A Critique of Stephen Meyer’s ‘Return of the God Hypothesis’

 

I have struggled with writing a review of Stephen Meyer’s book, Return of the God Hypothesis, since I finished it a few weeks ago. Every time I pick it up to reread portions of it I find myself wanting to approach the work from a different perspective. The book is neither a straight popularization of science nor an attempt to frame a clear scientific argument. Rather, it’s a well-crafted work of reporting and speculation at the frothy margins of scientific theory that, combined with a few leaps of logic, is harnessed in support of a foreordained conclusion.

I suspect that the science in this book – and there’s quite a lot of it – will, despite being well-presented by an eloquent and talented author, largely elude most readers. Perhaps more importantly, the context from which the science is drawn will likely be unfamiliar to most readers, who will have little familiarity with physics and cosmology beyond what is presented in this book. If this book were merely a popularization of the science of cosmology, that would be fine: people would gain a feel for the state of the field, for its complexity and nuance, and for the remarkable accomplishments that have been made in recent years. But that’s not what this book is. Rather, it’s an attempt to support a metaphysical argument by portraying science as inadequate both in practice and in principle, and so leave no plausible alternative but the eponymous God Hypothesis. To frame that argument responsibly would require considerably more scope and rigor than this already science-heavy book offers. To do it convincingly, on the other hand, requires much less effort, particularly if the reader is inclined to be generous and knows little of physics.

It has been said of Stephen Hawking’s bestselling book A Brief History of Time that it was purchased by many and read by few. I suspect the same is likely true of Return of the God Hypothesis: for many, it will be a tough read. Yet it is an impressive book, and it has lent a great deal of talk-circuit credibility to its author and his premise. The fact that Mr. Meyer is an eloquent speaker and a clever and charming guest undoubtedly adds to that credibility, and it’s understandable why he and his book have received as much praise as they have. Nonetheless, as I will attempt to explain in this review, I think his arguments are weak and his conclusions unsupported.

The book begins with a review of the relationship faith and science have enjoyed throughout history. Meyer is on solid ground when documenting the history of science, and his recounting of man’s march of discovery is readable, detailed, and entertaining. It isn’t relevant to his argument, but it is well-written and informative.

Then we get to the science. Meyer asserts, based on three “scientific discoveries,” these key ideas underlying his argument:

  1. the universe had a beginning;
  2. from the beginning (or shortly thereafter), various physical constants have had values that are unlikely to have arisen by chance – that the universe appears to be “fine-tuned”; and
  3. the genetic coding in DNA represents a kind of “functional” information that is unlikely to have arisen by chance.

I find Meyer’s defense of each of these claims wanting, but, before I critique them, let me make two brief comments, one about the nature of Meyer’s three claims, and the other about the overall thesis of his book.

Meyer’s core argument is that our universe and the life in it are improbable – so statistically improbable as to defy any explanation other than that God designed and created it. It’s difficult to overstate the importance of this: Meyer’s thesis hinges entirely on that alleged improbability.

We can see the probability argument arising from the second and third claims, that of the universe being improbably fine-tuned, and of genetic material having an improbable amount of structure and function. But the first claim is different. It isn’t a claim about probability, but rather part of a necessary precondition to all of Meyer’s arguments. It is essential to his arguments that the universe be finite. It must have had a single beginning; it must eventually end; and there can only be one of them.

Why? Because in order for his statistical arguments of improbability to carry any weight, it’s necessary that the sample space not include an infinite number of instances. This is true because in an infinite number of universes everything that is statistically possible, however statistically improbable, will still happen – in fact, will happen an infinite number of times. And in an infinite number of those instances, the physical constants will have the seemingly improbable values we observe, the seemingly improbable chemistry will have arisen to bring about life such as us, and we will, as improbable as it may seem, be sitting here discussing his book.

Regarding the thesis of his book, I have a problem but I’m not quite sure how to state it. Science, including the science Meyer attempts to disprove in his book, has set itself upon the task of answering the “how, what, and when” questions: how does the world work, what laws govern it, when did or will various events occur? Meyer offers an answer to a question science doesn’t ask: “who?” Meyer wants to tell us who created the universe. He doesn’t attempt to present or defend an answer for any of the questions science asks and seeks to answer.

This seems important to me because it suggests that, contrary to Meyer’s oft-repeated claims, the God Hypothesis actually has no true explanatory power. Rather, it merely claims to name an actor – and an ill-defined actor at that. I wonder, how is Meyer’s claim stronger than this one:

“Some non-sentient but unknown natural mechanism, of which we are as yet completely and utterly unaware, established the conditions under which our observable universe exists and the life within it flourishes.”

