Our Cowardly Handling of Ukraine Could Come Back to Bite Us

 

If America has learned anything from foreign entanglements over the past century, surely it is this: enemy conflicts must be engaged only if our vital interests are at stake. A war worth fighting must have clear objectives and a path to victory.

Clearly in WWII, all options save winning were unthinkable. We did win and the modern classical liberal order was created.

We had no such resolve in Vietnam. Worried about riling China and with growing domestic programs to fund, we fought not to win but for containment and so lost to a determined foe. America was humiliated, forfeiting immense blood and treasure as well as our national self-confidence.

Meanwhile, the Cold War spanned 45 fretful years during which the world became more dangerous. Neither side could afford to fall behind in the nuclear arms race when Mutually Assured Destruction was our defense against annihilation.

Ronald Reagan’s idea of actually defeating the Evil Empire turned the tide. Massive arms superiority and strategic defense weaponry convinced the Soviets that future efforts were futile.

The Middle East wars were fought without particular strategic goals and no endgame. We seem to believe we could mitigate Islamist terrorism through nation-building and intervention in centuries-old intertribal conflicts. We finally beat a disgraceful retreat with little to show for our losses.

Yet these lessons of history seem lost on our current administration’s response in Ukraine. We don’t want our proxy, Ukraine, to lose but we’re not committed to winning either.

The heroic Ukrainians have fought to a virtual standoff. Yet, as a result of our indecisiveness, the outcome remains in doubt.

The seminal question was: why get involved at all? Is the Russian aggression basically a regional dustup, like our Middle East debacle? Or does a hegemonically ambitious autocrat represent an existential threat, analogous to the prelude to WW II?

Most Americans seem to realize this conflict has implications beyond the ancient Russian/Ukrainian grudges. If Russia successfully breaches Ukrainian sovereignty, it will be the end of the international rules based order that has sustained general peace and prosperity since WWII. Moreover, if nuclear weapons or their threat are decisive, it will embolden rogue states everywhere, including China and Iran.

President Zelensky has pleaded many times for faster delivery of air defenses and anti-missile systems. Yet our aid to Ukraine has been halting and inadequate. Not until late April did the Biden administration announce it would ship 90 desperately needed howitzers.

When the US finally decided to provide Ukraine with MLR (multiple launch rocket) systems, to defend against Russia’s unremitting air attacks,

only MLRs with a 70 km range, not the 300 km range necessary to reach Russian targets, were provided.

Too little, too late. Ukraine’s foreign minister lamented that if Ukraine had received more weapons earlier the situation today would be “much different… much better.”

Meanwhile, the unimaginable human toll, the death and destruction of Ukraine, continues to mount. Last month, the UN development agency announce that if the war continues, an astounding 90% of Ukrainians would be at or below poverty levels.

According to the UN refugee agency, 13 million people have been displaced, which has serious political and military consequences. When Ukrainians are scattered, it makes unity more difficult and Russian control easier. A hollowed-out Ukraine also enables Russia to take more Ukrainian territory at war’s end.

US hesitation to provide more robust help to Ukraine is based on the fear of escalation and possible nuclear war with Russia. Some have urged Ukraine into an armistice that involves territorial concessions.

But that wouldn’t stop the bear. Instead, it would incentivize further military incursions. Over-caution could actually increase the possibility of escalation.

Biden and NATO have repeatedly ruled out direct military involvement and nuclear deployment without getting any concessions in return. Our weakness sends a message to Russia and other aggressors that threatening nuclear weapons works to soften western resistance.

The free world must decide what it stands for and how to meet this moment. If we don’t thwart Russian ambitions now, it will likely get more dangerous in the future. Ukraine, for their survival and ours, deserves protection now.

Published in Foreign Policy, Military
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  1. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic … (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic … (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic … (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    There will be a lot less internal Ukrainian corruption when the Russians are booted out for good.

    Based on . . . ??

