20 Years Ago on March 19…

 

Smoke covers the presidential palace compound during a massive US-led air raid in Baghdad, March 2003…US President George W. Bush ordered air strikes on Baghdad, launching the war for “regime change” and the ousting of Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein.

The war was premised on the belief that Hussein was manufacturing and staging weapons of mass destruction to be used against his enemies. Such a belief is now deemed to have been false, although the length of time between Colin Powell’s February 5 address to the United Nations, in which he laid out the case, and the subsequent Allied invasion – exactly six weeks later – left plenty of time for such efforts to be covered up, dismantled, or moved.

And so, with apparent evidence on both sides to support their respective cases, the conspiracy theorists, and the conspiracy realists, continue to joust over the truth, which is likely never to be fully known.

Regardless, or irregardless as the case may be, I remember the television coverage of those aerial attacks on that day exactly two decades ago. It was awe-inspiring, and thrilling.  The subsequent initial phase of the land war – which lasted just over a month and was spearheaded by the United States with support from the United Kingdom, Australia and Poland, and the following “quagmire” years resulted in the deaths and wounding, both physically and mentally, of tens of thousands of Allied troops, and in consequences that we, and they, still live with today.

As cowards do, Saddam Hussein ran away and hid from reprisals, remaining undiscovered until December 2003, when American soldiers found him, filthy and deranged, hiding in a hole in the ground near ad-Dawr. He was subsequently interrogated, tried, and executed (by the interim Iraqi government) on December 30, 2006. Sic semper tyrannis.

Today, I remember not the meretricious crapweasels of the various governments on all sides who have been – ever since – revising the rather clear history of the war, those who started it, and even, sometimes, those who fought in it. I choose rather to remember the valiant soldiers from all services and all nations who fought, and those who were wounded and who died in the cause of freedom and to keep us safe.

From February 7, 2001–just a month into the first Persian Gulf War:

And from the UK:

Australia:

And Poland:

Thank you.

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  1. Steven Seward Member
    Steven Seward
    @StevenSeward

    Instugator (View Comment):

    Joseph Stanko (View Comment):
    I don’t think that democracy per se was the problem, the big mistake was failing to anticipate the scope and duration of the insurgency.

    The insurgency was caused and abetted by Bremer and the idiots from the Kennedy School of Government.

    See the video for more

    https://encrypted-vtbn0.gstatic.com/video?q=tbn:ANd9GcSvhWSIWauiP-PAxQMsoQokfVwdv0u8cWZeYg

    The Iraqi insurgency was caused…..and….. abetted….. by Paul Bremer?  You’re gonna have to show some pretty radical evidence to convince me of that.

    • #91
  2. Steven Seward Member
    Steven Seward
    @StevenSeward

    Zafar (View Comment):

    namlliT noD (View Comment):

    She: The war was premised on the belief that Hussein was manufacturing and staging weapons of mass destruction to be used against his enemies.

    Actually, the war was premised on:

    Iraq’s oil….was not a factor.

    You are absolutely right!!

    • #92
  3. Steven Seward Member
    Steven Seward
    @StevenSeward

    Zafar (View Comment):

    namlliT noD (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    namlliT noD (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):
    Iraq’s oil….was not a factor.

    Did we get any?

    A little

    https://edition.cnn.com/2013/03/19/opinion/iraq-war-oil-juhasz/index.html

    CNN opinion piece don’t count.

    What percentage of our oil was supplied by Iraq after the war?

    In truth I don’t know Don. But I think the question should be: how much of Iraq’s oil did American companies make a profit from? Whoever bought it.

    If I remember correctly, off the top of my head,  when the newly independent Iraq negotiated its first oil sales, not a drop of oil was sold to American companies.

    • #93
  4. DaveSchmidt Coolidge
    DaveSchmidt
    @DaveSchmidt

    She (View Comment):

    Joseph Stanko (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    namlliT noD (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    namlliT noD (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):
    Iraq’s oil….was not a factor.

    Did we get any?

    A little

    https://edition.cnn.com/2013/03/19/opinion/iraq-war-oil-juhasz/index.html

    CNN opinion piece don’t count.

