How Republicans Will Elect Biden 2.0 in 2024

 

“Biden 2.0” is a stand-in for some Democrat figurehead of the Party of Death and Destruction (D). It could be Biden (D). It could be Harris (D). Maybe gruesome Newsome (D). Doesn’t matter, I predict we’ll have one of them, and it will be because “a majority [or, at least, a plurality] of Republicans want Trump, but the Republican Party says we can’t have him.” 

This is a similar dynamic to the Republican’s Taft-Roosevelt split that produced probably the most destructive presidency of the 20th century — Woodrow Wilson (D) — followed closely by FDR (D) and LBJ (D) (notice a pattern?).

Dan Gelernter spelled it out masterfully earlier in the month in Trump Was a Mistake, and now speaks for me in The Coming Split.

But, despite the obvious differences, we’re heading for a 1912-repeat, in which the Republican Party ignores its own voters. The Republican machine has no intention of letting us choose Trump again: He is not a uniparty team player. They’d rather lose an election to the Democrats, their brothers in crime, than win with Trump.

I especially appreciate his points here [emphasis mine]:

I’m sure I’ll be accused of being a shill for the Democrats here, and as far as I’m concerned that’s as credible as being accused of shilling for Russia these days. I’m not suggesting you have to do what I do, either. But I have no intention of supporting a Republican Party that manifestly contravenes the desires of its voters. The RNC can pretend Trump isn’t loved by the base anymore, that he doesn’t have packed rallies everywhere he goes. But I’m not buying it: Talk to Republican voters anywhere outside the Beltway, and it is obvious that he is admired and even loved by those who consider themselves “ordinary” Americans.

Mitch McConnell put cement boots on the Republican party and pushed it into the Potomac with this line: “providing assistance for Ukrainians to defeat the Russians is the number one priority for the United States right now, according to most Republicans.”

In response, I’ll quote a different Mc: “Nuts!” — General McAuliffe

Trump may be our General Patton and the Third Army of his voters the only force that can save America from Biden 2.0.

MAGA!

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  1. HeavyWater Inactive
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    Django (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

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    kedavis (View Comment):

    Django (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    They point to “natural law”. Some of them do anyway.

    “Natural law” seems to be more along the lines of “kill or be killed.”

    I haven’t given it much thought for years, so I am hesitant to run my keyboard on the subject now, but that’s not the philosophical meaning of “natural law”.

    If you talk to an atheist scientist and ask him, “Where do our moral come from?” his response is likely to be, “Much of our pro-social behavior is adaptive. The saying, ‘I’ll scratch your back if you scratch mine’ might give us a hint as to why human beings tend to cooperate with each other in many circumstances. Evolution through natural selection has given us a mixed bag of behaviors ranging from vengeance to generosity.”

    The real problem with atheism and morality was highlighted in a debate between Berlinski and Hitchens. Hitchens was offended by the implication that an atheist couldn’t distinguish between right and wrong. Berlinski nailed it when he said, “That’s hardly the point, is it? . . . You may know what is right and we may agree, but what compels you to choose right over wrong?”

    I probably misquoted, but the content is correct.

    But if Berlinski had elaborated a bit further, he would have to admit that religious people often do the wrong thing even when they know better.  

    So, Hitchens was right.  Religious people don’t always know what is the right thing to do and religous people don’t always do the right thing.  Same for atheists.  

    Human beings, be they religious or not, are morally and intellectually imperfect.  

    • #511
  2. Red Herring Coolidge
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    HeavyWater (View Comment):

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    On my mother’s side of my family, nearly everyone is a non-believer. On my wife’s side of the family, nearly everyone is a Christian, some more devout than others.

    What struck me about 10 or 15 years ago was how these two families, who live a thousand miles away from each other and have never met, have such similar morals and behavior.

    One summer, one of my wife’s nieces when with her church as a missionary in Africa. That same summer, one of my atheist cousins, who is almost the same age, found a non-religious humanitarian organization that was doing anti-poverty work in Africa. So, this non-religious cousin signed up and flew out to Africa to help out.

    Both of these families pursue education at mostly non-religious universities. That niece I mentioned is getting married next year to a Jewish man. Her Christian parents don’t seem to mind.

    Observing these young people, both religious and non-religious, has made me much more optimistic about the future of America than other conservatives seem to be.

    My non-religious cousins are as kind and generous people as one could imagine. Similar compliments could be paid to many of my wife’s religious relatives.

    Seems like if the religious people are asked where their attitudes/morality come from, they can just point to the Bible. If the atheists are asked the same thing, all they can do is shrug. Or maybe also point to the Bible even if they hate doing it.

    Most atheists I know, if asked where their morality comes from would likely say, “From my intuitions. My intuition tells me that stoning someone to death for gathering wood on the sabbath is morally wrong, even if the God of the Bible commands it.”

    These atheists might admit that their intuitions are falliable. Yet they would also likely view the Bible as fallible having been written by fallible human beings, not a morally perfect God.

    350,000,000 people in the US, each determining his own morality is disorder.

    Which is what you get with 350,000,000 Christians. You lots of theology textbooks saying contrasting things.

    We had a common core of values. Even when denominations stray, the common core survives. It served us well, especially in education, until the progressives mucked it up in the 20th century. They have tried to replace God and the Bible with progressive government. They only know how to destroy. They attack all the foundations of our society.  They create nothing of lasting value. They replaced several thousand years of knowledge passed on in great works of literature and the arts with garbage. The cultural rot runs deep. 

    • #512
  3. Red Herring Coolidge
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    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    I suppose one man’s indoctrination and brainwashing is another man’s proper education.

    We want our education back. We don’t want this mindless twaddle the progressives push in schools now.

