Charlottesville Violence Not Our Fight

 

This weekend’s violence at the University of Virginia’s campus in Charlottesville, VA, was a clash between tribes. Inevitably, the opposing factions tried to prove their superiority by force, which is, fundamentally, the only argument that can be made for the supremacy of one tribe over another.

The fight was between two socialist factions – socialist because collectivism is the pathology of socialism, whether the national socialism of the right or the Marxist socialism of the left. Neither conservatives nor libertarians have a dog in this fight.

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  1. billy Inactive
    billy
    @billy

    Umbra Fractus (View Comment):

    billy (View Comment):
    Is opposing the eradication of any historic marker of the Confederacy the exact equivalent of white supremacy?

    I see where you’re coming from here, and I had the same thought when I read about it, but it doesn’t apply in this case. Apparently David Duke, Richard Spencer, and the actual KKK were involved this time.

    That said, Antifa were on the other side, and if you asked me to guess who threw the first punch, I’d say it’s pretty obvious.

    I hadn’t read much about this story, which is why I posed my post as a question.

    @umbrafractus

    • #61
  2. J. D. Fitzpatrick Member
    J. D. Fitzpatrick
    @JDFitzpatrick

    Salvatore Padula (View Comment):

    Judithann Campbell (View Comment):
    “I may disagree with what a man says, but I will defend to the death his right to say it”. I can’t remember which Founding Father said that,

    It was actually a quote misattributed to Voltaire by one of his early biographers. Not arguing with your point, but a pedant’s gotta pedant.

    I like pedant as a verb. Do we change the emphasis, as with record (n) and record (v)? I like the sound of “A pedant’s gotta pedant.” 

    • #62
  3. Randy Webster Member
    Randy Webster
    @RandyWebster

    Judithann Campbell (View Comment):

    Charles Mark (View Comment):
    These Neo-Nazis are absolute scum and should be condemned without reservation by all Conservatives. The fact that their opponents are also scummy is neither here nor there. Let the left explain them. Failing to put clear distance between the GOP and the White Supremacists is a losing strategy and clutching at free speech straws is pathetic.

    I have condemned the neo nazis without reservation; I am not “clutching at free speech straws”. I am defending the Constitution of the United States, which gives everyone the right to free speech, including people who should be condemned without reservation. The people who showed up today to fight with the white supremacists are the same people who who burning things down at Berkeley and attacking people when Charles Murray was trying to speak. They should also be condemned without reservation.

    “I may disagree with what a man says, but I will defend to the death his right to say it”. I can’t remember which Founding Father said that, but it’s what I believe, and for you to accuse me of “clutching at free speech straws” is pathetic. If you are only willing to defend the speech of people you agree with, then you don’t really believe in free speech.

    Our junior high newspaper was called the “The Voltairian.”  That expression was on it’s masthead.  Are you trying to say I was lied to all those years ago?

    • #63
  4. Judithann Campbell Member
    Judithann Campbell
    @

    Randy Webster (View Comment):
    Our junior high newspaper was called the “The Voltarian.” That expression was on it’s masthead. Are you trying to say I was lied to all those years ago?

    Hello, no, am not trying to say anything, just displaying my own ignorance; in earlier comments on this thread, Salvatore Padula says that the quote was incorrectly attributed to Voltaire by one of his biographers, so apparently it’s not clear who created that brilliant quote, but I wasn’t even on the right planet in thinking it was one of the Founding Fathers. I could have and should have googled it before posting the comment, but oh well :)

    • #64
  5. Charles Mark Member
    Charles Mark
    @CharlesMark

    Judithann Campbell (View Comment

    Why are you giving leftists a pass on this? Are you seriously suggesting that it is sometimes ok for liberals to start riots, if the people they are rioting against are really despicable?

    Where did I give leftists a pass? The “counter-protestors” went there to cause trouble. They hold views and use tactics which I find repellent. But they are associated with the Democrats and are a problem for that Party just as the perceived association between the Neo-Nazis and the Republican Party is a problem for the GOP. There is a political element to all this. The fact is that the GOP/ Trump can will be slaughtered if they don’t distance themselves sufficiently. Which will be to the benefit of the Democrats and their Antifa buddies.

    • #65
  6. Charles Mark Member
    Charles Mark
    @CharlesMark

    Judithann Campbell (View Comment):

    Charles Mark (View Comment):
    I will further exercise my right to say if you see a White Supremacist, run a mile. And if you don’t, I reserve my free-speech right to berate and condemn you.

