The Unending Hatred for Russians

 

I want Putin to lose. I want him to learn that if a country wants freedom, he cannot take it away. I’m cheering for Ukraine. But the insane escalation of anti-Russian measures is disturbing.

Banking sanctions are one thing, but some of the petty elements are just insane.  People who live in Russia cannot receive money via Patreon or other donation services.  One guy I support was developing a video game trading market, and got completely cut off.  He can’t even use online development tools.  Speaking of games, several games have cut off Russians from the ability to buy any items in the game using actual money  (For a lot of free games, that’s the game company’s revenue stream).

Some of the attacks on Russians are just bizarre, like going after vodkas made in Latvia (Stoli) and the US (Smirnoff). We even have places refusing to allow Tchaikovsky music to be played. Does anyone think Putin gives a damn about these ridiculous measures? The point of sanctions and such is get Russia to leave the Ukrainians and other former satellites alone.

Putin probably appreciates when crazy people do things like argue for deporting Russians and having Russian citizens lose their jobs. There’s nothing like insane criticism to get people to sympathize with a side. I remember reading the Philadelphia Trumpet‘s anti-Catholic propaganda and thinking that it made the Roman Church sound awesome.  They had a guy dressed as a cardinal drawing a sword, and the issue was called Crusade. They wanted to blame Catholics for Islamic terrorism, I wanted to yell Deus Vult!


One last note: I have the sneaking suspicion everyone enacting these anti-Putin measures would really like to use them on all of us here. Maximum Trudeau, in other words. Doesn’t change the Ukraine situation, but it does make me worried.

Published in Foreign Policy
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  1. Henry Castaigne Member
    Henry Castaigne
    @HenryCastaigne

    Franco (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Ope! (View Comment):

    Skyler (View Comment):
    A people are responsible for those they allow to rule them.

    I give a pass to American Citizens who were not allowed to chose the current administration, but had it foisted upon them through a mix of outright vote fraud and illegal voting mechanism used by Democrats. (Such as in my own state, where we continue to uncover fraudulently-cast votes.)

    Joe Biden is not our legitimate president. Therefore I/we are not responsible for the evils his administration is doing.

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):
    Would you agree that this is genocide?

    Genocide? No. Genocide has a very specific definition.

    Would you agree that this is a war crime?

    Let’s look at this. A lawyer who should understand the meaning of terms, cites “genocide” with zero evidence. Genocide is a very strong term and you have to kill a lot of people – specific people of some tribe or race, systematically.

    He throws around this charge, cheapening the term – which to me is outrageous – I really don’t know what the punishment should be for this kind of loose rhetoric (maybe refusal of services from Visa?) and then negotiates downwards to “war crimes”. Either this man doesn’t understand the meaning of “war crimes” or he is just another lawyer throwing around word to accomplish a result for his client.

    Why are you so mean? You can disagree with the guy without being so mean. 

    • #91
  2. Vince Guerra Inactive
    Vince Guerra
    @VinceGuerra

    MiMac (View Comment):

    Vince Guerra (View Comment):

    James Lileks (View Comment):
    I feel worse for the people being shelled.

    Do you? Which ones?

    The ones who didn’t invade another country

    More specific please. Any idea how many people are currently being shelled across the globe? 

    • #92
  3. Miffed White Male Member
    Miffed White Male
    @MiffedWhiteMale

    Franco (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Ope! (View Comment):

    Skyler (View Comment):
    A people are responsible for those they allow to rule them.

    I give a pass to American Citizens who were not allowed to chose the current administration, but had it foisted upon them through a mix of outright vote fraud and illegal voting mechanism used by Democrats. (Such as in my own state, where we continue to uncover fraudulently-cast votes.)

    Joe Biden is not our legitimate president. Therefore I/we are not responsible for the evils his administration is doing.

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):
    Would you agree that this is genocide?

    Genocide? No. Genocide has a very specific definition.

    Would you agree that this is a war crime?

    Let’s look at this. A lawyer who should understand the meaning of terms, cites “genocide” with zero evidence. Genocide is a very strong term and you have to kill a lot of people – specific people of some tribe or race, systematically.

    He throws around this charge, cheapening the term – which to me is outrageous – I really don’t know what the punishment should be for this kind of loose rhetoric (maybe refusal of services from Visa?) and then negotiates downwards to “war crimes”. Either this man doesn’t understand the meaning of “war crimes” or he is just another lawyer throwing around words to accomplish a result for his client.

    He just means “bad”.

     

    • #93
  4. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Annefy (View Comment):

    My brother and I were going round and round on this earlier this week. Not necessarily in disagreement; just trying to get some working definitions.

    What I’m getting at is “that” (racism, bigotry, discrimination, whatever we agree to call it) is wrong. Period. Even though it is part of our human nature.

    What we’ve been doing is defining as wrong specific actions against specific groups.

