There are 293 comments.

1. Inactive
   I am Jack's Mexican identity

   @dnewlander

   4:24 PM EDT ⋅ Jul 21, 2022

   kedavis (View Comment):

   I am Jack’s Mexican identity (View Comment):

   kedavis (View Comment):

   Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

   kedavis (View Comment):
   “Jaunting” has so many problems it’s difficult to know where to begin. If you’re going to “jaunt” to someplace, wouldn’t you necessarily need to know where it is?

   As a matter of fact, that was a key plot element: You could not “jaunt” to someplace unless you already knew where it was, and in order to know that you had to physically visit it first by conventional means.

   A second key plot element was that nobody could “jaunt” more than a few hundred to a thousand miles, which meant that it was useless for space travel. But the protagonist was being hunted down by ruthless powers because, unknown to himself, he had “space jaunted” across the solar system while delirious from injuries.

   There are numerous scientific problems with the novel, as well as sociological problems–spaceship crews will always be highly skilled people, not the uneducated illiterate gutter trash that the protagonist is.

   So call the novel “science fantasy” rather than “science fiction”.

   But a very large part of the novel’s appeal lies not in the plot but in Bester’s pyrotechnic writing, which, if I recall hearing correctly, hit the science fiction world like a bomb. Take away Bester’s amazing writing style and you take away a lot of what made the novel so memorable–and made it such an influence on other writers.

   I have fleeting memories of the book, since I read it so long ago. But what big advantage is there to “space jaunting” if you have to have been there first already by regular means? Cuts way down on the value. Also, the “been there before” might be sort of a maguffin, but it doesn’t make sense since – as indicated previously – all of these other places are constantly moving. Nor does it answer the problem that it’s basically still witchcraft or magic, if they’re doing it just by thought without expending great quantities of energy as would normally be required. At least in my book, even “science fantasy” is insufficiently dismissive.

   “The Ringworld is unstable!!”

   It’s a book. Relax.

   Yes, it’s a book. It’s a fantasy book. And I avoid fantasy books, which is difficult and irritating when fantasy gets disguised as sci-fi. Say what you will about the Ringworld books, but I don’t remember a bit of fantasy in any of them.

   How are the teleportation discs that ruin Earth much different than “jaunting”? They’re both basically magic.

2. Coolidge
   kedavis

   @kedavis

   4:32 PM EDT ⋅ Jul 21, 2022

   I am Jack's Mexican identity (View Comment):

   kedavis (View Comment):

   I am Jack’s Mexican identity (View Comment):

   kedavis (View Comment):

   Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

   As a matter of fact, that was a key plot element: You could not “jaunt” to someplace unless you already knew where it was, and in order to know that you had to physically visit it first by conventional means.

   A second key plot element was that nobody could “jaunt” more than a few hundred to a thousand miles, which meant that it was useless for space travel. But the protagonist was being hunted down by ruthless powers because, unknown to himself, he had “space jaunted” across the solar system while delirious from injuries.

   I have fleeting memories of the book, since I read it so long ago. But what big advantage is there to “space jaunting” if you have to have been there first already by regular means? Cuts way down on the value. Also, the “been there before” might be sort of a maguffin, but it doesn’t make sense since – as indicated previously – all of these other places are constantly moving. Nor does it answer the problem that it’s basically still witchcraft or magic, if they’re doing it just by thought without expending great quantities of energy as would normally be required. At least in my book, even “science fantasy” is insufficiently dismissive.

   “The Ringworld is unstable!!”

   It’s a book. Relax.

   Yes, it’s a book. It’s a fantasy book. And I avoid fantasy books, which is difficult and irritating when fantasy gets disguised as sci-fi. Say what you will about the Ringworld books, but I don’t remember a bit of fantasy in any of them.

   How are the teleportation discs that ruin Earth much different than “jaunting”? They’re both basically magic.

   The “stepping discs” used technology that required energy etc.  They are impossible now, and may turn out to be impossible for the foreseeable future, but that’s still not magic.  Also, other/earlier Niven stories about “jump-shift” technology etc dealt with differences of velocity etc, which “jaunting” totally ignores.

   I could also point out that nothing in Niven’s work – except some of the stories dealing with it specifically – requires the stepping discs etc.  They could be written using other means.  Not so with “jaunting.”  Stepping discs are not key to (hardly) any of Niven’s stories, the way “jaunting” is for Stars My Destination.