    What percentage of our oil was supplied by Iraq after the war?

    In truth I don’t know Don. But I think the question should be: how much of Iraq’s oil did American companies make a profit from? Whoever bought it.

    If that was the actual motivation for the invasion, the administration was a heck of a lot dumber than I thought. We could’ve saved a lot of blood and money by invading Venezuela instead.

    And certainly we could have saved a lot of oil, and/or gas.

    And won the permanent gratitude of the Venezuelan people. 

    • #94
  5. She Member
    She
    @She

    Steven Seward (View Comment):
    Bush actually covered most of those points in public speeches listed by Don above.  It is just that the majority public was kind of spooked by the 911 terrorist attack and Weapons of Mass Destruction is all they remember about Bush’s reasons to go after Iraq.  Even in more sedate times, nobody remembers a list of 12 foreign policy talking points.

    I think it’s quite reasonable to state, as a commenter did above, that WMD was the basis upon which Bush and Co. “sold” the war to the majority of the American people and their allies.  We tend to remember WMD as Bush’s reason to go to war with Iraq because that’s what Bush, and Powell, and Cheney, and Blair, and others, wanted us to remember, and wanted us to think of as the main reason.  I can’t help thinking they thought it a slam dunk all round, in terms of what we’d expect from Saddam, and what we’d regard as an unassailable reason to take him out.

    That every citizen isn’t a policy wonk or invested enough to investigate the twelve or fifteen, or eighteen main or subsidiary other reasons it was necessary to go after Saddam doesn’t really matter.  The object lesson is that–to all appearances–the main reason we were sold on the war turned out–at least superficially–not to be true.  Hence the disenchantment. (I’ve equivocated in the OP and in the comments, because I’m still not really sure whether or not the WMD issue was real, although I do have a pretty firm opinion of my own.  But I’m still not sure if we’ll ever really know.)

    I’m really pleased–not so much by my post, which is quite pedestrian other than in its heartfelt gratitude towards those who’ve gone above and beyond to keep us safe at considerable cost to themselves over the decades–by the insightful and knowledgeable comments on this post.  I have learned a lot. Thanks.

     

    • #95
  6. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    She (View Comment):
    The object lesson is that–to all appearances–the main reason we were sold on the war turned out–at least superficially–not to be true.  Hence the disenchantment.

    Since there were 5,000 WMD, how is it even superficially not true?

    Or was the main reason something more specific than “Saddam has WMD”?  Was it “He’s making a bunch of new ones”?

    • #96
  7. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    She (View Comment):
    The object lesson is that–to all appearances–the main reason we were sold on the war turned out–at least superficially–not to be true. Hence the disenchantment.

    Since there were 5,000 WMD, how is it even superficially not true?

    Or was the main reason something more specific than “Saddam has WMD”? Was it “He’s making a bunch of new ones”?

    And/or “nuke ones.”

    • #97
  8. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    She (View Comment):
    The object lesson is that–to all appearances–the main reason we were sold on the war turned out–at least superficially–not to be true. Hence the disenchantment.

    Since there were 5,000 WMD, how is it even superficially not true?

    Or was the main reason something more specific than “Saddam has WMD”? Was it “He’s making a bunch of new ones”?

    And/or “nuke ones.”

    Nukes were a possibility, as were biological weapons, but he had already used chemical weapons. Various members of Al-Quaeda had travelled in and out of Iraq.

    I think the Bush administration handled the actual fighting pretty well, but bollixed up nearly everything that came after.

    • #98
  9. namlliT noD Member
    namlliT noD
    @DonTillman

    She (View Comment):

    I think it’s quite reasonable to state, as a commenter did above, that WMD was the basis upon which Bush and Co. “sold” the war to the majority of the American people and their allies.  We tend to remember WMD as Bush’s reason to go to war with Iraq because that’s what Bush, and Powell, and Cheney, and Blair, and others, wanted us to remember, and wanted us to think of as the main reason.  I can’t help thinking they thought it a slam dunk all round, in terms of what we’d expect from Saddam, and what we’d regard as an unassailable reason to take him out.