    Good to know that you believe in your own right to free speech; if only you believed in it for others too.

    I have said that I believe in the right of Neo Nazi scum to protest and in the right of others to defend that right. You seem to say that because the defender of Neo Nazi scum is exercising that defender’s right to free speech that is the end of the matter and others who are appalled by the Neo Nazi scum and their defenders should keep their opinions to themselves. That’s a pretty selective interpretation of the right to free speech

     

    • #66
  7. lowtech redneck Coolidge
    lowtech redneck
    @lowtech redneck

    Gumby Mark (View Comment):

    Jimmy Carter (View Comment):

    Gumby Mark (View Comment):
    Ted Cruz statement:

    “I urge the Department of Justice to immediately investigate and prosecute this grotesque act of domestic terrorism.”

    Oh, please.Where was Cruz’s statement against BLM? They’re “hatred, “racist,” and “mar Our great Nation with bloodshed.” They’re also “repulsive” and “evil.” And We all have a “moral obligation to speak out against the lies,bigotry, and anti-Semitism, and hatred that They propagate.” Plus, those “bigots want to tear Our Country apart,” too.

    Actually, Cruz accused BLM of celebrating the murder of police officers. According to the WaPo, Cruz was leading the GOP backlash to BLM (0f course, WaPo thought this was a bad thing).

    I’m with Cruz. I don’t like Nazi, the KKK, or white supremacists. Seems like an easy call to me.

    Cruz was also the only Presidential candidate to speak out against the Nazification of Southern heritage in the wake of the Charleston massacre.  I like Trump’s statements better in this instance, but calling Cruz weak on BLM is ridiculous.

    • #67
  8. lowtech redneck Coolidge
    lowtech redneck
    @lowtech redneck

    Umbra Fractus (View Comment):

    billy (View Comment):
    Is opposing the eradication of any historic marker of the Confederacy the exact equivalent of white supremacy?

    I see where you’re coming from here, and I had the same thought when I read about it, but it doesn’t apply in this case. Apparently David Duke, Richard Spencer, and the actual KKK were involved this time.

    That said, Antifa were on the other side, and if you asked me to guess who threw the first punch, I’d say it’s pretty obvious.

    True, but the GOPe will nonetheless use this as an excuse to start openly supporting the removal of Confederate heritage monuments.  Rich Lowry at National Review has already started:

    “—I’ve been skeptical of the rush to pull up Confederate monuments, and Robert E. Lee—the focus in Charlottesville—is not Nathan Bedford Forrest. But if the monuments are going to become rallying points for neo-Nazis, maybe they really do need to go.”

     

    • #68
  9. The Whether Man Inactive
    The Whether Man
    @TheWhetherMan

    Charles Mark (View Comment):

    Judithann Campbell (View Comment

    Why are you giving leftists a pass on this? Are you seriously suggesting that it is sometimes ok for liberals to start riots, if the people they are rioting against are really despicable?

    Where did I give leftists a pass? The “counter-protestors” went there to cause trouble. They hold views and use tactics which I find repellent. But they are associated with the Democrats and are a problem for that Party just as the perceived association between the Neo-Nazis and the Republican Party is a problem for the GOP. There is a political element to all this. The fact is that the GOP/ Trump can will be slaughtered if they don’t distance themselves sufficiently. Which will be to the benefit of the Democrats and their Antifa buddies.

    Trump and the GOP will be slaughtered on this regardless, but I agreee that they should distance themselves from and condemn the alt-right, white supremacists, neo-Nazis, etc. in the strongest possible terms.

    We know that the election of Trump empowered these people, because they say that they feel empowered by the election of Trump. That means Trump needs to lead the charge against them. I was glad to hear him strongly condemn them in his speech, and I think he needs to keep at it (and stay on script while he does it).

    • #69
  10. Guruforhire Inactive
    Guruforhire
    @Guruforhire

    Judithann Campbell (View Comment):
    Why are you giving leftists a pass on this? Are you seriously suggesting that it is sometimes ok for liberals to start riots, if the people they are rioting against are really despicable?

    Careful, you might start saying that people with wrong opinions also have a right to self defense as well.

    • #70
  11. Guruforhire Inactive
    Guruforhire
    @Guruforhire

    Charles Mark (View Comment):
    ut they are associated with the Democrats and are a problem for that Party just as the perceived association between the Neo-Nazis and the Republican Party is a problem for the GOP

    Untrue.  If that were true the narrative of this rally would be about violent extremists attacking a peaceful rally with the tacit support of the Governor of the State of Virginia, and local law enforcement.