3. Member
   Django

   @Django

   4:34 PM EDT ⋅ Jul 21, 2022

   I am Jack's Mexican identity (View Comment):

   kedavis (View Comment):

   Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

   kedavis (View Comment):
   “Jaunting” has so many problems it’s difficult to know where to begin. If you’re going to “jaunt” to someplace, wouldn’t you necessarily need to know where it is?

   As a matter of fact, that was a key plot element: You could not “jaunt” to someplace unless you already knew where it was, and in order to know that you had to physically visit it first by conventional means.

   A second key plot element was that nobody could “jaunt” more than a few hundred to a thousand miles, which meant that it was useless for space travel. But the protagonist was being hunted down by ruthless powers because, unknown to himself, he had “space jaunted” across the solar system while delirious from injuries.

   There are numerous scientific problems with the novel, as well as sociological problems–spaceship crews will always be highly skilled people, not the uneducated illiterate gutter trash that the protagonist is.

   So call the novel “science fantasy” rather than “science fiction”.

   But a very large part of the novel’s appeal lies not in the plot but in Bester’s pyrotechnic writing, which, if I recall hearing correctly, hit the science fiction world like a bomb. Take away Bester’s amazing writing style and you take away a lot of what made the novel so memorable–and made it such an influence on other writers.

   I have fleeting memories of the book, since I read it so long ago. But what big advantage is there to “space jaunting” if you have to have been there first already by regular means? Cuts way down on the value. Also, the “been there before” might be sort of a maguffin, but it doesn’t make sense since – as indicated previously – all of these other places are constantly moving. Nor does it answer the problem that it’s basically still witchcraft or magic, if they’re doing it just by thought without expending great quantities of energy as would normally be required. At least in my book, even “science fantasy” is insufficiently dismissive.

   “The Ringworld is unstable!!”

   It’s a book. Relax.

   It was done in the VVLH reference frame, which is itself a moving frame. Solves a lot of problems. No harder than catching a long fly ball when playing center field. After all, in that case you have to run to where the ball will be when it’s a few feet above the ground and time your arrival correctly. Damn hard the first few times you try it. 

4. Inactive
   I am Jack's Mexican identity

   @dnewlander

   4:35 PM EDT ⋅ Jul 21, 2022

   kedavis (View Comment):

   I am Jack’s Mexican identity (View Comment):

   kedavis (View Comment):

   I am Jack’s Mexican identity (View Comment):

   kedavis (View Comment):

   Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

   As a matter of fact, that was a key plot element: You could not “jaunt” to someplace unless you already knew where it was, and in order to know that you had to physically visit it first by conventional means.

   A second key plot element was that nobody could “jaunt” more than a few hundred to a thousand miles, which meant that it was useless for space travel. But the protagonist was being hunted down by ruthless powers because, unknown to himself, he had “space jaunted” across the solar system while delirious from injuries.

   I have fleeting memories of the book, since I read it so long ago. But what big advantage is there to “space jaunting” if you have to have been there first already by regular means? Cuts way down on the value. Also, the “been there before” might be sort of a maguffin, but it doesn’t make sense since – as indicated previously – all of these other places are constantly moving. Nor does it answer the problem that it’s basically still witchcraft or magic, if they’re doing it just by thought without expending great quantities of energy as would normally be required. At least in my book, even “science fantasy” is insufficiently dismissive.

   “The Ringworld is unstable!!”

   It’s a book. Relax.

   Yes, it’s a book. It’s a fantasy book. And I avoid fantasy books, which is difficult and irritating when fantasy gets disguised as sci-fi. Say what you will about the Ringworld books, but I don’t remember a bit of fantasy in any of them.

   How are the teleportation discs that ruin Earth much different than “jaunting”? They’re both basically magic.

   The “stepping discs” used technology that required energy etc. They are impossible now, and may turn out to be impossible for the foreseeable future, but that’s still not magic. Also, other/earlier Niven stories about “jump-shift” technology etc dealt with differences of velocity etc, which “jaunting” totally ignores.

   I could also point out that nothing in Niven’s work – except some of the stories dealing with it specifically – requires the stepping discs etc. They could be written using other means. Not so with “jaunting.” Stepping discs are not key to (hardly) any of Niven’s stories, the way “jaunting” is for Stars My Destination.

   Arthur C Clarke, phone your office.

   Whatever. You don’t like the book. Arguing about it this long is pointless.

5. Coolidge
   kedavis

   @kedavis

   4:46 PM EDT ⋅ Jul 21, 2022

   I am Jack's Mexican identity (View Comment):

   kedavis (View Comment):

   I am Jack’s Mexican identity (View Comment):

   kedavis (View Comment):

   I am Jack’s Mexican identity (View Comment):

   kedavis (View Comment):

   Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

   As a matter of fact, that was a key plot element: You could not “jaunt” to someplace unless you already knew where it was, and in order to know that you had to physically visit it first by conventional means.