    Based on the Russian/Ukrainian corruption that was eliminated when Yanukovich was booted in 2013-2014, and on my meager attempts at trying to figure out the loyalties and affiliations of some of the other corrupt actors. Carl Bildt of Sweden doesn’t go so far as to say all the corruption is Russian corruption, but he points out that a lot of the Ukrainian corruption in the gas industry went away when Yanukovich fled to Russia.

    I’m not buying that. The corruption just switched to different people. 2014 was when Hunter Biden got his phony baloney job at Burisma, for example.

    That was some of the Russia corruption, as far as I can tell. It would be good to have more details, though. But we’ll never have an investigation, because the U.S. media always protect the Bidens, and a large segment of what should be Biden’s opposition is busy inhaling Russian propaganda, unfiltered, which blames Russian propaganda on Ukraine just as Democrats blame their own abuses of power on Trump.

    How did you arrive at the conclusion that corruption in Ukraine is the Russians’ fault?

    The details of the Yanukovich affair are very unlikely to be the only instance.  

    • #61
  2. Hang On 🚫 Banned
    Hang On
    @HangOn

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    Hang On (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    Hang On (View Comment):

    The Ukrainians were shelling and killing civilians in Donbass since 2014.

    I don’t buy that. I’ve heard it from Zafar and a few others but when I checked into the facts, it was more like they were defending themselves against a Russian invasion. It was either Ukrainian rebels or Russians in Donbass, that shot down a Malaysian jetliner killing all 298 aboard in 2014.

    There are videos of it. Patrick Lancaster has been publishing them since 2014 when he moved there.

    Then how come you haven’t posted them?

     

    I have posted about Patrick Lancaster and his videos.

    • #62
  3. Hang On 🚫 Banned
    Hang On
    @HangOn

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Hang On (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    How did Biden provoke this war? The thoughts on this are becoming increasingly bizarre.

     

    By constantly assuring the Ukrainians he had their back, maneuvering them into a position of intransigence, and refusing to consider the Minsk Accords. The Ukrainians were shelling and killing vivilians in Donbass since 2014.

    You may have some wrong information. Obama and Biden were trying to push Ukraine into the Minsk accords ever since the Russians started the invasion and killing in Donbass in 2014. The Minsk accords would have meant the eventual loss of all Ukrainian sovereignty, and Ukraine was wise to resist.

    Victoria Nuland and Joe Biden were dead set against the Minsk accords and steered US policy against it. After all, their gravy train would end.

    • #63
  4. DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic Oaf 🚫 Banned
    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic Oaf
    @DrewInWisconsin

    The Reticulator (View Comment):
    I haven’t seen any evidence that Biden or anyone in the U.S. was egging Ukraine to join NATO, other than the usual Russian propaganda to that effect.

    Cat Hands GIFs | Tenor

    • #64
  5. Hang On 🚫 Banned
    Hang On
    @HangOn

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic … (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    There will be a lot less internal Ukrainian corruption when the Russians are booted out for good.

    Based on . . . ??

     

    Based on the Russian/Ukrainian corruption that was eliminated when Yanukovich was booted in 2013-2014, and on my meager attempts at trying to figure out the loyalties and affiliations of some of the other corrupt actors. Carl Bildt of Sweden doesn’t go so far as to say all the corruption is Russian corruption, but he points out that a lot of the Ukrainian corruption in the gas industry went away when Yanukovich fled to Russia.

    So when did Hunter Biden go on the board of Burisma?  

    • #65
  6. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Hang On (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Hang On (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    How did Biden provoke this war? The thoughts on this are becoming increasingly bizarre.

     

    By constantly assuring the Ukrainians he had their back, maneuvering them into a position of intransigence, and refusing to consider the Minsk Accords. The Ukrainians were shelling and killing vivilians in Donbass since 2014.

    You may have some wrong information. Obama and Biden were trying to push Ukraine into the Minsk accords ever since the Russians started the invasion and killing in Donbass in 2014. The Minsk accords would have meant the eventual loss of all Ukrainian sovereignty, and Ukraine was wise to resist.

