Are We the Baddies, Part 2: US Meddling in Ukraine and Crimea

 

I’ve been holding out on you since September when this issue of Hillsdale’s Imprimis came out: Complications of the Ukraine War, by Christopher Caldwell, senior fellow at the Claremont Institute. Now that I have time to clear out my tabs, you get to learn what I did back then. 

If you had to give a one-word answer to what this Ukraine War is about, you would probably say Crimea. Crimea is a peninsula jutting out into the middle of the Black Sea. It’s where the great powers of Europe fought the bloodiest war of the century between Napoleon and World War I. It is a defensive superweapon. The country that controls it dominates the Black Sea and can project its military force into Europe, the Middle East, and even the steppes of Eurasia. And since the 1700s, that country has been Russia. Crimea has been the home of Russia’s warm water fleet for 250 years. It is the key to Russia’s southern defenses.

I admit, I’m not following events in Ukraine as closely as many here on Ricochet. But, as I understand it, Ukraine is committed to fighting not just to repel the Russian invasion, but to recover Crimea. This is a solid guarantee for the prolongation of the war indefinitely. Russia simply cannot — will not — let go of the all-important strategic peninsula of Crimea.

Much of the turmoil began under the Bush 43 administration — surprise! — with US election interference, and exacerbated by the Obama administration — surprise, surprise!! — by meddling in the trade deal negotiated between Ukraine and the EU, and vehemently opposed by Russia. 

The previous year (2013), Ukrainian diplomats had negotiated a free trade deal with the European Union that would have cut out Russia. Russia then outbid the EU with its own deal—which included $15 billion in incentives for Ukraine and continued naval basing rights for Russia—and Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovich signed it. U.S.-backed protests broke out in Kiev’s main square, the Maidan, and in cities across the country. According to a speech made at the time by a State Department official, the U.S. had by that time spent $5 billion to influence Ukraine’s politics. And, considering that Ukraine then had a lower per capita income than Cuba, Jamaica, or Namibia, $5 billion could buy a lot of influence. An armory was raided, shootings near the Maidan left dozens of protesters dead, Yanukovich fled the country, and the U.S. played the central role in setting up a successor government.

The other tidbit that stands out in this piece is this:

 In a referendum in January 1991, 93 percent of the citizens of Crimea voted for autonomy from Ukraine. In 1994, 83 percent voted for the establishment of a dual Crimean/Russian citizenship. We’ll leave aside the referendum held after the Russians arrived in 2014, which resulted in a similar percentage but remains controversial.

As long as Ukraine insists on controlling Crimea and even the Russophilic eastern Ukraine, I don’t see a possible resolution to the conflict. I oppose another (Bush) forever war and believe if the US meddles further, it should be to force Ukraine to the negotiating table. For its own sake, as well as ours.

 

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  1. MiMac Thatcher
    MiMac
    @MiMac

    DrewInWisconsin, Oik (View Comment):

    A primer for the geostrategically illiterate 

    • #121
  2. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):
    Good point. I can visualize both sides violating just war but I can’t visualize both being just. I don’t know how that could be. All I can tell you I have not seen any Catholic in religious hierarchy supporting Russia. Just the opposite.

    Just war doctrine isn’t claiming both sides are expected to act in justice. It’s the side fighting on defense that has prudential/moral choices to make. See comment above.

    Are you saying that just war excludes self defense?  Or that just war requires those in self defense to use proportionate means?

    If you are saying the first, I do not believe you are interpreting just war correctly.  If you are saying the second I am in agreement.

    From Wikipedia on just war:

    Probability of success
    Arms may not be used in a futile cause or in a case where disproportionate measures are required to achieve success;

    OK, I can understand a futile cause if it is just suicidal, but defensive battle is actually quite sustainable even when substantially outnumbered.

    Ultimately I don’t understand the point.  Ukraine is not fighting a futile cause.  Indeed they are actually winning.  Nor are they using disproportionate means.  The only side that is fighting an unjust war is Russia.