    • #513
  4. Red Herring Coolidge
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    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

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    Django (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    They point to “natural law”. Some of them do anyway.

    “Natural law” seems to be more along the lines of “kill or be killed.”

    I haven’t given it much thought for years, so I am hesitant to run my keyboard on the subject now, but that’s not the philosophical meaning of “natural law”.

    If you talk to an atheist scientist and ask him, “Where do our moral come from?” his response is likely to be, “Much of our pro-social behavior is adaptive. The saying, ‘I’ll scratch your back if you scratch mine’ might give us a hint as to why human beings tend to cooperate with each other in many circumstances. Evolution through natural selection has given us a mixed bag of behaviors ranging from vengeance to generosity.”

    Secular humanists are living off of last year’s sap of the Judeo-Christian West. But, the tree is dead.

    They have added nothing of value to replace what they have removed. 

    • #514
  5. Red Herring Coolidge
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    HeavyWater (View Comment):

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    Django (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    They point to “natural law”. Some of them do anyway.

    “Natural law” seems to be more along the lines of “kill or be killed.”

    I haven’t given it much thought for years, so I am hesitant to run my keyboard on the subject now, but that’s not the philosophical meaning of “natural law”.

    If you talk to an atheist scientist and ask him, “Where do our moral come from?” his response is likely to be, “Much of our pro-social behavior is adaptive. The saying, ‘I’ll scratch your back if you scratch mine’ might give us a hint as to why human beings tend to cooperate with each other in many circumstances. Evolution through natural selection has given us a mixed bag of behaviors ranging from vengeance to generosity.”

    Secular humanists are living off of last year’s sap of the Judeo-Christian West. But, the tree is dead.

    I think secular humanists are living off of many ideas not found in the Bible.

    Representative government and competitive elections.

    No human being should be allowed to own another human being.

    The Bible didn’t say, “And there shall be a legislative branch, an executive branch and a judicial branch.”

    The Bible didn’t say, “And woman shall have the right to vote.”

    We moved beyond the Bible a long time ago.

    Much of our ideas for government came from the western tradition, from Greece and Rome. Christianity added to those great thinkers. One can’t understand who we are and what our culture is without reading and studying the Bible. You might have moved on from the Bible, if you ever read it to begin with, but we haven’t. 

    • #515
  6. HeavyWater Inactive
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    Red Herring (View Comment):

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    Django (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    They point to “natural law”. Some of them do anyway.

    “Natural law” seems to be more along the lines of “kill or be killed.”

    I haven’t given it much thought for years, so I am hesitant to run my keyboard on the subject now, but that’s not the philosophical meaning of “natural law”.

    If you talk to an atheist scientist and ask him, “Where do our moral come from?” his response is likely to be, “Much of our pro-social behavior is adaptive. The saying, ‘I’ll scratch your back if you scratch mine’ might give us a hint as to why human beings tend to cooperate with each other in many circumstances. Evolution through natural selection has given us a mixed bag of behaviors ranging from vengeance to generosity.”

    Secular humanists are living off of last year’s sap of the Judeo-Christian West. But, the tree is dead.

    I think secular humanists are living off of many ideas not found in the Bible.

    Representative government and competitive elections.

    No human being should be allowed to own another human being.

    The Bible didn’t say, “And there shall be a legislative branch, an executive branch and a judicial branch.”

    The Bible didn’t say, “And woman shall have the right to vote.”

    We moved beyond the Bible a long time ago.

    Much of our ideas for government came from the western tradition, from Greece and Rome. Christianity added to those great thinkers. One can’t understand who we are and what our culture is without reading and studying the Bible. You might have moved on from the Bible, if you ever read it to begin with, but we haven’t.

    So, all of us, religious and non-religious people, can celebrate those traditions that are good while rejecting those traditions that are bad.  

    The Bible is very large book.  Well, it’s actually about 66 books give or take based on which denomination one is part of.  People can spend their entire lives reading it and trying to discern its meanngs, debating what this author “really” meant.  

    Most people, religious or not, are not Bible experts, nor can they read Koine Greek, which is what most of the old New Testament manuscripts were written in.  Translating from Koine Greek into English while retaining all of the meaning is a challenge for New Testament scholars, as is evaluating the difference between the manuscripts and trying to figure out what the original document contained.  

    It’s not easy peasy.  

    • #516
  7. Red Herring Coolidge
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    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Oik (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    We moved beyond the Bible a long time ago.

    As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man
    There are only four things certain since Social Progress began.
    That the Dog returns to his Vomit and the Sow returns to her Mire,
    And the burnt Fool’s bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the Fire;

    And that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
    When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
    As surely as Water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
    The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

    I forgot to mention unleaded gasoline and cable tv.

    Those aren’t in the Bible either.

    Have you read Aristotle? Studied Latin? Plato? Locke? The Holy Bible? Do you believe the founders created an “exceptional” Constitution and country? To preserve what they gave us, shouldn’t we be reading what they read? College entrance exams used to be in Latin.

    • #517
  8. HeavyWater Inactive
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    Red Herring (View Comment):

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    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    We moved beyond the Bible a long time ago.

    As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man
    There are only four things certain since Social Progress began.
    That the Dog returns to his Vomit and the Sow returns to her Mire,
    And the burnt Fool’s bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the Fire;

    And that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
    When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
    As surely as Water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
    The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

    I forgot to mention unleaded gasoline and cable tv.

    Those aren’t in the Bible either.

    Have you read Aristotle? Studied Latin? Plato? Locke? The Holy Bible? Do you believe the founders created an “exceptional” Constitution and country? To preserve what they gave us, shouldn’t we be reading what they read? College entrance exams used to be in Latin.

