There are 293 comments.

1. Member
   Django

   @Django

   5:37 PM EDT ⋅ Jul 21, 2022

   kedavis (View Comment):

   Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

   kedavis (View Comment):

   Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

   kedavis (View Comment):

   Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

   kedavis (View Comment):
   But what big advantage is there to “space jaunting” if you have to have been there first already by regular means?

   Space travel is expensive, time-consuming, and dangerous. “Jaunting” costs nothing and is instantaneous. But in fact the protagonist is able to “jaunt” to places he has never been before, which opens up travel to the stars.

   Faaaantasy!

   Now you are just being silly: I demonstrated the advantage of “jaunting” over space ships, and your response was irrelevant to my point.

   Also, what evidence is there that “jaunting” could ever be instantaneous? Even if nothing else about “jaunting” is pure faaantasy, sure seems like that would be!

   Which adds to my earlier argument, of course. Where we see the Moon is where it WAS about 1.3 seconds ago. If you could “jaunt” at the speed of light, it would take you another 1.3 seconds to get to where the moon WAS. And in 2.6 seconds, the moon in its orbit has moved about 2.6 miles. So, give or take, you would arrive either in space 2.6 miles “above” the moon’s surface, or buried 2.6 miles beneath it. Either way, it’s a “bad trip.” (Especially if you still had your Earth-surface velocity!)

   Are you just trolling us? If so, stop. It’s annoying and foolish.

   My argument might be that those who think garbage like “jaunting” is just “suspension of disbelief” are the ones trolling.

   You are the one arguing the mechanics of something everyone else in the discussion already regards as impossible. 

2. Member
   Paul Stinchfield

   @PaulStinchfield

   

   5:39 PM EDT ⋅ Jul 21, 2022

   kedavis (View Comment):

   Niven had the benefit that just because the first (mostly-)human visitors to the Ringworld didn’t see the thrusters, doesn’t mean they weren’t there all along.

   As I recall, the thing about mountains and “spill-pipes” etc wasn’t in the first book either.

   Or maybe that was, but just not the thrusters.

   None of the three were in the first book. But even with spill pipes I don’t believe in the Ringworld: It would require a Brobdingnagian army of Protectors merely to constantly rebuild the constantly eroding landscape. It was a fun concept, but I didn’t put that much stock in it as a believable working world. In some ways the first <i>Protector</i> novel was the most satisfying, because it left many questions unanswered rather than offering dubious answers.

   Hmm well remember, as it turned out (one could argue it was retcon but there were so many unanswered questions in the first book, providing answers isn’t necessarily the same as retcon) the Ringworld had a much larger population at the start, including Protectors etc, but the Puppeteers saw it all as a threat and basically killed them off via their anti-superconductor virus etc. which also disabled much of the technology that had been originally in place.

   No, the Protectors were dead long before the Puppeteers seeded it with their anti-superconductor virus or bacterium.

3. Member
   Paul Stinchfield

   @PaulStinchfield

   

   5:41 PM EDT ⋅ Jul 21, 2022

   Remember how John Carter gets to Mars? Total fantasy. Demanding a scientific explanation would be pointless. A waste of time. A pleasure-killer.

4. Coolidge
   kedavis

   @kedavis

   5:44 PM EDT ⋅ Jul 21, 2022

   Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

   kedavis (View Comment):

   Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

   kedavis (View Comment):

   Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

   kedavis (View Comment):

   Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

   kedavis (View Comment):
   But what big advantage is there to “space jaunting” if you have to have been there first already by regular means?

   Space travel is expensive, time-consuming, and dangerous. “Jaunting” costs nothing and is instantaneous. But in fact the protagonist is able to “jaunt” to places he has never been before, which opens up travel to the stars.

   Faaaantasy!

   Now you are just being silly: I demonstrated the advantage of “jaunting” over space ships, and your response was irrelevant to my point.

   Also, what evidence is there that “jaunting” could ever be instantaneous? Even if nothing else about “jaunting” is pure faaantasy, sure seems like that would be!

   Which adds to my earlier argument, of course. Where we see the Moon is where it WAS about 1.3 seconds ago. If you could “jaunt” at the speed of light, it would take you another 1.3 seconds to get to where the moon WAS. And in 2.6 seconds, the moon in its orbit has moved about 2.6 miles. So, give or take, you would arrive either in space 2.6 miles “above” the moon’s surface, or buried 2.6 miles beneath it. Either way, it’s a “bad trip.” (Especially if you still had your Earth-surface velocity!)