    That every citizen isn’t a policy wonk or invested enough to investigate the twelve or fifteen, or eighteen main or subsidiary other reasons it was necessary to go after Saddam doesn’t really matter.  The object lesson is that–to all appearances–the main reason we were sold on the war turned out–at least superficially–not to be true.  Hence the disenchantment. (I’ve equivocated in the OP and in the comments, because I’m still not really sure whether or not the WMD issue was real, although I do have a pretty firm opinion of my own.  But I’m still not sure if we’ll ever really know.)

    GWB made his case for the war in the 2002 State of the Union Address, not because Iraq had WMDs, but rather that:

    “Iraq continues to flaunt its hostility toward America and to support terror. The Iraqi regime has plotted to develop anthrax and nerve gas and nuclear weapons for over a decade. This is a regime that has already used poison gas to murder thousands of its own citizens, leaving the bodies of mothers huddled over their dead children. This is a regime that agreed to international inspections, then kicked out the inspectors. This is a regime that has something to hide from the civilized world.”

    I don’t think the issue is so much the WMDs (how much, what kind, where they were, if they got hauled off to Syria, whatever), but rather that the 1991 Gulf War left behind such an unstable situation.

    • #99
  10. Joseph Stanko Coolidge
    Joseph Stanko
    @JosephStanko

    She (View Comment):
    We tend to remember WMD as Bush’s reason to go to war with Iraq because that’s what Bush, and Powell, and Cheney, and Blair, and others, wanted us to remember

    Is it?  Or is it b/c the left and the media pounded the “Bush lied, people died” slogan so hard for years afterward that the other justifications have faded into the mists of memory?

    • #100
  11. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    namlliT noD (View Comment):

    She (View Comment):

    I think it’s quite reasonable to state, as a commenter did above, that WMD was the basis upon which Bush and Co. “sold” the war to the majority of the American people and their allies. We tend to remember WMD as Bush’s reason to go to war with Iraq because that’s what Bush, and Powell, and Cheney, and Blair, and others, wanted us to remember, and wanted us to think of as the main reason. I can’t help thinking they thought it a slam dunk all round, in terms of what we’d expect from Saddam, and what we’d regard as an unassailable reason to take him out.

    That every citizen isn’t a policy wonk or invested enough to investigate the twelve or fifteen, or eighteen main or subsidiary other reasons it was necessary to go after Saddam doesn’t really matter. The object lesson is that–to all appearances–the main reason we were sold on the war turned out–at least superficially–not to be true. Hence the disenchantment. (I’ve equivocated in the OP and in the comments, because I’m still not really sure whether or not the WMD issue was real, although I do have a pretty firm opinion of my own. But I’m still not sure if we’ll ever really know.)

    GWB made his case for the war in the 2002 State of the Union Address, not because Iraq had WMDs, but rather that:

    “Iraq continues to flaunt its hostility toward America and to support terror. The Iraqi regime has plotted to develop anthrax and nerve gas and nuclear weapons for over a decade. This is a regime that has already used poison gas to murder thousands of its own citizens, leaving the bodies of mothers huddled over their dead children. This is a regime that agreed to international inspections, then kicked out the inspectors. This is a regime that has something to hide from the civilized world.”

    I don’t think the issue is so much the WMDs (how much, what kind, where the were, if they got hauled off to Syria, whatever), but rather that the 1991 Gulf War left behind such an unstable situation.

    As I recall, one reason Saddam wasn’t taken out in 1991 was that the “Arab allies” wouldn’t cooperate, at that time.  So it wasn’t just on us.

    • #101
  12. namlliT noD Member
    namlliT noD
    @DonTillman

    That said, I think GWB did a terrible job executing the war.

    The ridiculous Rules of Engagement.   Tiptoeing around every religious and cultural detail so as not to offend.

    (We couldn’t battle in a “holy city”, and suddenly all the cities are “holy”.  Why can’t we do that here?  The only holy city we have is… Toledo.)

    Our troops were put to work building schoolhouses in the 115 degree heat, while being attacked with IEDs.

    Just terrible.  There was no plan to win, and it went on and on.