That wildly ambiguous claim would at least be rooted in something that is consistent with our universal and repeated experience (as Meyer might put it), that of physical reality and the laws that govern it.

In any case, the fact that Meyer’s hypothesis doesn’t actually answer the questions science asks, and that it opens up a universe of new questions (where did God come from, how does God do what God does, what does the mathematics of God look like, etc.) in the process of not answering them, should give us reason to pause, at least.


Claim: The Universe Had a Beginning

Meyer is a science historian, and his account of the evolution of scientific theory regarding the origin of our universe is readable, detailed, and interesting. Most of what we think of as modern cosmology is quite modern, much of it less than a hundred years old, and some of it only a few decades old. It’s sobering to realize how much of what we know we figured out in just the last 50 years.

Yes, we’re pretty sure that everything in our universe was contained in a microscopic pinpoint about 14 billion years ago, and that that pinpoint expanded with unimaginable speed – and continues to expand today. That idea comports with our observations, and the theory supporting it seems robust. Meyer’s account of how we reached that understanding makes for good reading.

But no, we aren’t sure that the universe had a beginning. We admit that things – matter, energy, physical laws, the nature of space and time itself – were likely very different when the stuff of a billion trillion stars occupied a volume vastly smaller than a pinhead. (How many stars can dance on the head of a pin? All of them, it seems.) But we don’t know how they were different. Nor do we know what came before, nor what prompted the expansion, nor whether it happened exactly once or infinitely many times, or indeed whether or not it’s happening right now elsewhere in our own universe. We speak informally of the Big Bang as the beginning of our universe, but all we really know with confidence is that it was a moment in an evolving series of physical states. We don’t know what states came before, nor what states will follow our own.

Meyer is, in my opinion, too casual in his use of the word “beginning.” In Chapter 6: The Curvature of Space and the Beginning of the Universe, he quotes Stephen Hawking and G.F.R. Ellis as writing (in The Large Scale Structure of the Universe) that the general theory of relativity implies “that there is a singularity in the past that constitutes, in some sense, a beginning of the universe.” (emphasis mine)

What did Hawking et al mean by “in some sense?” I don’t know, and Meyer doesn’t pursue it. But it’s hard to conclude that a beginning “in some sense” is the same as, simply, “a beginning.” And in fact, later Meyer quotes Ellis as observing that some cosmologists now see, in Meyer’s words, “singularity theorems as an interesting piece of pure mathematics, but not as proofs of the beginning of our actual universe.” (again, emphasis mine)

In the same chapter, Meyer quotes Paul Davies, in reference to conditions in the very early universe, as saying: “If we follow this prediction to its extreme….” But must we follow mathematical predictions to their extremes? In particular, when it is widely acknowledged that we don’t know which of our physical laws pertain in the extraordinary conditions in the very early universe, how much stock should we place in predictions followed to that extreme?

It is worth remembering how little we understand of the conditions immediately prior to the expansion of the singularity – assuming there was a singularity. We don’t even know if the view conventionally held, that we can know nothing of the universe prior to the expansion of that initial singularity, is actually correct. We thought it was, but then the late Stephen Hawking made the case that black holes might evaporate through quantum processes, and Roger Penrose theorized that we might find echoes of that evaporation in the cosmic background – echoes of black holes that existed before the singularity itself. We now think that, just a couple of years ago, we may have identified one of these so-called “Hawking points,” these shadows of long-gone black holes of a prior universe, in the cosmic microwave background.

If we did – and it’s still too early to be sure – then the idea that the universe began with the Big Bang will have to be reworked a bit. Indeed, the entire idea of there being only a single universe would be effectively discredited.

Speaking of Roger Penrose, I find the omission of his Conformal Cyclic Cosmology theory odd. Meyer cites Penrose dozens of times in his book, but I’ve found only two references to Penrose’s own recent (2010) theory of how the universe might recur endlessly, both in the footnotes and neither actually engaging the theory. Meyer spends time critiquing less mainstream theories, including that of Max Tegmark whose theory, as Meyer describes it, claims that “every possible mathematical structure imaginable has a physical expression in some possible universe” or, quoting Tegmark now, “All structures that exist mathematically exist also physically.” This seems to me to be a peculiar prioritization on Meyer’s part, and makes me wonder if he is being perhaps too selective in the theories he chooses to present to his readers.

