Charlottesville Violence Not Our Fight

 

This weekend’s violence at the University of Virginia’s campus in Charlottesville, VA, was a clash between tribes. Inevitably, the opposing factions tried to prove their superiority by force, which is, fundamentally, the only argument that can be made for the supremacy of one tribe over another.

The fight was between two socialist factions – socialist because collectivism is the pathology of socialism, whether the national socialism of the right or the Marxist socialism of the left. Neither conservatives nor libertarians have a dog in this fight.

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  1. Concretevol Thatcher
    Concretevol
    @Concretevol

    Exactly right Richard, exactly right

    • #1
  2. EJHill Podcaster
    EJHill
    @EJHill

    Extremism begets extremism. If we have any duty in moments like this it’s to point that out. No, it’s to scream that point as loud as we can.

    Leftists/Marxist/Progressives (take your pick) are embracing tactics and rhetoric that would make the Taliban proud. When they talk of white genocide, participate in the destruction of art (be it Confederate memorials or stone carvings at Yale), conduct kangaroo courts on campuses, etc., they are perpetuating more hatred. (It’s a charge they hurl at the right every time we bomb ISIS: “You’re only recruiting more of them!” The difference is that militant Islamists already have initiated a shooting war. Domestically we’re trying to prevent one.)

    We do have a dog in this fight. It’s called domestic tranquility. Preventing a war based on race that could rival any sectarian violence is in everyone’s interest.

    Now, let’s start by pointing out that Communism is a dead, white dude’s thing…

    • #2
  3. Richard Fulmer Inactive
    Richard Fulmer
    @RichardFulmer

    EJHill (View Comment):
    We do have a dog in this fight. It’s called domestic tranquility. Preventing a war based on race that could rival any sectarian violence is in everyone’s interest.

    Great point.  The last sentence in my post should have been, “We don’t have a side in this fight.”

    The Alt-Right is a tiny fringe group on the far right, while their counterparts are well within the mainstream left.  Moreover, the Alt-Right is, if anything, a reaction to the left’s belief that all of the world’s evil is a product of the western civilization created by dead white men.

    • #3
  4. Columbo Member
    Columbo
    @Columbo

    EJHill (View Comment):
    Extremism begets extremism. If we have any duty in moments like this it’s to point that out. No, it’s to scream that point as loud as we can.

    Leftists/Marxist/Progressives (take your pick) are embracing tactics and rhetoric that would make the Taliban proud. When they talk of white genocide, participate in the destruction of art (be it Confederate memorials or stone carvings at Yale), conduct kangaroo courts on campuses, etc., they are perpetuating more hatred. (It’s a charge they hurl at the right every time we bomb ISIS: “You’re only recruiting more of them!” The difference is that militant Islamists already have initiated a shooting war. Domestically we’re trying to prevent one.)

    We do have a dog in this fight. It’s called domestic tranquility. Preventing a war based on race that could rival any sectarian violence is in everyone’s interest.

    Now, let’s start by pointing out that Communism is a dead, white dude’s thing…

    And … that the extremism of “national socialism” is not of the “right”. It is still a “socialism” (i.e. dictatorship), that just happens to use some effective strategies of nationalism to take initial control of one’s country and subsequently subvert its entire constitutional foundation. That is not “of the right”.

    • #4
  5. Brian Watt Inactive
    Brian Watt
    @BrianWatt

    The major flaw in all of this is that fascism, properly understood, is not a phenomenon of the right at all. Instead, it is, and always has been, a phenomenon of the left. This fact — an inconvenient truth if there ever was one — is obscured in our time by the equally mistaken belief that fascism and communism are opposites. In reality, they are closely related, historical competitors for the same constituents. — Liberal Fascism by Jonah Goldberg

    As recently evidenced in the fire and fury over the “notorious” Google memo, it’s become clear that the MSM will be quick to associate any expressed thought or behavior that runs contrary to predominant SJW ideology or initiatives as part of the alt-right even if they are from hitherto known moderate conservatives or classical liberals; and further that the white supremacist movement is also the angry, racist child of conservative ideology – that is a Leftist smear tactic plain and simple.

    Conservatives would do well to distance themselves from these thugs whenever possible and cry foul whenever conservative commentators are labeled as members of the alt-right movement. The white nationalist movement has more genetic linkage to the KKK and the Democrat Party than the Republican Party or the conservative movement.

