The Future of the West – Through Children

 

Elon Musk has said that the earth is basically empty, and he is right. We could fit the entire world’s population in New Zealand without exceeding the population density of Manhattan.

The problem is that richer countries are in deep, deep demographic decline. Here is Japan’s population pyramid (2020):

This is deeply troubled. The average Japanese woman is too old to procreate.

The healthiest Western country (in terms of population growth) is Israel.

Check out this website and enter your own country to see the results. Demographics is, at some point, destiny.

The alternative is to invite immigrants and hope they assimilate (the path most of Europe has taken to overcome its own domestic population crises). That is a risky proposition, to say the least. And one that countries like Japan and Korea are quite unlikely to adopt.

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  1. Henry Castaigne Member
    Henry Castaigne
    @HenryCastaigne

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):

    Hang On (View Comment):

    Ekosj (View Comment):

    There is a great article by David P Goldman that addresses this issue and the economic impact. It’s from 2009 but still rings true as we are still living through the unwinding of the easy-money policies out in place in an attempt to avoid the consequences of the financial crisis.

    https://www.firstthings.com/article/2009/05/demographics-depression

    If capital markets derive from the cycle of human life, what happens if the cycle goes wrong? Investors may be unreasonably panicked about the future, and governments can allay this panic by guaranteeing bank deposits, increasing incentives to invest, and so forth. But something different is in play when investors are reasonably panicked. What if there really is something wrong with our future“if the next generation fails to appear in sufficient numbers? The answer is that we get poorer.

     

    Do we get poorer as result of demographic collapse? If the terms of measurement are per capita income, the aftermath of great plague of the 13th century would suggest otherwise. Farm labor wages increased dramatically as a result of the scarcity of labor. That was a real demographic collapse.

    The same thing is occurring with the retirement of the boomers.

    Who do you plan to have feeding you and changing your bedsheets in the nursing home?

     

    I’m betting robots. 

    • #31
  2. Mark Camp Member
    Mark Camp
    @MarkCamp

    Hang On (View Comment):
    Do we get poorer as result of demographic collapse? If the terms of measurement are per capita income, the aftermath of great plague of the 13th century would suggest otherwise. Farm labor wages increased dramatically as a result of the scarcity of labor.

    Don’t confuse wealth with money.

    • #32
  3. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    DonG (CAGW is a Scam) (View Comment):

    iWe: The problem is that richer countries are in deep, deep demographic decline.

    Why is that a problem? Please be specific. Don’t give us the Social Security is a Ponzi scheme line, because the fix for a Ponzi scheme is not “find more suckers”.

    Addressed among other issues in the Greatest Interview On Any Subject, Ever, with Mark Steyn on the Northern Alliance Radio Network.

     

    https://www.adrive.com/public/RaM8Mj/NARN%2012-02-06%20NARN%201%20Hour%202%20Mark%20Steyn.mp3

    • #33
  4. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    BDB (View Comment):

    DonG (CAGW is a Scam) (View Comment):

    iWe: The problem is that richer countries are in deep, deep demographic decline.

    Why is that a problem? Please be specific. Don’t give us the Social Security is a Ponzi scheme line, because the fix for a Ponzi scheme is not “find more suckers”.

    “The future belongs to those who show up.”

    If the future doesn’t concern you personally, then I cannot imagine why any aspects of the future would.

    ibid.

    • #34
  5. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    I am not too worried about numbers but about quality. Has anyone here seen Idiocracy?

    In order for there to be those capable of leading etc, there still have to be bodies produced.  The rest is “programming.”

    • #35
  6. iWe Coolidge
    iWe
    @iWe


    If shrinking the denominator is the goal, we should be able to shoot ourselves into wealth.  Productivity as a zero-sum game is the road to Marxism.

    That is how Stalin and Hitler thought: fewer people must mean more wealth for the rest. They failed to understand that it is people who create the wealth! 

    • #36
  7. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    iWe:

    The problem is that richer countries are in deep, deep demographic decline. 

    Why is it a problem for anybody else?

    • #37
  8. E. Kent Golding Moderator
    E. Kent Golding
    @EKentGolding

    Phil Turmel (View Comment):

    This is enhanced by the older generations’ expressions of regret over their lack of fertility.

    Pressuring the young ones to deliver grandchildren has ALWAYS worked.