    I’ve read the Bible.  I do believe that the framers of the US Constitution created a great document even though it didn’t prohibit slavery for pragmatic reasons.  

    Reading the Bible isn’t equivalent to believing that God inspired it.  You get a few thousand Bible experts and you will get a ton of different interpretations regarding what various chapters and books mean and how they should be applied to life in the 21st century.  

    • #518
  9. Red Herring Coolidge
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    HeavyWater (View Comment):

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    DrewInWisconsin, Oik (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    We moved beyond the Bible a long time ago.

    As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man
    There are only four things certain since Social Progress began.
    That the Dog returns to his Vomit and the Sow returns to her Mire,
    And the burnt Fool’s bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the Fire;

    And that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
    When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
    As surely as Water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
    The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

    I forgot to mention unleaded gasoline and cable tv.

    Those aren’t in the Bible either.

    Have you read Aristotle? Studied Latin? Plato? Locke? The Holy Bible? Do you believe the founders created an “exceptional” Constitution and country? To preserve what they gave us, shouldn’t we be reading what they read? College entrance exams used to be in Latin.

    I’ve read the Bible. I do believe that the framers of the US Constitution created a great document even though it didn’t prohibit slavery for pragmatic reasons.

    Reading the Bible isn’t equivalent to believing that God inspired it. You get a few thousand Bible experts and you will get a ton of different interpretations regarding what various chapters and books mean and how they should be applied to life in the 21st century.

    And yet it surpasses what we have produced in staying power, moral lessons, history, poetry songs, and general guidance on how to connect with your soul.

    Just curious, what is it like going through life with no soul, no promise of heaven and an afterlife? I have never met an atheist who could convince me there is an advantage to being one. What does it offer that my religion can’t? Can you enjoy The Messiah at Christmas and Easter? 

    • #519
  10. Red Herring Coolidge
    Red Herring
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    Django (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Django (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Django (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    They point to “natural law”. Some of them do anyway.

    “Natural law” seems to be more along the lines of “kill or be killed.”

    I haven’t given it much thought for years, so I am hesitant to run my keyboard on the subject now, but that’s not the philosophical meaning of “natural law”.

    If you talk to an atheist scientist and ask him, “Where do our moral come from?” his response is likely to be, “Much of our pro-social behavior is adaptive. The saying, ‘I’ll scratch your back if you scratch mine’ might give us a hint as to why human beings tend to cooperate with each other in many circumstances. Evolution through natural selection has given us a mixed bag of behaviors ranging from vengeance to generosity.”

    The real problem with atheism and morality was highlighted in a debate between Berlinski and Hitchens. Hitchens was offended by the implication that an atheist couldn’t distinguish between right and wrong. Berlinski nailed it when he said, “That’s hardly the point, is it? . . . You may know what is right and we may agree, but what compels you to choose right over wrong?”

    I probably misquoted, but the content is correct.

    I have heard it from others. The atheist can opt not to choose what is right if it is inconvenient.  There is no higher authority like an all-knowing God. For them, it is just what can law enforcement catch you and punish you for doing.. This book addresses that. I have read it and taken a bunch of notes. I took the book, my notebook, and my questions on the NR cruise so I could discuss it with the author. He came down with Covid and missed the cruise.

    • #520
  11. Red Herring Coolidge
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    HeavyWater (View Comment):

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    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Django (View Comment):

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    Django (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    They point to “natural law”. Some of them do anyway.

    “Natural law” seems to be more along the lines of “kill or be killed.”

    I haven’t given it much thought for years, so I am hesitant to run my keyboard on the subject now, but that’s not the philosophical meaning of “natural law”.

    If you talk to an atheist scientist and ask him, “Where do our moral come from?” his response is likely to be, “Much of our pro-social behavior is adaptive. The saying, ‘I’ll scratch your back if you scratch mine’ might give us a hint as to why human beings tend to cooperate with each other in many circumstances. Evolution through natural selection has given us a mixed bag of behaviors ranging from vengeance to generosity.”

    The real problem with atheism and morality was highlighted in a debate between Berlinski and Hitchens. Hitchens was offended by the implication that an atheist couldn’t distinguish between right and wrong. Berlinski nailed it when he said, “That’s hardly the point, is it? . . . You may know what is right and we may agree, but what compels you to choose right over wrong?”

    I probably misquoted, but the content is correct.

    But if Berlinski had elaborated a bit further, he would have to admit that religious people often do the wrong thing even when they know better.

    So, Hitchens was right. Religious people don’t always know what is the right thing to do and religous people don’t always do the right thing. Same for atheists.

    Human beings, be they religious or not, are morally and intellectually imperfect.

    No, you miss the point. We are all sinners and admit that but we can’t escape the all-knowing God. We pray for forgiveness and can be forgiven or punished by him. 

    • #521
  12. HeavyWater Inactive
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    Red Herring (View Comment):

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    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    We moved beyond the Bible a long time ago.

    As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man
    There are only four things certain since Social Progress began.
    That the Dog returns to his Vomit and the Sow returns to her Mire,
    And the burnt Fool’s bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the Fire;

    And that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
    When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
    As surely as Water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
    The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

    I forgot to mention unleaded gasoline and cable tv.

    Those aren’t in the Bible either.

    Have you read Aristotle? Studied Latin? Plato? Locke? The Holy Bible? Do you believe the founders created an “exceptional” Constitution and country? To preserve what they gave us, shouldn’t we be reading what they read? College entrance exams used to be in Latin.

    I’ve read the Bible. I do believe that the framers of the US Constitution created a great document even though it didn’t prohibit slavery for pragmatic reasons.

    Reading the Bible isn’t equivalent to believing that God inspired it. You get a few thousand Bible experts and you will get a ton of different interpretations regarding what various chapters and books mean and how they should be applied to life in the 21st century.