   Are you just trolling us? If so, stop. It’s annoying and foolish.

   My argument might be that those who think garbage like “jaunting” is just “suspension of disbelief” are the ones trolling.

   It’s fantasy. Or science fantasy. Your demand that it all make perfect scientific sense is about as reasonable as requiring that a symphony be blue or a painting be in the chromatic scale. If you don’t like fantasy, fine. But don’t demand something that is not part of that genre.

   I don’t demand things be written certain ways, and I don’t think fantasy should be banned.  But it bugs me when some people claim stuff like “Stars My Destination” is sci-fi when it clearly isn’t.  With stuff like “jaunting” it can only be faaantasy, not even “speculative fiction.”

5. Coolidge
   kedavis

   @kedavis

   5:45 PM EDT ⋅ Jul 21, 2022

   Django (View Comment):

   kedavis (View Comment):

   Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

   kedavis (View Comment):

   Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

   kedavis (View Comment):

   Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

   kedavis (View Comment):
   But what big advantage is there to “space jaunting” if you have to have been there first already by regular means?

   Space travel is expensive, time-consuming, and dangerous. “Jaunting” costs nothing and is instantaneous. But in fact the protagonist is able to “jaunt” to places he has never been before, which opens up travel to the stars.

   Faaaantasy!

   Now you are just being silly: I demonstrated the advantage of “jaunting” over space ships, and your response was irrelevant to my point.

   Also, what evidence is there that “jaunting” could ever be instantaneous? Even if nothing else about “jaunting” is pure faaantasy, sure seems like that would be!

   Which adds to my earlier argument, of course. Where we see the Moon is where it WAS about 1.3 seconds ago. If you could “jaunt” at the speed of light, it would take you another 1.3 seconds to get to where the moon WAS. And in 2.6 seconds, the moon in its orbit has moved about 2.6 miles. So, give or take, you would arrive either in space 2.6 miles “above” the moon’s surface, or buried 2.6 miles beneath it. Either way, it’s a “bad trip.” (Especially if you still had your Earth-surface velocity!)

   Are you just trolling us? If so, stop. It’s annoying and foolish.

   My argument might be that those who think garbage like “jaunting” is just “suspension of disbelief” are the ones trolling.

   You are the one arguing the mechanics of something everyone else in the discussion already regards as impossible.

   “Impossible even with advanced technology” would be one thing that makes something fantasy, not sci-fi or even “speculative fiction.”

6. Coolidge
   kedavis

   @kedavis

   5:46 PM EDT ⋅ Jul 21, 2022

   Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

   Remember how John Carter gets to Mars? Total fantasy. Demanding a scientific explanation would be pointless. A waste of time. A pleasure-killer.

   Yes, but I’ve never met anyone who thinks those stories are sci-fi.

7. Coolidge
   Tex929rr

   @Tex929rr

   5:47 PM EDT ⋅ Jul 21, 2022

   This is a bigger nerd fight than the one we had over in Ricochet Movie Fight Club. 

8. Member
   Django

   @Django

   5:48 PM EDT ⋅ Jul 21, 2022

   kedavis (View Comment):

   Django (View Comment):

   kedavis (View Comment):

   Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

   kedavis (View Comment):

   Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

   kedavis (View Comment):

   Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

   kedavis (View Comment):
   But what big advantage is there to “space jaunting” if you have to have been there first already by regular means?

   Space travel is expensive, time-consuming, and dangerous. “Jaunting” costs nothing and is instantaneous. But in fact the protagonist is able to “jaunt” to places he has never been before, which opens up travel to the stars.

   Faaaantasy!

   Now you are just being silly: I demonstrated the advantage of “jaunting” over space ships, and your response was irrelevant to my point.

   Also, what evidence is there that “jaunting” could ever be instantaneous? Even if nothing else about “jaunting” is pure faaantasy, sure seems like that would be!

   Which adds to my earlier argument, of course. Where we see the Moon is where it WAS about 1.3 seconds ago. If you could “jaunt” at the speed of light, it would take you another 1.3 seconds to get to where the moon WAS. And in 2.6 seconds, the moon in its orbit has moved about 2.6 miles. So, give or take, you would arrive either in space 2.6 miles “above” the moon’s surface, or buried 2.6 miles beneath it. Either way, it’s a “bad trip.” (Especially if you still had your Earth-surface velocity!)