   A second key plot element was that nobody could “jaunt” more than a few hundred to a thousand miles, which meant that it was useless for space travel. But the protagonist was being hunted down by ruthless powers because, unknown to himself, he had “space jaunted” across the solar system while delirious from injuries.

   I have fleeting memories of the book, since I read it so long ago. But what big advantage is there to “space jaunting” if you have to have been there first already by regular means? Cuts way down on the value. Also, the “been there before” might be sort of a maguffin, but it doesn’t make sense since – as indicated previously – all of these other places are constantly moving. Nor does it answer the problem that it’s basically still witchcraft or magic, if they’re doing it just by thought without expending great quantities of energy as would normally be required. At least in my book, even “science fantasy” is insufficiently dismissive.

   “The Ringworld is unstable!!”

   It’s a book. Relax.

   Yes, it’s a book. It’s a fantasy book. And I avoid fantasy books, which is difficult and irritating when fantasy gets disguised as sci-fi. Say what you will about the Ringworld books, but I don’t remember a bit of fantasy in any of them.

   How are the teleportation discs that ruin Earth much different than “jaunting”? They’re both basically magic.

   The “stepping discs” used technology that required energy etc. They are impossible now, and may turn out to be impossible for the foreseeable future, but that’s still not magic. Also, other/earlier Niven stories about “jump-shift” technology etc dealt with differences of velocity etc, which “jaunting” totally ignores.

   I could also point out that nothing in Niven’s work – except some of the stories dealing with it specifically – requires the stepping discs etc. They could be written using other means. Not so with “jaunting.” Stepping discs are not key to (hardly) any of Niven’s stories, the way “jaunting” is for Stars My Destination.

   Arthur C Clarke, phone your office.

   Whatever. You don’t like the book. Arguing about it this long is pointless.

   I can’t find a clip online, but there was a Bugs Bunny cartoon where Bugs is on a plane or rocket or something, that’s about to crash.  At the last second, he steps out and gently lands on the ground.

   That’s what “jaunting” would have to be, and it’s ridiculous.

6. Coolidge
   kedavis

   @kedavis

   4:48 PM EDT ⋅ Jul 21, 2022

   Also, Clarke’s line is about how any sufficiently-advanced technology would APPEAR TO BE magic.

   Not that it IS magic.

   Just that it APPEARS TO BE magic.

   Even if we don’t currently know how to make them, stepping discs are not magic.

   Jaunting would be.  Because there’s deliberately no technology behind it.

7. Inactive
   I am Jack's Mexican identity

   @dnewlander

   4:52 PM EDT ⋅ Jul 21, 2022

   kedavis (View Comment):

   Also, Clarke’s line is about how any sufficiently-advanced technology would APPEAR TO BE magic.

   Not that it IS magic.

   Just that it APPEARS TO BE magic.

   Even if we don’t currently know how to make them, stepping discs are not magic.

   Jaunting would be. Because there’s deliberately no technology behind it.

   rolls eyes

   Don’t like the book. Fine.

8. Member
   Paul Stinchfield

   @PaulStinchfield

   

   4:52 PM EDT ⋅ Jul 21, 2022

   kedavis (View Comment):
   But what big advantage is there to “space jaunting” if you have to have been there first already by regular means?

   Space travel is expensive, time-consuming, and dangerous. “Jaunting” costs nothing and is instantaneous. But in fact the protagonist is able to “jaunt” to places he has never been before, which opens up travel to the stars.

9. Member
   Paul Stinchfield

   @PaulStinchfield

   

   4:53 PM EDT ⋅ Jul 21, 2022

   I am Jack's Mexican identity (View Comment):
   “The Ringworld is unstable!!”

   In the first edition, the Earth turns in the wrong direction. An embarrassing mistake for a hard sf writer to make.

10. Coolidge
    kedavis

    @kedavis

    4:55 PM EDT ⋅ Jul 21, 2022

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    But what big advantage is there to “space jaunting” if you have to have been there first already by regular means?

    Space travel is expensive, time-consuming, and dangerous. “Jaunting” costs nothing and is instantaneous. But in fact the protagonist is able to “jaunt” to places he has never been before, which opens up travel to the stars.

    Faaaantasy!

11. Inactive
    I am Jack's Mexican identity

    @dnewlander

    4:57 PM EDT ⋅ Jul 21, 2022

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    I am Jack’s Mexican identity (View Comment):
    “The Ringworld is unstable!!”