    And yet it surpasses what we have produced in staying power, moral lessons, history, poetry songs, and general guidance on how to connect with your soul.

    Just curious, what is it like going through life with no soul, no promise of heaven and an afterlife? I have never met an atheist who could convince me there is an advantage to being one. What does it offer that my religion can’t? Can you enjoy The Messiah at Christmas and Easter?

    As to the question of whether there is an advantage to being an atheist, that’s a very complex question, one that might require a full length book.

    My wife is a Christian, though she is one of those liberal Christians that many Christians would say is not a “real” Christian.  However, my wife might identify with your question to some extent.  She believes in heaven because belief in a blissful afterlife gives her hope.

    I admit that the idea of an eternal afterlife where there is no pain and no suffering and nothing but happiness sounds really enticing to me.  But the question I pose to myself is this:  Does this heaven really exist?  Or is heaven simply a product of the religious imagination?

    It’s sort of like if your doctor knows you have cancer.  Would you want your doctor to conceal this news from you so that you wouldn’t feel so bad?  Or would you prefer to know that you have cancer so that you can do some things that you have been putting off?

    There’s a book called The Apocalypse of Peter.  It’s one of those books that many of the early Christian churches used in their services but never made it into what we today call the New Testament.

    In the Apocalypse of Peter, Peter is provided visions of the afterlife.

    I find that interesting because if I were given accurate visions of heaven and hell, I would be very interested to know if hell is filled with Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus and atheists and if maybe there are few Jehovah’s Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventists there too.  It would be interesting if there were lots of Buddhists in heaven.

    In other words, it would be interesting to know if “Jesus is the only way” to eternal life in heaven.

    But it seems that anyone who claims to know the answers to these questions is going a bit further than evidence can take him.

    I will say this about atheism.  Maybe this will strike you as a positive or maybe not.

    When I see a Hindu man or a Jewish man or a Buddhist man, I don’t see someone who is “broken” and someone who “needs to accept Jesus.”  I don’t see a person who is “unregenerated” by the Holy Spirit.  I see a human being who is flawed like me.  We are in the same boat.  There are no “chosen people.”  There is no “elect.”

    If this life is all there is, well, okay then.  Thanks for letting me know.  Of course, we can’t know for certain.

    • #522
  13. Red Herring Coolidge
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    Django (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    They point to “natural law”. Some of them do anyway.

    “Natural law” seems to be more along the lines of “kill or be killed.”

     

     

    Secular humanists are living off of last year’s sap of the Judeo-Christian West. But, the tree is dead.

    I think secular humanists are living off of many ideas not found in the Bible.

    Representative government and competitive elections.

    No human being should be allowed to own another human being.

    The Bible didn’t say, “And there shall be a legislative branch, an executive branch and a judicial branch.”

    The Bible didn’t say, “And woman shall have the right to vote.”

    We moved beyond the Bible a long time ago.

    Much of our ideas for government came from the western tradition, from Greece and Rome. Christianity added to those great thinkers. One can’t understand who we are and what our culture is without reading and studying the Bible. You might have moved on from the Bible, if you ever read it to begin with, but we haven’t.

    So, all of us, religious and non-religious people, can celebrate those traditions that are good while rejecting those traditions that are bad.

    The Bible is very large book. Well, it’s actually about 66 books give or take based on which denomination one is part of. People can spend their entire lives reading it and trying to discern its meanngs, debating what this author “really” meant.

    Most people, religious or not, are not Bible experts, nor can they read Koine Greek, which is what most of the old New Testament manuscripts were written in. Translating from Koine Greek into English while retaining all of the meaning is a challenge for New Testament scholars, as is evaluating the difference between the manuscripts and trying to figure out what the original document contained.

    It’s not easy peasy.

    I prefer KJV. People study it all the time. Churches created schools in the US specifically to teach people how to read the Bible. It was used as a text in schools. It is still used in certain western tradition Christian schools. The number of those schools is growing as people escape public schools. 

    • #523
  14. kedavis Coolidge
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    • #524
  15. Red Herring Coolidge
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    HeavyWater (View Comment):

     

     

     

     

     

    As to the question of whether there is an advantage to being an atheist, that’s a very complex question, one that might require a full length book.

    My wife is a Christian, though she is one of those liberal Christians that many Christians would say is not a “real” Christian. However, my wife might identify with your question to some extent. She believes in heaven because belief in a blissful afterlife give her hope.

    I admit that the idea of an eternal afterlife where there is no pain and no suffering and nothing but happiness sounds really enticing to me. But the question I pose to myself is this: Does this heaven really exist? Or is heaven simply a product of the religious imagination?

    ….

    I find that interesting because if I were given accurate visions of heaven and hell, I would be very interested to know if hell is filled with Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus and atheists and if maybe there are few Jehovah’s Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventists there too. It would be interesting if there were lots of Buddhists in heaven.

    In other words, it would be interesting to know if “Jesus is the only way” to eternal life in heaven.

    But it seems that anyone who claims to know the answers to these questions is going a bit further than evidence can take him.

    I will say this about atheism. Maybe this will strike you as a positive or maybe not.

    When I see a Hindu man or a Jewish man or a Buddhist man, I don’t see someone who is “broken” and someone who “needs to accept Jesus.” I don’t see a person who is “unregenerated” by the Holy Spirit. I see a human being who is flawed like me. We are in the same boat. There are no “chosen people.” There is no “elect.”

    If this life is all there is, well, okay then. Thanks for letting me know. Of course, we can’t know for certain.