    Political extremism and violence isn’t a problem for the left, because they either approve of it, or the right doesn’t make it painful for them.

    The failure of the mainstream right to make the left bleed on these issues is (one of the reasons) why the alt-right is growing.

    I would feel differently if BLM were peacefully assembling in the park and reading their slam poetry, and a bunch of Nazis descended on them and started beating them up too.

    • #71
  12. Kozak Member
    Kozak
    @Kozak

    billy (View Comment):
    Is opposing the eradication of any historic marker of the Confederacy the exact equivalent of white supremacy?

    I live in a coastal city in NC.   In the part of town where my wife plays tennis at her country club, the streets are

    Longstreet

    Lee

    Hill

    Jackson

    Stuart

    and I kid you not

    Bedford Forrest

    • #72
  13. Kozak Member
    Kozak
    @Kozak

    Gumby Mark (View Comment):
    Can we settle on self-proclaimed white supremacists?

    Why are we  letting the Left define the terms?

    All the Alt Right are white supremacists?

    You want to throw people like John Derbyshire,  Mike Cernovich, Stefan Mollieuneux, Voxday  etc etc into that basket?

     

    • #73
  14. Midget Faded Rattlesnake Contributor
    Midget Faded Rattlesnake
    @Midge

    Kozak (View Comment):

    Gumby Mark (View Comment):
    Can we settle on self-proclaimed white supremacists?

    Why are we letting the Left define the terms?

    All the Alt Right are white supremacists?

    You want to throw people like John Derbyshire, Mike Cernovich, Stefan Mollieuneux, Voxday etc etc into that basket?

    With a guy like VoxDay specifically, people don’t have to be Antifa to get the impression he’s done quite a bit lately to throw himself in that basket. When VoxDay tries to draw distinctions like,

    Alt-White has a romantic view of National Socialism. Alt-West regards it as a suicidally stupid but semiotically useful form of German nationalism.

    what a lot of perfectly ordinary people get out of that might not be that VoxDay sincerely believes that “Alt-West” is distinct from “Alt-White”, but that VoxDay considers Naziism “semiotically useful”. When a guy tells the world Nazi bull puckery is useful rather than useless, is it wrong for ordinary people to wonder whether that’s getting a little too close to actually allying with white supremacists, neo-nazis, and others who seem to think the Nazis had the right idea?

    To people not already intimately engaged with the alt-right, an insider’s careful taxonomizing of the alt-right is much harder to follow than the provocative nuggets asserting stuff like racist, fascist thugs still serve a “semiotically useful” purpose from his perspective.

    • #74
  15. Freesmith Inactive
    Freesmith
    @Freesmith

    DocJay (View Comment):
    Damn straight. Forget the lot of them.

    If a few thousand nazi loonies is the best the white hate groups can get I am optimistic that their ilk will die off. The hate whitey groups gathered much strength under Obama’s encouragement of racial hatred disguised as social justice. They will be a much larger voice and I fear them far more than the nazi loonies.

    What are you going to do about them? They’re prepared to use force and intimidation. During the Obama years and in many jurisdictions around the country they had and still have the tacit support of the political power structure and law enforcement.

    And please don’t ask a question in return – Answer the question.

    • #75
  16. Full Size Tabby Member
    Full Size Tabby
    @FullSizeTabby

    lowtech redneck (View Comment):

    Umbra Fractus (View Comment):

    billy (View Comment):
    Is opposing the eradication of any historic marker of the Confederacy the exact equivalent of white supremacy?

    I see where you’re coming from here, and I had the same thought when I read about it, but it doesn’t apply in this case. Apparently David Duke, Richard Spencer, and the actual KKK were involved this time.

    That said, Antifa were on the other side, and if you asked me to guess who threw the first punch, I’d say it’s pretty obvious.

    True, but the GOPe will nonetheless use this as an excuse to start openly supporting the removal of Confederate heritage monuments. Rich Lowry at National Review has already started:

    “—I’ve been skeptical of the rush to pull up Confederate monuments, and Robert E. Lee—the focus in Charlottesville—is not Nathan Bedford Forrest. But if the monuments are going to become rallying points for neo-Nazis, maybe they really do need to go.”

