What Makes a SoCon?

 

A few days ago, several Ricochetti on the member side were kicking around an idea for a podcast featuring social conservatives. (Want to read those in-house conversations? You need to be a member.) It was a good discussion and one that’s been mirrored behind the scenes at the site (we take your suggestions seriously).

It brought an interesting question to mind, however. What makes someone a SoCon? I’ve never used the label in reference to myself because I’m generally fine with gay marriage as a policy matter (though I’m totally opposed to the means by which it’s been gaining ground) and I know that’s usually a litmus test. That said, I’m also pro-life, firmly in favor of the various Religious Freedom Restoration Acts, anti-assisted suicide, totally opposed to the contraception mandate, deeply troubled by the pervasive breakdown of the family, and generally convinced that both the law and the culture are developing an ominously antagonistic posture towards people of faith. So wouldn’t it be sort of weird to say I’m not a social conservative?

You tell me. I’m genuinely curious as to what our readers think the term means, and what the essentials of the SoCon creed are.

Oh, one other thing — if this turns into a 350-comment thread arguing SSM, you will all be sent to your rooms. No dessert.

Published in General, Religion & Philosophy
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  1. Midget Faded Rattlesnake Member
    Midget Faded Rattlesnake
    @Midge

    Mike H:Isn’t it a little pointless to try to rigorously define things like this? I can imagine a SoCon position on a subject, just as I can imagine a Libertarian position on a subject. So it’s on a case-by-case basis for most things. If you come down on the SoCon side a supermajority (say ~80%) of the time, I think it’s fair to use the moniker in general.

    On the other hand, SoCons have a certain feel about them. So, even if Troy fits my earlier definition, he doesn’t seem like a SoCon.

    Ah, so SoCons are people who don’t own giraffe-print pajamas.

    • #31
  2. DocJay Inactive
    DocJay
    @DocJay
    • #32
  3. Tom Meyer Member
    Tom Meyer
    @tommeyer

    This is a little glib, but one way I’ve put it is that a SoCon sees the Sexual Revolution as the defining horror of the 1960s, while the libertarian points to the Great Society.

    Obviously, one can maintain that both were harmful, but I think asking one to choose between them is a good heuristic.

    • #33
  4. user_653084 Inactive
    user_653084
    @SalvatorePadula

    That’s quite insightful Tom.

    • #34
  5. Lucy Pevensie Inactive
    Lucy Pevensie
    @LucyPevensie

    I think the definition of a social conservative is one who believes that human institutions are fragile, that attempts to change them are dangerous, and that, as Chesterton said,

    Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who merely happen to be walking about. All democrats object to men being disqualified by the accident of birth; tradition objects to their being disqualified by the accident of death. Democracy tells us not to neglect a good man’s opinion, even if he is our groom; tradition asks us not to neglect a good man’s opinion, even if he is our father.

    A SoCon also usually believes that “The Naked Public Square” as described by Neuhaus is a modern innovation, is inconsistent with the nation’s founding principles, and threatens our future.  As Mary Ann Glendon describes Neuhaus’s original thesis:

     our growing tendency to rule religiously grounded moral viewpoints out of bounds in public life not only does injustice to what he . . . refers to as America’s “incorrigibly religious” citizenry, but also saps the cultural foundations of our republican form of government.

    This has nothing to do with legislating a particular religious point of view, and everything to do with allowing equal time and equal voice to those with religious points of view, instead of giving preference to the purely secular.

    • #35
  6. Lucy Pevensie Inactive
    Lucy Pevensie
    @LucyPevensie

    Tom Meyer, Ed.:This is a little glib, but one way I’ve put it is that a SoCon sees the Sexual Revolution as the defining horror of the 1960s, while the libertarian points to the Great Society.

    Obviously, one can maintain that both were harmful, but I think asking one to choose between them is a good heuristic.