    In the first edition, the Earth turns in the wrong direction. An embarrassing mistake for a hard sf writer to make.

    My quote referred to a bunch of MIT engineering students who confronted Niven at one of the early WorldCons (presumably in the Boston area).

    They’d done the math and figured out that the Ringworld was going to lose orbit and collapse into its sun.

    That’s why he added the thrusters in Ringworld Engineers and kept them for later books.

    But that doesn’t degrade my enjoyment of the first book one single bit.

12. Member
    Django

    @Django

    4:57 PM EDT ⋅ Jul 21, 2022

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    But what big advantage is there to “space jaunting” if you have to have been there first already by regular means?

    Space travel is expensive, time-consuming, and dangerous. “Jaunting” costs nothing and is instantaneous. But in fact the protagonist is able to “jaunt” to places he has never been before, which opens up travel to the stars.

    Bester seemed to write in more than one story about the untapped capabilities of the human mind. I don’t know what his inspiration was, but it was the effect such a capability would have on the inhabited worlds of the Solar system that made the story. That and the substance that its fictional inventor believed was the synthesized equivalent of the “primordial proto-matter that exploded into the Universe.” A substance that could be triggered by “Will and Idea”. Jaunting seemed pretty tame alongside that. 

13. Inactive
    I am Jack's Mexican identity

    @dnewlander

    4:58 PM EDT ⋅ Jul 21, 2022

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    But what big advantage is there to “space jaunting” if you have to have been there first already by regular means?

    Space travel is expensive, time-consuming, and dangerous. “Jaunting” costs nothing and is instantaneous. But in fact the protagonist is able to “jaunt” to places he has never been before, which opens up travel to the stars.

    Faaaantasy!

    “FICTION!”

14. Member
    Django

    @Django

    4:58 PM EDT ⋅ Jul 21, 2022

    I am Jack's Mexican identity (View Comment):

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    I am Jack’s Mexican identity (View Comment):
    “The Ringworld is unstable!!”

    In the first edition, the Earth turns in the wrong direction. An embarrassing mistake for a hard sf writer to make.

    My quote referred to a bunch of MIT engineering students who confronted Niven at one of the early WorldCons (presumably in the Boston area).

    They’d done the math and figured out that the Ringworld was going to lose orbit and collapse into its sun.

    That’s why he added the thrusters in Ringworld Engineers and kept them for later books.

    But that doesn’t degrade my enjoyment of the first book one single bit.

    As Miffed said above, “suspension of disbelief”. 

15. Inactive
    I am Jack's Mexican identity

    @dnewlander

    5:02 PM EDT ⋅ Jul 21, 2022

    Django (View Comment):

    I am Jack’s Mexican identity (View Comment):

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    I am Jack’s Mexican identity (View Comment):
    “The Ringworld is unstable!!”

    In the first edition, the Earth turns in the wrong direction. An embarrassing mistake for a hard sf writer to make.

    My quote referred to a bunch of MIT engineering students who confronted Niven at one of the early WorldCons (presumably in the Boston area).

    They’d done the math and figured out that the Ringworld was going to lose orbit and collapse into its sun.

    That’s why he added the thrusters in Ringworld Engineers and kept them for later books.

    But that doesn’t degrade my enjoyment of the first book one single bit.

    As Miffed said above, “suspension of disbelief”.

    “FICTION”.

16. Coolidge
    kedavis

    @kedavis

    5:06 PM EDT ⋅ Jul 21, 2022

    I am Jack's Mexican identity (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    But what big advantage is there to “space jaunting” if you have to have been there first already by regular means?

    Space travel is expensive, time-consuming, and dangerous. “Jaunting” costs nothing and is instantaneous. But in fact the protagonist is able to “jaunt” to places he has never been before, which opens up travel to the stars.

    Faaaantasy!

    “FICTION!”

    All fantasy is fiction.  But not all fiction is fantasy.

17. Inactive
    I am Jack's Mexican identity

    @dnewlander

    5:08 PM EDT ⋅ Jul 21, 2022

    kedavis (View Comment):

    I am Jack’s Mexican identity (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    But what big advantage is there to “space jaunting” if you have to have been there first already by regular means?

    Space travel is expensive, time-consuming, and dangerous. “Jaunting” costs nothing and is instantaneous. But in fact the protagonist is able to “jaunt” to places he has never been before, which opens up travel to the stars.

    Faaaantasy!

    “FICTION!”

    All fantasy is fiction. But not all fiction is fantasy.