    Per my example, Japanese internment was wrong. Ooooookay. But I’ve spent over a year with some people (and some of those people had power) being perfectly okay with the internment of the ill, the might be ill, the not ill but unvaccinated.

    Yes. What bothers me is the loose use of terms (and functionally, fairly pejorative terms) like race, other and tribal. Other and othering are really used in a pejorative way for alien and alienizing; similarly tribe and tribal are used in place of the clearer and more appropriate and less pejorative faction and factional; and race (in common usage) is a garbage term being used in place of ethnicity, culture or some genetic heritage or lineage. In fact, lineage is a classic non-“racial” use of the term race.

    I’m all for using terms in their proper context, like the word “racism.” It shouldn’t be used willy-nilly to describe any form of bigotry, no matter if it involves race or not. Lefties too often distort the meanings of words until they become meaningless. I resist falling in line with leftist language-twisting.

    I agree.  In my general usage I use the term race to mean a clan.  As for genetically distinct and definable human races, I don’t know that it’s ever been adequately defined.

    • #94
  5. Steven Seward Member
    Steven Seward
    @StevenSeward

    Vince Guerra (View Comment):

    Phil Turmel (View Comment):

    Vince Guerra (View Comment):
    Sorry, Karina, you lose because you’re from a corrupt nation. Deal with it.

    Yes, that’s reality. People can change their government by revolution when peaceful means fail. When one’s government applies their tyranny internally, it is only the those people who suffer for their failure to change their government. When such a government crosses the border to tyrannize the neighbors, those neighbors have every right to blame the people of the country that invaded them. Yeah, Karina may be justifiably afraid to stand up to Putin’s government. But weigh that against the Ukrainians who have no real choice but to stand up against Putin’s government.

    History shows that no government can stand against the will of the people. Even in Russia.

    This is the fundamental truth to “just war” theory–civilians may not be soldiers, but they are part of any war. Whether they want to be or not. Changing one’s government when it behaves immorally is a moral obligation of every person. Peacefully if possible. Violently if necessary. Danger is no excuse. Excuses by civilians of an aggressor are exactly sufficient to make those civilians responsible for their own suffering in return.

    Sorry, Karina, you lose because you and your fellow citizens didn’t change your corrupt government. Doesn’t matter what your excuse it. Deal with it.

    The first part of your argument is fine, I agree with all of that.

    The second part is antithetical to American ideals. We support and empower the notion of liberty and justice for all, be they behind an iron or bamboo curtain or a burka. To deny the fruits of freedom to people in restricted nations, just because we don’t like their leadership flies in the face of our own ideals and makes a mockery of those who went to great lengths to beam Reagan’s broadcasts into the Soviet Union, or smuggle bibles into China, Iran, etc…

    I agree with your premise only in peacetime.  In an active war, a lot of niceties fly out the window.  The U.S. definitely did not adhere to these ideals of leaving civilians alone to enjoy the fruits of freedom when we bombed Japan and Germany in World War II.

     

    • #95
  6. Locke On Member
    Locke On
    @LockeOn

    Vince Guerra (View Comment):

    MiMac (View Comment):

    Vince Guerra (View Comment):

    James Lileks (View Comment):
    I feel worse for the people being shelled.

    Do you? Which ones?

    The ones who didn’t invade another country

    More specific please. Any idea how many people are currently being shelled across the globe?

    Perhaps you noticed the title of the post?  It might give a clue.

    • #96
  7. Gary Robbins Member
    Gary Robbins
    @GaryRobbins

    Franco (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Ope! (View Comment):

    Skyler (View Comment):
    A people are responsible for those they allow to rule them.

    I give a pass to American Citizens who were not allowed to chose the current administration, but had it foisted upon them through a mix of outright vote fraud and illegal voting mechanism used by Democrats. (Such as in my own state, where we continue to uncover fraudulently-cast votes.)

    Joe Biden is not our legitimate president. Therefore I/we are not responsible for the evils his administration is doing.

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):
    Would you agree that this is genocide?

    Genocide? No. Genocide has a very specific definition.

    Would you agree that this is a war crime?

    Let’s look at this. A lawyer who should understand the meaning of terms, cites “genocide” with zero evidence. Genocide is a very strong term and you have to kill a lot of people – specific people of some tribe or race, systematically.

    He throws around this charge, cheapening the term – which to me is outrageous – I really don’t know what the punishment should be for this kind of loose rhetoric (maybe refusal of services from Visa?) and then negotiates downwards to “war crimes”. Either this man doesn’t understand the meaning of “war crimes” or he is just another lawyer throwing around words to accomplish a result for his client.

    Thank you so much for your kind words and spirit of generosity.  

    • #97
  8. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    Annefy (View Comment):

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):
    Irish, Italians, Jews, poles, and Catholics are not actual races. But race has come to be at best a generic catch word ethnicity, color, creed or national origin.