    Victoria Nuland and Joe Biden were dead set against the Minsk accords and steered US policy against it. After all, their gravy train would end.

    In that case there is some contradictory information out there that needs to be reconciled. 

    • #66
  7. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Victoria Nuland and Joe Biden were dead set against the Minsk accords and steered US policy against it. After all, their gravy train would end.

    In that case there is some contradictory information out there that needs to be reconciled.

    From TASS, on October 13 2021 (during the period when Biden was trying to get people used the idea that Russia would invade).

    Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs Victoria Nuland said that the negotiations on Ukraine and Minsk Agreements with Russian Presidential Administration Deputy Chairman Dmitry Kozak were productive….

    Earlier, Kozak said after his meeting with Nuland that Russia and the US agreed to continue consultation on settlement in Ukraine, with consideration of approaches on the special status of Donbass. According to Kozak, the sides had a substantive and constructive dialogue regarding the settlement in Eastern Ukraine. The sides confirmed that the Minsk Agreements remain the only basis for the settlement.

    Doesn’t sound very much like Russia was claiming that Biden was steering U.S. policy away from the Minsk Accords.

    Late edit: Here’s the URL.

    • #67
  8. Steven Seward Member
    Steven Seward
    @StevenSeward

    Unsk (View Comment):

    The Reticulator:

    “These have seldom been clearer. Get Russia out of Ukraine so that Ukraine can continue independent. The path is through arming and supporting Ukraine. “

    Riiiight! Exactly how do you propose to “Get Russia out of Ukraine”? What do you want a nuclear war? When are you guys going to start dealing in reality? This war is for all purposes lost! Are you going to attack Russian Territory? Further escalation will only cost us more lives and treasure by the bucket load. You guys fail to realize that the Corporatist/Communist Deep State alliance has severely weakened our military, political and economic wherewithal to the point where we can not any longer just push people around without any plan.

    The Russian fans have been saying Ukraine has been losing for the entire 4+ months of this war.  In fact they predicted a surrender within the first week.  And yet here we are more than 4 months later, after Russia lost 1/3 of its invading force within the first two months, was repelled easily from their massive attack on Kyiv, and are now digging in to try and hold the little piece of Ukraine that they were able to conquer.  That doesn’t look much like  a victory to me.

    The second half of your paragraph seems to infer the “we” (the Americans) are the ones fighting this war.  You worry that our military is not up to the task.  I think you are getting a little ahead of the situation here.

    • #68
  9. Steven Seward Member
    Steven Seward
    @StevenSeward

    Unsk (View Comment):

    And yes, Biden from almost day one provoked Russia into this war by repeatedly egging Ukraine on to join NATO,

    Can you produce a single quote or directive from Biden in which he egged on Ukraine to join NATO?

    plus his and the corrupt State Department”s assorted other previous shenanigans like installing Bio-Weapons labs close to the Russian border did not build any trust in the behavior of this Administration in the Russians.

    The claim of U.S. Bio weapons labs in Ukraine is complete nonsense made up on the Internet.  Ukraine has normal infectious disease labs like every other country of the world, like the one my wife works in.

    https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/feb/25/tweets/there-are-no-us-run-biolabs-ukraine-contrary-socia/

    https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/jun/15/blog-posting/pentagon-didnt-admit-there-are-46-us-funded-biolab/

    https://factcheck.bg/en/there-is-no-evidence-that-ukraine-is-developing-biological-weapons-in-pentagon-funded-labs/

    By contrast, the Soviet Union ran the world’s largest and most extensive biological weapons program in history.  The U.S. State Department insists that Russia today is still operating its biological weapons program.  It is confirmed that Russia also operates a chemical weapons program, as some of the chemical agents used to poison Putin enemies have been identified as sophisticated developed chemical weapons.

    • #69
  10. Steven Seward Member
    Steven Seward
    @StevenSeward

    Hang On (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    Hang On (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    Hang On (View Comment):

    The Ukrainians were shelling and killing civilians in Donbass since 2014.