    I get it. You don’t like the conceit of mind-generation teleportation. Cool.

18. Coolidge
    kedavis

    @kedavis

    5:09 PM EDT ⋅ Jul 21, 2022

    Django (View Comment):

    I am Jack’s Mexican identity (View Comment):

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    I am Jack’s Mexican identity (View Comment):
    “The Ringworld is unstable!!”

    In the first edition, the Earth turns in the wrong direction. An embarrassing mistake for a hard sf writer to make.

    My quote referred to a bunch of MIT engineering students who confronted Niven at one of the early WorldCons (presumably in the Boston area).

    They’d done the math and figured out that the Ringworld was going to lose orbit and collapse into its sun.

    That’s why he added the thrusters in Ringworld Engineers and kept them for later books.

    But that doesn’t degrade my enjoyment of the first book one single bit.

    As Miffed said above, “suspension of disbelief”.

    Niven had the benefit that just because the first (mostly-)human visitors to the Ringworld didn’t see the thrusters, doesn’t mean they weren’t there all along.

    As I recall, the thing about mountains and “spill-pipes” etc wasn’t in the first book either.

    Or maybe that was, but just not the thrusters.

19. Member
    Paul Stinchfield

    @PaulStinchfield

    

    5:13 PM EDT ⋅ Jul 21, 2022

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    But what big advantage is there to “space jaunting” if you have to have been there first already by regular means?

    Space travel is expensive, time-consuming, and dangerous. “Jaunting” costs nothing and is instantaneous. But in fact the protagonist is able to “jaunt” to places he has never been before, which opens up travel to the stars.

    Faaaantasy!

    Now you are just being silly: I demonstrated the advantage of “jaunting” over space ships, and your response was irrelevant to my point.

20. Coolidge
    kedavis

    @kedavis

    5:17 PM EDT ⋅ Jul 21, 2022

    I am Jack's Mexican identity (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    I am Jack’s Mexican identity (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    But what big advantage is there to “space jaunting” if you have to have been there first already by regular means?

    Space travel is expensive, time-consuming, and dangerous. “Jaunting” costs nothing and is instantaneous. But in fact the protagonist is able to “jaunt” to places he has never been before, which opens up travel to the stars.

    Faaaantasy!

    “FICTION!”

    All fantasy is fiction. But not all fiction is fantasy.

    I get it. You don’t like the conceit of mind-generation teleportation. Cool.

    But even if it could be done, how does it compensate for different velocities?  Even just on Earth, let alone between planets etc.  Especially planets you haven’t been to before!  Just because people may not think about those things, doesn’t mean they aren’t facts.  IF you could teleport yourself just to the other side of the Earth, the shocks/impacts/etc of different inertias etc, could easily rip you apart.  Just one factor, If you were at the equator, your inertia on the Earth’s surface would be about 1,000 mph.  If you suddenly switched to the opposite side of the Earth, that surface would be moving 1,000 mph IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION (relative to you).  A total difference of 2,000 mph.  That’s just short of Mach 3, i.e., 3 times the speed of sound!

21. Inactive
    I am Jack's Mexican identity

    @dnewlander

    5:19 PM EDT ⋅ Jul 21, 2022

    kedavis (View Comment):

    I am Jack’s Mexican identity (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    I am Jack’s Mexican identity (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    But what big advantage is there to “space jaunting” if you have to have been there first already by regular means?

    Space travel is expensive, time-consuming, and dangerous. “Jaunting” costs nothing and is instantaneous. But in fact the protagonist is able to “jaunt” to places he has never been before, which opens up travel to the stars.

    Faaaantasy!

    “FICTION!”

    All fantasy is fiction. But not all fiction is fantasy.

    I get it. You don’t like the conceit of mind-generation teleportation. Cool.

    But even if it could be done, how does it compensate for different velocities? Even just on Earth, let alone between planets etc. Especially planets you haven’t been to before! Just because people may not think about those things, doesn’t mean they aren’t facts. IF you could teleport yourself just to the other side of the Earth, the shocks/impacts/etc of different inertias etc, could easily rip you apart. Just one factor, If you were at the equator, your inertia on the Earth’s surface would be about 1,000 mph. If you suddenly switched to the opposite side of the Earth, that surface would be moving 1,000 mph IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION (relative to you). A total difference of 2,000 mph. That’s just short of Mach 3, i.e., 3 times the speed of sound!

    FICTION.

22. Member
    Paul Stinchfield

    @PaulStinchfield

    

    5:20 PM EDT ⋅ Jul 21, 2022

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Django (View Comment):

    I am Jack’s Mexican identity (View Comment):

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    I am Jack’s Mexican identity (View Comment):
    “The Ringworld is unstable!!”