    • #122
  3. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    2309 The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:

    – the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;

    – all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;

    – there must be serious prospects of success;

    – the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.

     

    These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the “just war” doctrine.

     

    The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good.

    What that would imply is that one does not have a right to defend oneself. I do not think that applies to a defensive situation. It would not be reasonable otherwise.

    It states up front it is “for legitimate defense by military force.” It may start out reasonable, but at some point the costs are too high and even surrender is preferred to save lives. Yes, even living under tyranny, which falls under “all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective.”

    This is very uncomfortable, even for me (was WWII a “just war” under these terms?), but you have to ask yourself, do I have a limit on the killing and dying? What is the prudential judgment (and there is one, although difficult to discern due to the complexity)? And do I trust that God will save me and have me live in the freedom of the Beatific Vision one day, or do I insist on it in the here and now?

    One problem there is that it would seem to encourage the aggressors. If they’re brutal enough, you’ll give up. How do women feel about applying that standard to rape?

    Ask Saint Maria Goretti.

    Self defense is an upheld Catholic right.  Maria Goretti tried to defend herself.  Her sainthood is based on her struggle to keep her purity and her forgiveness of her murderer, not on openly being sacrificed. She did not do that.

    • #123
  4. Unsk Member
    Unsk
    @Unsk

    Never fear my follow righteous Ukraine War supporters -there those truly evil conspiracy theorists here who want to look at those so-called “revelations” at Twitter and apply those wholly unfounded accusations to the support for the Ukraine War!

    These People! They want to say this alleged boogeyman  Intelligence Agency/Military/Big Media /Big Tech/Woke Corporatist America/Deep State Leviathan is using everything at their disposal to not only surveil and censor our every move but to enslave us as well. And now ,OMG! They are saying  those are the same people that are the driving force behind the Ukraine War?

    They are saying ridiculously again that our wonderful Authotitative Media is feeding us some lines of absolute bull crap like they said that they fed us about thr 2020 election, the Russian Hoax, J6, the origins of COVID, the Pandrmic lockdowns, ivermectin, the health benefits of the Jab , the 2022 Election and soon the coup de grace – the mandatory digital currency con to finally enslave us all-; no they wouldn’t be feeding us the same nonsense about the Ukraine War; would they?

    I mean look how our Supreme Leader laid out for us in exacting detail and impenetrable logic the strategic benefits of this war and exactly what our goals were? OK, well maybe not, but isn’t stumbling towards a nuclear war for some nonsensically defined reason a good thing?

    Just look at the benefits of this war besides making Ukraine a living hell, we finally as Klaus wanted , shredded that stupid post Breton Woods Trade and Financial architecture that benefited not only us but billions around the world for over a half century, it we also finally jettisoned so many silly Allies  like Saudi Arabia, Egypt and so many others creating a rival trading bloc making things like energy and food so much more expensive happily impoverishing billions, we are making great progress destroying the dollar as the world’s reserve currency, impoverished much of Europe and soon America,and finally we have cut America’s stature, influence and trustworthiness down to size several really big notches. Quite the accomplishment I would say according to the Right People! Oh! Klaus and Georgie Soros are so pleased.

    But our job is not yet done! We haven’t totally destroyed Ukraine – you we have to destroy it to save it ya know- and we can still start a nuclear conflagration!

    Yes there is still work to be done!

    • #124
  5. Duane Oyen Member
    Duane Oyen
    @DuaneOyen

    I have liked Caldwell in the past, but here I am completely off the train.  Why?  His big authorities, “experts” are 1) George Kennan, the most overrated foreign policy “guru” of the 20th century who opposed every Reagan decision RE the USSR with every fiber of his Foggy Bottom being; 2) John Mearsheimer, the anti-semitic pro-Russia prof who has been wrong about every issue since 1990; and 3) William Burns, Biden’s CIA hack, who is Thomas Friedman’s favorite State Department hack.