    I don’t buy that. I’ve heard it from Zafar and a few others but when I checked into the facts, it was more like they were defending themselves against a Russian invasion. It was either Ukrainian rebels or Russians in Donbass, that shot down a Malaysian jetliner killing all 298 aboard in 2014.

    There are videos of it. Patrick Lancaster has been publishing them since 2014 when he moved there.

    Then how come you haven’t posted them?

     

    I have posted about Patrick Lancaster and his videos.

    But clearly you are not confident enough to post them here.

    • #70
  11. DonG (CAGW is a Hoax) Coolidge
    DonG (CAGW is a Hoax)
    @DonG

    The Reticulator (View Comment):
    The country whose internationally-recognized borders were established at the time of the fall of the Soviet Union. 

    Does that mean we have to put Yugoslavia back together? 

    • #71
  12. DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic Oaf 🚫 Banned
    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic Oaf
    @DrewInWisconsin

    Steven Seward (View Comment):
    The claim of U.S. Bio weapons labs in Ukraine is complete nonsense made up on the Internet.

    Uh, so in March when Victoria Nuland confirmed the existence of those biolabs, . . . she was making it up?

    I dunno, if quoting government-aligned “fact-checkers” will convince me of anything.

    • #72
  13. MarciN Member
    MarciN
    @MarciN

    DonG (CAGW is a Hoax) (View Comment):

    MarciN (View Comment):
    Everything we see today is a direct result of the Budapest Memorandum that Clinton convinced the Ukrainians to sign. Someone back then or any time since should have insisted that agreement be submitted to the Senate as a formal treaty. If it didn’t pass, the Ukrainians would have understood that they needed to protect themselves.

    The Budapest memo was not a mutual defense agreement like NATO. It was a non-aggression agreement. The US agreed to not disrupt the territory of Ukraine and we mostly kept to that. Having a full treaty would not help Ukraine.

    This is the heart of the agreement [emphasis mine]:

    2. The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, and that none of their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine except in self-defense or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations.

    3. The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act, to refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind.

    4. The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine, as a non-nuclear-weapon State Party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used.

     

    This agreement was signed three years after Ukraine’s independence was recognized by the United Nations and Europe and the United States. 

    I have already said that Clinton is the person who bears all the responsibility for the war in Ukraine. He should have submitted this as a formal treaty to the Senate. If the Senate then decided that we had no interest in what became Ukraine, the Ukrainians could have had their nukes back. 

    Why don’t we just do that now. Right this wrong. 

    Let Putin take his concerns to International Court of Justice in the Hague. That’s what civilized countries do today. 

    Putin’s government is a member of that court. They know where it is and what it is for: to settle conflicts between sovereign nations. 

     

    • #73
  14. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    DonG (CAGW is a Hoax) (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):
    The country whose internationally-recognized borders were established at the time of the fall of the Soviet Union.

    Does that mean we have to put Yugoslavia back together?

    Can’t think of any reason why it would mean that. 

    • #74
  15. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic … (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):
    The claim of U.S. Bio weapons labs in Ukraine is complete nonsense made up on the Internet.

    Uh, so in March when Victoria Nuland confirmed the existence of those biolabs, . . . she was making it up?

    I dunno, if quoting government-aligned “fact-checkers” will convince me of anything.

    Read the rest of what Mr Seward wrote. 

    • #75
  16. DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic Oaf 🚫 Banned
    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic Oaf
    @DrewInWisconsin

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic … (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):
    The claim of U.S. Bio weapons labs in Ukraine is complete nonsense made up on the Internet.

    Uh, so in March when Victoria Nuland confirmed the existence of those biolabs, . . . she was making it up?

    I dunno, if quoting government-aligned “fact-checkers” will convince me of anything.

    Read the rest of what Mr Seward wrote.

    I did. That’s why I said that about the state-run media’s fact-checkers. (Actually, run by our intelligence agencies.)