    In the first edition, the Earth turns in the wrong direction. An embarrassing mistake for a hard sf writer to make.

    My quote referred to a bunch of MIT engineering students who confronted Niven at one of the early WorldCons (presumably in the Boston area).

    They’d done the math and figured out that the Ringworld was going to lose orbit and collapse into its sun.

    That’s why he added the thrusters in Ringworld Engineers and kept them for later books.

    But that doesn’t degrade my enjoyment of the first book one single bit.

    As Miffed said above, “suspension of disbelief”.

    Niven had the benefit that just because the first (mostly-)human visitors to the Ringworld didn’t see the thrusters, doesn’t mean they weren’t there all along.

    As I recall, the thing about mountains and “spill-pipes” etc wasn’t in the first book either.

    Or maybe that was, but just not the thrusters.

    None of the three were in the first book. But even with spill pipes I don’t believe in the Ringworld: It would require a Brobdingnagian army of Protectors merely to constantly rebuild the constantly eroding landscape. It was a fun concept, but I didn’t put that much stock in it as a believable working world. In some ways the first <i>Protector</i> novel was the most satisfying, because it left many questions unanswered rather than offering dubious answers.

23. Member
    Paul Stinchfield

    @PaulStinchfield

    

    5:23 PM EDT ⋅ Jul 21, 2022

    I am Jack’s Mexican identity (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    I am Jack’s Mexican identity (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    I am Jack’s Mexican identity (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    But what big advantage is there to “space jaunting” if you have to have been there first already by regular means?

    Space travel is expensive, time-consuming, and dangerous. “Jaunting” costs nothing and is instantaneous. But in fact the protagonist is able to “jaunt” to places he has never been before, which opens up travel to the stars.

    Faaaantasy!

    “FICTION!”

    All fantasy is fiction. But not all fiction is fantasy.

    I get it. You don’t like the conceit of mind-generation teleportation. Cool.

    But even if it could be done, how does it compensate for different velocities? Even just on Earth, let alone between planets etc. Especially planets you haven’t been to before! Just because people may not think about those things, doesn’t mean they aren’t facts. IF you could teleport yourself just to the other side of the Earth, the shocks/impacts/etc of different inertias etc, could easily rip you apart. Just one factor, If you were at the equator, your inertia on the Earth’s surface would be about 1,000 mph. If you suddenly switched to the opposite side of the Earth, that surface would be moving 1,000 mph IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION (relative to you). A total difference of 2,000 mph. That’s just short of Mach 3, i.e., 3 times the speed of sound!

    FICTION.

    Fantasy. Or Science fantasy.

    The whole point of most stories is: “Given these circumstances, what amazing things might happen? What sorts of entertaining stories can I tell? Maybe a few new ways of exploring the human condition?”

    We don’t believe in the literal reality of ancient myths, but we enjoy them as fine stories and as powerful explorations of eternal human verities.

24. Coolidge
    kedavis

    @kedavis

    5:24 PM EDT ⋅ Jul 21, 2022

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    But what big advantage is there to “space jaunting” if you have to have been there first already by regular means?

    Space travel is expensive, time-consuming, and dangerous. “Jaunting” costs nothing and is instantaneous. But in fact the protagonist is able to “jaunt” to places he has never been before, which opens up travel to the stars.

    Faaaantasy!

    Now you are just being silly: I demonstrated the advantage of “jaunting” over space ships, and your response was irrelevant to my point.

    Also, what evidence is there that “jaunting” could ever be instantaneous?  Even if nothing else about “jaunting” is pure faaantasy, sure seems like that would be!

    Which adds to my earlier argument, of course.  Where we see the Moon is where it WAS about 1.3 seconds ago.  If you could “jaunt” at the speed of light, it would take you another 1.3 seconds to get to where the moon WAS.  And in 2.6 seconds, the moon in its orbit has moved about 2.6 miles.  So, give or take, you would arrive either in space 2.6 miles “above” the moon’s surface, or buried 2.6 miles beneath it.  Either way, it’s a “bad trip.”  (Especially if you still had your Earth-surface velocity!)

25. Inactive
    I am Jack's Mexican identity

    @dnewlander

    5:26 PM EDT ⋅ Jul 21, 2022

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    I am Jack’s Mexican identity (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    I am Jack’s Mexican identity (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    I am Jack’s Mexican identity (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    But what big advantage is there to “space jaunting” if you have to have been there first already by regular means?