    • #102
  13. namlliT noD Member
    namlliT noD
    @DonTillman

    kedavis (View Comment):

    namlliT noD (View Comment):

    I don’t think the issue is so much the WMDs (how much, what kind, where the were, if they got hauled off to Syria, whatever), but rather that the 1991 Gulf War left behind such an unstable situation.

    As I recall, one reason Saddam wasn’t taken out in 1991 was that the “Arab allies” wouldn’t cooperate, at that time. So it wasn’t just on us.

    Indeed.  It was a difficult situation.

    • #103
  14. Instugator Thatcher
    Instugator
    @Instugator

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    Instugator (View Comment):

    Joseph Stanko (View Comment):
    I don’t think that democracy per se was the problem, the big mistake was failing to anticipate the scope and duration of the insurgency.

    The insurgency was caused and abetted by Bremer and the idiots from the Kennedy School of Government.

    See the video for more

    https://encrypted-vtbn0.gstatic.com/video?q=tbn:ANd9GcSvhWSIWauiP-PAxQMsoQokfVwdv0u8cWZeYg

    The Iraqi insurgency was caused…..and….. abetted….. by Paul Bremer? You’re gonna have to show some pretty radical evidence to convince me of that.

    I guess he didn’t watch the video.

    Short answer, the de-baathification requirements and the prohibition of  the Coalition Provisional Government from dealing with traditional tribal elders created the space where the insurgency could take root and thrive, particularly when the very policies create tremendous unemployment among military aged males.

    Seriously, watch the video or read Capt Trav’s brief.

    • #104
  15. Hang On Member
    Hang On
    @HangOn

    And thus began the geostrategic downfall of the United States. 

    • #105
  16. She Member
    She
    @She

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    She (View Comment):
    The object lesson is that–to all appearances–the main reason we were sold on the war turned out–at least superficially–not to be true. Hence the disenchantment.

    Since there were 5,000 WMD, how is it even superficially not true?

    Or was the main reason something more specific than “Saddam has WMD”? Was it “He’s making a bunch of new ones”?

    Joseph Stanko (View Comment):

    She (View Comment):
    We tend to remember WMD as Bush’s reason to go to war with Iraq because that’s what Bush, and Powell, and Cheney, and Blair, and others, wanted us to remember

    Is it? Or is it b/c the left and the media pounded the “Bush lied, people died” slogan so hard for years afterward that the other justifications have faded into the mists of memory?

    The transcript of Bush’s 2003 SOTU, given on January 28 of that year, is here.  I think it’s notable for several reasons, most strikingly for how much of it is NOT about the war on terror.  He brings that up for the first time slightly more than half-way through, and–after a few obligatory remarks about how well we are doing, and how cooperative nations are being, says:

    Today, the gravest danger in the war on terror, the gravest danger facing America and the world, is outlaw regimes that seek and possess nuclear, chemical and biological weapons.

    These regimes could use such weapons for blackmail, terror and mass murder. They could also give or sell those weapons to terrorist allies, who would use them without the least hesitation.

    following up shortly thereafter with

    America is making a broad and determined effort to confront these dangers. We have called on the United Nations to fulfill its charter and stand by its demand that Iraq disarm. We are strongly supporting the International Atomic Energy Agency in its mission to track and control nuclear materials around the world.

    General remarks about Russia, Iran, North Korea, etc.

    Then back to Iraq:

    Twelve years ago, Saddam Hussein faced the prospect of being the last casualty in a war he had started and lost. To spare himself, he agreed to disarm of all weapons of mass destruction.

    For the next 12 years, he systematically violated that agreement. He pursued chemical, biological and nuclear weapons even while inspectors were in his country.

    Nothing to date has restrained him from his pursuit of these weapons: not economic sanctions, not isolation from the civilized world, not even cruise missile strikes on his military facilities.

    More

    It is up to Iraq to show exactly where it is hiding its banned weapons, lay those weapons out for the world to see and destroy them as directed. Nothing like this has happened. The United Nations concluded in 1999 that Saddam Hussein had biological weapons materials sufficient to produce over 25,000 liters of anthrax; enough doses to kill several million people. He hasn’t accounted for that material. He has given no evidence that he has destroyed it.