    • #76
  17. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    The Reticulator (View Comment):
    The claim of U.S. Bio weapons labs in Ukraine is complete nonsense made up on the Internet.  Ukraine has normal infectious disease labs like every other country of the world, like the one my wife works in.

    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic … (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic … (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):
    The claim of U.S. Bio weapons labs in Ukraine is complete nonsense made up on the Internet.

    Uh, so in March when Victoria Nuland confirmed the existence of those biolabs, . . . she was making it up?

    I dunno, if quoting government-aligned “fact-checkers” will convince me of anything.

    Read the rest of what Mr Seward wrote.

    I did. That’s why I said that about the state-run media’s fact-checkers. (Actually, run by our intelligence agencies.)

    But you trust Victoria Nuland when she confirmed the existence of biolabs.  

    • #77
  18. DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic Oaf 🚫 Banned
    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic Oaf
    @DrewInWisconsin

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):
    The claim of U.S. Bio weapons labs in Ukraine is complete nonsense made up on the Internet. Ukraine has normal infectious disease labs like every other country of the world, like the one my wife works in.

    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic … (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic … (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):
    The claim of U.S. Bio weapons labs in Ukraine is complete nonsense made up on the Internet.

    Uh, so in March when Victoria Nuland confirmed the existence of those biolabs, . . . she was making it up?

    I dunno, if quoting government-aligned “fact-checkers” will convince me of anything.

    Read the rest of what Mr Seward wrote.

    I did. That’s why I said that about the state-run media’s fact-checkers. (Actually, run by our intelligence agencies.)

    But you trust Victoria Nuland when she confirmed the existence of biolabs.

    Pretty fine situation we find ourselves in.

    What’s more likely? The government lies that there aren’t U.S. biolabs in Ukraine, or the government lies that there are?

    • #78
  19. Steven Seward Member
    Steven Seward
    @StevenSeward

    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic … (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):
    The claim of U.S. Bio weapons labs in Ukraine is complete nonsense made up on the Internet.

    Uh, so in March when Victoria Nuland confirmed the existence of those biolabs, . . . she was making it up?

    I dunno, if quoting government-aligned “fact-checkers” will convince me of anything.

    You will have to show me the confirmation of bio weapons labs by Victoria Nuland.

    • #79
  20. Steven Seward Member
    Steven Seward
    @StevenSeward

    MarciN (View Comment):

    DonG (CAGW is a Hoax) (View Comment):

    MarciN (View Comment):
    Everything we see today is a direct result of the Budapest Memorandum that Clinton convinced the Ukrainians to sign. Someone back then or any time since should have insisted that agreement be submitted to the Senate as a formal treaty. If it didn’t pass, the Ukrainians would have understood that they needed to protect themselves.

    The Budapest memo was not a mutual defense agreement like NATO. It was a non-aggression agreement. The US agreed to not disrupt the territory of Ukraine and we mostly kept to that. Having a full treaty would not help Ukraine.

    This is the heart of the agreement [emphasis mine]:

    2. The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, and that none of their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine except in self-defense or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations.

    3. The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act, to refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind.

    4. The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine, as a non-nuclear-weapon State Party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used.

     

    This agreement was signed three years after Ukraine’s independence was recognized by the United Nations and Europe and the United States.

    I have already said that Clinton is the person who bears all the responsibility for the war in Ukraine. He should have submitted this as a formal treaty to the Senate. If the Senate then decided that we had no interest in what became Ukraine, the Ukrainians could have had their nukes back.

    Why don’t we just do that now. Right this wrong.

    Let Putin take his concerns to International Court of Justice in the Hague. That’s what civilized countries do today.

    Putin’s government is a member of that court. They know where it is and what it is for: to settle conflicts between sovereign nations.

    The language of that Budapest Memo is pretty clear.  Russia plainly violated it.