    Hmm.  And so if you can’t choose, you’re neither?  They’re really of a piece, aren’t they?  The sexual revolution in its most extreme form, the breakdown of the family, arises because the Great Society subsidizes unwed parenting.

    • #36
  7. Midget Faded Rattlesnake Member
    Midget Faded Rattlesnake
    @Midge

    Lucy Pevensie:

    Tom Meyer, Ed.:This is a little glib, but one way I’ve put it is that a SoCon sees the Sexual Revolution as the defining horror of the 1960s, while the libertarian points to the Great Society.

    Obviously, one can maintain that both were harmful, but I think asking one to choose between them is a good heuristic.

    Hmm. And so if you can’t choose, you’re neither? They’re really of a piece, aren’t they? The sexual revolution in its most extreme form, the breakdown of the family, arises because the Great Society subsidizes unwed parenting.

    The way you phrase it makes it sound like the Great Society wins the horrible race by a nose.

    • #37
  8. Ricochet Member
    Ricochet
    @

    Social Conservative is such a sham label.  You either are for our system of government and the ideal that the chaotic organization of society through the freedom of People is the best form of government for a species that is not perfect or you don’t.  The things you have listed are nothing more than the expectation that government should encourage the flourishing of life and not destroy the positive aspects of society passed to us by our ancestors.  Any changes to society should be slow and prudent, done with much thought and deliberation and not done out of impetuousness for the purposes of causing upheaval to be taken advantage of by opportunistic politicians.  That is called being Lockean or Burkean.  It is called being an American.

    • #38
  9. The King Prawn Inactive
    The King Prawn
    @TheKingPrawn

    A SoCon (or VirtueCon) is one who believes limited government is the best form of government, but that it is possible only when people are individually (and individually compelled to be) virtuous enough to govern themselves. Government cannot (and should not even try) to enforce the required virtues or morality but rather should act as a bulwark for individual liberty and the social (not governmental) institutions in which individuals can learn morality and virtue. We believe each individual inherently capable (even those thugs in Baltimore) of virtue and morality, but we do not believe them to inherently possess these character traits. They are learned/discovered in families, faith traditions, social associations, and the myriad little platoons of individuals within the society.

    • #39
  10. Midget Faded Rattlesnake Member
    Midget Faded Rattlesnake
    @Midge

    Lucy Pevensie:

    …or that those of you who aren’t SoCons would refrain from commenting, and let the SoCons define themselves.

    What if you don’t know whether you’re a SoCon or not?

    • #40
  11. user_653084 Inactive
    user_653084
    @SalvatorePadula

    Robert: “It is called being an American.”

    And here I’ve been thinking I was an American. Well, you learn something new every day.

    • #41
  12. Ricochet Member
    Ricochet
    @

    Tom Meyer, Ed.:This is a little glib, but one way I’ve put it is that a SoCon sees the Sexual Revolution as the defining horror of the 1960s, while the libertarian points to the Great Society.

    Obviously, one can maintain that both were harmful, but I think asking one to choose between them is a good heuristic.

    I like that attempt but I think that is still lacking depth.  How could one not be related to the other?  Would the Great Society lasted as long as it had if there had not been the idea that people can have sex whenever, wherever and with whom ever?  Is the notion that government can care for you to the point where you never have to work not a factor in people having more time on their hands to fill with wanton sex?  This is why Libertarians AND So Cons are sham labels and ways of thinking.  Each leaves out the utter complexity of how Leftist ideologies take over and control a society.

    • #42
  13. Ricochet Member
    Ricochet
    @

    Salvatore Padula:Robert: “It is called being an American.”

    And here I’ve been thinking I was an American. Well, you learn something new every day.

    Ah don’t take that the wrong way.  Trust me I think there are far more Americans here on Ricochet than not.