    Thank you for answering. We all have many questions and there is no way to know the correct answer. I doubt if our brains could even comprehend the answer. However, religion gives me comfort. I don’t need to have proof. That is where faith comes in. I think it is better to live life believing. If I’m wrong, I will never know. On the other hand, living life not believing  then dying and finding out you were wrong, now that could be a problem.

    • #525
  16. kedavis Coolidge
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    As to the question of whether there is an advantage to being an atheist, that’s a very complex question, one that might require a full length book.

    My wife is a Christian, though she is one of those liberal Christians that many Christians would say is not a “real” Christian. However, my wife might identify with your question to some extent. She believes in heaven because belief in a blissful afterlife give her hope.

    I admit that the idea of an eternal afterlife where there is no pain and no suffering and nothing but happiness sounds really enticing to me. But the question I pose to myself is this: Does this heaven really exist? Or is heaven simply a product of the religious imagination?

    ….

    I find that interesting because if I were given accurate visions of heaven and hell, I would be very interested to know if hell is filled with Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus and atheists and if maybe there are few Jehovah’s Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventists there too. It would be interesting if there were lots of Buddhists in heaven.

    In other words, it would be interesting to know if “Jesus is the only way” to eternal life in heaven.

    But it seems that anyone who claims to know the answers to these questions is going a bit further than evidence can take him.

    I will say this about atheism. Maybe this will strike you as a positive or maybe not.

    When I see a Hindu man or a Jewish man or a Buddhist man, I don’t see someone who is “broken” and someone who “needs to accept Jesus.” I don’t see a person who is “unregenerated” by the Holy Spirit. I see a human being who is flawed like me. We are in the same boat. There are no “chosen people.” There is no “elect.”

    If this life is all there is, well, okay then. Thanks for letting me know. Of course, we can’t know for certain.

    Thank you for answering. We all have many questions and there is no way to know the correct answer. I doubt if our brains could even comprehend the answer. However, religion gives me comfort. I don’t need to have proof. That is where faith comes in. I think it is better to live life believing. If I’m wrong, I will never know. On the other hand, living life not believing then dying and finding out you were wrong, now that could be a problem.

     

    • #526
  17. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Yes, indoctrination is teaching and inculcating of doctrine.  For example, indoctrination is what keeps children and adults following the rules of safe gun handling.

    Brainwashing?  I don’t even know how to define it or whether it exists in its original usage, but if it means “washing” it implies removing prior understandings or ways of thinking.  So childhood indoctrination is not brainwashing, it’s brain-filling.

    When writing about ignoring brainwashing I deliberately didn’t get into hypnosis, which is basically suggesting something to someone who is predisposed to accepting and agreeing to suggestion or commands from an authoritative source.  And couple tenths of any population is very susceptible to being told what to think.  And another fifty percent or so is partially subject to being told what to think.  And twenty-five percent or so in immune from being told what to think.

    And apparently hypnosis can be conducted without the subjects consciously knowing it.  Beyond this we get into the realm of being covertly told something over and over and over until it finally takes root, or even people just parrot it to make life easier, and end up incorporating it into their thinking.

    Also, Febreeze was a non-seller as an air freshener.  Then someone came up with an advert campaign to subtlely and non-explicitly link using Febreze to a sense of accomplishment and worth, and sales took off, and it’s still on the market decades later.  I don’t think even this is brainwashing, but it’s certainly operating under the conscious level.

    I once read a book about getting people to want to do what it is that you want them to do by the way you use your words to persuade them, and the justification is that all conversation is getting someone else to see your point of view — if you want them to do something that will benefit them as well as you, what’s wrong with saying something with close to a 100% success?  This was related to sales, I think, but it applies to political speech and propaganda.

    I know a guy who says he’s a Wordsmith and can get anybody to do anything.  And I find this to be revolting.  I know a woman who, after visiting the dentist, thought she needed two or three thousand dollars worth of gum surgery.  I don’t know if she ever got it because she couldn’t afford it, but the dentist’s words could have been intended for both their benefit, but I doubt it.  I think it was meant to sell an unnecessary service.

    Linguistic manipulation seems to involve, repetition, dishonest representations, acceptance of authority, believing something he already wants to believe, and the hearer’s social discomfort with always thinking and going against the tide, and alternatively, wanting to fit in.  But still I wouldn’t call this brainwashing.  It’s psychological manipulation.

    • #527
  18. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    lowtech redneck (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    lowtech redneck (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    I don’t believe in brainwashing period.

    You really think advertisers pay premiums for product placement just so people know they exist, and not to subtly influence their unconscious perceptions and impulses? That repeated exposure to monolithic viewpoints and shibboleths do not lead to unconsidered assumptions, or social coercion does not lead to rationalizations to deal with the cognitive dissonance of speaking and behaving contrary to what you believe?

     

    I think what they do is give you their facts, and if you don’t explore the full facts your free decision is based on limited data. I haven’t bought a new car in twelve years. I’m in need of one now, so auto advertising is registering on my radar. But in the twelve years I didn’t need one, all the auto advertising in the world did not make me buy a new car.

    How is a millisecond of exposure to a coke can a fact? Unless one consciously notices and decides to resist, your mind makes the the connection between that coke can and the protagonist you identify with and root for, making you more likely to purchase coke in the event that your preference for non-cola products, or a specific type of cola, is not already firmly established. Do you really think that preferences for different foods and flavors is decided at birth, free of subtle influences as one grows and socializes within their family and society? The human mind is far more malleable, irrational, and delicate than you suppose. And if not, why do you suppose that preferences in terms of ideas are different from that same dynamic? Logical reasoning and the ‘examined life’ are things that must be taught, not instincts that most humans will adopt on their own.

