Repent! The End is Near!

 

Well, not necessarily but…

There is a melancholy feeling of late. Somehow we are facing the end of western civilization. But is it really? For that matter, if it were the end, would we actually recognize it as such? Even a modest familiarity with world history tells us that we are hardly the first to face that question. It might be obvious if we were Romans in Britain in 410 AD, when the order came from Rome for the last legions to leave. Then a hard decision was needed; pack up and go, or stay and take your chances. Even more obvious would be to be in Constantinople in May 1453. Then Mehmet’s great gun pounding at the city walls would make the message clear.

Just as often, however, the signs may be there but not so clear. The spice merchant in Petra might remark on the declining number of caravans coming through. A farmer in Sumeria might puzzle over recent crop failures. The future might seem bleak, or maybe not. Perhaps things will be better next season. Maybe the king has something up his sleeve that will set matters right.

It is to this issue that I recommend the podcast, Fall of Civilizations. I found this series of podcasts on YouTube but all the details can be found at fallofcivilizations.com. The podcast is the work of Paul Cooper who both writes and narrates the podcast. Each episode runs about three to four hours and is a deep dive into the entire history of significant civilizations and well worth the investment of time.

Perhaps the current apocalyptic fog is being driven, at least in part, by the ongoing Russian invasion of Ukraine. Serious argument is made as to whether we should be involved, and support by our government and others has been just enough to keep it going but not enough to push it to a decisive end, short of complete surrender by Ukraine.

One of the most vocal critics is Tucker Carlson. He obviously has a bully pulpit to preach from and he has a definite talent for asking uncomfortable questions. But, as with Vietnam, Iraq, and all the conflicts in which we have been involved since WWII, there are no answers. Tucker simply says we should quit, give up. Perhaps it is the thing to do at this juncture, but just how would this be brought about? Would we stop answering the phone when Zelensky calls? Would we call Vladimir and tell him he won and can have anything he wants? Most significantly, would we just stand by as Putin devours Ukraine, obliterates the population? We cannot predict the future, not any of it, save maybe for a demonstration of the laws of gravity. Without a reasonable estimate of future possibilities, no decision, whether to stay the course, cut and run, seek a compromise, negotiate a truce, would be sensible. On this, Mr. Carlson is stone silent.

There is a reason for defending Ukraine, one which has hardly been touched. The cold fact is that Ukraine is a sovereign country and Russia has willfully violated that sovereignty. Our whole international system relies on the sanctity of borders and requires international consent to change them. Allow Russia to prevail, and all that crumbles into dust. Defending Ukraine has nothing to do with any past history, nor with any supposed political sympathies of some Ukrainians. Particularly useless is to complain that the Ukraine government is corrupt. Just which set of corrupt oligarchs should we side with? Either Ukraine’s borders remain intact, or there are no borders for anyone.

It may be naive, but at least it is a principle to consider. The situation is hideously complicated by the energy debacle. Even so, it does not seem a wise choice to just step back and watch it all burn, all the while smugly saying, “We told you so!”

Published in History
This post was promoted to the Main Feed by a Ricochet Editor at the recommendation of Ricochet members. Like this post? Want to comment? Join Ricochet’s community of conservatives and be part of the conversation. Join Ricochet for Free.

There are 99 comments.

Become a member to join the conversation. Or sign in if you're already a member.
  1. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Raxxalan (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Raxxalan (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):
    I agree with you here. The U.S. contributed to the deaths of many people by prolonging the Iraq-Iran War by helping Saddam. I would normally suggest it would have been better to let Iran win. The only thing that makes me hesitate is the possibility that the Iranians, in victory, might have massacred a huge swath of the Iraqis in revenge.

    Or perhaps expect Iran to let Iraq win. Why not?

    I believe the official position of the US was “it is too bad they can’t both lose.”

    Yes, but my point was, if some people expect the US to pressure one side or the other in any conflict to give up, supposedly to avoid further bloodshed, why shouldn’t we tell Iran to give up rather than Iraq?

    I think there is a thought we had more leverage with Iraq than we did with Iran, which may have been true in the sense it would have been hard for us to have less influence than with Iran. It ignores the fact that Iraq was a Soviet proxy and prior to the Islamic revolution Iran was a US proxy, so we didn’t really have much leverage with either one of them.

    That’s also true, but mostly I don’t think we should be telling anyone to surrender because we think it will mean fewer deaths in total.