    • #38
  9. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Marry. Have babies. Homeschool them. Don’t leave out the homeschooling.

    • #39
  10. BDB Inactive
    BDB
    @BDB

    Zafar (View Comment):

    iWe:

    The problem is that richer countries are in deep, deep demographic decline.

    Why is it a problem for anybody else?

    Got me — what do I care?

    Less glib answer:

    Poorer countires gaining proportionally over richer countries will not make them richer.  Importing things they cannot make or processes they cannot sustain from richer countries are the key to wealth.

    • #40
  11. aardo vozz Member
    aardo vozz
    @aardovozz

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    I am not too worried about numbers but about quality. Has anyone here seen Idiocracy?

    Seen Idiocracy? I think we’re living in it.😬😬😬

     

    • #41
  12. Henry Castaigne Member
    Henry Castaigne
    @HenryCastaigne

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    I am not too worried about numbers but about quality. Has anyone here seen Idiocracy?

    In order for there to be those capable of leading etc, there still have to be bodies produced. The rest is “programming.”

    No. Fifty-sixty percent of what people are has to do with their genetics as I’ve said constantly. I am worried that low I.Q. and anti-social people are irresponsibly outbreeding the intelligent and the sensible. 

    • #42
  13. Henry Castaigne Member
    Henry Castaigne
    @HenryCastaigne

    BDB (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    iWe:

    The problem is that richer countries are in deep, deep demographic decline.

    Why is it a problem for anybody else?

    Got me — what do I care?

    Less glib answer:

    Poorer countires gaining proportionally over richer countries will not make them richer. Importing things they cannot make or processes they cannot sustain from richer countries are the key to wealth.

    I don’t quite follow can you elaborate? 

    • #43
  14. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    BDB (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    iWe:

    The problem is that richer countries are in deep, deep demographic decline.

    Why is it a problem for anybody else?

    Got me — what do I care?

    Less glib answer:

    Poorer countires gaining proportionally over richer countries will not make them richer.

    It will make no difference, I suspect.  Rich countries will remain rich, their demographics may change, but they’ll still be rich.  At the end of the day economies need brains and bodies, and they don’t care what colour these come in or what religious beliefs they have.  Which will put some (ahistorical) noses out of joint, but hey, everybody’s a critic.

    Importing things they cannot make or processes they cannot sustain from richer countries are the key to wealth.

    Sure, but more importantly exporting things that they can make more competitively.

     

    • #44
  15. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Zafar (View Comment):

    BDB (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    iWe:

    The problem is that richer countries are in deep, deep demographic decline.

    Why is it a problem for anybody else?

    Got me — what do I care?

    Less glib answer:

    Poorer countires gaining proportionally over richer countries will not make them richer.

    It will make no difference, I suspect. Rich countries will remain rich, their demographics may change, but they’ll still be rich. At the end of the day economies need brains and bodies, and they don’t care what colour these come in or what religious beliefs they have. Which will put some (ahistorical) noses out of joint, but hey, everybody’s a critic.

    Do you really think people whose best “brains” have created the Taliban etc as their highest examples, would be capable of – or interested in – maintaining the kind of civilization and technology they have essentially just been leaching from for decades or centuries?

    Where is the Palestinian iPhone?

    • #45
  16. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Do you really think people whose best “brains” have created the Taliban etc as their highest examples, would be capable of – or interested in – maintaining the kind of civilization and technology they have essentially just been leaching from for decades or centuries?

    History is very long.  Selecting a civilisation’s highest or lowest point to draw an axiomatic conclusion about it is…unwise.  Unless one is invested in aggrandising oneself?

    Where is the Palestinian iPhone?

    I tried calling but it was occupied.

    • #46
  17. Michael Collins Member
    Michael Collins
    @MichaelCollins

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    I am not too worried about numbers but about quality. Has anyone here seen Idiocracy?

    You might enjoy reading The Marching Morons by C. M. Kornbluth.  I suspect that this  story inspired the movie, but I don’t know that for sure.

    • #47
  18. Henry Castaigne Member
    Henry Castaigne
    @HenryCastaigne

    Zafar (View Comment):
    At the end of the day economies need brains and bodies, and they don’t care what colour these come in or what religious beliefs they have.  Which will put some (ahistorical) noses out of joint, but hey, everybody’s a critic.