    So, you believe in that one millisecond of a flash of a can of coke where the eye doesn’t even see it and the brain doesn’t even process it, and you will have a desire for coke?  That’s a theory I heard as a kid.  It’s bogus.  Otherwise we’d all be running out to buy coke and whatever else they micro-flash in front of you.  I would say 90% of pop psychology is bogus, starting with Freud.  Freud was a fraud.  

    • #528
  19. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

     

    I don’t believe in brainwashing period. People make free minded decisions on the facts they have available. I was just giving what some people use as arguments. I have heard the argument that people are brainwashed into religion. People do make adult conversions. Is that brainwashing? Is that indoctrination? Is that coming to a conclusion from personal experience and thought? Frankly I think it’s the latter. But people who don’t understand the conversion and are taken aback from it often attribute it to brainwashing.

    Now you may have a more detailed definition of brainwashing. I don’t know. I’m just using it as common idiom.

    Same here. I never said anyone was brainwashed. And childhood indoctrination is like childhood discipline, it’s necessary and even today still legally permitted! It’s your child, and usually from own your flesh, and you have the right to inculcate within him/her your beliefs. And there is an age of accountability, though I don’t know what that is for any given child, but deliberately choosing a spiritual path and willingly following it is, I think, qualitatively different (but not completely different) from accepting a path or a belief before one has reached the age of reason and responsibility.

    Then again, God knows the faith within the heart of a child, and I don’t.

    Students seem to get “indoctrinated” into Liberalism while in college. I don’t know what a clinical definition of indoctrination would be. Obviously they don’t have the full facts of life and once most get out into the world they drift away. I was pretty Liberal in college. It didn’t take me very long after college to shift to a conservative philosophy, and this was well before my religious conversion. So based on my life, it’s hard for me to understand brainwashing, and what appears to be indoctrination appears to be fluid based on life experiences. So is it really indoctrination?

    Indoctrination is now in k-12.

    Yes, let me summarize what I’ve learned today about indoctrination, and really the key concept, socialization.  I’ll need a clean comment box.

    • #529
  20. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    David C. Broussard (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):
    This Catholic priest said to me something like, “Only the liberals care about the poor.” I realized that not all religious people were politically conservative. I probably knew this already though.

    Many years ago I had a conversation with my Mother In Law and she made a comment to the effect of how can any Christian vote for a Democrat. Later that week I was in Rochester, NY for a wedding and I was at the rehearsal dinner and seated next to another wedding party member. We were talking politics and she described herself as a typical NY liberal and eventually made a comment to the effect of how can any Christian vote for a Republican. After a quick laugh, I told her of my MiL’s statement and she reflected on both and agreed that good people could end up disagreeing on such topics. Christianity and politics don’t align and likely never will in a pluralistic society.

    I’ve had similar experiences.

    • #530
  21. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    HeavyWater (View Comment):
    My non-religious cousins are as kind and generous people as one could imagine.  Similar compliments could be paid to many of my wife’s religious relatives.

    Maybe it’s because their socialization was based on 2000 years of Judeo-Christian culture, whether they realized it or not.

    • #531
  22. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    kedavis (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    On my mother’s side of my family, nearly everyone is a non-believer. On my wife’s side of the family, nearly everyone is a Christian, some more devout than others.

    What struck me about 10 or 15 years ago was how these two families, who live a thousand miles away from each other and have never met, have such similar morals and behavior.

    One summer, one of my wife’s nieces when with her church as a missionary in Africa. That same summer, one of my atheist cousins, who is almost the same age, found a non-religious humanitarian organization that was doing anti-poverty work in Africa. So, this non-religious cousin signed up and flew out to Africa to help out.

    Both of these families pursue education at mostly non-religious universities. That niece I mentioned is getting married next year to a Jewish man. Her Christian parents don’t seem to mind.

    Observing these young people, both religious and non-religious, has made me much more optimistic about the future of America than other conservatives seem to be.

    My non-religious cousins are as kind and generous people as one could imagine. Similar compliments could be paid to many of my wife’s religious relatives.

    Seems like if the religious people are asked where their attitudes/morality come from, they can just point to the Bible. If the atheists are asked the same thing, all they can do is shrug. Or maybe also point to the Bible even if they hate doing it.

    Most atheists I know, if asked where their morality comes from would likely say, “From my intuitions. My intuition tells me that stoning someone to death for gathering wood on the sabbath is morally wrong, even if the God of the Bible commands it.”

    These atheists might admit that their intuitions are falliable. Yet they would also likely view the Bible as fallible having been written by fallible human beings, not a morally perfect God.

    But they might only believe that killing a person is wrong to start with, regardless of what “sin” it’s for, because of theological underpinnings that they go by even if they claim to deny their origins.

    That’s where their “intuition” comes from even if they don’t understand it themselves.

    Ask an ancient Roman if it is moral for gladiators to kill each other for spectacle, and they might say their intuition tells them it is.  He’s not realizing that established social norms have been formed by Judeo-Christian values over two thousand years, and his cousins or whoever are formed in some way from it, whether they believe in it as a religion or not.  Even socialism – the desire to spread the wealth can be rooted in Judeo-Christian values.  However they are ignoring other values.  

    • #532
  23. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Stina (View Comment):
    I don’t think we need to control the institutions to shift the culture back… think of the early church changing their cultures. But it does require a boldness people aren’t ready for. They still have too much to lose… and that’s why they are silent, because they don’t want to LOSE what they have.

    True.  That is our hope.  But from Christ to where Christianity was the dominant religion/world view was close to 300 years.  Are you ready to wait?  We have to out breed them.  

    • #533
  24. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Django (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

     

    On my mother’s side of my family, nearly everyone is a non-believer. On my wife’s side of the family, nearly everyone is a Christian, some more devout than others.

    What struck me about 10 or 15 years ago was how these two families, who live a thousand miles away from each other and have never met, have such similar morals and behavior.