    • #91
  2. Raxxalan Member
    Raxxalan
    @Raxxalan

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Raxxalan (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Raxxalan (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):
    I agree with you here. The U.S. contributed to the deaths of many people by prolonging the Iraq-Iran War by helping Saddam. I would normally suggest it would have been better to let Iran win. The only thing that makes me hesitate is the possibility that the Iranians, in victory, might have massacred a huge swath of the Iraqis in revenge.

    Or perhaps expect Iran to let Iraq win. Why not?

    I believe the official position of the US was “it is too bad they can’t both lose.”

    Yes, but my point was, if some people expect the US to pressure one side or the other in any conflict to give up, supposedly to avoid further bloodshed, why shouldn’t we tell Iran to give up rather than Iraq?

    I think there is a thought we had more leverage with Iraq than we did with Iran, which may have been true in the sense it would have been hard for us to have less influence than with Iran. It ignores the fact that Iraq was a Soviet proxy and prior to the Islamic revolution Iran was a US proxy, so we didn’t really have much leverage with either one of them.

    That’s also true, but mostly I don’t think we should be telling anyone to surrender because we think it will mean fewer deaths in total.

    Very true.

    • #92
  3. Steven Seward Member
    Steven Seward
    @StevenSeward

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Raxxalan (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):
    I agree with you here. The U.S. contributed to the deaths of many people by prolonging the Iraq-Iran War by helping Saddam. I would normally suggest it would have been better to let Iran win. The only thing that makes me hesitate is the possibility that the Iranians, in victory, might have massacred a huge swath of the Iraqis in revenge.

    Or perhaps expect Iran to let Iraq win. Why not?

    I believe the official position of the US was “it is too bad they can’t both lose.”

    Yes, but my point was, if some people expect the US to pressure one side or the other in any conflict to give up, supposedly to avoid further bloodshed, why shouldn’t we tell Iran to give up rather than Iraq?

    Because Iraq was losing badly at the time we intervened.  Letting nature take its course would have presumably led to an Iranian victory.  It would be nice if we could just “make one side give up.”  That would come handy in Ukraine right now.

    • #93
  4. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Raxxalan (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):
    I agree with you here. The U.S. contributed to the deaths of many people by prolonging the Iraq-Iran War by helping Saddam. I would normally suggest it would have been better to let Iran win. The only thing that makes me hesitate is the possibility that the Iranians, in victory, might have massacred a huge swath of the Iraqis in revenge.

    Or perhaps expect Iran to let Iraq win. Why not?

    I believe the official position of the US was “it is too bad they can’t both lose.”

    Yes, but my point was, if some people expect the US to pressure one side or the other in any conflict to give up, supposedly to avoid further bloodshed, why shouldn’t we tell Iran to give up rather than Iraq?

    Because Iraq was losing badly at the time we intervened. Letting nature take its course would have presumably led to an Iranian victory. It would be nice if we could just “make one side give up.” That would come handy in Ukraine right now.

    Only if we made Russia give up.

    • #94
  5. Steven Seward Member
    Steven Seward
    @StevenSeward

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Raxxalan (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):
    I agree with you here. The U.S. contributed to the deaths of many people by prolonging the Iraq-Iran War by helping Saddam. I would normally suggest it would have been better to let Iran win. The only thing that makes me hesitate is the possibility that the Iranians, in victory, might have massacred a huge swath of the Iraqis in revenge.

    Or perhaps expect Iran to let Iraq win. Why not?

    I believe the official position of the US was “it is too bad they can’t both lose.”

    Yes, but my point was, if some people expect the US to pressure one side or the other in any conflict to give up, supposedly to avoid further bloodshed, why shouldn’t we tell Iran to give up rather than Iraq?

    Because Iraq was losing badly at the time we intervened. Letting nature take its course would have presumably led to an Iranian victory. It would be nice if we could just “make one side give up.” That would come handy in Ukraine right now.

    Only if we made Russia give up.

    There are some on Ricochet who would prefer for Ukraine to give up.  It would be a nice magical power to make countries give up wars.

    • #95
  6. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Raxxalan (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):
    I agree with you here. The U.S. contributed to the deaths of many people by prolonging the Iraq-Iran War by helping Saddam. I would normally suggest it would have been better to let Iran win. The only thing that makes me hesitate is the possibility that the Iranians, in victory, might have massacred a huge swath of the Iraqis in revenge.

    Or perhaps expect Iran to let Iraq win. Why not?

    I believe the official position of the US was “it is too bad they can’t both lose.”

    Yes, but my point was, if some people expect the US to pressure one side or the other in any conflict to give up, supposedly to avoid further bloodshed, why shouldn’t we tell Iran to give up rather than Iraq?