    Absolutely 100 percent wrong. Color doesn’t matter but religion and culture does. Rich countries became wealthy because their cultures and religions allowed the generation of wealth, not because they stole from weaker and poorer countries. (Though rich countries did do alot of stealing as well.)  

    Ethiopian and Nigerian immigrants tend to leave the negative parts of their culture behind and become patriotic and successful Americans while Somalis for some reason tend to grab onto the worst parts of their culture. I want a wall and I want to be judgey about what immigrants come to America but I have no interest in judging on something as literally skin-deep as color. 

    • #48
  19. Henry Castaigne Member
    Henry Castaigne
    @HenryCastaigne

    Zafar (View Comment):
    History is very long.  Selecting a civilisation’s highest or lowest point to draw an axiomatic conclusion about it is…unwise.  Unless one is invested in aggrandising oneself?

    If Britain had not invaded India. Would the Mughal Empire have made Bollywood, the Indian tech billionaires or have given your ancestors the opportunity to learn how to read? 

    • #49
  20. Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patriot) Member
    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patriot)
    @ArizonaPatriot

    iWe (View Comment):


    If shrinking the denominator is the goal, we should be able to shoot ourselves into wealth. Productivity as a zero-sum game is the road to Marxism.

    That is how Stalin and Hitler thought: fewer people must mean more wealth for the rest. They failed to understand that it is people who create the wealth!

    I don’t think that this is true, about Hitler and Stalin.  Hitler’s Germany had pro-family policies, and the population of the USSR grew quite a bit under Stalin, I think.

    • #50
  21. Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patriot) Member
    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patriot)
    @ArizonaPatriot

    Regarding Israel: Does anyone know of an explanation for Israeli demographics?  Do they have pro-family policies that might be adopted elsewhere?  Is it the strong nationalism of the Israeli people?  It doesn’t seem to be purely a matter of faith, as iWe reported in #28 that the birth rate in Israel is healthy even among non-religious Jews.

    • #51
  22. Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patriot) Member
    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patriot)
    @ArizonaPatriot

    More generally: What do you all think is the explanation for the decline in birth rates in almost all advanced “Western” countries — which includes some in the East, such as South Korea and Japan?

    I recall Jordan Peterson saying that the education of women leads to, first, economic growth, and then, second, demographic decline.

    My own suspicion is that feminism has much to do with it.  Economic opportunity for women competes with motherhood, resulting in fewer children for those who have any, and probably a larger number of women remaining childless.  Tragically, some postpone having children in order to pursue a career, thinking that they will be able to be mothers later, and in some cases this is not correct, as female infertility increases significantly with age.

    It also seems plausible that the growth in the proportion of homosexuals in the population would have an effect on the birth rate, though I don’t know the size of this effect yet.  The data that I’ve seen indicates that homosexuality, and other perverted self-identification, has increased greatly between my generation (Gen X) and the next (Millennials), and even more for the most recent generation reaching adulthood (Gen Z).

    • #52
  23. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    More generally: What do you all think is the explanation for the decline in birth rates in almost all advanced “Western” countries — which includes some in the East, such as South Korea and Japan?

    I recall Jordan Peterson saying that the education of women leads to, first, economic growth, and then, second, demographic decline.

    My own suspicion is that feminism has much to do with it. Economic opportunity for women competes with motherhood, resulting in fewer children for those who have any, and probably a larger number of women remaining childless. Tragically, some postpone having children in order to pursue a career, thinking that they will be able to be mothers later, and in some cases this is not correct, as female infertility increases significantly with age.

    It also seems plausible that the growth in the proportion of homosexuals in the population would have an effect on the birth rate, though I don’t know the size of this effect yet. The data that I’ve seen indicates that homosexuality, and other perverted self-identification, has increased greatly between my generation (Gen X) and the next (Millennials), and even more for the most recent generation reaching adulthood (Gen Z).

    I suspect that people concentrating in larger, more-crowded cities is part of it.  Which explains lowering fertility in places like Japan where many people “look forward to” living in a tiny perhaps one-room apartment and working until they die.

    Israel has less of that, at least for now.

    One part of the problem I’ve mentioned before is that new cities used to spring up organically, at a crossroads or a confluence of rivers etc.  We should be doing more of that.  But now, we seem intent on continuing to cram more people into existing cities, because people expect so many things to be in place already – power, water, sewer, high-speed internet… – which would require some pre-planning and advance construction for new cities before people would begin to move into them.