    And

    Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent. In such quantities, these chemical agents could also kill untold thousands. He’s not accounted for these materials. He has given no evidence that he has destroyed them. U.S. intelligence indicates that Saddam Hussein had upwards of 30,000 munitions capable of delivering chemical agents. Inspectors recently turned up 16 of them, despite Iraq’s recent declaration denying their existence. Saddam Hussein has not accounted for the remaining 29,984 of these prohibited munitions. He has given no evidence that he has destroyed them.

    But wait, there’s more!

    Year after year, Saddam Hussein has gone to elaborate lengths, spent enormous sums, taken great risks to build and keep weapons of mass destruction. But why? The only possible explanation, the only possible use he could have for those weapons, is to dominate, intimidate or attack.

    To continue:

    Evidence from intelligence sources, secret communications and statements by people now in custody reveal that Saddam Hussein aids and protects terrorists, including members of Al Qaeda. Secretly, and without fingerprints, he could provide one of his hidden weapons to terrorists, or help them develop their own.

    Before September the 11th, many in the world believed that Saddam Hussein could be contained. But chemical agents, lethal viruses and shadowy terrorist networks are not easily contained.

    Imagine those 19 hijackers with other weapons and other plans, this time armed by Saddam Hussein. It would take one vial, one canister, one crate slipped into this country to bring a day of horror like none we have ever known.

    Furthermore:

    Some have said we must not act until the threat is imminent. Since when have terrorists and tyrants announced their intentions, politely putting us on notice before they strike?

    If this threat is permitted to fully and suddenly emerge, all actions, all words and all recriminations would come too late. Trusting in the sanity and restraint of Saddam Hussein is not a strategy, and it is not an option.

    And

    tonight I have a message for the brave and oppressed people of Iraq: Your enemy is not surrounding your country, your enemy is ruling your country.

    And the day he and his regime are removed from power will be the day of your liberation.

    I can’t find anywhere in Bush’s 2023 SOTU, given the week before Powell’s appearance before the UN (I remember all the satellite photos, all the twice-and-thrice documented sources and named names), and given just seven weeks before the invasion, that talks about any other reason for going to war besides the very clear threat that Saddam had, was continuing to manufacture, and would very probably use himself, or sell to terrorists, WMD.

    This was Bush’s opportunity, with the attention of a nation on tenterhooks, to lay out his case to the American people.  And that was it.

    I’m not a military historian.  But I’m not deaf, and I’m not a fool, and–even in my incipient dotage–my memory is still rather reliable.  Policy wonks, either amateur or professional, might know more, might know different, or might know better.

    What I know is that the man on the street was sold on the goodness of, and the necessity for, the Iraq war based on the immediate threat of Saddam’s WMD.  End of story.

    • #106
  17. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    She (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    She (View Comment):
    The object lesson is that–to all appearances–the main reason we were sold on the war turned out–at least superficially–not to be true. Hence the disenchantment.

    Since there were 5,000 WMD, how is it even superficially not true?

    Or was the main reason something more specific than “Saddam has WMD”? Was it “He’s making a bunch of new ones”?

    Joseph Stanko (View Comment):

    She (View Comment):
    We tend to remember WMD as Bush’s reason to go to war with Iraq because that’s what Bush, and Powell, and Cheney, and Blair, and others, wanted us to remember

    Is it? Or is it b/c the left and the media pounded the “Bush lied, people died” slogan so hard for years afterward that the other justifications have faded into the mists of memory?

    The transcript of Bush’s 2003 SOTU, given on January 28 of that year, is here. I think it’s notable for several reasons, most strikingly for how much of it is NOT about the war on terror. He brings that up for the first time slightly more than half-way through, and–after a few obligatory remarks about how well we are doing, and how cooperative nations are being, says:

    Today, the gravest danger in the war on terror, the gravest danger facing America and the world, is outlaw regimes that seek and possess nuclear, chemical and biological weapons.

    These regimes could use such weapons for blackmail, terror and mass murder. They could also give or sell those weapons to terrorist allies, who would use them without the least hesitation.

    following up shortly thereafter with

    America is making a broad and determined effort to confront these dangers. We have called on the United Nations to fulfill its charter and stand by its demand that Iraq disarm. We are strongly supporting the International Atomic Energy Agency in its mission to track and control nuclear materials around the world.