    Irish, Italian and Poles are sub-groups of races. We can figure out someone’s race through genetics and race is helpful to Doctors so race is a real thing. If it wasn’t, Doctors wouldn’t care. Catholicism has nothing to do with race.

    I find this unhelpful. A worthy expenditure of our efforts would be to agree with a term that encompasses race, religion, heritage, culture … (I’ve probably missed a few). I think prejudice probably fits bets.

    The term you are looking for is “bigotry.” It includes not only racial bigotry, but all forms of dislike based on other factors. You can be bigoted based on people’s color of underwear. [edit] As Henry remarked, the word “prejudice” also works.

    Yes.  Fords are strong, dependable, durable, agile and fast.  Chevys suck.  Call me a bigot, I don’t care.

    • #98
  9. Steven Seward Member
    Steven Seward
    @StevenSeward

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Annefy (View Comment):

    My brother and I were going round and round on this earlier this week. Not necessarily in disagreement; just trying to get some working definitions.

    What I’m getting at is “that” (racism, bigotry, discrimination, whatever we agree to call it) is wrong. Period. Even though it is part of our human nature.

    What we’ve been doing is defining as wrong specific actions against specific groups.

    Per my example, Japanese internment was wrong. Ooooookay. But I’ve spent over a year with some people (and some of those people had power) being perfectly okay with the internment of the ill, the might be ill, the not ill but unvaccinated.

    Yes. What bothers me is the loose use of terms (and functionally, fairly pejorative terms) like race, other and tribal. Other and othering are really used in a pejorative way for alien and alienizing; similarly tribe and tribal are used in place of the clearer and more appropriate and less pejorative faction and factional; and race (in common usage) is a garbage term being used in place of ethnicity, culture or some genetic heritage or lineage. In fact, lineage is a classic non-“racial” use of the term race.

    I’m all for using terms in their proper context, like the word “racism.” It shouldn’t be used willy-nilly to describe any form of bigotry, no matter if it involves race or not. Lefties too often distort the meanings of words until they become meaningless. I resist falling in line with leftist language-twisting.

    I agree. In my general usage I use the term race to mean a clan. As for genetically distinct and definable human races, I don’t know that it’s ever been adequately defined.

    I guess you cannot define it with 100% certainty  but we know some pretty big differences between a negro and an Asian or an Eskimo, for instance.

    • #99
  10. Henry Castaigne Member
    Henry Castaigne
    @HenryCastaigne

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Annefy (View Comment):

    My brother and I were going round and round on this earlier this week. Not necessarily in disagreement; just trying to get some working definitions.

    What I’m getting at is “that” (racism, bigotry, discrimination, whatever we agree to call it) is wrong. Period. Even though it is part of our human nature.

    What we’ve been doing is defining as wrong specific actions against specific groups.

    Per my example, Japanese internment was wrong. Ooooookay. But I’ve spent over a year with some people (and some of those people had power) being perfectly okay with the internment of the ill, the might be ill, the not ill but unvaccinated.

    Yes. What bothers me is the loose use of terms (and functionally, fairly pejorative terms) like race, other and tribal. Other and othering are really used in a pejorative way for alien and alienizing; similarly tribe and tribal are used in place of the clearer and more appropriate and less pejorative faction and factional; and race (in common usage) is a garbage term being used in place of ethnicity, culture or some genetic heritage or lineage. In fact, lineage is a classic non-“racial” use of the term race.

    I’m all for using terms in their proper context, like the word “racism.” It shouldn’t be used willy-nilly to describe any form of bigotry, no matter if it involves race or not. Lefties too often distort the meanings of words until they become meaningless. I resist falling in line with leftist language-twisting.

    I agree. In my general usage I use the term race to mean a clan. As for genetically distinct and definable human races, I don’t know that it’s ever been adequately defined.

    Well you could read Nicholas D Wade’s a Troublesome Inheritance or Plomin’s book about DNA. I think they define it OK.

    • #100
  11. Steven Seward Member
    Steven Seward
    @StevenSeward

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    Annefy (View Comment):

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):
    Irish, Italians, Jews, poles, and Catholics are not actual races. But race has come to be at best a generic catch word ethnicity, color, creed or national origin.

    Irish, Italian and Poles are sub-groups of races. We can figure out someone’s race through genetics and race is helpful to Doctors so race is a real thing. If it wasn’t, Doctors wouldn’t care. Catholicism has nothing to do with race.

    I find this unhelpful. A worthy expenditure of our efforts would be to agree with a term that encompasses race, religion, heritage, culture … (I’ve probably missed a few). I think prejudice probably fits bets.

    The term you are looking for is “bigotry.” It includes not only racial bigotry, but all forms of dislike based on other factors. You can be bigoted based on people’s color of underwear. [edit] As Henry remarked, the word “prejudice” also works.

    Yes. Fords are strong, dependable, durable, agile and fast. Chevys suck. Call me a bigot, I don’t care.