    One summer, one of my wife’s nieces when with her church as a missionary in Africa. That same summer, one of my atheist cousins, who is almost the same age, found a non-religious humanitarian organization that was doing anti-poverty work in Africa. So, this non-religious cousin signed up and flew out to Africa to help out.

    Both of these families pursue education at mostly non-religious universities. That niece I mentioned is getting married next year to a Jewish man. Her Christian parents don’t seem to mind.

    Observing these young people, both religious and non-religious, has made me much more optimistic about the future of America than other conservatives seem to be.

    My non-religious cousins are as kind and generous people as one could imagine. Similar compliments could be paid to many of my wife’s religious relatives.

    Seems like if the religious people are asked where their attitudes/morality come from, they can just point to the Bible. If the atheists are asked the same thing, all they can do is shrug. Or maybe also point to the Bible even if they hate doing it.

    They point to “natural law”. Some of them do anyway.

    There is an entire branch of metaethics devoted to discussing the status of morality, not its content.

    Some philosophers are moral realists. Some believe that morality is socially constructed and what is moral or immoral is determined by the society in which one lives. The moral realists disagree, believing that whether moral claims are correct or incorrect are not dependent on what anyone thinks about a given moral claim.

    Among moral realists, some are natural moral realists while others are non-natural (though not necessarily supernatural) moral realists.

    I think you brought “moral realist” up in another discussion.  I don’t have time to look it up, but if the prefix “meta” is attached, it’s probably along the lines of deconstruction.  It’s a fancy way of undermining traditional morals.  Moral realist sounds a lot like utilitarianism.  Most moralists would not accept that.  Utilitarianism is not a justification for an immoral behavior.

    • #534
  25. Stina Member
    Stina
    @CM

    Manny (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):
    I don’t think we need to control the institutions to shift the culture back… think of the early church changing their cultures. But it does require a boldness people aren’t ready for. They still have too much to lose… and that’s why they are silent, because they don’t want to LOSE what they have.

    True. That is our hope. But from Christ to where Christianity was the dominant religion/world view was close to 300 years. Are you ready to wait? We have to out breed them.

    I don’t really think there’s much choice on it. All I can do is what is right for right now. That’s not simple. How much do I fight for my rights as an American citizen to influence my government vs focusing in on raising and growing the church?

    Sure, so both, but one is having significant diminishing returns. I don’t think I like being a Christian in a “democratic republic” (quotes because not convinced that’s what we have anymore). It’s harder to figure out what is the right tactic.

    • #535
  26. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    So Wikipedia has a decent entry on “indoctrination.”  The first four paragrapghs are thought provoking.

    Indoctrination is the process of inculcating a person with ideas, attitudes, cognitive strategies or professional methodologies (see doctrine).[1]

    Humans are a social animal species inescapably shaped by cultural context, and thus some degree of indoctrination is implicit in the parent–child relationship, and has an essential function in forming stable communities of shared values, and thus should not be regarded as harmful, and is probably good or prosocial.

    The precise boundary between education and indoctrination often lies in the eye of the beholder. Some distinguish indoctrination from education on the basis that the indoctrinated person is expected not to question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned.[2] As such the term may be used pejoratively or as a buzz word, often in the context of political opinions, theology, religious dogma or anti-religious convictions. The word itself came about in its first form in the 1620s as endoctrinate, meaning to teach or to instruct, and was modeled from French or Latin.[3] The word only gained the meaning of imbuing with an idea or opinion in the 1830s.

    The term is closely linked to socialization; however, in common discourse, indoctrination is often associated with negative connotations, while socialization functions as a generic descriptor conveying no specific value or connotation (some[citation needed] choosing to hear socialization as an inherently positive and necessary contribution to social order, others[citation needed] choosing to hear socialization as primarily an instrument of social oppression). Matters of doctrine (and indoctrination) have been contentious and divisive in human society dating back to antiquity. The expression attributed to Titus Lucretius Carus in the first century BCE quod ali cibus est aliis fuat acre venenum (what is food to one, is to others bitter poison) remains pertinent.

    So as I see it, there are levels of socialization.  Parts of what we transfer to our children are basic human social concepts.  Things you might find similar between an American family with say one in the Amazon jungle.  But there are other levels of socialization that starts separating people.  Certainly there are different social values between third world countries and first world countries.  There are different social skills and values between European cultures and non-European cultures.  There are different social skills and values between the United States and say a European country.  Even within the US there are differences in values: California/NY, urban/rural, left/right, Protestant/Catholic, and so on.  Each of these are passed on doctrines that form our children into adults.  Many of these “doctrines” are not even articulated.  The children just pick it up.  

    So when we are debating with, say, the left, we are debating on a similar plane, that is, a plane of American values.  (Yeah, I know, that’s questionable on their part) You can’t argue about free speech with a guy from Amazon jungle.  You’re just on different planes.

    Continued…

    • #536
  27. Django Member
    Django
    @Django

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Django (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    David C. Broussard (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):
    Morals rooted in ancient religious texts and religious theology can result in good or bad morality.

    This is true, but has its roots in the culture that spawned the rule in the first place. Exodus and Deuteronomy set forth many rules that we ignore today (earing pork or shellfish, or wearing clothes made of mixed materials), but they made sense in a time when the Jews were living in the desert and doing some of those things protected their health overall, though I have no idea what the practical use of the mixed fabric was. For the Bedouin culture the adultery issue was one that sparked constant strife and killing. The solution was brutal and shouldn’t apply today, but it was created to solve a real problem.

    The point that religious based rules are more difficult to change is valid, but doesn’t invalidate the reality that the easiest way to gain a common set of beliefs and rules is via religion.