    When I see a KGB guy carping non-stop about needing lebensraum to his South and committing genocide to help achieve it, then the latter-day Charles Lindberghs join in the isolationist chorus, I get concerned that we are repeating the 1930’s in just as stupid a fashion.

    Moderately intelligent pundits like Tucker Carlson and Lee Smith have lost their minds, I will modestly and conservatively assert.  Put me down as a dissident to the thesis of this post. 

    • #125
  6. DrewInWisconsin, Oik Member
    DrewInWisconsin, Oik
    @DrewInWisconsin

    BDB (View Comment):

    I’ll answer for $1000, Alex — “What is Hillary’s superpower?”

    Let’s ask Ukraine, since the Clinton Foundation was deeply in bed with them.

    • #126
  7. DrewInWisconsin, Oik Member
    DrewInWisconsin, Oik
    @DrewInWisconsin

    MiMac (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Oik (View Comment):

     

    A primer for the geostrategically illiterate

    What can I say, I hate “country-last” globalists.

    • #127
  8. DrewInWisconsin, Oik Member
    DrewInWisconsin, Oik
    @DrewInWisconsin

    MiMac (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Oik (View Comment):

     

    A primer for the geostrategically illiterate

    Nah, a primer for complete destruction of the economy.

    • #128
  9. Jim McConnell Member
    Jim McConnell
    @JimMcConnell

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Jim McConnell (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    American and European leaders, although they deplored the Russian occupation of Crimea, seemed to understand that a Russia-controlled Crimea created a more stable equilibrium—and was more to the natives’ liking—than a Ukraine-controlled Crimea. President Obama mostly let sleeping dogs lie. So did President Trump. But they also made large transfers of advanced weaponry and military know-how to Ukraine. As a result, over time, a failed state defended by a ramshackle collection of oligarch-sponsored militias turned into the third-largest army in Europe—right behind Turkey and Russia—with a quarter million men under arms.

    But Russia was totally unprovoked. And Ukraine is totally without fault. As is the US and its allies.

    Mkay. Whatever.

    Yep, Ukraine provoked Russia by being there.

    ’cause military buildups never provoked anyone. . .

    Oh, Ukraine was about to attack Russia? I hadn’t heard that.

    • #129
  10. thelonious Member
    thelonious
    @thelonious

    MiMac (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Oik (View Comment):

    MiMac (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Oik (View Comment):

    I mean, I know why our government and their cronies want forever war.

    I just didn’t realize how many in the citizen class have been fooled.

    Look in the mirror

    You know, you’ve never done anything to refute the information about our meddling in Ukraine except to insult me and others as being Putin-stooges. And yet I’ve refrained from just writing you off as a CIA Asset. But maybe that’s the case.

    Your always respond that I am a paid agent of the someone-you never rebut any points. Perhaps you are the paid agent rather than I. Russia is clearly the aggressor & Ukraine has every right to determine its own course. The US has every right to aid victims of aggression & in this case we are wise to do so. The destruction of the Russian army will yield decades of dividends for the US & Europe. If Ukraine wins, Russia will not be in a position to threaten the US or NATO for a generation. A bargain at multiples of our current expenditures in Ukraine.

    What happens if Russia is hollowed out, financially unstable and destitute after this? I fear a Russia in chaos more than I fear their military. It seems the total victory types just want to see vengence on Putin, but they don’t have any strategies of how we would handle a potentially chaotic situation in Russia which would make the world less safe. We need to remember these people have nukes they could sell to some very bad people.

    • #130
  11. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    cdor (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    BDB (View Comment):

    In fact, Russia pretty much had at least two of the eastern provinces of Ukraine for the taking back in February of 2022, and maybe all four that are currently contended. Russia has demonstrated that this is about neo-Soviet revanchism.

    My support for spending US dollars to support Ukraine in this war is very little about Ukraine, and almost exclusively about the opportunity to fight Russia for cheap. Ukraine did not ask for it and neither did we — our interests are not identical, but they *are* aligned. Allowing Russia to reset to the status quo ante bellum would do no more than buy time.