    My wife swears by Toyota Avalons!  Me, I don’t care.  As long as it can haul a lot of stuff.

    • #101
  12. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Annefy (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Annefy (View Comment):

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):
    Irish, Italians, Jews, poles, and Catholics are not actual races. But race has come to be at best a generic catch word ethnicity, color, creed or national origin.

    Irish, Italian and Poles are sub-groups of races. We can figure out someone’s race through genetics and race is helpful to Doctors so race is a real thing. If it wasn’t, Doctors wouldn’t care. Catholicism has nothing to do with race.

    I find this unhelpful. A worthy expenditure of our efforts would be to agree with a term that encompasses race, religion, heritage, culture … (I’ve probably missed a few). I think prejudice probably fits bets.

    Bigotry is a much more benign and broadly understood word.

    I think it beats prejudiced. Regarding another word that’s more or less synonymous, I’ll never forget, as I’ve written here before, reading a sign outside a bar in Ocean City:

    No Harley Hats
    No Harley Patches
    No Harley Leathers
    No Harley Anything

    And a guy standing outside saying, But that’s discrimination.

    And the hostess said, That’s right. We’re discriminating here.

    Agreed. Agree that discrimination is not always bad. I am discriminating about many things

    :) Yes. And like race, discrimination can mean two different things to two different people in the same conversation.

    I discriminate against people who smell bad or who are convicted pedophiles. I discriminate against he lazy and towards the hardworking. I also discriminate against the small number of whites who are white supremacists as I discriminate against black supremacists.

    Um, that’s discrimination.  Discrimination bad.  However, you will find this wine will satisfy the most discriminating of palates.  Maybe not discrimination bad.

    (Chevys bad.)

    • #102
  13. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Annefy (View Comment):

    My brother and I were going round and round on this earlier this week. Not necessarily in disagreement; just trying to get some working definitions.

    What I’m getting at is “that” (racism, bigotry, discrimination, whatever we agree to call it) is wrong. Period. Even though it is part of our human nature.

    What we’ve been doing is defining as wrong specific actions against specific groups.

    Per my example, Japanese internment was wrong. Ooooookay. But I’ve spent over a year with some people (and some of those people had power) being perfectly okay with the internment of the ill, the might be ill, the not ill but unvaccinated.

    Yes. What bothers me is the loose use of terms (and functionally, fairly pejorative terms) like race, other and tribal. Other and othering are really used in a pejorative way for alien and alienizing; similarly tribe and tribal are used in place of the clearer and more appropriate and less pejorative faction and factional; and race (in common usage) is a garbage term being used in place of ethnicity, culture or some genetic heritage or lineage. In fact, lineage is a classic non-“racial” use of the term race.

    I’m all for using terms in their proper context, like the word “racism.” It shouldn’t be used willy-nilly to describe any form of bigotry, no matter if it involves race or not. Lefties too often distort the meanings of words until they become meaningless. I resist falling in line with leftist language-twisting.

    I agree. In my general usage I use the term race to mean a clan. As for genetically distinct and definable human races, I don’t know that it’s ever been adequately defined.

    I guess you cannot define it with 100% certainty but we know some pretty big differences between a negro and an Asian or an Eskimo, for instance.

    And when you walk around the world you rarely if ever see hard and fast borders between one race and another.  There is no boundary.  There is only: I can’t define it, but I know it when I see it, which is grossly superficial.

    Meanwhile “race” is used as a cudgel at times against those who are prejudiced against people with certain physical features (or cultures) or genealogy,  and at other times as a cudgel against those who hold different intellectual, social, or political views.  I don’t see the point of making racial distinctions.

    • #103
  14. Underground Conservative Inactive
    Underground Conservative
    @UndergroundConservative

    genferei (View Comment):

    I’m not sure people realize how narrow the actual government sanctions are: a handful of people and institutions and a handful of activities (banking, shipping, arms dealing).

    I don’t even know how to respond to this. Millions of Russians are impacted by this. 

    • #104
  15. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    My wife swears by Toyota Avalons!  Me, I don’t care.  As long as it can haul a lot of stuff.

    It’s alright.  I like roadsters and pick-up trucks.  For pick-ups Toyotas really do rule.

    Model image

    • #105
  16. Henry Racette Member
    Henry Racette
    @HenryRacette

    I believe there is a positive value in making the Russian people less comfortable, and thus exerting pressure on the Putin government. Yes, I know their ability to influence their government is limited compared to our own, but it isn’t nonexistent, and their country’s behavior must, ultimately, be their responsibility.

    I have no problem with targeted sanctions. I don’t generally like it when private companies begin expressing their corporate virtue by limiting commerce, because corporations tend to be shallow and short-sighted when they do. But I’m generally on board with imposing costs on Russia and her people while the nation is acting badly.