     

    • #80
  21. Steven Seward Member
    Steven Seward
    @StevenSeward

    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic … (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic … (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):
    The claim of U.S. Bio weapons labs in Ukraine is complete nonsense made up on the Internet.

    Uh, so in March when Victoria Nuland confirmed the existence of those biolabs, . . . she was making it up?

    I dunno, if quoting government-aligned “fact-checkers” will convince me of anything.

    Read the rest of what Mr Seward wrote.

    I did. That’s why I said that about the state-run media’s fact-checkers. (Actually, run by our intelligence agencies.)

    It is incumbent on you to show evidence of bio weapons labs in Ukraine, if you are going to assert that they exist.  You can ignore the fact checkers if you can provide something tangible.

    • #81
  22. Steven Seward Member
    Steven Seward
    @StevenSeward

    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic … (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):
    The claim of U.S. Bio weapons labs in Ukraine is complete nonsense made up on the Internet. Ukraine has normal infectious disease labs like every other country of the world, like the one my wife works in.

    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic … (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic … (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):
    The claim of U.S. Bio weapons labs in Ukraine is complete nonsense made up on the Internet.

    Uh, so in March when Victoria Nuland confirmed the existence of those biolabs, . . . she was making it up?

    I dunno, if quoting government-aligned “fact-checkers” will convince me of anything.

    Read the rest of what Mr Seward wrote.

    I did. That’s why I said that about the state-run media’s fact-checkers. (Actually, run by our intelligence agencies.)

    But you trust Victoria Nuland when she confirmed the existence of biolabs.

    Pretty fine situation we find ourselves in.

    What’s more likely? The government lies that there aren’t U.S. biolabs in Ukraine, or the government lies that there are?

    Again, you can forget the government and the fact checkers if you can provide some believable evidence.  You can’t just make stuff up or believe anything that you hear.

    • #82
  23. DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic Oaf 🚫 Banned
    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic Oaf
    @DrewInWisconsin

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic … (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):
    The claim of U.S. Bio weapons labs in Ukraine is complete nonsense made up on the Internet.

    Uh, so in March when Victoria Nuland confirmed the existence of those biolabs, . . . she was making it up?

    I dunno, if quoting government-aligned “fact-checkers” will convince me of anything.

    You will have to show me the confirmation of bio weapons labs by Victoria Nuland.

    All it takes is a little web search.

    Here’s the critical exchange.

    https://www.c-span.org/video/?c5005237/user-clip-marco-rubio-qeustions-victoria-nuland-backed-biolabs-ukraine

     

     

    • #83
  24. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic … (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):
    The claim of U.S. Bio weapons labs in Ukraine is complete nonsense made up on the Internet. Ukraine has normal infectious disease labs like every other country of the world, like the one my wife works in.

    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic … (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic … (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):
    The claim of U.S. Bio weapons labs in Ukraine is complete nonsense made up on the Internet.

    Uh, so in March when Victoria Nuland confirmed the existence of those biolabs, . . . she was making it up?

    I dunno, if quoting government-aligned “fact-checkers” will convince me of anything.

    Read the rest of what Mr Seward wrote.

    I did. That’s why I said that about the state-run media’s fact-checkers. (Actually, run by our intelligence agencies.)

    But you trust Victoria Nuland when she confirmed the existence of biolabs.

    Pretty fine situation we find ourselves in.

    What’s more likely? The government lies that there aren’t U.S. biolabs in Ukraine, or the government lies that there are?

    There’s no question that there are U.S. funded biolabs in Ukraine. There is no evidence that there are U.S. biolabs making weapons. 

    • #84
  25. DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic Oaf 🚫 Banned
    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic Oaf
    @DrewInWisconsin

    I detect word games.

     

    • #85
  26. Steven Seward Member
    Steven Seward
    @StevenSeward

    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic … (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic … (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):
    The claim of U.S. Bio weapons labs in Ukraine is complete nonsense made up on the Internet.

    Uh, so in March when Victoria Nuland confirmed the existence of those biolabs, . . . she was making it up?