    • #43
  14. Aaron Miller Inactive
    Aaron Miller
    @AaronMiller

    Tom, arguing that the government shouldn’t license or incentivize marriage is like arguing for a national sales tax to replace the national income tax. Even if it’s a good idea, I expect you will understand if many people believe that is extremely unlikely to get politically approved and so they focus on milder changes from the current status quo.

    • #44
  15. Ed G. Member
    Ed G.
    @EdG

    It’s complicated, as is libertarianism. As is progressivism, once we get down to it.

    I’d say some charactreistics of socons are positive (I’m for x) and others are negative (I’m against y). Here are some thoughts:

    • “Put another way, SoCons tend to believe that government has a legitimate function — perhaps, a duty — in maintaining social public goods.” (I cribbed this from Tom. I think it describes an aspect well)
    • ““The Naked Public Square” as described by Neuhaus is a modern innovation, is inconsistent with the nation’s founding principles, and threatens our future.” (I cribbed this from Lucy because I think it, too, well describes an aspect – perhaps with some overlap of Tom’s comment)
    • All legislation is legislation of morality. The primary difference with libertarians on this score is only in where the line of acceptable legislation is drawn. That’s in even greater contrast with progressives who have no hesitation to first destroy any existing morality and replace it with the universal progressive vision.
    • Sometimes public standards need to be addressed via government. Preferably at the most local level possible.
    • #45
  16. Ed G. Member
    Ed G.
    @EdG
    • Community/society has interests as an entity apart from the aggregate of the individual interests in that community/society.
    • The harm principle can be useful, but not if restricted to direct and immediate harm.
    • Ultimately, consent of the governed through a democratic type process is the only practical arbiter of right and justice.
    • I agree that the “social issues” are largely discrete issues and mostly a reaction to the progressive blitzkrieg through the culture imposing viewpoints inorganically. I’d still be a socon, I think, and anti-SSM, pro life, anti prostitution, etc. even if these things were the result of votes.
    • #46
  17. EJHill Podcaster
    EJHill
    @EJHill

    Neo-Con, So-Con, Emoti-Con?

    Emoticon

    • #47
  18. Lucy Pevensie Inactive
    Lucy Pevensie
    @LucyPevensie

    Midget Faded Rattlesnake:

    Lucy Pevensie:

    …or that those of you who aren’t SoCons would refrain from commenting, and let the SoCons define themselves.

    What if you don’t know whether you’re a SoCon or not?

    If you think you might be, I suspect by the standards of Ricochet that you are.

    • #48
  19. Jason Rudert Inactive
    Jason Rudert
    @JasonRudert

    Okay, SoCons. We have heard the What. Let’s hear the How.

    How do you get people to stay married?
    To not use drugs/alcohol?
    To not use pornography?
    To not be slutty?
    To not abort their children?
    To not cheat in their wives?
    To not be profligate?

    What role should the State play in these issues ?

    • #49
  20. Ed G. Member
    Ed G.
    @EdG

    Aaron Miller:Tom, arguing that the government shouldn’t license or incentivize marriage is like arguing for a national sales tax to replace the IRS. ….

    Not to mention that an IRS will still be necessary to administer the sales tax system. In other words, this is a necessary and legitimate tool of society.

    • #50
  21. Lucy Pevensie Inactive
    Lucy Pevensie
    @LucyPevensie

    DocJay:

    DocJay, what happened to your comment? I wanted to come back and answer it, but it’s gone.

    I think you were standing up for your statement that a SoCon thinks Morality>Liberty  or however you put it. I wanted to reply that you really can’t have morality without liberty. Morality has to be freely chosen to be moral.

    • #51
  22. Ed G. Member
    Ed G.
    @EdG

    Jason Rudert:Okay, SoCons. We have heard the What. Let’s hear the How.

    How do you get people to stay married? To not use drugs/alcohol? To not use pornography? To not be slutty? To not abort their children? To not cheat in their wives? To not be profligate?

    What role should the State play in these issues ?