    I realize that there are those in the alt-right movement that seek to use the same fascist tactics to confront and beat back the fascist tactics of the progressive Neo-Marxist/Postmodernist Left – but that almost always exhibits itself in cheap sloganeering, Trump idolatry, Pepe frog memes, or brute force and hardly ever serious and rational discourse.

    So, the sentiment of the OP is correct: This is not our fight. But we will need to fight through thoughtful discourse with occasional blunt language to show that white nationalist tribalism has no place in the conservative movement.

    • #5
  6. DocJay Inactive
    DocJay
    @DocJay

    Damn straight.  Forget the lot of them.

    If a few thousand nazi loonies is the best the white hate groups can get I am optimistic that their ilk will die off.   The hate whitey groups gathered much strength under  Obama’s encouragement of racial hatred disguised as social justice.  They will be a much larger voice and I fear them far more than the nazi loonies.

    • #6
  7. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    White “supremacists?” How come all of them are distinctly below average, then?

    One report said they were hit with mace. It should be “mace.” Distribution of a couple of dozen depressed skull fractures should drive the rest back to their mothers’ basements where they belong.

    • #7
  8. Matt Balzer Member
    Matt Balzer
    @MattBalzer

    Mimi Arbeit, an organizer of the planned counter-protests, rejected Kessler’s argument that the rally was about freedom of speech.

    Arbeit macht frei?

    • #8
  9. Hoyacon Member
    Hoyacon
    @Hoyacon

    There’s wisdom in staying above the fray, but I’m inclined to go the other way and fight both of them.  As long as some of these clowns insist on putting “right” in any moniker that they use, it’s going to rub off.   This is a perfect example–from either perspective–of how the enemies of my enemies aren’t my friends.

    • #9
  10. Arahant Member
    Arahant
    @Arahant

    What I note in that picture is some very high end recording equipment. It appears that the press is in the thick of it, probably encouraging the fighting to allow better graphics.

    • #10
  11. Richard Fulmer Inactive
    Richard Fulmer
    @RichardFulmer

    Columbo (View Comment):
    And … that the extremism of “national socialism” is not of the “right”. It is still a “socialism” (i.e. dictatorship), that just happens to use some effective strategies of nationalism to take initial control of one’s country and subsequently subvert its entire constitutional foundation. That is not “of the right”.

     

    True.  I fell into the “left/right” word trap.  Nazism and Socialism are both collectivist, anti-market, anti-freedom philosophies.  Mussolini, Fascism’s founder, was a socialist who realized that the state doesn’t need to confiscate property in order to control it.  Controlling property owners accomplishes the same thing and much more besides.  

    For example, it was only after he had all the factory owners shot that Lenin discovered that running a factory was not something that any literate person could do.  By controlling (rather than killing) the factory owners, Hitler was able to exploit their expertise as well as their factories.  The main difference between Hitler and Lenin was tactics, not philosophy.

    • #11
  12. Randy Webster Member
    Randy Webster
    @RandyWebster

    Matt Balzer (View Comment):

    Mimi Arbeit, an organizer of the planned counter-protests, rejected Kessler’s argument that the rally was about freedom of speech.

    Arbeit macht frei?

    I think more the opposite, at least in this case.

    • #12
  13. Bob W Member
    Bob W
    @WBob

    Anyone who really wants to denounce the kkk protesters with a pure motive would IGNORE them. Let them march down empty streets. This in your face counter protesting just helps them spread their message. I don’t feel sorry for anyone getting beaten up in that mosh pit.

    • #13
  14. lowtech redneck Coolidge
    lowtech redneck
    @lowtech redneck

    What conservatives in Southern states should be doing to prevent things like this is to designate such sites as protected heritage and cultural sites, removing the ball from both white nationalist AND anti-Southern hate groups.  I suspect that the Chamber of Commerce and other donors have privately warned state Republican parties off of that obvious solution, which would have prevented the travesty in New Orleans, for instance-it will take organized pressure, which is difficult to come by when supporters face job losses and demonization by the national press.  In other words, the cultural ‘cleansings’ will continue for the foreseeable future, and more clashes between extremists will occur.

    In the meantime, the Nazis are recruiting through the exploitation of justified anger, while scaring away other opponents of the progressive crusade against Southern heritage, leading equally ignorant and self-serving progressives to conclude that they are in a righteous fight against fascism, and encouraging them onto more acts of cultural destruction and censorship.  A vicious cycle, one that ‘staying above the fray’ will do nothing to alleviate.  We should actively denounce both groups, and take steps that are within our power to take in order to prevent said cycle from continuing…..but I don’t expect that to happen.