    The problem with the position that Lowry takes is that it wasn’t the monuments that have been rallying points, it is the removal of the monuments that has generated the rallies. That would suggest that Lowry’s proposal would make the problem worse, not better.

    • #76
  17. Judithann Campbell Member
    Judithann Campbell
    @

    Charles Mark (View Comment):
    The fact is that the GOP/ Trump can will be slaughtered if they don’t distance themselves sufficiently.

    How have we not distanced ourselves sufficiently? You seem to be saying that unless we take away the free speech rights of neo nazis, or look the other way when said rights are violated, that we are not distancing ourselves sufficiently.

    • #77
  18. Judithann Campbell Member
    Judithann Campbell
    @

    Charles Mark (View Comment):
    I have said that I believe in the right of Neo Nazi scum to protest and in the right of others to defend that right. You seem to say that because the defender of Neo Nazi scum is exercising that defender’s right to free speech that is the end of the matter and others who are appalled by the Neo Nazi scum and their defenders should keep their opinions to themselves. That’s a pretty selective interpretation of the right to free speech

    In my first comment, I pointed out that at least two people who appeared on Fox News were using these riots as a call to take all free speech rights away from Neo Nazis; one of them said that Neo Nazis should have no voice; the other one said that “hate speech” is not protected by the First Amendment. When people want to silence those they disagree with, that is an attack on the Constitution, and it doesn’t matter how despicable the people they disagree with are. I see this as a much bigger problem than white nationalism; you, obviously, don’t.

    I don’t know how much you actually know about America; maybe you have been led to believe that there is a neo nazi here under every rock and behind every tree, but that is not the case. Neo nazis are a very tiny group of people, and they are losing numbers all the time. To act as if they are some kind of huge threat is dishonest; those who want to silence them are just getting their nose into the tent so that they can silence others. Sorry if you can’t see this.

    • #78
  19. TempTime Member
    TempTime
    @TempTime

    Guruforhire (View Comment):
    I’m going to wait and see.

    We’ve had one Bernie brother shoot up a baseball game

    We’ve had another attack some Muslim women

    One antifa kid shot another antifa kid because he thought he was a white supremacist.

    I figure it will take 2 days before I will know what it is I should be condemning.

    Most intelligent comment I’ve read on this topic in two days.  People have been putting on the other team’s uniform and behaving badly for a very long time.  Sadly, it is a tactic of the commie/progs that continues to work.  Who knows what really was going on or why?  Perhaps only the ones who planned it.   We should know by now it takes 48 to 72 hours to get any information remotely close to the whole truth from any sources these days about almost anything.

    Some other questions I have:  How does anyone know in advance that these events are even going to occur?  Who did the planning, coordinated the people, dealt with the logistics, paid the bills, provided the compensation?   What was the purpose?  Why now?   Why there?  Why was it “advertised”/ promoted so heavily? and, by whom?   I don’t believe any of it went down the way it looks to have happened —  too produced to be authentic.   Press, cameras, everyone was set-up and prepared at just the right spot, at just the right moments, etc., etc. ready to roll as soon as the director shouted Action!  Although, it may have gone off script once it got going, or not.  Who knows?  Maybe it all happened just as hoped.   The city, the county, and the state knew it was going to be “produced” and agreed to allowed this event to happen.   I would like to know why.  Who, so far, is gaining the most from this tragic nonsense?

     

    • #79
  20. Randy Webster Member
    Randy Webster
    @RandyWebster

    Three people died?

    • #80
  21. Gumby Mark Coolidge
    Gumby Mark
    @GumbyMark

    Kozak (View Comment):

    Gumby Mark (View Comment):
    Can we settle on self-proclaimed white supremacists?

    Why are we letting the Left define the terms?

    All the Alt Right are white supremacists?

    You want to throw people like John Derbyshire, Mike Cernovich, Stefan Mollieuneux, Voxday etc etc into that basket?

    Actually, I suggested that because those who organized the march called themselves that. I was referring specifically to the march.

    • #81
  22. lowtech redneck Coolidge
    lowtech redneck
    @lowtech redneck

    Randy Webster (View Comment):
    Three people died?

    One person from the car attack, and two police officers whose helicopter crashed in an apparent accident.

    • #82
  23. Randy Webster Member
    Randy Webster
    @RandyWebster

    Oh, my.

