. The buyers were happy to pay the demo cost to get the lot.
All this time I wanted to sell and move to a piece of property I had in the country. I had to wait until the mess got cleaned up. Then I sold. You might think at least I had the option of waiting. In hind sight, I should have taken my loses, and sold 10 years earlier when things started to go bad.
I don’t know what the solution is, but like everything else, if you are looking for government solution you will be disappointed. I don’t think a HOA would have made a difference either.
Good luck in Dayton.
That’s so much worse than what we’re dealing with. And just goes to show how inept the government is. I recently experienced that ineptitude on a small scale the other week when changing my name- took 4 trips to the probate office to have them finally accept my name change petition. They will only accept name change petitions between the hours of 8:30 and 9:30 am on days starting with the letter R and only when Venus is in her fifth house. So stupid. The landlord-tenant laws are just beyond awful, especially for the landlord.
This falls under the Spandex misdemeanor statute. Wearing Spandex in the public view is a privilege, not a right.
I didn’t know you were living with me! What got Sacramento on the ball was my Neighborhood Watch program. A really wonderful cop came to the meeting and advised us what to do to be effective. I gave all the folks who were members a list of phone numbers to police, sheriff, housing authorities, electric co., sewer authorities, etc. and we all called on a daily bases, at times 10 or 15 times a day. We never let a day go by without calls. There were 8 or 10 houses involved in daily calls to the authorities in charge of all these problems. We had a steady stream of bigwigs coming into the neighbor hood. As I said, I open carried, and one day a customer got out of his car and offered me a big wad of money, I pulled my gun and threatened to shoot the money out of his hand if he didn’t leave my property. Another time one of them drove on the old folks lawn across the street and stared making wheelies, and again I threatened to shoot their tires if they didn’t leave. I got some of my co-workers to help repair their lawn. BTW, I had a bumper sticker on my car: “I have PMS and a .357.”
You get a reputation if you do stuff like this, but darn I had put a lot of money into buying my house. The old folks in the area had my phone number and kept me busy, I think they thought I was G-d’s right hand woman. But never underestimate a woman’s furry. After the druggies and riffraff was out of the area, (couple more houses involved) We had a beautiful, clean, and safe neighborhood. I had a regular supply of cookies from the old ladies. The old men helped me care for the 20 rose bushes I had planted. All in all, a good exchange.
Wow. That is just horrible. The HOA in the gated community where I lived for 8 years didn’t allow renters.
I don’t think a fence would make a bit of difference for VC’s situation because people do look at the surrounding houses when deciding to buy. It matters.
I believe this was mentioned above, but the city should have authorities (not necessarily police) to deal with this–or at least some of it. I’m guessing that there are zoning violations of some type. The problem would be how slowly the wheels turn, but I’d say it’s time to bust the guy. It’s within your own area of personal responsibility to prevent $$$ from being taken out of your pocket.
Regarding the general matter of HOAs (and libertarianism), no one forces anyone to buy property governed by an HOA to my knowledge. It’s one’s own responsibility to avoid that situation if one has an issue with them.
This is how I see it too. Many property owners welcome HOA restrictions to guard against neighbors who paint their houses weird colors or have a washing machine on cinderblocks on the front lawn. Even if you theoretically feel sympathetic toward “free spirits,” when they crash into your property value it’s a different story and you want them to live somewhere far from you
It is true, however, that municipalities often broker deals with the developers where the only way the developers can develop is through a HOA or other common-interest development. So we’re in the situation where government bodies don’t coerce people into joining HOAs, but do intervene in development in such a way that more new housing stock is HOAs than would necessarily be the case if government butted out more.
Another example of inept government. I applied for a building permit for my new house. When one county department got done with the application, I had to drive to the County office building, pick up the application, and walk it across the hall to the next department.
Get out, no you did not! That is insane! How do people think that the solution to inept government is more government?! I don’t understand how people can go through life with the experiences with local government that they have and think “you know, we need more of this.”
When my sister got her Texas driver’s license, they misspelled her last name. When she took it to the lady behind the counter, the lady told her they couldn’t alter an official document.
I just saw my brain my eyes rolled back so far.
I should write a post about changing my name and what a cluster that was dealing with the local government.
Just looked up my old house. Redwood fence on left of property has been replaced, and now a redwood fence across driveway. All the rose bushes are gone. Too bad as some of them were exotic and rare. However, the Night Blooming Jasmine across the front porch has covered the entire area. I trained the main branch across the top and let everything stream down. Back yard appears to be storage for junk cars. I had painted the house Crayola yellow so the cops and other city officials could find me in a hurry. It is now painted white. There are two front doors as I had turned the big room into a small apt for my daughter.
https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/975-Sonoma-Ave_Sacramento_CA_95815_M28743-07489
Because freedom is scary to some people. They think if the only think keeping your neighbor from erecting a oil derick next door to them is holy mother government.
Here in our little Midwestern town, I saw something similar with an abandoned house that took years for the city to demolish. But I talked to a city administrator I’ve gotten to know and so learned the reasons for the long wait: These kinds of procedures – condemning a property and eventually demolishing it — usually have to follow an established protocol. For example, the city attorney must attempt X number of times to contact the owners; inspections and reports must be conducted; legal notice must be served and in some cases brought before the city council; etc. In other words, a long time frame in which the owners can attempt to resolve the problems is usually granted. Now, this might make it inconvenient for the immediate neighbors of those properties, but take comfort from the fact that this shows a respect for property rights. It shouldn’t be easy for a city, county, or state to take control of property.
So for all my hemming and hawing about not getting offers, we got three between yesterday evening and today. And the house has only been on the market since Thursday evening.
We live in an acreage subdivision with minimal HOA covenants. Unfortunately, what you said about busybodies became true for us. After about 6 months of turmoil three of us ran for the board slots and shut down all the troublemakers. It was only 6 couples (out of 129 homeowners) but they really created a mess in a short period of time. Now everyone gets along (except for the 6 who are mad at us all the time). This mess happened in 2012 and things have been good since then, but you have to be on guard every second.
You can hope the folks that are offering don’t contact the local postal carrier. My carrier told me to ask next time I want to buy a house. The carriers know what is going on “next door”.
Pretty sure that violates the Geneva Convention. Not sure which Article, but Polka has got to be there somewhere, probably around using chemical agents and other weapons of mass destruction.