    That’s no defense of token acts of spite against people who are not in Russia, against Russian-sounding companies and products, etc. The point is to make invading neighboring countries politically uncomfortable for those who choose to do it, not to torment people of any particular ethnicity.

    • #106
  17. Franco Member
    Franco
    @Franco

    MiMac (View Comment):

    Vince Guerra (View Comment):

    James Lileks (View Comment):
    I feel worse for the people being shelled.

    Do you? Which ones?

    The ones who didn’t invade another country

    Just a semantic argument not a moral argument. Is invasion the crime?  Let’s define invasion.

    Did the US invade Iraq? A country half a world away? 

    We had good intentions – according to us. I know I had ‘good intentions’ supporting the war -to a point. Then I questioned other things, outside the box.

    But I don’t fell one bit guilty (hey, maybe I should) over the havoc that visited Iraq or the Iraqi people.

    I remember being against the Viet Nam war (I didn’t know anything I was 17) on a merchant ship to Cam Rahn Bay wondering if I was complicit in helping the war effort. On the trip,  a container broke open from seas  and in the container was cases of Gilby’s Gin and Chips Ahoy cookies in tins. So you be the judge of my guilt….

     

    We are all still subjects.

    This “democracy” thing is the biggest illusion of all. Inel agencies, Corporations, banks, tech, media  and government control everything. It’s an illusion to think we can effect events through the filter of politics and commerce change. And there’s waaaaaaay too much of that going on. Social shaming and deplatforming has gone meta.

    We’ve just destroyed our financial credibility on the world currency and investment market over this, and pushed our enemies into a trade war. Remember Trump was doing a trade war when he was merely negotiating for better terms? This is a trade war and it can metastasize.

     

     

     

    • #107
  18. Phil Turmel Inactive
    Phil Turmel
    @PhilTurmel

    Vince Guerra (View Comment):

    The second part is antithetical to American ideals. We support and empower the notion of liberty and justice for all, be they behind an iron or bamboo curtain or a burka. To deny the fruits of freedom to people in restricted nations, just because we don’t like their leadership flies in the face of our own ideals and makes a mockery of those who went to great lengths to beam Reagan’s broadcasts into the Soviet Union, or smuggle bibles into China, Iran, etc…

    You want to deny Karina freedom of commerce and opportunity to live a better life than her circumstances provide. America was founded on the opposite principle. 

    I strongly disagree with this characterization of my argument.  I am OK with denying Karina freedoms of any kind in Russia as a side effect of any retaliation against Putin’s aggression.  She can flee Russia and become a refugee just like the Ukrainians fleeing Ukraine.  She will then have equal claim on my emotions.

    I also would like to point out that supporting liberty and justice for all does not mean we guarantee those for anyone outside the U.S., just that we support their aspirations.  They still have to step up and act to achieve that.

    • #108
  19. OmegaPaladin Moderator
    OmegaPaladin
    @OmegaPaladin

    Doug Watt (View Comment):

    Russia is at war with the Ukraine. Yes, some of the reactions to Russia have been rather silly. Others are more serious. Over 2 million Ukrainians have been forced out of their homes. Russian forces have been targeting homes, hospitals, and schools. It is hard for me to feel sorry for Russian citizens that have to line-up at an ATM. They get to sleep in their own beds every night. Putin could end this, but the following video makes it clear that lining-up at an ATM is a minor inconvenience compared to what is happening in Ukraine.

     

    Doug, you seem like a practical guy.   When you had a guy pulled over, I believe you would give clear orders to even a dirtbag.  What are your orders for the Russian people?  

    Keep in mind, that Putin has issued a crackdown on dissent, including mass arrests at protests.  You are hearing people say this invasion will be worse than Afghanistan on state TV.  At a certain point, it is good to consider whether most Russian people are hostages rather than accomplices.

    My fundamental issue is that sanctions should focus on the goal of removing Russian invaders from Ukraine.  If a sanction does not do that, it’s just virtue signalling at best, and contributing to Putin’s propaganda at worst.

    • #109
  20. MiMac Thatcher
    MiMac
    @MiMac

    Vince Guerra (View Comment):

    MiMac (View Comment):

    Vince Guerra (View Comment):

    James Lileks (View Comment):
    I feel worse for the people being shelled.

    Do you? Which ones?

    The ones who didn’t invade another country

    More specific please. Any idea how many people are currently being shelled across the globe?

    The vast majority are Ukrainian ..but I realize you fail to notice that fact.

    But I will grant you that the majority of anti-tank rockets fired this week where at Russian tanks. Ohh, the inhumanity of a free people defending themselves….

    • #110
  21. lowtech redneck Coolidge
    lowtech redneck
    @lowtech redneck

    Vince Guerra (View Comment):

    What condition are Russian citizens supposed to meet in order to be deemed worthy of access to western systems-like traveling on a plane, running a business in the West, logging onto a video game or streaming service, or accessing their own bank accounts?