   Are you just trolling us? If so, stop. It’s annoying and foolish.

   My argument might be that those who think garbage like “jaunting” is just “suspension of disbelief” are the ones trolling.

   You are the one arguing the mechanics of something everyone else in the discussion already regards as impossible.

   “Impossible even with advanced technology” would be one thing that makes something fantasy, not sci-fi or even “speculative fiction.”

   So? Look; the stupidest idea in Star Trek teleporter/transporter, whatever it’s called, but it didn’t keep me from enjoying one or two episodes of an otherwise forgettable series.

9. Member
   Paul Stinchfield

   @PaulStinchfield

   

   5:50 PM EDT ⋅ Jul 21, 2022

   kedavis (View Comment):

   It’s fantasy. Or science fantasy. Your demand that it all make perfect scientific sense is about as reasonable as requiring that a symphony be blue or a painting be in the chromatic scale. If you don’t like fantasy, fine. But don’t demand something that is not part of that genre.

   I don’t demand things be written certain ways, and I don’t think fantasy should be banned.  But it bugs me when some people claim stuff like “Stars My Destination” is sci-fi when it clearly isn’t.  With stuff like “jaunting” it can only be faaantasy, not even “speculative fiction.”

   You’ll have to take up your complaint with a very large number of science fiction writers and editors and critics.

10. Coolidge
    kedavis

    @kedavis

    5:50 PM EDT ⋅ Jul 21, 2022

    Django (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Django (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    But what big advantage is there to “space jaunting” if you have to have been there first already by regular means?

    Space travel is expensive, time-consuming, and dangerous. “Jaunting” costs nothing and is instantaneous. But in fact the protagonist is able to “jaunt” to places he has never been before, which opens up travel to the stars.

    Faaaantasy!

    Now you are just being silly: I demonstrated the advantage of “jaunting” over space ships, and your response was irrelevant to my point.

    Also, what evidence is there that “jaunting” could ever be instantaneous? Even if nothing else about “jaunting” is pure faaantasy, sure seems like that would be!

    Which adds to my earlier argument, of course. Where we see the Moon is where it WAS about 1.3 seconds ago. If you could “jaunt” at the speed of light, it would take you another 1.3 seconds to get to where the moon WAS. And in 2.6 seconds, the moon in its orbit has moved about 2.6 miles. So, give or take, you would arrive either in space 2.6 miles “above” the moon’s surface, or buried 2.6 miles beneath it. Either way, it’s a “bad trip.” (Especially if you still had your Earth-surface velocity!)

    Are you just trolling us? If so, stop. It’s annoying and foolish.

    My argument might be that those who think garbage like “jaunting” is just “suspension of disbelief” are the ones trolling.

    You are the one arguing the mechanics of something everyone else in the discussion already regards as impossible.

    “Impossible even with advanced technology” would be one thing that makes something fantasy, not sci-fi or even “speculative fiction.”

    So? Look; the stupidest idea in Star Trek teleporter/transporter, whatever it’s called, but it didn’t keep me from enjoying one or two episodes of an otherwise forgettable series.

    Star Trek could have been written without the transporter.  Even fans of “Stars My Destination” agree that there’s no story without “jaunting.”

11. Coolidge
    kedavis

    @kedavis

    6:01 PM EDT ⋅ Jul 21, 2022

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Niven had the benefit that just because the first (mostly-)human visitors to the Ringworld didn’t see the thrusters, doesn’t mean they weren’t there all along.

    As I recall, the thing about mountains and “spill-pipes” etc wasn’t in the first book either.

    Or maybe that was, but just not the thrusters.

    None of the three were in the first book. But even with spill pipes I don’t believe in the Ringworld: It would require a Brobdingnagian army of Protectors merely to constantly rebuild the constantly eroding landscape. It was a fun concept, but I didn’t put that much stock in it as a believable working world. In some ways the first <i>Protector</i> novel was the most satisfying, because it left many questions unanswered rather than offering dubious answers.

    Hmm well remember, as it turned out (one could argue it was retcon but there were so many unanswered questions in the first book, providing answers isn’t necessarily the same as retcon) the Ringworld had a much larger population at the start, including Protectors etc, but the Puppeteers saw it all as a threat and basically killed them off via their anti-superconductor virus etc. which also disabled much of the technology that had been originally in place.