    We disagree on this. I think you haven’t read Caldwell’s piece yet.

    If Russia doesn’t control Crimea, at least culturally, if not administratively, it’s virtually the end of Russia. And Russia was threatened by NATO expansion, which has been known to be a provocation since at least Condoleezza Rice was SoS.

    I just don’t see Russia as the threat to us that you do. It’s China that concerns me.

    But, I’d really like to see the “smart” set in American foreign policy stop its meddling in all these prospective conflicts. They’re just not as smart as they think they are.

    Who the hell cares if Russia is threatened by NATO expansion? If Russia did not have imperial intentions they would not feel threatened by by a defensive treaty between nations. Remember, it’s a defensive treaty.

    I have to agree, Manny. In today’s world, with today’s weaponry, what difference does it make if Russia borders Poland, or it borders Ukraine? Is it about 10 seconds of rocket flight? Also, if Russia takes over all of Ukraine then it would be Russia herself (actually Putin) that put Russia right next to NATO. I am very ambivalent about our involvement in this conflict. I do not trust Ukraine as being anything but a corrupt nation, possibly providing millions of dollars worth of kickbacks to some of our corrupt politicians. But Russia, especially under Putin, is no Shangri-la either. Everyone is bad in this conflict, including the USA with the Biden gang in charge.

    Actually Putin was concerned before the war about US nuclear cruise missiles being developed with (I’m pretty sure) a 500 mile range and being installed in existing launchers on Ukraine’s border with Russia. So proximity is an issue. And Ukraine would have done well to remain a buffer state.

    Do you have any evidence that Russia/Putin would have allowed them to remain just a buffer state? Especially considering what had already been happening even before last Feb.

    Well, the US certainly didn’t.

    • #131
  12. GlenEisenhardt Member
    GlenEisenhardt
    @

    thelonious (View Comment):

    MiMac (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Oik (View Comment):

    MiMac (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Oik (View Comment):

    I mean, I know why our government and their cronies want forever war.

    I just didn’t realize how many in the citizen class have been fooled.

    Look in the mirror

    You know, you’ve never done anything to refute the information about our meddling in Ukraine except to insult me and others as being Putin-stooges. And yet I’ve refrained from just writing you off as a CIA Asset. But maybe that’s the case.

    Your always respond that I am a paid agent of the someone-you never rebut any points. Perhaps you are the paid agent rather than I. Russia is clearly the aggressor & Ukraine has every right to determine its own course. The US has every right to aid victims of aggression & in this case we are wise to do so. The destruction of the Russian army will yield decades of dividends for the US & Europe. If Ukraine wins, Russia will not be in a position to threaten the US or NATO for a generation. A bargain at multiples of our current expenditures in Ukraine.

    What happens if Russia is hollowed out, financially unstable and destitute after this? I fear a Russia in chaos more than I fear their military. It seems the total victory types just want to see vengence on Putin, but they don’t have any strategies of how we would handle a potentially chaotic situation in Russia which would make the world less safe. We need to remember these people have nukes they could sell to some very bad people.

    Yeah they just think you overthrow something and Democracy blooms. Democracy isn’t even hot or worthwhile here at home. People voting to make fully formed babies executable and to cut off their kids penises. This is just what Russia needs. It’ll be such a beautiful world when a scumbag like Putin is replaced by a scumbag like any typical western leftist. It’ll be all sugar and rainbows for the world. 

    • #132
  13. Unsk Member
    Unsk
    @Unsk

    This war is spinning out of control

    80 percent of the Kiev area had no power while Ukraine braces for more missile and drone strikes on it’s power infrastructure.

    oh ya we’ere winning don’t you know?

    Mesnwhile Zelensky struck deep inside Russia with our wespons., even the NATO Allie’s are running out if armaments. 