    • #14
  15. Brian Watt Inactive
    Brian Watt
    @BrianWatt

    CNN is already characterizing the protest as a right-wing event…of course.

    • #15
  16. Arahant Member
    Arahant
    @Arahant

    Brian Watt (View Comment):
    CNN is already characterizing the protest as a right-wing event…of course.

    Of course.

    • #16
  17. Paul Dougherty Member
    Paul Dougherty
    @PaulDougherty

    Brian Watt (View Comment):
    CNN is already characterizing the protest as a right-wing event…of course.

    To be fair, when the self described white nationalists/supremacists adopt the tag line “Unite the Right”, I can excuse the lack of nuanced thinking.

    Since it had been made abundantly clear this time last summer that these people didn’t really exist, monikers will tend to be imprecise no matter what is used.

    • #17
  18. Joseph Stanko Coolidge
    Joseph Stanko
    @JosephStanko

    Richard Fulmer (View Comment):

    Columbo (View Comment):
    And … that the extremism of “national socialism” is not of the “right”. It is still a “socialism” (i.e. dictatorship), that just happens to use some effective strategies of nationalism to take initial control of one’s country and subsequently subvert its entire constitutional foundation. That is not “of the right”.

    True. I fell into the “left/right” word trap. Nazism and Socialism are both collectivist, anti-market, anti-freedom philosophies. Mussolini, Fascism’s founder, was a socialist who realized that the state doesn’t need to confiscate property in order to control it. Controlling property owners accomplishes the same thing and much more besides.

    I just started reading a book called The Cleanest Race: How North Koreans See Themselves and Why It Matters (it seemed timely).  Among other things, it argues that despite having been a Soviet client state the Marxism-Leninism never took root, the regime never bought into class consciousness and the international worker’s struggle, and instead their ideology is based on nationalism and the alleged racial purity and superiority of the Korean people.  Thus, North Korea is better understood as a fascist state rather than one of the few surviving holdovers from Marxism.

    All of which seems plausible once you realize that fascism and Marxism are close cousins rather than polar opposites.

     

    • #18
  19. Brian Watt Inactive
    Brian Watt
    @BrianWatt

    Joseph Stanko (View Comment):

    Richard Fulmer (View Comment):

    Columbo (View Comment):
    And … that the extremism of “national socialism” is not of the “right”. It is still a “socialism” (i.e. dictatorship), that just happens to use some effective strategies of nationalism to take initial control of one’s country and subsequently subvert its entire constitutional foundation. That is not “of the right”.

    True. I fell into the “left/right” word trap. Nazism and Socialism are both collectivist, anti-market, anti-freedom philosophies. Mussolini, Fascism’s founder, was a socialist who realized that the state doesn’t need to confiscate property in order to control it. Controlling property owners accomplishes the same thing and much more besides.

    I just started reading a book called The Cleanest Race: How North Koreans See Themselves and Why It Matters (it seemed timely). Among other things, it argues that despite having been a Soviet client state the Marxism-Leninism never took root, the regime never bought into class consciousness and the international worker’s struggle, and instead their ideology is based on nationalism and the alleged racial purity and superiority of the Korean people. Thus, North Korea is better understood as a fascist state rather than one of the few surviving holdovers from Marxism.

    All of which seems plausible once you realize that fascism and Marxism are close cousins rather than polar opposites.

    It would be wise for the Trump administration to pick up on that and pound that point home. Even prefacing any mention of North Korea as the “fascist state of North Korea”.

    • #19
  20. Judithann Campbell Member
    Judithann Campbell
    @

    I am watching the Fox News coverage; one guy on Fox just stated that white nationalists should not have a voice or a platform. A second commentator stated that “hate speech” is not protected by the First Amendment.

    I agree that white nationalists are evil, vile people, but I thought that in America everyone had the right to free speech. I have heard that the white nationalists showed up with weapons, in which case, the police should have been informed and the matter left to them. The people who showed up to fight the white nationalists have one goal in mind: to shut down free speech. It appears that they are succeeding.

    • #20
  21. Joseph Stanko Coolidge
    Joseph Stanko
    @JosephStanko

    Judithann Campbell (View Comment):
    I agree that white nationalists are evil, vile people, but I thought that in America everyone had the right to free speech.