    No, the Protectors were dead long before the Puppeteers seeded it with their anti-superconductor virus or bacterium.

    Hmm, but why?  Been a long time since I read those too, but the only reason I can think of would be if there was no Tree Of Life on the Ringworld.  But there had to be, because that’s what turned Teela Brown into a Protector.  (Tree Of Life didn’t grow on Earth, though, which is why Earth didn’t have Protectors.)

12. Coolidge
    kedavis

    @kedavis

    6:02 PM EDT ⋅ Jul 21, 2022

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    It’s fantasy. Or science fantasy. Your demand that it all make perfect scientific sense is about as reasonable as requiring that a symphony be blue or a painting be in the chromatic scale. If you don’t like fantasy, fine. But don’t demand something that is not part of that genre.

    I don’t demand things be written certain ways, and I don’t think fantasy should be banned. But it bugs me when some people claim stuff like “Stars My Destination” is sci-fi when it clearly isn’t. With stuff like “jaunting” it can only be faaantasy, not even “speculative fiction.”

    You’ll have to take up your complaint with a very large number of science fiction writers and editors and critics.

    I’ve never had a problem with being the only person who’s right about something.

13. Member
    Judge Mental

    @JudgeMental

    6:05 PM EDT ⋅ Jul 21, 2022

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Niven had the benefit that just because the first (mostly-)human visitors to the Ringworld didn’t see the thrusters, doesn’t mean they weren’t there all along.

    As I recall, the thing about mountains and “spill-pipes” etc wasn’t in the first book either.

    Or maybe that was, but just not the thrusters.

    None of the three were in the first book. But even with spill pipes I don’t believe in the Ringworld: It would require a Brobdingnagian army of Protectors merely to constantly rebuild the constantly eroding landscape. It was a fun concept, but I didn’t put that much stock in it as a believable working world. In some ways the first <i>Protector</i> novel was the most satisfying, because it left many questions unanswered rather than offering dubious answers.

    Hmm well remember, as it turned out (one could argue it was retcon but there were so many unanswered questions in the first book, providing answers isn’t necessarily the same as retcon) the Ringworld had a much larger population at the start, including Protectors etc, but the Puppeteers saw it all as a threat and basically killed them off via their anti-superconductor virus etc. which also disabled much of the technology that had been originally in place.

    No, the Protectors were dead long before the Puppeteers seeded it with their anti-superconductor virus or bacterium.

    Hmm, but why? Been a long time since I read those too, but the only reason I can think of would be if there was no Tree Of Life on the Ringworld. But there had to be, because that’s what turned Teela Brown into a Protector. (Tree Of Life didn’t grow on Earth, though, which is why Earth didn’t have Protectors.)

    All of this is moot given that humanity can’t leave the solar system without fantasy.

14. Member
    Paul Stinchfield

    @PaulStinchfield

    

    6:07 PM EDT ⋅ Jul 21, 2022

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    It’s fantasy. Or science fantasy. Your demand that it all make perfect scientific sense is about as reasonable as requiring that a symphony be blue or a painting be in the chromatic scale. If you don’t like fantasy, fine. But don’t demand something that is not part of that genre.

    I don’t demand things be written certain ways, and I don’t think fantasy should be banned. But it bugs me when some people claim stuff like “Stars My Destination” is sci-fi when it clearly isn’t. With stuff like “jaunting” it can only be faaantasy, not even “speculative fiction.”

    You’ll have to take up your complaint with a very large number of science fiction writers and editors and critics.

    I’ve never had a problem with being the only person who’s right about something.

    Somewhere in the next world a large number of famous and award-winning writers are laughing at you.

    And I’m out of here because talking with you is pointless.

15. Member
    Django

    @Django

    6:09 PM EDT ⋅ Jul 21, 2022

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Django (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Django (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    But what big advantage is there to “space jaunting” if you have to have been there first already by regular means?

    Space travel is expensive, time-consuming, and dangerous. “Jaunting” costs nothing and is instantaneous. But in fact the protagonist is able to “jaunt” to places he has never been before, which opens up travel to the stars.

    Faaaantasy!

    Now you are just being silly: I demonstrated the advantage of “jaunting” over space ships, and your response was irrelevant to my point.

    Also, what evidence is there that “jaunting” could ever be instantaneous? Even if nothing else about “jaunting” is pure faaantasy, sure seems like that would be!