    • #83
  24. Charles Mark Member
    Charles Mark
    @CharlesMark

    Judithann Campbell (View Comment):

    Charles Mark (View Comment):
    I have said that I believe in the right of Neo Nazi scum to protest and in the right of others to defend that right. You seem to say that because the defender of Neo Nazi scum is exercising that defender’s right to free speech that is the end of the matter and others who are appalled by the Neo Nazi scum and their defenders should keep their opinions to themselves. That’s a pretty selective interpretation of the right to free speech

    In my first comment, I pointed out that at least two people who appeared on Fox News were using these riots as a call to take all free speech rights away from Neo Nazis; one of them said that Neo Nazis should have no voice; the other one said that “hate speech” is not protected by the First Amendment. When people want to silence those they disagree with, that is an attack on the Constitution, and it doesn’t matter how despicable the people they disagree with are. I see this as a much bigger problem than white nationalism; you, obviously, don’t.

    I don’t know how much you actually know about America; maybe you have been led to believe that there is a neo nazi here under every rock and behind every tree, but that is not the case. Neo nazis are a very tiny group of people, and they are losing numbers all the time. To act as if they are some kind of huge threat is dishonest; those who want to silence them are just getting their nose into the tent so that they can silence others. Sorry if you can’t see this.

    Hi Judithann, Please read my comments and tell me where I have tried to silence anyone or advocated that anyone be silenced?

    I’m not going to respond to your personal comments other than to say that I have been a member here for seven years now and I follow American politics very closely. I believe that I have a pretty good understanding of those politics.

    Oh, and I agree that the term “hate speech” is grossly abused by the left to shut down arguments they don’t like or can’t handle.

     

     

     

    • #84
  25. Judithann Campbell Member
    Judithann Campbell
    @

    Charles Mark (View Comment):
    Hi Judithann, Please read my comments and tell me where I have tried to silence anyone or advocated that anyone be silenced?

     

    When I brought up the people who are using this tragedy as an excuse to try to take away free speech rights, you accused me of “clutching at free speech straws”. You have not explicitly advocated that anyone be silenced, but you remain silent wile others do, and you attack people like me who are trying to protect free speech; you have also suggested that people like me have not denounced neo nazism sufficiently, though you have given no details about that, even though I asked you to. You seem to believe that neo nazism is a huge problem in America that is not sufficiently denounced, which leads me to believe that you don’t understand America all that well.

    I would encourage you to read this post by @johnkluge; he articulates this much better than I do, and he is saying everything that I have been trying to say

    • #85
  26. Salvatore Padula Inactive
    Salvatore Padula
    @SalvatorePadula

    Kozak (View Comment):

    Gumby Mark (View Comment):
    Can we settle on self-proclaimed white supremacists?

    Why are we letting the Left define the terms?

    All the Alt Right are white supremacists?

    You want to throw people like John Derbyshire, Mike Cernovich, Stefan Mollieuneux, Voxday etc etc into that basket?

    I confess being unfamiliar with some of these names, but John Derbyshire was a speaker at a white nationalist convention last month and Mike Cernovich  recently alleged the HR McMaster is being controlled by the Rothchilds,  so I’m not sure I’d rule it out.

    • #86
  27. Randy Webster Member
    Randy Webster
    @RandyWebster

    I’m sorry to see John Derbyshire go around the bend, if indeed he has.  He was always entertaining.

    • #87
  28. Salvatore Padula Inactive
    Salvatore Padula
    @SalvatorePadula

    Randy Webster (View Comment):
    I’m sorry to see John Derbyshire go around the bend, if indeed he has. He was always entertaining.

    Yup.

    • #88
  29. The Whether Man Inactive
    The Whether Man
    @TheWhetherMan

    Randy Webster (View Comment):
    I’m sorry to see John Derbyshire go around the bend, if indeed he has. He was always entertaining.

    I feel like he went at least five years ago, after his infamous essay and firing from NRO. Admittedly, I have a very low opinion of VDARE and their ilk.

     

    • #89
  30. Midget Faded Rattlesnake Contributor
    Midget Faded Rattlesnake
    @Midge

    Salvatore Padula (View Comment):
    I confess being unfamiliar with some of these names, but John Derbyshire was a speaker at a white nationalist convention last month and Mike Cernovich recently alleged the HR McMaster is being controlled by the Rothchilds, so I’m not sure I’d rule it out.

    To be fair to Cerno, I get the impression he’s speculated favorably on so many conspiracy theories at this point that his clan is more Infowars than anything else. He might, quite colorblindly, just consider paranoia an equal-opportunity employer.

    • #90
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