I believe Meyer does his readers a disservice by not accurately portraying the range of multiple-universe theories currently proposed, given that rejecting all of them is critical to his thesis. Meyer requires that there not be an infinite number of universes, either one following another throughout eternity or any number existing simultaneously in parallel. This is perhaps the strongest challenge to his argument from improbability, and it deserves to be treated with more rigor.


Claim: The Universe is Fine-Tuned for Life

Meyer’s second claim is, I think, his strongest, and its defense constitutes the largest portion of his book.

There is a widely held belief that our universe is a very improbable place, and that if any one of a few physical constants differed from its current value by an almost unimaginably small amount, the result would be a universe that could not contain us as observers. Some argue that such apparent precision is unlikely to occur naturally, and so is evidence of intelligence: that these constants were “fine-tuned” to be precisely what is necessary to allow the universe to develop as it has.

This is the core argument Meyer makes, and it can be compelling: accounts of extraordinarily improbable-seeming things can be powerfully persuasive.

But it’s worth considering what is implied by the claim Meyer is making. First, it requires that it be meaningful to speak of “different values for a physical constant,” and it isn’t immediately obvious that that’s the case. After all, we don’t know why physical constants have the values they do, and we don’t know how the various constants might be related to each other through some aspect of physical reality of which we’re still unaware.

Consider Einstein’s theories of special and general relativity. Until barely a hundred years ago we didn’t know that space, time, mass, and energy were mathematically related. We didn’t know that these aspects of the physical world were intertwined in mathematically determined and measurable ways, and that a value in one domain couldn’t be “changed” without influencing the other domains as well.

Now we think we know that most of the handful of (what we think are) fundamental forces and particles are mathematically conjoined, not truly independent of each other. It is no longer safe to assume that any of these things is truly independent of the others. And, just as it is nonsensical to speak of, say, the value of pi changing in relation to the circumference and diameter of a circle – because it is inherently linked to and constrained by both of those things – it may be nonsensical to speak of any given physical constant changing as well.

In particular, to the extent that the apparent fine-tuning of constants related to gravitational attraction is prominent in these examples – and it is – we should be particularly careful, as our best quantum theories still struggle to incorporate gravity, and especially under the exotic conditions of the early universe.

Perhaps there’s some meaning to the idea of certain physical constants “having different values.” It’s certainly essential to Meyer’s claim of so-called “fine tuning.” It is also certainly debatable, and debated.

But, for the sake of discussion, let’s assume for a moment that it’s meaningful to discuss the possibility of physical constants having different values than they do. Meyer’s contention is that, in most of these configurations, intelligent life could not form in the universe that unfolded from these different preconditions.

That strikes me as a very bold claim. To make it, one has to believe both of the following: first, that we can accurately predict the nature of a universe that follows laws other than the laws that govern our own universe; and, secondly, that we have a reasonable understanding of the range of conditions under which intelligent life might arise, and the nature of that life, in universes both like and unlike our own.

It’s worth noting that there is a great deal we still don’t know about the only universe of which we’re aware, the one we can actually observe. And it’s worth noting that we really don’t understand the mechanisms of intelligence, nor the mechanisms by which life emerged, nor whether there is life anywhere else in our universe including on those planets and satellites within reach of our own small blue orb.

Given how new and incomplete our own knowledge is of the universe we inhabit and the rules that govern it, we should be skeptical that we’re capable of anticipating the infinite range of alternative universes that might arise through the modification of various physical constants. Certainly, we have not invested thousands of cosmologist-years in studying these hypothetical alternatives.

Similarly, given that we have exactly one example of life from which to generalize in a universe likely containing literally trillions of planets, it seems prudent to hesitate before speaking with authority regarding which possible universes can and can’t support life.


Claim: The Genetic Code is Evidence of an Intelligent Designer

Put simply, Meyer’s argument here is based on the observation that the genetic code – the encoding of information in the DNA of living things – represents a particular kind of “functional” information storage mechanism that is unlikely to have arisen through purely natural processes. I find this the most unsatisfying of Meyer’s claims.

Meyer argues in his book and in his numerous public appearances that, in our consistent and repeated experience, every instance of such functional information storage is the result of a guiding intelligence. It follows, he argues, that the storage of functional information in DNA must also be the product of a guiding intelligence.

This seems to be such an obviously poor and illogical argument that I find myself wondering if I am missing something profound. But let’s break it down.