    On my mother’s side of my family, nearly everyone is a non-believer. On my wife’s side of the family, nearly everyone is a Christian, some more devout than others.

     

    Observing these young people, both religious and non-religious, has made me much more optimistic about the future of America than other conservatives seem to be.

    My non-religious cousins are as kind and generous people as one could imagine. Similar compliments could be paid to many of my wife’s religious relatives.

    Seems like if the religious people are asked where their attitudes/morality come from, they can just point to the Bible. If the atheists are asked the same thing, all they can do is shrug. Or maybe also point to the Bible even if they hate doing it.

    They point to “natural law”. Some of them do anyway.

    There is an entire branch of metaethics devoted to discussing the status of morality, not its content.

    Some philosophers are moral realists. Some believe that morality is socially constructed and what is moral or immoral is determined by the society in which one lives. The moral realists disagree, believing that whether moral claims are correct or incorrect are not dependent on what anyone thinks about a given moral claim.

    Among moral realists, some are natural moral realists while others are non-natural (though not necessarily supernatural) moral realists.

    I’m not familiar with that view. My use of the term “natural law” comes from a long treatise I read years ago. There was a long discussion of the terms “divine law”, “physical law”, civil law”, and “natural law”. IIRC, natural law was based on an attempt to discover basic values that are common across all human societies. Not unlike the understanding of physical laws, it was based on observation and formalization.

    • #537
  28. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    What’s the difference between indoctrination and socialization?  I think there is a shade subtle difference that one could express, but it doesn’t seem worth it to try to find the perfect words.  The difference is in connotation and attitude to what you’re referring to.  I would say they are pretty much synonymous.

    So the left has discovered they can indoctrinate  children through education.  You can shape their developing values when they are most absorbing of social ideas.  Until recently my perception has been that schools respected most of the parents wishes when it came to k-12 children.  Something in the last say fifteen years has changed.  (Why does it always feel this downward trend started with Obama?)  Most teachers seem to accepted the left side the US values system.  And for some reason they now feel compelled to push it on the kids.  I think we need to be vigilant with the education system.

    I will also say that I don’t think that whatever the kids pick up has to be permanent.  Go spend a little time in a foreign country and you almost start forgetting your Americanism.  Those socialization values are fluid.  We have to educate the public constantly and stand up for our values.

    This also substantiates my belief that laws instill values.  Abortion is immoral, any way you look at it, especially from natural law and science, but the legalization of abortion over time has instilled a different value, making it appear moral.  Gay marriage is not normal.  No one believed it for thousands of years.  Make it legal and it now seems to be normal.  Same thing with transgenderism.

    Anyway, I’m under the weather tonight, so I’m going to call it an early night.

    • #538
  29. Stina Member
    Stina
    @CM

    Manny (View Comment):

    What’s the difference between indoctrination and socialization? I think there is a shade subtle difference that one could express, but it doesn’t seem worth it to try to find the perfect words. The difference is in connotation and attitude to what you’re referring to. I would say they are pretty much synonymous.

    So the left has discovered they can indoctrinate children through education. You can shape their developing values when they are most absorbing of social ideas. Until recently my perception has been that schools respected most of the parents wishes when it came to k-12 children. Something in the last say fifteen years has changed. (Why does it always feel this downward trend started with Obama?) Most teachers seem to accepted the left side the US values system. And for some reason they now feel compelled to push it on the kids. I think we need to be vigilant with the education system.

    I will also say that I don’t think that whatever the kids pick up has to be permanent. Go spend a little time in a foreign country and you almost start forgetting your Americanism. Those socialization values are fluid. We have to educate the public constantly and stand up for our values.

    This also substantiates my belief that laws instill values. Abortion is immoral, any way you look at it, especially from natural law and science, but the legalization of abortion over time has instilled a different value, making it appear moral. Gay marriage is not normal. No one believed it for thousands of years. Make it legal and it now seems to be normal. Same thing with transgenderism.

    Anyway, I’m under the weather tonight, so I’m going to call it an early night.

    It feels like it started with Obama because that’s when Millenials started coming of age. I was 24 in 2008. That’s when the social pathologies of my generation started exiting universities and entered the “real world”.

    • #539
  30. Red Herring Coolidge
    Red Herring
    @EHerring

    Stina (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    What’s the difference between indoctrination and socialization? I think there is a shade subtle difference that one could express, but it doesn’t seem worth it to try to find the perfect words. The difference is in connotation and attitude to what you’re referring to. I would say they are pretty much synonymous.

    So the left has discovered they can indoctrinate children through education. You can shape their developing values when they are most absorbing of social ideas. Until recently my perception has been that schools respected most of the parents wishes when it came to k-12 children. Something in the last say fifteen years has changed. (Why does it always feel this downward trend started with Obama?) Most teachers seem to accepted the left side the US values system. And for some reason they now feel compelled to push it on the kids. I think we need to be vigilant with the education system.

    I will also say that I don’t think that whatever the kids pick up has to be permanent. Go spend a little time in a foreign country and you almost start forgetting your Americanism. Those socialization values are fluid. We have to educate the public constantly and stand up for our values.

    This also substantiates my belief that laws instill values. Abortion is immoral, any way you look at it, especially from natural law and science, but the legalization of abortion over time has instilled a different value, making it appear moral. Gay marriage is not normal. No one believed it for thousands of years. Make it legal and it now seems to be normal. Same thing with transgenderism.

    Anyway, I’m under the weather tonight, so I’m going to call it an early night.

    It feels like it started with Obama because that’s when Millenials started coming of age. I was 24 in 2008. That’s when the social pathologies of my generation started exiting universities and entered the “real world”.

    It started over 100 years ago.

    • #540
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