    Space travel is expensive, time-consuming, and dangerous. “Jaunting” costs nothing and is instantaneous. But in fact the protagonist is able to “jaunt” to places he has never been before, which opens up travel to the stars.

    Faaaantasy!

    “FICTION!”

    All fantasy is fiction. But not all fiction is fantasy.

    I get it. You don’t like the conceit of mind-generation teleportation. Cool.

    But even if it could be done, how does it compensate for different velocities? Even just on Earth, let alone between planets etc. Especially planets you haven’t been to before! Just because people may not think about those things, doesn’t mean they aren’t facts. IF you could teleport yourself just to the other side of the Earth, the shocks/impacts/etc of different inertias etc, could easily rip you apart. Just one factor, If you were at the equator, your inertia on the Earth’s surface would be about 1,000 mph. If you suddenly switched to the opposite side of the Earth, that surface would be moving 1,000 mph IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION (relative to you). A total difference of 2,000 mph. That’s just short of Mach 3, i.e., 3 times the speed of sound!

    FICTION.

    Fantasy. Or Science fantasy.

    The whole point of most stories is: “Given these circumstances, what amazing things might happen? What sorts of entertaining stories can I tell? Maybe a few new ways of exploring the human condition?”

    We don’t believe in the literal reality of ancient myths, but we enjoy them as fine stories and as powerful explorations of eternal human verities.

    Every story has a conceit you have to accept. Otherwise it’s not a story, it’s history. And even that requires a lot of dibelief to accept the narrative.

    If you accept the conceit, then it’s fun. If you don’t, it’s not.

26. Coolidge
    kedavis

    @kedavis

    5:27 PM EDT ⋅ Jul 21, 2022

    I am Jack's Mexican identity (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    I am Jack’s Mexican identity (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    I am Jack’s Mexican identity (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    But what big advantage is there to “space jaunting” if you have to have been there first already by regular means?

    Space travel is expensive, time-consuming, and dangerous. “Jaunting” costs nothing and is instantaneous. But in fact the protagonist is able to “jaunt” to places he has never been before, which opens up travel to the stars.

    Faaaantasy!

    “FICTION!”

    All fantasy is fiction. But not all fiction is fantasy.

    I get it. You don’t like the conceit of mind-generation teleportation. Cool.

    But even if it could be done, how does it compensate for different velocities? Even just on Earth, let alone between planets etc. Especially planets you haven’t been to before! Just because people may not think about those things, doesn’t mean they aren’t facts. IF you could teleport yourself just to the other side of the Earth, the shocks/impacts/etc of different inertias etc, could easily rip you apart. Just one factor, If you were at the equator, your inertia on the Earth’s surface would be about 1,000 mph. If you suddenly switched to the opposite side of the Earth, that surface would be moving 1,000 mph IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION (relative to you). A total difference of 2,000 mph. That’s just short of Mach 3, i.e., 3 times the speed of sound!

    FICTION.

    What, you don’t think the Earth at the equator is rotating at approximately 1,000 mph?  That would make you a true Science-Denier.

27. Member
    Paul Stinchfield

    @PaulStinchfield

    

    5:28 PM EDT ⋅ Jul 21, 2022

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    But what big advantage is there to “space jaunting” if you have to have been there first already by regular means?

    Space travel is expensive, time-consuming, and dangerous. “Jaunting” costs nothing and is instantaneous. But in fact the protagonist is able to “jaunt” to places he has never been before, which opens up travel to the stars.

    Faaaantasy!

    Now you are just being silly: I demonstrated the advantage of “jaunting” over space ships, and your response was irrelevant to my point.

    Also, what evidence is there that “jaunting” could ever be instantaneous? Even if nothing else about “jaunting” is pure faaantasy, sure seems like that would be!

    Which adds to my earlier argument, of course. Where we see the Moon is where it WAS about 1.3 seconds ago. If you could “jaunt” at the speed of light, it would take you another 1.3 seconds to get to where the moon WAS. And in 2.6 seconds, the moon in its orbit has moved about 2.6 miles. So, give or take, you would arrive either in space 2.6 miles “above” the moon’s surface, or buried 2.6 miles beneath it. Either way, it’s a “bad trip.” (Especially if you still had your Earth-surface velocity!)

    Are you just trolling us? If so, stop. It’s annoying and foolish.

28. Coolidge
    kedavis

    @kedavis

    5:29 PM EDT ⋅ Jul 21, 2022

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Django (View Comment):

    I am Jack’s Mexican identity (View Comment):

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    I am Jack’s Mexican identity (View Comment):
    “The Ringworld is unstable!!”