    This was never about protecting Ukraine but about attacking Russia……..so Russia sees this conflict as an existential fight for their own survival and you clowns think we are going to win that fight.

    Your lunacy has apparently no bounds but of course our Media , Big Tech, FBI /CIA / Military /Deep State Complex who s a much bigger enemy to the American People  than Russia ever will be  is thoroughly brainwashing you  so I guess weak minds will have difficulty  resisting their mind control. 

    oh ya we weren’t meddling in Ukraine affairs – those 36 bio weapons labs bought to Ukraine by the Biden Crne family along the Russian border were just peaceful coexistence. In  action and certainly no provocation.

    • #133
  14. Ed G. Member
    Ed G.
    @EdG

    MiMac (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Oik (View Comment):

    MiMac (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Oik (View Comment):

    I mean, I know why our government and their cronies want forever war.

    I just didn’t realize how many in the citizen class have been fooled.

    Look in the mirror

    You know, you’ve never done anything to refute the information about our meddling in Ukraine except to insult me and others as being Putin-stooges. And yet I’ve refrained from just writing you off as a CIA Asset. But maybe that’s the case.

    Your always respond that I am a paid agent of the someone-you never rebut any points. Perhaps you are the paid agent rather than I. Russia is clearly the aggressor & Ukraine has every right to determine its own course. The US has every right to aid victims of aggression & in this case we are wise to do so. The destruction of the Russian army will yield decades of dividends for the US & Europe. If Ukraine wins, Russia will not be in a position to threaten the US or NATO for a generation. A bargain at multiples of our current expenditures in Ukraine.

    I’ve been around awhile.  Drew is always responsive and considers other points. You are always dismissive with a heavy dose of appeal to shame.

    • #134
  15. ToryWarWriter Coolidge
    ToryWarWriter
    @ToryWarWriter

    I see an easy end to the conflict.

    Russia troops in Kiev putting up what ever parts 0f the Ukraine government that hasnt fled to their estates in Miami against a wall and shooting them.

    Russia is mobilizing close to a million men, and has millions more.  They are outshooting the Ukraines in artillery ten to  one.  They have an industrial economy that is largely self sufficient and what they cant get, they get from China.  They are making hundreds of cruise missiles a month. Meanwhile the USA struggles to double Himars production from 250 to 500 a year!

    The same people who lied to you about Iraq, Afghanistan, Covid, Russia and Trump.  Are lying to you about the Ukraine war.  

    By this time next year Russia will occupy the entirety of the country, and what will the liars say then?  

    • #135
  16. HeavyWater Inactive
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

    ToryWarWriter (View Comment):

    I see an easy end to the conflict.

    Russia troops in Kiev putting up what ever parts 0f the Ukraine government that hasnt fled to their estates in Miami against a wall and shooting them.

    Russia is mobilizing close to a million men, and has millions more. They are outshooting the Ukraines in artillery ten to one. They have an industrial economy that is largely self sufficient and what they cant get, they get from China. They are making hundreds of cruise missiles a month. Meanwhile the USA struggles to double Himars production from 250 to 500 a year!

    The same people who lied to you about Iraq, Afghanistan, Covid, Russia and Trump. Are lying to you about the Ukraine war.

    By this time next year Russia will occupy the entirety of the country, and what will the liars say then?

    If by this time next year Russia is not occupying the entirety of Ukraine, will you admit that you got it wrong?

    • #136
  17. BDB Inactive
    BDB
    @BDB

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    ToryWarWriter (View Comment):

    I see an easy end to the conflict.

    Russia troops in Kiev putting up what ever parts 0f the Ukraine government that hasnt fled to their estates in Miami against a wall and shooting them.

    Russia is mobilizing close to a million men, and has millions more. They are outshooting the Ukraines in artillery ten to one. They have an industrial economy that is largely self sufficient and what they cant get, they get from China. They are making hundreds of cruise missiles a month. Meanwhile the USA struggles to double Himars production from 250 to 500 a year!