    And people going into already-cramped cities and renting a small apartment for a huge amount of money, have less ability or incentive to have children.

    • #53
  24. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    iWe (View Comment):


    If shrinking the denominator is the goal, we should be able to shoot ourselves into wealth. Productivity as a zero-sum game is the road to Marxism.

    That is how Stalin and Hitler thought: fewer people must mean more wealth for the rest. They failed to understand that it is people who create the wealth!

    I don’t think that this is true, about Hitler and Stalin. Hitler’s Germany had pro-family policies, and the population of the USSR grew quite a bit under Stalin, I think.

    But did they understand that the quantity of wealth in the world is not fixed–that wealth is the product of human activity?

    • #54
  25. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    Regarding Israel: Does anyone know of an explanation for Israeli demographics? Do they have pro-family policies that might be adopted elsewhere? Is it the strong nationalism of the Israeli people? It doesn’t seem to be purely a matter of faith, as iWe reported in #28 that the birth rate in Israel is healthy even among non-religious Jews.

    An anecdote I heard on a podcast once: A young Israeli was asked about this and answered that her country was still a cause.

    • #55
  26. BDB Inactive
    BDB
    @BDB

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    BDB (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    iWe:

    The problem is that richer countries are in deep, deep demographic decline.

    Why is it a problem for anybody else?

    Got me — what do I care?

    Less glib answer:

    Poorer countires gaining proportionally over richer countries will not make them richer. Importing things they cannot make or processes they cannot sustain from richer countries are the key to wealth.

    I don’t quite follow can you elaborate?

    In order from least controversial:

    1. Without some level of civilization, adding people just produces the Malthusian trap.  It takes a mastery of post-hunter-gatherer technologies and social structures to advance into subsistence farming, and much more to get beyond it.  While true hunter-gatherer society is now reduced to two or three areas which might as well be museums, there are a lot of coutries spanning the lower ends of the spectrum.  So “merely” adding people just produces starvation, episodic at first with vicissitudes of the environment, and eventually chronic until the population crashes to an easily sustainable level.
    2. The same applies to cultural capital, as Sowell points out.  Everybody has a system of “courts”, and many a country calls itself a “Republic”, but this is in many cases flat-out deception or at best, uh, aspirational.  Our own case increasingly so!  But still, we are at or near the top of the spectrum.  Things are getting rough all over as Big Tech and Big Government get it on.
    3. The same applies to technology.  This one is obvious, but you still find Luddites who think that a return to subsistence farming is a Good Thing ™.
    4. Cultural Capital II:  Part of a civilization is stored in human habits, and the traditions which make up a culture, passed down through the culture, are what enable individuals to function in that culture.  Diversity is NOT strength when it means that cultures clash on the streets — which they WILL do if one culture is incapable of functioning in the other’s civilization.
    5. Genes I: Intelligence is heritable and is highly correlated with most good outcomes.  There are side effects — consult a doctor if your intelligence melts your brain.
    6. Genes II: We used to think that evolution moved glacially because our record of it was bones, which indeed change slowly.  Recent (the past fifty years) studies show that evolution is recent, regional, and rapid.  Behaviors, attitudes, opinions, even “politics” are to some extent heritable.  Nobody is “destined” to vote one way vice another, or to steal vice work, but statistically, it holds.  There is no magic dividing line between bones, brains, and behavior.  Murray’s Coming Apart is worse than it sounds: we are not only importing an underclass — we are also breeding one.

    Randomness or “luck” plays a part in everything, but poor countries now are not generally poor because Big Europe came and took their stuff — who came and took Europe’s?  Transplanting our institutions abroad does not work.  Why not?

    • #56
  27. BDB Inactive
    BDB
    @BDB

    Zafar (View Comment):
    At the end of the day economies need brains and bodies, and they don’t care what colour these come in or what religious beliefs they have.  Which will put some (ahistorical) noses out of joint, but hey, everybody’s a critic.

    I agree with this to an extent, but not into blank-slate-ism, which *may* be where you are.

    Heaven knows, everybody is good at something, and most people are better at many things than I am.

    • #57
  28. iWe Coolidge
    iWe
    @iWe

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    iWe (View Comment):


    If shrinking the denominator is the goal, we should be able to shoot ourselves into wealth. Productivity as a zero-sum game is the road to Marxism.