    Which adds to my earlier argument, of course. Where we see the Moon is where it WAS about 1.3 seconds ago. If you could “jaunt” at the speed of light, it would take you another 1.3 seconds to get to where the moon WAS. And in 2.6 seconds, the moon in its orbit has moved about 2.6 miles. So, give or take, you would arrive either in space 2.6 miles “above” the moon’s surface, or buried 2.6 miles beneath it. Either way, it’s a “bad trip.” (Especially if you still had your Earth-surface velocity!)

    Are you just trolling us? If so, stop. It’s annoying and foolish.

    My argument might be that those who think garbage like “jaunting” is just “suspension of disbelief” are the ones trolling.

    You are the one arguing the mechanics of something everyone else in the discussion already regards as impossible.

    “Impossible even with advanced technology” would be one thing that makes something fantasy, not sci-fi or even “speculative fiction.”

    So? Look; the stupidest idea in Star Trek teleporter/transporter, whatever it’s called, but it didn’t keep me from enjoying one or two episodes of an otherwise forgettable series.

    Star Trek could have been written without the transporter. Even fans of “Stars My Destination” agree that there’s no story without “jaunting.”

    You’ve forgotten PyrE which everybody thought was the main point until the end of the novel when Gully Foyle’s space jaunting capability is revealed as more important. 

    Bur as I said, the transporter doesn’t bother me much, though it does make me question why people regard Star Trek as a “science fiction series”. Same can be said of Blake’s 7. Both should be fantasy if solid science is a requirement for science fiction. What bothered me most about the original Star Trek was the silliness of most of the storylines. The “next generation” was just unwatchable. 

    That’s it for me for today. 

16. Coolidge
    kedavis

    @kedavis

    6:11 PM EDT ⋅ Jul 21, 2022

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Niven had the benefit that just because the first (mostly-)human visitors to the Ringworld didn’t see the thrusters, doesn’t mean they weren’t there all along.

    As I recall, the thing about mountains and “spill-pipes” etc wasn’t in the first book either.

    Or maybe that was, but just not the thrusters.

    None of the three were in the first book. But even with spill pipes I don’t believe in the Ringworld: It would require a Brobdingnagian army of Protectors merely to constantly rebuild the constantly eroding landscape. It was a fun concept, but I didn’t put that much stock in it as a believable working world. In some ways the first <i>Protector</i> novel was the most satisfying, because it left many questions unanswered rather than offering dubious answers.

    Hmm well remember, as it turned out (one could argue it was retcon but there were so many unanswered questions in the first book, providing answers isn’t necessarily the same as retcon) the Ringworld had a much larger population at the start, including Protectors etc, but the Puppeteers saw it all as a threat and basically killed them off via their anti-superconductor virus etc. which also disabled much of the technology that had been originally in place.

    No, the Protectors were dead long before the Puppeteers seeded it with their anti-superconductor virus or bacterium.

    Hmm, but why? Been a long time since I read those too, but the only reason I can think of would be if there was no Tree Of Life on the Ringworld. But there had to be, because that’s what turned Teela Brown into a Protector. (Tree Of Life didn’t grow on Earth, though, which is why Earth didn’t have Protectors.)

    All of this is moot given that humanity can’t leave the solar system without fantasy.

    What makes you think that?  Voyager 1 has left the solar system, and it was launched almost 45 years ago.  I’m sure we could do even better now.

17. Coolidge
    kedavis

    @kedavis

    6:11 PM EDT ⋅ Jul 21, 2022

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    It’s fantasy. Or science fantasy. Your demand that it all make perfect scientific sense is about as reasonable as requiring that a symphony be blue or a painting be in the chromatic scale. If you don’t like fantasy, fine. But don’t demand something that is not part of that genre.

    I don’t demand things be written certain ways, and I don’t think fantasy should be banned. But it bugs me when some people claim stuff like “Stars My Destination” is sci-fi when it clearly isn’t. With stuff like “jaunting” it can only be faaantasy, not even “speculative fiction.”

    You’ll have to take up your complaint with a very large number of science fiction writers and editors and critics.

    I’ve never had a problem with being the only person who’s right about something.

    Somewhere in the next world a large number of famous and award-winning writers are laughing at you.

    And I’m out of here because talking with you is pointless.

    If winning awards made someone right, then Paul Krugman would be right about economics.