  1. We are aware of numerous examples of the encoding of “functional” information in a structured form, from computer programs to grammars to all sorts of artificial symbolic schemes.
  2. Our experience with all of these is that they are the product of intelligence. Specifically, they are the product of human intelligence.
  3. It is, therefore, our uniform and repeated experience that such encoding is the product of intelligence.
  4. But we are also aware of the encoding of “functional” information in a structured form in the DNA that is found in each of our cells. It follows, therefore, that this information too must be the product of intelligence, since it is our universal and repeated experience that all such information is the product of intelligence.

But wait. That is – at best – a circular argument. If we include DNA in our initial inventory of “functional” information, then it’s no longer our uniform and repeated experience that such information is the product of intelligence. Rather, it’s our uniform and repeated experience that man-made encoding of information is man-made. That says nothing about not-man-made encoding of information.

(On the other hand, it does seem to me that Meyer would be more consistent if he argued that, since every instance of encoded information of which we’re aware is actually man-made, DNA must also be man-made. But that would be an even more absurd argument.)

Instances of functional information storage in DNA both predate and outnumber every form which we can trace to an intelligent source – that is, every form which was created by man. Our actual experience is that every cell in every organism contains a vast amount of structured, functional information for which we can identify no creating intelligence. There is no basis, therefore, for his oft-repeated claim that, in our consistent experience, such storage is an artifact of intelligence, and the fact that he continues to repeat the claim strikes me as peculiar.

Note that this is subtly different from a probability argument. The argument is that it is the consistency of our experience regarding the origin of artificially encoded information that compels us to accept an intelligent origin of apparently naturally occurring encoded information.

The error seems too obvious to be overlooked, too often emphasized by Meyer to be accidental, and, frankly, too flagrant to be wholly innocent. Again, perhaps I am misunderstanding his argument in some way which will be immediately evident when it’s explained to me.


God of the Gaps?

Meyer doesn’t like this phrase, and I can understand why. We humans have a long tradition of invoking deities to fill the gaps in our understanding of the material universe. We have probably done it since our earliest moments of awareness – indeed, the utility of having that comforting and ready answer might, one can easily believe, be why we are inclined to believe in the supernatural.

Meyer has written a book that could have been written at any time during our long quest for understanding. The details would change, the sophistication would vary, but the product would be similar: a man standing on the edge of the unknown surveys the wisest men around him and concludes that, since they have no wholly satisfactory answers, one or another god is the most plausible explanation.

Though Meyer objects to the phrase and argues that he is not engaging in an argument from ignorance, here is how he describes, in Chapter 20, the argument he is making:

Premise One: Despite a thorough search, no materialistic causes have been discovered with the power to produce large amounts of specified information required to produce the first cell.

Premise Two: Intelligent causes have demonstrated the power to produce large amounts of specified information.

Premise Three: Intelligent design constitutes the best, most causally adequate explanation for the origin of the specified information in the cell.

Take a look at that Premise One: “Despite a thorough search….”

What does “thorough” mean, in this context? How does “Despite a thorough search” differ from “Thus far?” What aspect of knowledge does Meyer believe we have exhausted, in our thorough but failed search?

There will always be things we haven’t yet figured out. There will always be a precipice, beyond which is something mysterious and seemingly impenetrable. And there will always be those who stand on the edge and give up on the process and think, I guess God did it.

Of course, they could be right. But they don’t have a very good track record, and I think both science and religion suffer when people engage in this kind of end-run around the humble scientific method, or try to co-opt it to make a theological point. (Similarly, science suffers when scientists try to impugn God with their science. But that’s the mirror image of what’s going on here, and a topic for another day.)


The universe is unimaginably vast, at least 90 billion light-years across and perhaps orders of magnitude larger. It contains perhaps trillions of galaxies, each containing hundreds of billions of stars. It is old, several times older than our own sun, and is full of mysteries.

A hundred years ago our best and brightest argued over whether our galaxy was the only one, and whether the universe was older than we now know our own planet to be. We knew a lot – and, it turns out, we knew almost nothing.

Our best understanding, currently represented by quantum field theory, is bizarre and wildly unintuitive – and yet has wonderful predictive power and astounding mathematical rigor: in some ways, it is the most comprehensive and successful scientific theory ever devised.

It’s too early to throw in the towel.