    General remarks about Russia, Iran, North Korea, etc.

    Then back to Iraq:

    Twelve years ago, Saddam Hussein faced the prospect of being the last casualty in a war he had started and lost. To spare himself, he agreed to disarm of all weapons of mass destruction.

    For the next 12 years, he systematically violated that agreement. He pursued chemical, biological and nuclear weapons even while inspectors were in his country.

    Nothing to date has restrained him from his pursuit of these weapons: not economic sanctions, not isolation from the civilized world, not even cruise missile strikes on his military facilities.

    More

    It is up to Iraq to show exactly where it is hiding its banned weapons, lay those weapons out for the world to see and destroy them as directed. Nothing like this has happened. The United Nations concluded in 1999 that Saddam Hussein had biological weapons materials sufficient to produce over 25,000 liters of anthrax; enough doses to kill several million people. He hasn’t accounted for that material. He has given no evidence that he has destroyed it.

    And

    Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent. In such quantities, these chemical agents could also kill untold thousands. He’s not accounted for these materials. He has given no evidence that he has destroyed them. U.S. intelligence indicates that Saddam Hussein had upwards of 30,000 munitions capable of delivering chemical agents. Inspectors recently turned up 16 of them, despite Iraq’s recent declaration denying their existence. Saddam Hussein has not accounted for the remaining 29,984 of these prohibited munitions. He has given no evidence that he has destroyed them.

    But wait, there’s more!

    Year after year, Saddam Hussein has gone to elaborate lengths, spent enormous sums, taken great risks to build and keep weapons of mass destruction. But why? The only possible explanation, the only possible use he could have for those weapons, is to dominate, intimidate or attack.

    To continue:

    Evidence from intelligence sources, secret communications and statements by people now in custody reveal that Saddam Hussein aids and protects terrorists, including members of Al Qaeda. Secretly, and without fingerprints, he could provide one of his hidden weapons to terrorists, or help them develop their own.

    Before September the 11th, many in the world believed that Saddam Hussein could be contained. But chemical agents, lethal viruses and shadowy terrorist networks are not easily contained.

    Imagine those 19 hijackers with other weapons and other plans, this time armed by Saddam Hussein. It would take one vial, one canister, one crate slipped into this country to bring a day of horror like none we have ever known.

    Furthermore:

    Some have said we must not act until the threat is imminent. Since when have terrorists and tyrants announced their intentions, politely putting us on notice before they strike?

    If this threat is permitted to fully and suddenly emerge, all actions, all words and all recriminations would come too late. Trusting in the sanity and restraint of Saddam Hussein is not a strategy, and it is not an option.

    And

    tonight I have a message for the brave and oppressed people of Iraq: Your enemy is not surrounding your country, your enemy is ruling your country.

    And the day he and his regime are removed from power will be the day of your liberation.

    I can’t find anywhere in Bush’s 2023 SOTU, given the week before Powell’s appearance before the UN (I remember all the satellite photos, all the twice-and-thrice documented sources and named names), and given just seven weeks before the invasion, that talks about any other reason for going to war besides the very clear threat that Saddam had, was continuing to manufacture, and would very probably use himself, or sell to terrorists, WMD.

    This was Bush’s opportunity, with the attention of a nation on tenterhooks, to lay out his case to the American people. And that was it.

    I’m not a military historian. But I’m not deaf, and I’m not a fool, and–even in my incipient dotage, my memory is still rather reliable. Policy wonks, either amateur or professional, might know more, might know different, or might know better.

    What I know is that the man on the street was sold on goodness of the Iraq war based on the immediate threat of Saddam’s WMD. End of story.

    Ok.  WMD and an imminent threat.

    I don’t know that the 5k weapons found were an imminent threat.

    So . . . good answer!

    • #107
  18. She Member
    She
    @She

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Ok.  WMD and an imminent threat.

    I don’t know that the 5k weapons found were an imminent threat.

    So . . . good answer!

    I think @percival hit the nail on the head in #15 when he said:

    Somehow, our “finders of fact” had it in their noggins that WMDs would be stored in vast stockpiles instead of 50 here, 75 there.