    In the first edition, the Earth turns in the wrong direction. An embarrassing mistake for a hard sf writer to make.

    My quote referred to a bunch of MIT engineering students who confronted Niven at one of the early WorldCons (presumably in the Boston area).

    They’d done the math and figured out that the Ringworld was going to lose orbit and collapse into its sun.

    That’s why he added the thrusters in Ringworld Engineers and kept them for later books.

    But that doesn’t degrade my enjoyment of the first book one single bit.

    As Miffed said above, “suspension of disbelief”.

    Niven had the benefit that just because the first (mostly-)human visitors to the Ringworld didn’t see the thrusters, doesn’t mean they weren’t there all along.

    As I recall, the thing about mountains and “spill-pipes” etc wasn’t in the first book either.

    Or maybe that was, but just not the thrusters.

    None of the three were in the first book. But even with spill pipes I don’t believe in the Ringworld: It would require a Brobdingnagian army of Protectors merely to constantly rebuild the constantly eroding landscape. It was a fun concept, but I didn’t put that much stock in it as a believable working world. In some ways the first <i>Protector</i> novel was the most satisfying, because it left many questions unanswered rather than offering dubious answers.

    Hmm well remember, as it turned out (one could argue it was retcon but there were so many unanswered questions in the first book, providing answers isn’t necessarily the same as retcon) the Ringworld had a much larger population at the start, including Protectors etc, but the Puppeteers saw it all as a threat and basically killed them off via their anti-superconductor virus etc. which also disabled much of the technology that had been originally in place.

29. Coolidge
    kedavis

    @kedavis

    5:33 PM EDT ⋅ Jul 21, 2022

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    But what big advantage is there to “space jaunting” if you have to have been there first already by regular means?

    Space travel is expensive, time-consuming, and dangerous. “Jaunting” costs nothing and is instantaneous. But in fact the protagonist is able to “jaunt” to places he has never been before, which opens up travel to the stars.

    Faaaantasy!

    Now you are just being silly: I demonstrated the advantage of “jaunting” over space ships, and your response was irrelevant to my point.

    Also, what evidence is there that “jaunting” could ever be instantaneous? Even if nothing else about “jaunting” is pure faaantasy, sure seems like that would be!

    Which adds to my earlier argument, of course. Where we see the Moon is where it WAS about 1.3 seconds ago. If you could “jaunt” at the speed of light, it would take you another 1.3 seconds to get to where the moon WAS. And in 2.6 seconds, the moon in its orbit has moved about 2.6 miles. So, give or take, you would arrive either in space 2.6 miles “above” the moon’s surface, or buried 2.6 miles beneath it. Either way, it’s a “bad trip.” (Especially if you still had your Earth-surface velocity!)

    Are you just trolling us? If so, stop. It’s annoying and foolish.

    My argument might be that those who think garbage like “jaunting” is just “suspension of disbelief” are the ones trolling.

30. Member
    Paul Stinchfield

    @PaulStinchfield

    

    5:36 PM EDT ⋅ Jul 21, 2022

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    But what big advantage is there to “space jaunting” if you have to have been there first already by regular means?

    Space travel is expensive, time-consuming, and dangerous. “Jaunting” costs nothing and is instantaneous. But in fact the protagonist is able to “jaunt” to places he has never been before, which opens up travel to the stars.

    Faaaantasy!

    Now you are just being silly: I demonstrated the advantage of “jaunting” over space ships, and your response was irrelevant to my point.

    Also, what evidence is there that “jaunting” could ever be instantaneous? Even if nothing else about “jaunting” is pure faaantasy, sure seems like that would be!

    Which adds to my earlier argument, of course. Where we see the Moon is where it WAS about 1.3 seconds ago. If you could “jaunt” at the speed of light, it would take you another 1.3 seconds to get to where the moon WAS. And in 2.6 seconds, the moon in its orbit has moved about 2.6 miles. So, give or take, you would arrive either in space 2.6 miles “above” the moon’s surface, or buried 2.6 miles beneath it. Either way, it’s a “bad trip.” (Especially if you still had your Earth-surface velocity!)

    Are you just trolling us? If so, stop. It’s annoying and foolish.

    My argument might be that those who think garbage like “jaunting” is just “suspension of disbelief” are the ones trolling.

    It’s fantasy. Or science fantasy. Your demand that it all make perfect scientific sense is about as reasonable as requiring that a symphony be blue or a painting be in the chromatic scale. If you don’t like fantasy, fine. But don’t demand something that is not part of that genre.