    Amen.  If you silence them, you make them into martyrs, whereas if you let them speak, everyone will get to hear what fools they are.

    • #21
  22. billy Inactive
    billy
    @billy

    Is opposing the eradication of any historic marker of the Confederacy the exact equivalent of white supremacy?

     

    • #22
  23. Addiction Is A Choice Member
    Addiction Is A Choice
    @AddictionIsAChoice

    Oh, I don’t know, this could be Trump’s “Sister Souljah Moment” …..

    • #23
  24. EJHill Podcaster
    EJHill
    @EJHill

    billy: Is opposing the eradication of any historic marker of the Confederacy the exact equivalent of white supremacy?

    If you allow the left to define you, yes.

    • #24
  25. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    Joseph Stanko (View Comment):

    Richard Fulmer (View Comment):

    Columbo (View Comment):
    And … that the extremism of “national socialism” is not of the “right”. It is still a “socialism” (i.e. dictatorship), that just happens to use some effective strategies of nationalism to take initial control of one’s country and subsequently subvert its entire constitutional foundation. That is not “of the right”.

    True. I fell into the “left/right” word trap. Nazism and Socialism are both collectivist, anti-market, anti-freedom philosophies. Mussolini, Fascism’s founder, was a socialist who realized that the state doesn’t need to confiscate property in order to control it. Controlling property owners accomplishes the same thing and much more besides.

    I just started reading a book called The Cleanest Race: How North Koreans See Themselves and Why It Matters (it seemed timely). Among other things, it argues that despite having been a Soviet client state the Marxism-Leninism never took root, the regime never bought into class consciousness and the international worker’s struggle, and instead their ideology is based on nationalism and the alleged racial purity and superiority of the Korean people. Thus, North Korea is better understood as a fascist state rather than one of the few surviving holdovers from Marxism.

    All of which seems plausible once you realize that fascism and Marxism are close cousins rather than polar opposites.

     

    Closer than you think.

    • #25
  26. Bob W Member
    Bob W
    @WBob

    Joseph Stanko (View Comment):

    Judithann Campbell (View Comment):
    I agree that white nationalists are evil, vile people, but I thought that in America everyone had the right to free speech.

    Amen. If you silence them, you make them into martyrs, whereas if you let them speak, everyone will get to hear what fools they are.

    Absolutely right. If the counter protesters had ignored them, no one would have been injured or killed today. It’s safe to say that almost no one there on either side was motivated by anything good.

    • #26
  27. Charles Mark Member
    Charles Mark
    @CharlesMark

    These Neo-Nazis are absolute scum and should be condemned without reservation by all Conservatives. The fact that their opponents are also scummy is neither here nor there. Let the left explain them. Failing to put clear distance between the GOP and the White Supremacists is a losing strategy and clutching at free speech straws is pathetic.

    • #27
  28. Salvatore Padula Inactive
    Salvatore Padula
    @SalvatorePadula

    So incredibly disappointing to see that the knee-jerk reaction of some is to blame today’s events on the awfulness of the left  or to point out the historic links between National Socialism and the progressive left.  The left is indeed awful,  but the jackass neo Nazis responsible for today’s tragedy don’t identify as being part of the left. They are proudly alt right.  To deny this is no less dishonest  as  saying ISIS and Al Qaeda have nothing to do with Islam. We expect non-jihadi Muslims to condemn militant Islamists unequivocally.  We need to hold ourselves to the same standards.

    • #28
  29. Arahant Member
    Arahant
    @Arahant

    Salvatore Padula (View Comment):
    They are proudly alt right. To deny this is no less dishonest as saying ISIS and Al Qaeda have nothing to do with Islam.

    But is the alt-right of the right? Or is it of the right as defined by the left? And are the two just nonsense terms that mean little in today’s America where we have multi-dimensional politics?

    • #29
  30. Charles Mark Member
    Charles Mark
    @CharlesMark

    Arahant (View Comment):

    Salvatore Padula (View Comment):
    They are proudly alt right. To deny this is no less dishonest as saying ISIS and Al Qaeda have nothing to do with Islam.

    But is the alt-right of the right? Or is it of the right as defined by the left? And are the two just nonsense terms that mean little in today’s America where we have multi-dimensional politics?

    Sometimes perception is the most important issue.

    • #30
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