     

    The condition that such sanctions do not validly hinder the capacity of the enemy state they reside in to project power.  Some actions have clearly been pure hateful virtue-signaling (such as banning Russian literature or firing Russian orchestra conductors) while others have been clearly targeted toward a rational end (the Swift sanctions).  There are many that reside within a gray area, where it is unclear (at least to me) to what extent the sanctions could be expected to hinder Russia (which is needed) or to punish its people (which is gratuitous except as collateral damage, and likely counterproductive).

    In any event, we must take steps to prevent such measures from being used against us (either domestically or internationally, from both public and private actors).

    • #111
  22. DrewInWisconsin, Ope! Member
    DrewInWisconsin, Ope!
    @DrewInWisconsin

    Phil Turmel (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Ope! (View Comment):
    I’m just saying that Skyler’s assertion — “A people are responsible for those they allow to rule them” — only works in a system with secure democratic voting.

    History is full of examples of tyrants deposed by their people. And with peoples perfectly happy to participate in the tyranny. No democracy required. Heck, history is fully of tyrannical democracies (looking at you, Athens).

    I can’t speak for Russia but we certainly don’t have that here. Therefore I am not responsible in any way for the evil Biden administration.

    But you are. As am I. Did we speak about politics and morality to enough of our neighbors? Or did we hide because we have too many neighbors on the opposing side? Or family was involved? Maybe even threatened? Or work obligations interfered? Or work itself is on the opposing side? Et cetera, ad nauseum.

    Doesn’t matter what the excuse is. Everyone can come up with one. Doesn’t change the need to act for the good. Unless we’ve died fighting to change our immoral government, we are still responsible.

    Okay, so . . . guillotines?

    • #112
  23. Unsk Member
    Unsk
    @Unsk

    The Californians deserve it. I don’t doubt that there is some Chicago-style ballot stuffing going on but Californians on average want a leftism that destroys wealth and decency. Californians need to be punished for that collectively so they will figure out that what they did is bad. 

    I know how cruel that sounds because California is a huge and diverse filled with good and sensible people. But they ain’t the majority.

    Talk about bigotry. Wow. Just Wow. 

    California voted for the Republican Presidential Candidate every year but one   (LBJ in 1964) from 1952 through 1988, but then King RINO Pappy Bush during his Presidency declared war on Southern California particularly , wiped out the defense industry there   ( where many of big Defense Contractors started like Lockheed and Hughes Aircraft, erased over 125,000 defense related engineering jobs in LA  County alone, then sent in the banking regulators in that severely declining market to mark to market all commercial loans coming up for renewal wiping out tens of thousands of businesses in the process, and then opened the flood gates for illegals.

    He essentially sent many Republicans packing and replaced them with illegals who would vote by the millions   in Cali for the Dems. And you blame we Californians for that? What a ridiculously stupid  and illiterate Clown Bigot!

    • #113
  24. Doug Watt Member
    Doug Watt
    @DougWatt

    OmegaPaladin (View Comment):

    Doug Watt (View Comment):

    Russia is at war with the Ukraine. Yes, some of the reactions to Russia have been rather silly. Others are more serious. Over 2 million Ukrainians have been forced out of their homes. Russian forces have been targeting homes, hospitals, and schools. It is hard for me to feel sorry for Russian citizens that have to line-up at an ATM. They get to sleep in their own beds every night. Putin could end this, but the following video makes it clear that lining-up at an ATM is a minor inconvenience compared to what is happening in Ukraine.

     

    Doug, you seem like a practical guy. When you had a guy pulled over, I believe you would give clear orders to even a dirtbag. What are your orders for the Russian people?

    Keep in mind, that Putin has issued a crackdown on dissent, including mass arrests at protests. You are hearing people say this invasion will be worse than Afghanistan on state TV. At a certain point, it is good to consider whether most Russian people are hostages rather than accomplices.

    My fundamental issue is that sanctions should focus on the goal of removing Russian invaders from Ukraine. If a sanction does not do that, it’s just virtue signalling at best, and contributing to Putin’s propaganda at worst.

    First of all when I was on the street I never told anyone that I was going to take them to booking unless I had enough probable cause and a reasonable belief that they had committed a crime.

    The big mistake at least on the US side was to issue public threats against Putin. That doesn’t leave any room for negotiations. Negotiations might not have stopped this, but it wasn’t helpful to either side.

    Putin was squeezing Ukraine with disinformation and the annexation of Crimea, the Obama administration was squeezing Ukraine, Trump was squeezing Ukraine, and Biden squeezed Ukraine as Vice-President.

    I see things on a very basic level. I’ve seen my share of violence, and some undeserved deaths. I’ve heard a lot of rationalizations for violent behavior, and I’m hearing them now.