    Given the administration’s hype (and I’m not judging/guessing whether or where good faith began or ended), I think that’s exactly what the American people, not unreasonably in the circumstances, did expect.

    • #108
  19. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    She (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Ok. WMD and an imminent threat.

    I don’t know that the 5k weapons found were an imminent threat.

    So . . . good answer!

    I think @ percival hit the nail on the head in #15 when he said:

    Somehow, our “finders of fact” had it in their noggins that WMDs would be stored in vast stockpiles instead of 50 here, 75 there.

    Given the administration’s hype (and I’m not judging/guessing whether or where good faith began or ended), I think that’s exactly what the American people, not unreasonably in the circumstances, did expect.

    Keep in mind that even if Saddam had an after-the-last-second change of heart, orders to dispose of what stocks he did have might have met with … complications.

    “We have new orders. Move the chem rounds out of the warehouse and into the trucks. They are to be sent out for destruction.”

    “Even the leaky ones, Major?”

    “Leaky ones? No! Leave those alone. I’ll call HQ for instructions …”

    I wouldn’t be surprised if at least part of Saddam’s reticence was due to embarrassment. 

    • #109
  20. Steven Seward Member
    Steven Seward
    @StevenSeward

    namlliT noD (View Comment):

    The only holy city we have is… Toledo.

    That’s brilliant!

     

    • #110
  21. Steven Seward Member
    Steven Seward
    @StevenSeward

    Instugator (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    Instugator (View Comment):

    Joseph Stanko (View Comment):
    I don’t think that democracy per se was the problem, the big mistake was failing to anticipate the scope and duration of the insurgency.

    The insurgency was caused and abetted by Bremer and the idiots from the Kennedy School of Government.

    See the video for more

    https://encrypted-vtbn0.gstatic.com/video?q=tbn:ANd9GcSvhWSIWauiP-PAxQMsoQokfVwdv0u8cWZeYg

    The Iraqi insurgency was caused…..and….. abetted….. by Paul Bremer? You’re gonna have to show some pretty radical evidence to convince me of that.

    I guess he didn’t watch the video.

    Short answer, the de-baathification requirements and the prohibition of the Coalition Provisional Government from dealing with traditional tribal elders created the space where the insurgency could take root and thrive, particularly when the very policies create tremendous unemployment among military aged males.

    Seriously, watch the video or read Capt Trav’s brief.

    Your linked video is a little stick figure that says “I own a construction company” and plays for five seconds.

    I find it hard to believe that the Iraqi insurgency was caused by the Coalition Provisional Government not dealing with the tribal elders.  It was caused by radical people (mostly associated with the fallen Saddam regime) who hated and wanted to expel the Westerners.  They had been used to killing people under their thumb en masse for the last 30 years.  We didn’t deal with Nazi leaders or Japanese leaders either after World War II except to tell them what to do.  Even so we had an insurgency against occupation troops in Germany after World War II.

    • #111
  22. DonG (CAGW is a Scam) Coolidge
    DonG (CAGW is a Scam)
    @DonG

    She (View Comment):
    This was Bush’s opportunity

    W. has daddy issues.  He is the Hunter of the Bush family.  He older brother is chosen one and he was the druggie.  And like a typical inferiority complex he was going to earn his daddy’s admiration by vanquishing his father’s foe, Saddam Hussein.   I have more respect for Cheney, who was just looking to cash-in.

    • #112
  23. Steven Seward Member
    Steven Seward
    @StevenSeward

    DonG (CAGW is a Scam) (View Comment):

    She (View Comment):
    This was Bush’s opportunity

    W. has daddy issues. He is the Hunter of the Bush family.

    He was that bad eh?  Was he Hitler, too?

    • #113
  24. Hang On Member
    Hang On
    @HangOn

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5iveOQd6WE

    This is Napolitano interviewing Ray McGovern who is former CIA and was in charge of daily briefings in the Reagan administration. In McGovern’s opinion, the war in Iraq was sold to the American public because the Bush administration was interested in oil, Israel, and logistics with bases in northern Iraq. WMD was simply a pretext. He goes on to talk about the origins of the war in Ukraine as well and what is going on there as well. 