    The same people who lied to you about Iraq, Afghanistan, Covid, Russia and Trump. Are lying to you about the Ukraine war.

    By this time next year Russia will occupy the entirety of the country, and what will the liars say then?

    If by this time next year Russia is not occupying the entirety of Ukraine, will you admit that you got it wrong?

    There’s always the year after that.

    • #137
  18. MiMac Thatcher
    MiMac
    @MiMac

    DrewInWisconsin, Oik (View Comment):

    MiMac (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Oik (View Comment):

     

    A primer for the geostrategically illiterate

    What can I say, I hate “country-last” globalists.

    So you think Russia winning will help the US-that is clearly delusional.

    • #138
  19. MiMac Thatcher
    MiMac
    @MiMac

    Unsk (View Comment):

    This war is spinning out of control

    80 percent of the Kiev area had no power while Ukraine braces for more missile and drone strikes on it’s power infrastructure.

    oh ya we’ere winning don’t you know?

    Mesnwhile Zelensky struck deep inside Russia with our wespons., even the NATO Allie’s are running out if armaments.

    This was never about protecting Ukraine but about attacking Russia……..so Russia sees this conflict as an existential fight for their own survival and you clowns think we are going to win that fight.

    Your lunacy has apparently no bounds but of course our Media , Big Tech, FBI /CIA / Military /Deep State Complex who s a much bigger enemy to the American People than Russia ever will be is thoroughly brainwashing you so I guess weak minds will have difficulty resisting their mind control.

    oh ya we weren’t meddling in Ukraine affairs – those 36 bio weapons labs bought to Ukraine by the Biden Crne family along the Russian border were just peaceful coexistence. In action and certainly no provocation.

    The Bioweapons lab is complete FSB bull droppings. No credible person believes it.

    • #139
  20. MiMac Thatcher
    MiMac
    @MiMac

    ToryWarWriter (View Comment):

    I see an easy end to the conflict.

    Russia troops in Kiev putting up what ever parts 0f the Ukraine government that hasnt fled to their estates in Miami against a wall and shooting them.

    Russia is mobilizing close to a million men, and has millions more. They are outshooting the Ukraines in artillery ten to one. They have an industrial economy that is largely self sufficient and what they cant get, they get from China. They are making hundreds of cruise missiles a month. Meanwhile the USA struggles to double Himars production from 250 to 500 a year!

    The same people who lied to you about Iraq, Afghanistan, Covid, Russia and Trump. Are lying to you about the Ukraine war.

    By this time next year Russia will occupy the entirety of the country, and what will the liars say then?

    You lost it at Russian troops in Kyiv…..

    • #140
  21. DrewInWisconsin, Oik Member
    DrewInWisconsin, Oik
    @DrewInWisconsin

    MiMac (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Oik (View Comment):

    MiMac (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Oik (View Comment):

     

    A primer for the geostrategically illiterate

    What can I say, I hate “country-last” globalists.

    So you think Russia winning will help the US-that is clearly delusional.

    You need to learn logic.

    • #141
  22. BDB Inactive
    BDB
    @BDB

    Well, this thread went downhill slow.  I disagree strongly with many aspects of WC’s point of view, but we aren’t calling each other names AND I’m not carpet-bombing the thread with my by now well-known opinion every time somebody says something I don’t like.

    • #142
  23. DrewInWisconsin, Oik Member
    DrewInWisconsin, Oik
    @DrewInWisconsin

    Kayfabe in Kiev

    • #143
  24. HeavyWater Inactive
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

    ToryWarWriter (View Comment):

    I see an easy end to the conflict.

    Russia troops in Kiev putting up what ever parts 0f the Ukraine government that hasnt fled to their estates in Miami against a wall and shooting them.

    Russia is mobilizing close to a million men, and has millions more. They are outshooting the Ukraines in artillery ten to one. 

    If Russia enjoys the large advantages that you refer to here, why did Russia abandon Kherson and other parts of Ukrainian territory? 