    • #114
  25. Unsk Member
    Unsk
    @Unsk

    Gary:

    Let’s see if we can agree about Mariupol which is the last remaining Ukrainian city on the Sea of Azov, which would allow Russia a land bridge from Russia to Crimea.  Mariupol was Ukraine’s tenth largest city with over 400,000 people.  Mariupol has had no power for a week.  It has no access to food.  Russia has refused to allow safe passage for its residents who want to leave for the last week, I believe.  The residents of Mariupol are starving and freezing to death.  Would you agree that this is genocide?

    Got to stand with Gary here. One could argue as many have here that this doesn’t fit the precise definition of “genocide”, okay, mebbe, but it sure seems like a very close second. 

    If trying to wipe out a people unlike your own even if from the distant past they come some the same descendants , isn’t close to genocide then I don’t know what is. The Russians  are indiscriminately murdering Ukrainians by the thousands to gain the upper hand as a military strategy, but Putin is also punishing the Ukrainian people for standing up and fighting back much harder than he anticipated to his unwarranted aggression.  Sure he is pissed because he is taking big losses but so what?

    • #115
  26. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Unsk (View Comment):

    The Californians deserve it. I don’t doubt that there is some Chicago-style ballot stuffing going on but Californians on average want a leftism that destroys wealth and decency. Californians need to be punished for that collectively so they will figure out that what they did is bad.

    I know how cruel that sounds because California is a huge and diverse filled with good and sensible people. But they ain’t the majority.

    Talk about bigotry. Wow. Just Wow.

    California voted for the Republican Presidential Candidate every year but one (LBJ in 1964) from 1952 through 1988, but then King RINO Pappy Bush during his Presidency declared war on Southern California particularly , wiped out the defense industry there ( where many of big Defense Contractors started like Lockheed and Hughes Aircraft, erased over 125,000 defense related engineering jobs in LA County alone, then sent in the banking regulators in that severely declining market to mark to market all commercial loans coming up for renewal wiping out tens of thousands of businesses in the process, and then opened the flood gates for illegals.

    He essentially sent many Republicans packing and replaced them with illegals who would vote by the millions in Cali for the Dems. And you blame we Californians for that? What a ridiculously stupid and illiterate Clown Bigot!

    Aren’t you saying that most of the good people fled, and lots of illegals and other leftists came in?  Wouldn’t that mean that even if California was at least leaning towards doing the right things in the past, that’s no longer true?  At least for the majority.

    So could be be that the old California wouldn’t have deserved it, but it’s not the old California any more?  I guess you could just blame who you think is responsible for ruining the old California, but if the point is that the leftists and illegals now ruining California need to get the message, how is that wrong?

    • #116
  27. BalticSnowTiger Member
    BalticSnowTiger
    @BalticSnowTiger

    Vince Guerra (View Comment):

    MiMac (View Comment):

    Vince Guerra (View Comment):

    James Lileks (View Comment):
    I feel worse for the people being shelled.

    Do you? Which ones?

    The ones who didn’t invade another country

    More specific please. Any idea how many people are currently being shelled across the globe?

    Mate, you are stuck. Ukraine fights for its very existence and the life of its men, women and children – against a 24 months self isolated, 22 year in power, KGB derived, St. Petersburg/Azov mafia sponsored thug with a series of personality disorders beyond his smarts and lizard brain – and you have nothing better to do then go for this?

    Man up. Be solid. Ukrainians want to live free, un-invaded, build their own way out of the transition conundrum of a post-soviet economy. They are decent people overall with the same flaws as ours. But they are fighting against raping, pillaging, looting, civilian bombarding invaders.

    Ike would not have sat idle by and uttered disparaging whataboutisms (normally something lefties and junkyard non-Westerns, and indeed KGB followers do). Neither would Kennedy for all his faults or Reagan, if any of them mean anything to you.

    It is the West’s duty to BE the West, and be the barrier to the lunatic dictator with his brinkmanship and desire to subjugate and eradicate what he specifically demeaningly calls ‘Little Russians’.

    Think. Help them. At the moment we are defending the West to the last drop of blood of the last Ukrainian. Shame on us. This is a fight we must jointly fight. Smart, dedicated, with panache, leadership, skill but also together. We can still engage in barroom brawls after. Otherwise there is no after.

    I am here in Tallinn, Estonia. 172 km away from what has become Mordor, we organise help, helmets, flak vests, etc from all over Europe to go there on daily transport – and the longer I listen to the phone calls intercepted by us of Russian soldiers who collectively claim that they knew nothing (some conscripts did not) but then their phones are connected to those specific calls in which they praise the looting, brag about the minks coats, the ‘electric kitchen mixers’, jewellery to their girlfriends and wives, describe the raping and shooting of the people they raped to their friends, and parents – the more I get why my Ukrainian friends since 2014 call them ORCS.