    That is how Stalin and Hitler thought: fewer people must mean more wealth for the rest. They failed to understand that it is people who create the wealth!

    I don’t think that this is true, about Hitler and Stalin. Hitler’s Germany had pro-family policies, and the population of the USSR grew quite a bit under Stalin, I think.

    Mein Kampf:

    The annual increase of population in Germany amounts to almost 900,000 souls. The difficulties of providing for this army of new citizens must grow from year to year and must finally lead to a catastrophe, unless ways and means are found which will forestall the danger of misery and hunger.

    It is certainly true that the productivity of the soil can be increased within certain limits; but only within defined limits and not indefinitely. By increasing the productive powers of the soil it will be possible to balance the effect of a surplus birth-rate in Germany for a certain period of time, without running any danger of hunger. But we have to face the fact that the general standard of living is rising more quickly than even the birth rate. The requirements of food and clothing are becoming greater from year to year and are out of proportion to those of our ancestors of, let us say, a hundred years ago. It would, therefore, be a mistaken view that every increase in the productive powers of the soil will supply the requisite conditions for an increase in the population.

    The underlying argument was that the more natural resources and the fewer the people, the richer the remaining people would be. This is also a primary reason behind Stalin’s Holodomor, which killed millions of Ukrainians. Which led, by the way, to markets in which people sold other people for food:

    The Holodomor: Stalin’s Genocidal Famine that Starved Millions in the 1930s

    These were both engineered by the leadership who took on both the ethics of eugenics and coupled them with Malthusian logic about the fixed nature of resources.

    • #58
  29. BDB Inactive
    BDB
    @BDB

    Zafar (View Comment):

    BDB (View Comment):

    Importing things they cannot make or processes they cannot sustain from richer countries are the key to wealth.

    Sure, but more importantly exporting things that they can make more competitively.

    Yes. 

    • #59
  30. Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patriot) Member
    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patriot)
    @ArizonaPatriot

    BDB (View Comment):

    . . .

    In order from least controversial:

    1. Without some level of civilization, adding people just produces the Malthusian trap. It takes a mastery of post-hunter-gatherer technologies and social structures to advance into subsistence farming, and much more to get beyond it. While true hunter-gatherer society is now reduced to two or three areas which might as well be museums, there are a lot of coutries spanning the lower ends of the spectrum. So “merely” adding people just produces starvation, episodic at first with vicissitudes of the environment, and eventually chronic until the population crashes to an easily sustainable level.
    2. The same applies to cultural capital, as Sowell points out. Everybody has a system of “courts”, and many a country calls itself a “Republic”, but this is in many cases flat-out deception or at best, uh, aspirational. Our own case increasingly so! But still, we are at or near the top of the spectrum. Things are getting rough all over as Big Tech and Big Government get it on.
    3. The same applies to technology. This one is obvious, but you still find Luddites who think that a return to subsistence farming is a Good Thing ™.
    4. Cultural Capital II: Part of a civilization is stored in human habits, and the traditions which make up a culture, passed down through the culture, are what enable individuals to function in that culture. Diversity is NOT strength when it means that cultures clash on the streets — which they WILL do if one culture is incapable of functioning in the other’s civilization.
    5. Genes I: Intelligence is heritable and is highly correlated with most good outcomes. There are side effects — consult a doctor if your intelligence melts your brain.
    6. Genes II: We used to think that evolution moved glacially because our record of it was bones, which indeed change slowly. Recent (the past fifty years) studies show that evolution is recent, regional, and rapid. Behaviors, attitudes, opinions, even “politics” are to some extent heritable. Nobody is “destined” to vote one way vice another, or to steal vice work, but statistically, it holds. There is no magic dividing line between bones, brains, and behavior. Murray’s Coming Apart is worse than it sounds: we are not only importing an underclass — we are also breeding one.

    Randomness or “luck” plays a part in everything, but poor countries now are not generally poor because Big Europe came and took their stuff — who came and took Europe’s? Transplanting our institutions abroad does not work. Why not?

    Which institutions?  I think that Anglo-Saxon Protestantism was a key element in the success of our institutions, and it was generally not transplanted abroad.

    Japan does seem to be an exception.  Western institutions worked well in Japan for many decades.  I suspect that traditional Japanese cultural practices were quite similar to Protestantism in many practices, though for different reasons.

    • #60
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