    I dunno, if quoting government-aligned “fact-checkers” will convince me of anything.

    You will have to show me the confirmation of bio weapons labs by Victoria Nuland.

    All it takes is a little web search.

    Here’s the critical exchange.

    https://www.c-span.org/video/?c5005237/user-clip-marco-rubio-qeustions-victoria-nuland-backed-biolabs-ukraine

    Thank you for pulling this up.  Here is your transcript:

    SEN. MARCO RUBIO: Does Ukraine have chemical or biological weapons?

    VICTORIA NULAND: Ukraine has biological research facilities which, in fact, we’re now quite concerned Russian troops, Russian forces may be seeking to gain control of, so we are working with the Ukrainians on how we can prevent any of those research materials from falling into the hands of Russian forces should they approach.

    MARCO RUBIO: I’m sure you’re aware that the Russian propaganda groups are already putting out there all kinds of information about how they have uncovered a plot by the Ukrainians to unleash biological weapons in the country, and with NATO’s coordination.

    If there is a biological or chemical weapon incident or attack inside Ukraine, is there any doubt in your mind that 100% it would be the Russians behind it?

    VICTORIA NULAND: There is no doubt in my mind, senator. And in fact, it is a classic Russian technique to blame the other guy for what they are planning to do themselves.

     

    So she said “biological research facilities.”  Those are not bio weapons facilities.  You think Reticulator is playing word games but it is in fact you who is playing the games.  Nearly every country in the world has biological research facilities.  If Marco Rubio  thought for one minute that she was referencing “bio weapons facilities,” don’t you think he would have started screaming “what the hell is going on here?”  Instead, he mentions the Russian claim that Ukraine has a bio weapons program and he dismisses it, to which Victoria Nuland agrees!  (which totally contradicts your premise) She emphasizes that if bio weapons are used, then they would undoubtedly come from Russia.

    I’m sure you did not come up with this on your own, but probably heard some pundit claiming it.  But this is an incredibly clear case of someone “taking a quote out of context” and on top of that “distorting the language of the quote taken out of context.” You have to agree that what she said has no relation to what pundits are ascribing to her.  This is just as bad or even worse than “Trump said there were good people on both sides.”

    I don’t even need fact checkers to interpret this for me.

    • #86
  27. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic … (View Comment):

    I detect word games.

    It is a sleazy thing to slyly lead people to believe that biolabs are weapons biolabs, isn’t it?  But the Russians are good at sleazy propaganda.

    • #87
  28. DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic Oaf 🚫 Banned
    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic Oaf
    @DrewInWisconsin

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic … (View Comment):

    I detect word games.

    It is a sleazy thing to slyly lead people to believe that biolabs are weapons biolabs, isn’t it? But the Russians are good at sleazy propaganda.

    So are our intelligence agencies.

    But if you want to believe every word that ushers forth from the Biden administration, that’s your luxury.

    • #88
  29. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic … (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic … (View Comment):

    I detect word games.

    It is a sleazy thing to slyly lead people to believe that biolabs are weapons biolabs, isn’t it? But the Russians are good at sleazy propaganda.

    So are our intelligence agencies.

    But if you want to believe every word that ushers forth from the Biden administration, that’s your luxury.

    Likewise, if you want to believe every word that ushers forth from the Biden or Putin administrations, that is your luxury. 

    • #89
  30. DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic Oaf 🚫 Banned
    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic Oaf
    @DrewInWisconsin

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic … (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Unapologetic … (View Comment):

    I detect word games.

    It is a sleazy thing to slyly lead people to believe that biolabs are weapons biolabs, isn’t it? But the Russians are good at sleazy propaganda.

    So are our intelligence agencies.

    But if you want to believe every word that ushers forth from the Biden administration, that’s your luxury.

    Likewise, if you want to believe every word that ushers forth from the Biden or Putin administrations, that is your luxury.

    WTF? Whole lotta Gell-Mann amnesia in effect.

    • #90
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