    Have a heart. If you do not believe me, ask, I and others can send you data, links, images, RAW, made by friends, our IT service team in Kyiv  who now all are in various functions at war, which will make your veins go cold even if you are a veteran and have seen mutilations, heavy indirect fire, and the result of torture, mayhem and executions.

    We have already close to 2 million refugees. The heavy artillery fire after the regrouping of the NW of Kyiv is about to start. This will become much worse. We must help.

    • #117
  28. Vince Guerra Inactive
    Vince Guerra
    @VinceGuerra

    Phil Turmel (View Comment):

    I am OK with denying Karina freedoms of any kind in Russia as a side effect of any retaliation against Putin’s aggression.  She can flee Russia and become a refugee just like the Ukrainians fleeing Ukraine.  She will then have equal claim on my emotions.

    So these people should just up and move to another country before they deserve our sympathy or assistance for a better life.  Maybe that’s easy for an affluent westerner. Not so much for 90% of the rest of the people on the globe. 

    I also would like to point out that supporting liberty and justice for all does not mean we guarantee those for anyone outside the U.S., just that we support their aspirations.  They still have to step up and act to achieve that.

    We don’t even guarantee those for Americans, but wherever we can provide them we used to. 

    Now apparently we reject your freedom application based on geography and nationality. 

    • #118
  29. Doug Watt Member
    Doug Watt
    @DougWatt

    There are Russians fleeing to Finland due to Putin’s invasion of Ukraine:

    Back in Helsinki, the train from St Petersburg is pulling in, carrying hundreds more people anxious to flee Russia. Most trains are fully booked, with ticket prices soaring.

    The amount of money passengers leaving Russia can bring is limited. The rouble is in a state of collapse; the Russian economy is threatened by sanctions and the withdrawal of many large Western companies. Russia’s government is desperate to avoid a run on the banks.

    Will sanctions against wealthy Russians cause them to turn on President Putin? It’s certainly not impossible, but it’s unlikely to force him to stop the war on Ukraine.

    More worrying for him is the call by the Russian oil giant Lukoil for a halt to the invasion. If the main elements of the Russian economy are turning against him, he will find it much harder to carry on without making big changes – such as the introduction of martial law.

    Another woman who has left Russia, this time for Istanbul, told us by phone she had been terrified of a return to life as it was under the Soviet Union.

    “I’m 30, I haven’t seen the worst… the repressions, the secret police,” she said. “I had a very clear fear that if I’m not going to fly out right now, I will not be able to fly out ever.”

    • #119
  30. Unsk Member
    Unsk
    @Unsk

    There are two evil sides to this war from my point of view. 

    Evil Side One

    Yes, Putin entered into this war wanting  to deny Ukraine NATO membership,  apparently wanting to gain control over at least parts of Ukrainian territory, and perhaps did all this to rework the World Order more to his liking.  He clearly did not choose a minor  incursion but went in whole hog knowing full well that thousands upon thousands of Ukrainians would die needlessly, driven by an  evil rage fomented by an unbridled hatred for the West, NATO  and particularly the USA who he thinks destroyed his cherished Soviet Union.  

    Evil Side Two

    But then there is Traitor Joe. He clearly incited Putin egging on Ukraine to ask for full NATO membership, knowing full well that for Putin as well as  almost the totality of the Russian leadership that this NATO membership for Ukraine was a huge Red line that was not to be crossed. Biden continuously egged on Ukraine, purposely to incited Putin to attack in a big way, but at the same time did not prepare Ukraine militarily for this war he was inciting. He talked big but gave very little real aid to Ukraine.  

    One could ask why did Biden do this? Is he as clueless as he seems or is there something else afoot?  

    I believe Biden used the Ukrainian people as cannon fodder for his evil schemes.  He is just as evil as Putin, perhaps even worse.  I think this war was part of his plan.

    Point One

    I think Biden wanted a protracted war in the Ukraine and he got one. 

    His passive/aggressive approach to this war was to incite Putin to go to war in a big way giving  Putin the impression that Ukraine could not resist Russia’s invasion and then to create enough backlash and military resistance against the invasion so Putin would be stuck in a protracted quagmire. 

    Why would Biden do this? Especially since he may be risking nuclear war? I believe his reasons were:

    1. He needed a political distraction that would take his many failures off the front page.
    2. He wanted a protracted war that would stifle oil production so as to raise the price of oil and gas through the roof to please his Masters who are really calling the shots.
    3. A protracted war with Russia served perhaps his biggest play which involved:
      1. Demonizing Russia which would allow him to institute a series of financial controls against Russia, like the SWIFT controls, the Master Card/VISA controls of personal accounts, and other draconian financial schemes like a Digital Currency where the government  could track all financial transactions – all of which he could use eventually in the America under the guise that he just had to – to control Putin.
      2. But then by demonizing Putin and Russia, he could then demonize anyone in the US that  questioned his moves against Putin as a Russian Bot and could then use the same controls against those Americans.  

     

    • #120
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