18. Member
    Judge Mental

    @JudgeMental

    6:18 PM EDT ⋅ Jul 21, 2022

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Niven had the benefit that just because the first (mostly-)human visitors to the Ringworld didn’t see the thrusters, doesn’t mean they weren’t there all along.

    As I recall, the thing about mountains and “spill-pipes” etc wasn’t in the first book either.

    Or maybe that was, but just not the thrusters.

    None of the three were in the first book. But even with spill pipes I don’t believe in the Ringworld: It would require a Brobdingnagian army of Protectors merely to constantly rebuild the constantly eroding landscape. It was a fun concept, but I didn’t put that much stock in it as a believable working world. In some ways the first <i>Protector</i> novel was the most satisfying, because it left many questions unanswered rather than offering dubious answers.

    Hmm well remember, as it turned out (one could argue it was retcon but there were so many unanswered questions in the first book, providing answers isn’t necessarily the same as retcon) the Ringworld had a much larger population at the start, including Protectors etc, but the Puppeteers saw it all as a threat and basically killed them off via their anti-superconductor virus etc. which also disabled much of the technology that had been originally in place.

    No, the Protectors were dead long before the Puppeteers seeded it with their anti-superconductor virus or bacterium.

    Hmm, but why? Been a long time since I read those too, but the only reason I can think of would be if there was no Tree Of Life on the Ringworld. But there had to be, because that’s what turned Teela Brown into a Protector. (Tree Of Life didn’t grow on Earth, though, which is why Earth didn’t have Protectors.)

    All of this is moot given that humanity can’t leave the solar system without fantasy.

    What makes you think that? Voyager 1 has left the solar system, and it was launched almost 45 years ago. I’m sure we could do even better now.

    It’s past Pluto, but it has not left the solar system.  But remind me, how many people is Voyager carrying?

19. Coolidge
    kedavis

    @kedavis

    6:22 PM EDT ⋅ Jul 21, 2022

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Niven had the benefit that just because the first (mostly-)human visitors to the Ringworld didn’t see the thrusters, doesn’t mean they weren’t there all along.

    As I recall, the thing about mountains and “spill-pipes” etc wasn’t in the first book either.

    Or maybe that was, but just not the thrusters.

    None of the three were in the first book. But even with spill pipes I don’t believe in the Ringworld: It would require a Brobdingnagian army of Protectors merely to constantly rebuild the constantly eroding landscape. It was a fun concept, but I didn’t put that much stock in it as a believable working world. In some ways the first <i>Protector</i> novel was the most satisfying, because it left many questions unanswered rather than offering dubious answers.

    Hmm well remember, as it turned out (one could argue it was retcon but there were so many unanswered questions in the first book, providing answers isn’t necessarily the same as retcon) the Ringworld had a much larger population at the start, including Protectors etc, but the Puppeteers saw it all as a threat and basically killed them off via their anti-superconductor virus etc. which also disabled much of the technology that had been originally in place.

    No, the Protectors were dead long before the Puppeteers seeded it with their anti-superconductor virus or bacterium.

    Hmm, but why? Been a long time since I read those too, but the only reason I can think of would be if there was no Tree Of Life on the Ringworld. But there had to be, because that’s what turned Teela Brown into a Protector. (Tree Of Life didn’t grow on Earth, though, which is why Earth didn’t have Protectors.)

    All of this is moot given that humanity can’t leave the solar system without fantasy.

    What makes you think that? Voyager 1 has left the solar system, and it was launched almost 45 years ago. I’m sure we could do even better now.

    It’s past Pluto, but it has not left the solar system. But remind me, how many people is Voyager carrying?

    Not the point.  Not all that long ago, there were people who claimed you’d die if you went faster than 35mph or whatever it was.  Sending people outside of the solar system is just a technical problem which even if it took decades or perhaps centuries to solve, means it’s not fantasy.

20. Member
    Judge Mental

    @JudgeMental

    6:26 PM EDT ⋅ Jul 21, 2022

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Niven had the benefit that just because the first (mostly-)human visitors to the Ringworld didn’t see the thrusters, doesn’t mean they weren’t there all along.

    As I recall, the thing about mountains and “spill-pipes” etc wasn’t in the first book either.

    Or maybe that was, but just not the thrusters.

    None of the three were in the first book. But even with spill pipes I don’t believe in the Ringworld: It would require a Brobdingnagian army of Protectors merely to constantly rebuild the constantly eroding landscape. It was a fun concept, but I didn’t put that much stock in it as a believable working world. In some ways the first <i>Protector</i> novel was the most satisfying, because it left many questions unanswered rather than offering dubious answers.