    Why didn’t Putin mobilize this million man military before the invasion if this is what he would ultimately need to win the war?  Did Putin think that the Russian military would conquer Ukraine in blitz attack?   

    • #144
  25. Ekosj Member
    Ekosj
    @Ekosj

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Ekosj (View Comment):

    I think there is hubris all around. The US should stop urging Ukraine to do anything. Whether or not Ukraine wants to recover the Russian occupied areas or to cede them to Russia is Ukraine’s decision not ours. Pressuring them to accept the forced partition of their country is every bit as interventionist as is pressuring them to fight on.

    What we should focus on is what’s best for us. If Ukraine wants to fight, is it in our best interest to support that effort? Or not? If they decide to negotiate a settlement that’s fine.

    I agree it is Ukraine’s decision. But, don’t you think our ongoing funding and arming is at least encouraging Ukraine to fight on? I’m only advocating that Ukraine be encouraged to go to the bargaining table. How a settlement comes out is anyone’s guess.

    If you are “encouraging” anything you are intervening where you don’t belong.  

    I don’t think our providing weapons is necessarily encouraging them to fight on.   If they are saying we want to fight on but we need weapons…and providing those weapons benefits us then, no.   But if we are dangling them as a carrot or withholding them as a stick then it is.

    • #145
  26. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Ekosj (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Ekosj (View Comment):

    I think there is hubris all around. The US should stop urging Ukraine to do anything. Whether or not Ukraine wants to recover the Russian occupied areas or to cede them to Russia is Ukraine’s decision not ours. Pressuring them to accept the forced partition of their country is every bit as interventionist as is pressuring them to fight on.

    What we should focus on is what’s best for us. If Ukraine wants to fight, is it in our best interest to support that effort? Or not? If they decide to negotiate a settlement that’s fine.

    I agree it is Ukraine’s decision. But, don’t you think our ongoing funding and arming is at least encouraging Ukraine to fight on? I’m only advocating that Ukraine be encouraged to go to the bargaining table. How a settlement comes out is anyone’s guess.

    If you are “encouraging” anything you are intervening where you don’t belong.

    I don’t think our providing weapons is necessarily encouraging them to fight on. If they are saying we want to fight on but we need weapons…and providing those weapons benefits us then, no. But if we are dangling them as a carrot or withholding them as a stick then it is.

    And if the Ukrainians didn’t want to fight, it wouldn’t matter how many weapons we sent them.

    • #146
  27. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Sending weapons and funds empowers one group of Ukrainians and disempowers another group.  It’s not like they all have the same opinion on EU/Russia.

    • #147
  28. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Sending weapons and funds empowers one group of Ukrainians and disempowers another group. It’s not like they all have the same opinion on EU/Russia.

    Maybe those who wish they were Russian – and who may have come from Russia to start with, as part of a program of slow-capture – should just go (back) to Russia.

    And it’s not just there, either.  Mexican “immigrants” to the US who think the US should be more like Mexico, should just go back to Mexico.

    • #148
  29. HeavyWater Inactive
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Sending weapons and funds empowers one group of Ukrainians and disempowers another group. It’s not like they all have the same opinion on EU/Russia.

    It’s not necessary for all Ukrainians to have the same opinion on EU/Russia for the US to provide weapons to the legitimate government of Ukraine.  Unanimity is too high of a standard.

    Abraham Lincoln (March 4, 1861):

    “Unanimity is impossible.  The rule of a minority, as a permanent arrangement, is wholly inadmissible; so that rejecting the majority principle, anarchy or despotism in some form is all that is left.”

    • #149
  30. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Sending weapons and funds empowers one group of Ukrainians and disempowers another group. It’s not like they all have the same opinion on EU/Russia.

    It’s not necessary for all Ukrainians to have the same opinion on EU/Russia for the US to provide weapons to the legitimate government of Ukraine. Unanimity is too high of a standard.

    The US can provide aid to anybody it wants.  Including minorities in other countries.

     

    • #150
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