    It isn’t that straightforward, Jason. However, I recognize that “the state” sometimes can play a role. I’d think most of us favor that role being played locally where it’s most subject to the natural limits of government: faction, competition, ease of amendment, proximity to the issue, ease of voting with the feet, ease of armed resistance (if it ever legitimately comes down to it).

    • #52
  23. Tom Meyer Member
    Tom Meyer
    @tommeyer

    Aaron Miller:Tom, arguing that the government shouldn’t license or incentivize marriage is like arguing for a national sales tax to replace the IRS. Even if it’s a good idea, I expect you will understand if many people believe that is extremely unlikely to get politically approved and so they focus on milder changes from the current status quo.

    We’re not in disagreement on that. I could imagine circumstances where I would push for the abolition of state-sponsored civil marriage, but it’s a low priority and a dozen big things would have to happen first.

    • #53
  24. BThompson Inactive
    BThompson
    @BThompson

    I have no problem claiming that I want to legislate morality. Everyone does. Most of our laws are based on moral judgements and we put the force of law behind those judgements to make sure they are respected. Laws against murder, fraud, theft, assault, respect of private property, laws that protect the helpless particularly child protection laws – these are all based on traditional morality, and I could list many, many others. We legislate morality all the time. To pretend we don’t is incredibly obtuse.

    • #54
  25. Ricochet Member
    Ricochet
    @

    Jason Rudert:Okay, SoCons. We have heard the What. Let’s hear the How.

    How do you get people to stay married? To not use drugs/alcohol? To not use pornography? To not be slutty? To not abort their children? To not cheat in their wives? To not be profligate?

    What role should the State play in these issues ?

    Do away with no fault, easy divorce.

    Won’t happen.

    Won’t happen.

    Put the repercussions of sex back into play.

    Make it illegal and enforce the law when broken.

    Not going to happen.  (Also so wives not cheat on their husbands?)

    Too general a question.  People are going to be profligate, otherwise we wouldn’t need a government.  If men were angels, you know.

    • #55
  26. Ed G. Member
    Ed G.
    @EdG
    • Spontaneous order is exaggerated. Civilization is hard and intentional work.
    • Rational and fair system is about the best to hope for. Perfect outcomes is the folly of progressives; life without fetters is the folly of libertarians. I’m sure non-socons can name the folly of socons, but all I’m coming up with right now is along the lines of “my biggest shortcoming is that I care for people too much” or “sometimes my massive IQ gets in the way of relating to regular people” or some such.
    • #56
  27. Aaron Miller Inactive
    Aaron Miller
    @AaronMiller

    Agreed, BT. Nearly all government actions beyond basic defense and infrastructure at least depend on, if not enact, ethical priorities. Government is inherently representative of one or more dominant worldviews (religions).

    • #57
  28. Ricochet Member
    Ricochet
    @

    Yet another false premise, legislating morality.  The Left does it, Libertarians do it, though from a different perspective (to them the absence of legislated morality is itself moral), and Conservatives do it.  The question is which ideal of morality works best for society.  I think on some level Libertarians and Conservatives have it about right.  There is nothing redeemable about Leftist thinking.

    • #58
  29. Ricochet Member
    Ricochet
    @

    Aaron Miller:Agreed, BT. Nearly all government actions beyond basic defense and infrastructure at least depend on, if not enact, ethical priorities. Government is inherently representative of one or more dominant worldviews (religions).

    Bingo.

    • #59
  30. Jason Rudert Inactive
    Jason Rudert
    @JasonRudert

    Robert McReynolds
    “Do away with no fault, easy divorce.

    Won’t happen.

    Won’t happen.

    Put the repercussions of sex back into play.

    Make it illegal and enforce the law when broken.

    Not going to happen. (Also so wives not cheat on their husbands?)

    Too general a question. People are going to be profligate, otherwise we wouldn’t need a government. If men were angels, you know.”

    You’re 80% libertarian.

    • #60
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