    Hmm well remember, as it turned out (one could argue it was retcon but there were so many unanswered questions in the first book, providing answers isn’t necessarily the same as retcon) the Ringworld had a much larger population at the start, including Protectors etc, but the Puppeteers saw it all as a threat and basically killed them off via their anti-superconductor virus etc. which also disabled much of the technology that had been originally in place.

    No, the Protectors were dead long before the Puppeteers seeded it with their anti-superconductor virus or bacterium.

    Hmm, but why? Been a long time since I read those too, but the only reason I can think of would be if there was no Tree Of Life on the Ringworld. But there had to be, because that’s what turned Teela Brown into a Protector. (Tree Of Life didn’t grow on Earth, though, which is why Earth didn’t have Protectors.)

    All of this is moot given that humanity can’t leave the solar system without fantasy.

    What makes you think that? Voyager 1 has left the solar system, and it was launched almost 45 years ago. I’m sure we could do even better now.

    It’s past Pluto, but it has not left the solar system. But remind me, how many people is Voyager carrying?

    Not the point. Not all that long ago, there were people who claimed you’d die if you went faster than 35mph or whatever it was. Sending people outside of the solar system is just a technical problem which even if it took decades or perhaps centuries to solve, means it’s not fantasy.

    Except you said that Ringworld is not fantasy.  Do you remember anyone in that story other than the Outsiders traveling through normal space?  Fantasy.

21. Member
    Miffed White Male

    @MiffedWhiteMale

    

    6:31 PM EDT ⋅ Jul 21, 2022

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    It’s fantasy. Or science fantasy. Your demand that it all make perfect scientific sense is about as reasonable as requiring that a symphony be blue or a painting be in the chromatic scale. If you don’t like fantasy, fine. But don’t demand something that is not part of that genre.

    I don’t demand things be written certain ways, and I don’t think fantasy should be banned. But it bugs me when some people claim stuff like “Stars My Destination” is sci-fi when it clearly isn’t. With stuff like “jaunting” it can only be faaantasy, not even “speculative fiction.”

    You’ll have to take up your complaint with a very large number of science fiction writers and editors and critics.

    I’ve never had a problem with being the only person who’s right about something.

    How would you know?

22. Coolidge
    kedavis

    @kedavis

    6:31 PM EDT ⋅ Jul 21, 2022

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Niven had the benefit that just because the first (mostly-)human visitors to the Ringworld didn’t see the thrusters, doesn’t mean they weren’t there all along.

    As I recall, the thing about mountains and “spill-pipes” etc wasn’t in the first book either.

    Or maybe that was, but just not the thrusters.

    None of the three were in the first book. But even with spill pipes I don’t believe in the Ringworld: It would require a Brobdingnagian army of Protectors merely to constantly rebuild the constantly eroding landscape. It was a fun concept, but I didn’t put that much stock in it as a believable working world. In some ways the first <i>Protector</i> novel was the most satisfying, because it left many questions unanswered rather than offering dubious answers.

    Hmm well remember, as it turned out (one could argue it was retcon but there were so many unanswered questions in the first book, providing answers isn’t necessarily the same as retcon) the Ringworld had a much larger population at the start, including Protectors etc, but the Puppeteers saw it all as a threat and basically killed them off via their anti-superconductor virus etc. which also disabled much of the technology that had been originally in place.

    No, the Protectors were dead long before the Puppeteers seeded it with their anti-superconductor virus or bacterium.

    Hmm, but why? Been a long time since I read those too, but the only reason I can think of would be if there was no Tree Of Life on the Ringworld. But there had to be, because that’s what turned Teela Brown into a Protector. (Tree Of Life didn’t grow on Earth, though, which is why Earth didn’t have Protectors.)

    All of this is moot given that humanity can’t leave the solar system without fantasy.

    What makes you think that? Voyager 1 has left the solar system, and it was launched almost 45 years ago. I’m sure we could do even better now.

    It’s past Pluto, but it has not left the solar system. But remind me, how many people is Voyager carrying?

    Not the point. Not all that long ago, there were people who claimed you’d die if you went faster than 35mph or whatever it was. Sending people outside of the solar system is just a technical problem which even if it took decades or perhaps centuries to solve, means it’s not fantasy.