    Because Iraq was losing badly at the time we intervened. Letting nature take its course would have presumably led to an Iranian victory. It would be nice if we could just “make one side give up.” That would come handy in Ukraine right now.

    Only if we made Russia give up.

    There are some on Ricochet who would prefer for Ukraine to give up. It would be a nice magical power to make countries give up wars.

    Indeed.  But regardless of “corruption” or any other excuses, Russia was the aggressor.

    • #96
  7. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Steven Seward (View Comment):
    Thanks for the info on Sisi.

    Most welcome.

    I haven’t been following Egyptian politics.  It still doesn’t change my view that we don’t put these guys in power.  The U.S. plays nice with Egypt, as they do with all countries that are not openly hostile to the U.S., even if they are run by dictators, but we don’t have much say in who they elect or overthrow.

    Do you think Sisi would still be in power without regular cash infusions from the US?  He’s there because you want him there, he’s useful to you.

    As for his predecessor – well. Murky as anything, but he was actually elected.  He was (unfortunately) a true reflection of Egypt.

    I’m not even sure which direction the influence is flowing, from the U.S. to Saudi Arabia, or from Saudi Arabia to the U.S.

    Is the US dependent on Saudi or are the Saudi’s dependent on the US?

    Question:  If you were the head of a military superpower, would you have supported rebels overthrowing Assad, or would you support the Assad Regime?

    Depends on my objective.

    If it was to drag Assad down with no thought to the consequences for Syria and the region then I’d support any rebels I could find – and if the only viable rebel forces were ISIS or Al Qaida offshoots then I’d support them and too  bad for the Syrians (Muslim, Christian, Druze) who suffered as a consequence. (Because it worked so well in Afghanistan when bleeding the Soviets.  Why re-invent the wheel?  Let’s not forget where Daesh [ISIS] emerged.)

    Yes, there was this whole ‘moderate rebels’ lie for domestic consumption, but there was no critical mass of moderate rebels.  They did not exist.

    Saddam didn’t persecute Christians.  One good mark for Saddam.  But he persecuted everybody else, which was 99% of the population.

    Saddam was a vile person, but he didn’t persecute religious minorities – he didn’t care about people’s beliefs.  He persecuted any alternative power centre (like Shia clerics, that’s true, but because of their power rather than their religion).  In Saddam’s Iraq, like Assad’s Syria, if you kept your head down you were most okay.  Is that optimum? No. Is it preferable to women being whipped because they didn’t cover their face? Infinitely.

    They were the least bad real options, and in (at least Western) Syria Assad still is.

    Saddam is credited with killing several hundred thousand of his own people.

    How many Iraqis did US sanctions kill?

    The U.S. contributed to the deaths of many people by prolonging the Iraq-Iran War by helping Saddam. 

    To what end?  To achieve what?

    • #97
  8. Steven Seward Member
    Steven Seward
    @StevenSeward

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    The U.S. contributed to the deaths of many people by prolonging the Iraq-Iran War by helping Saddam.

    To what end? To achieve what?

    I think they just didn’t want Iran dominating the Gulf region, (which was and still is the same objective as most Arab countries) along with a little revenge for taking our hostages.

    • #98
  9. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    The U.S. contributed to the deaths of many people by prolonging the Iraq-Iran War by helping Saddam.

    To what end? To achieve what?

    I think they just didn’t want Iran dominating the Gulf region, (which was and still is the same objective as most Arab countries) along with a little revenge for taking our hostages.

    Quite an ommelette:

    Border clashes took place sporadically early in 1980 and, with Iran’s armed forces weakened by purges, Saddam hoped to replace the deposed shah as regional strongman. He was alarmed, too, by the radicalising effect of the Islamic revolution on Iraq’s restive Shia majority and wanted to improve access to the Gulf through the Shatt al-Arab.

    Over time he enjoyed the discreet support of the west, with the US providing satellite intelligence on Iranian deployments and European countries supplying armaments and raw materials for gas and chemical weapons. Iran’s continuing suspicions of America and Europe cannot be understood without remembering that grim period. Washington wanted both countries to bleed, but it feared Iran more…

    Iran, with a population of 50 million to Iraq’s 17 million, mobilised to defend the revolution. By the summer of 1982 Iraq was on the defensive and remained so until the end in August 1988. The death toll, overall, was an estimated 1 million for Iran and 250,000-500,000 for Iraq.

    • #99
Become a member to join the conversation. Or sign in if you're already a member.