    • #114
  25. She Member
    She
    @She

    DonG (CAGW is a Scam) (View Comment):

    She (View Comment):
    This was Bush’s opportunity

    W. has daddy issues. He is the Hunter of the Bush family.

    Get back to me on that one after Hunter has twice gotten himself elected governor of a large state and served as a two-term US President.

    He older brother is chosen one and he was the druggie. And like a typical inferiority complex he was going to earn his daddy’s admiration by vanquishing his father’s foe, Saddam Hussein.

    I think that’s ludicrous. And speaks to several things you can’t possibly know.

     

    • #115
  26. DonG (CAGW is a Scam) Coolidge
    DonG (CAGW is a Scam)
    @DonG

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    DonG (CAGW is a Scam) (View Comment):

    She (View Comment):
    This was Bush’s opportunity

    W. has daddy issues. He is the Hunter of the Bush family.

    He was that bad eh? Was he Hitler, too?

    Not at all.   But primogeniture is a real thing.  Jeb was always the favored son.  Jeb was the Beau Biden and was supposed to run for president, but missed winning the FL governor job on the first try.  Jeb was the heir, and W. was the spare.   A study showed that second sons were 20-40% more likely to be criminals.   Daddy issues.  

    • #116
  27. She Member
    She
    @She

    DonG (CAGW is a Scam) (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    DonG (CAGW is a Scam) (View Comment):

    She (View Comment):
    This was Bush’s opportunity

    W. has daddy issues. He is the Hunter of the Bush family.

    He was that bad eh? Was he Hitler, too?

    Not at all. But primogeniture is a real thing. Jeb was always the favored son. Jeb was the Beau Biden and was supposed to run for president, but missed winning the FL governor job on the first try. Jeb was the heir, and W. was the spare. A study showed that second sons were 20-40% more likely to be criminals. Daddy issues.

    Wasn’t GW Bush the oldest male child of his parents?  Isn’t that the very definition of the primogeniture “thing?”  And of the heir?  Rather than the spare?  Not sure why–in the current enviroment–that’s even a question.  Thank you Prince Harry.

    By your logic, I guess Jeb should have been the criminal, right?  Because last time I looked, Jeb! was about 6 1/2 years younger than George W. Wasn’t he?

    Please think twice before responding.

    Crimenutely.

    • #117
  28. She Member
    She
    @She

    Hang On (View Comment):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5iveOQd6WE

    This is Napolitano interviewing Ray McGovern who is former CIA and was in charge of daily briefings in the Reagan administration. In McGovern’s opinion, the war in Iraq was sold to the American public because the Bush administration was interested in oil, Israel, and logistics with bases in northern Iraq. WMD was simply a pretext. He goes on to talk about the origins of the war in Ukraine as well and what is going on there as well.

    Oh, Andrew.  Not Janet.  Phew.

    • #118
  29. Hang On Member
    Hang On
    @HangOn

    She (View Comment):

    Hang On (View Comment):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5iveOQd6WE

    This is Napolitano interviewing Ray McGovern who is former CIA and was in charge of daily briefings in the Reagan administration. In McGovern’s opinion, the war in Iraq was sold to the American public because the Bush administration was interested in oil, Israel, and logistics with bases in northern Iraq. WMD was simply a pretext. He goes on to talk about the origins of the war in Ukraine as well and what is going on there as well.

    Oh, Andrew. Not Janet. Phew.

    I forgot about Janet. Or maybe more accurate to say I got her out of my consciousness as quickly as I could. 

    • #119
  30. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    DonG (CAGW is a Scam) (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    DonG (CAGW is a Scam) (View Comment):

    She: The war was premised on the the belief that Hussein was manufacturing and staging weapons of mass destruction to be used against his enemies.

    Which is the “lie of the century”: WMD in Iraq or safe and effective?

    You must mean the mistake of the century. Lie implies correct knowledge and intent to misrepresent that truth.

    No, I mean lie. I mean they said things that were known to be untrue. I actually think the Climate Hoax might be the biggest lie, but the impact is mostly ahead of us.

    And your evidence that they knew it to be untrue?

    • #120
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