    Except you said that Ringworld is not fantasy. Do you remember anyone in that story other than the Outsiders traveling through normal space? Fantasy.

    Expending energy etc to travel even theoretically faster-than-light may turn out to be impossible, ultimately, but “wishing” yourself somewhere else is fantasy now, and always has been.

23. Coolidge
    kedavis

    @kedavis

    6:37 PM EDT ⋅ Jul 21, 2022

    Also, everyone in Niven’s stories started out with “slow-boat” technology.

24. Member
    Miffed White Male

    @MiffedWhiteMale

    

    6:39 PM EDT ⋅ Jul 21, 2022

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    .)

    All of this is moot given that humanity can’t leave the solar system without fantasy.

    What makes you think that? Voyager 1 has left the solar system, and it was launched almost 45 years ago. I’m sure we could do even better now.

    It’s past Pluto, but it has not left the solar system. But remind me, how many people is Voyager carrying s

    it’s been almost 9 years.

    https://www.space.com/22729-voyager-1-spacecraft-interstellar-space.html

25. Coolidge
    CarolJoy, Not So Easy To Kill

    @CarolJoy

    8:02 PM EDT ⋅ Jul 21, 2022

    WilliamDean (View Comment):

    Snow Crash and The Diamond Age, both by Neal Stephenson, could be made with today’s technology

    Also, The Illuminatus! Trilogy of books could make for some weird entertainment.

    I missed out on hearing Stephenson had published another book, The Diamond Age.

    Gonna have to  order it right now.

26. Member
    Charlotte

    @Charlotte

    

    3:51 AM EDT ⋅ Jul 22, 2022

    Tex929rr (View Comment):

    This is a bigger nerd fight than the one we had over in Ricochet Movie Fight Club.

    Well, it’s certainly less interesting.

27. Coolidge
    Tex929rr

    @Tex929rr

    4:56 AM EDT ⋅ Jul 22, 2022

    Charlotte (View Comment):

    Tex929rr (View Comment):

    This is a bigger nerd fight than the one we had over in Ricochet Movie Fight Club.

    Well, it’s certainly less interesting.

    Concur.

28. Coolidge
    David C. Broussard

    @Dbroussa

    Post author

    7:39 AM EDT ⋅ Jul 22, 2022

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Also, Clarke’s line is about how any sufficiently-advanced technology would APPEAR TO BE magic.

    Not that it IS magic.

    Just that it APPEARS TO BE magic.

    Even if we don’t currently know how to make them, stepping discs are not magic.

    Jaunting would be. Because there’s deliberately no technology behind it.

    So to sum up…since it is portrayed as an innate ability of humans as opposed to a technological device you call it magic and thus it is fantasy.  So, I take it you don’t watch any superhero movies either?

29. Coolidge
    David C. Broussard

    @Dbroussa

    Post author

    7:51 AM EDT ⋅ Jul 22, 2022

    Tex929rr (View Comment):

    This is a bigger nerd fight than the one we had over in Ricochet Movie Fight Club.

    It happens every time the discussion of Sci-Fi comes up.  I remember a panel at ArmadilloCon many years ago about hard and soft Sci-Fi and one of the panelists asserted that the only “real” Sci-Fi was that which only included technology that we could understand and reasonably build.  Thus, no FTL was allowed, and no materials science either.  At the time I think they didn’t even have carbon nanotubes yet.

    As one of the other panelists who wrote Sci-Fi said something to effect of, If I wanted to write technothrillers, I’d write technothrillers, but I want to explore the stars in my works.  You can call them fantasy if you like, but no one else does, you might ponder on that.

30. Coolidge
    David C. Broussard

    @Dbroussa

    Post author

    7:52 AM EDT ⋅ Jul 22, 2022

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    It’s fantasy. Or science fantasy. Your demand that it all make perfect scientific sense is about as reasonable as requiring that a symphony be blue or a painting be in the chromatic scale. If you don’t like fantasy, fine. But don’t demand something that is not part of that genre.

    I don’t demand things be written certain ways, and I don’t think fantasy should be banned. But it bugs me when some people claim stuff like “Stars My Destination” is sci-fi when it clearly isn’t. With stuff like “jaunting” it can only be faaantasy, not even “speculative fiction.”

    You’ll have to take up your complaint with a very large number of science fiction writers and editors and critics.

    I’ve never had a problem with being the only person who’s right about something.

    One reason that I like you so much!