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  1. Arahant Member
    Arahant
    @Arahant

    HeavyWater (View Comment):
    Or put it this way, why would a good God allow Hitler to implement the Holocaust?  Was it necessary for people to suffer terribly in those concentration camps so that in some future life they could enjoy a happier life?  Why wouldn’t a good God allow people to experience the good life without having to suffer through the torture and starvation on the way there?

    Have you ever learned a lesson the hard way? Most folks I know would have it no other way. I hesitate to call it part of human nature, but it is certainly a trend.

    But also step back from this life a minute. Should we castigate Bruno Ganz for playing Hitler in a movie? If lives are not much more than school plays or school movie productions, should we castigate the soul that incarnated as Hitler for having played his part? Might we also note that a lot of people like horror films? If they like horror films, might their souls get something out of horror lives? I don’t like horror movies, and I have no plans for a horror life. That doesn’t mean others don’t want to go there.

    Coming back to your question of omnibenevolence, in all my years, nay decades, of being heavily involved at church, I’ve never heard that one. God directs us towards spiritual growth, which may be seen as benevolent. This is just as our parents try to direct us into becoming functional adults. But when we’re little children and need a swat on the behind to get our attention, we may not perceive the benevolence of the parent in that action. It doesn’t mean they are not benevolent. It means we are too young and inexperienced to recognize the benevolence. So, maybe, even though my church does not teach it, God is omnibenevolent. That doesn’t mean that a couple of souls such as you or I are going to recognize it while we’re here on Earth in our spiritual diapers.

    • #121
  2. Steven Seward Member
    Steven Seward
    @StevenSeward

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    I have often postulated a God that once existed but either no longer exists or no longer intervenes in the universe he created. In other words, maybe there was once a God and he did create the universe in its initial state. But from that moment on either he no longer existed or he no longer interacted with the universe.

    This would explain the problem of divine hiddenness/evil. It would explain why it’s hard to get people to agree on God’s nature, whether Jesus rose from the dead, whether Mohammed heard the voice of an angel in a cave, whether the pastor at your nearby church is preaching the word of God or leading people away from God’s word.

    Most people just kind of  automatically assume that if there is a God, he must be perfect and omnipotent; hence all the efforts to explain the Holocaust and unfairness in life.  I don’t know why the assumption of a perfect God is so  common.  What if he is not so  perfect?  What if he is an immature God?  That would be a better explanation for all the injustice in life.  I don’t really know the answer, but I think  it is important to point out this conundrum.

    • #122
  3. Django Member
    Django
    @Django

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Django (View Comment):

    The limitation to his argument, as I see it, is that it does not address the problems of birth defects, mental illness, childhood cancer, etc. But then, one can’t say they are the result of evil will on the part of humans, as one should with the Holocaust.

    People talk about that stuff a lot in philosophy and theology.

    OK; I’ll listen to the first five minutes and then re-evaluate. 

    • #123
  4. Arahant Member
    Arahant
    @Arahant

    HeavyWater (View Comment):
    I have often postulated a God that once existed but either no longer exists or no longer intervenes in the universe he created.  In other words, maybe there was once a God and he did create the universe in its initial state.  But from that moment on either he no longer existed or he no longer interacted with the universe.  

    He still exists. He just forgot the simulation was running on his server in the other room. He’ll be back to smite us all soon. 😜

    • #124
  5. Arahant Member
    Arahant
    @Arahant

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    Arahant (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    One issue that has been brought up is: What about heaven?

    Are people going to do bad things in heaven? Or, when people get to heaven, will people only do good?

    That was a real hoot!

    I know a song for every subject.

    • #125
  6. Steven Seward Member
    Steven Seward
    @StevenSeward

    Arahant (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    Arahant (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    One issue that has been brought up is: What about heaven?

    Are people going to do bad things in heaven? Or, when people get to heaven, will people only do good?

    That was a real hoot!

    I know a song for every subject.

    Then you don’t know a song for the King, for the King is not a subject.

    • #126
  7. Arahant Member
    Arahant
    @Arahant

    Steven Seward (View Comment):
    don’t know why the assumption of a perfect God is so  common.  What if he is not so  perfect?  What if he is an immature God?  That would be a better explanation for all the injustice in life.

    Hey, Earth was just his kindergarten project. You should see the work he’s doing now. 😜

    • #127
  8. Arahant Member
    Arahant
    @Arahant

    Arahant (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):
    don’t know why the assumption of a perfect God is so common. What if he is not so perfect? What if he is an immature God? That would be a better explanation for all the injustice in life.

    Hey, Earth was just his kindergarten project. You should see the work he’s doing now. 😜

    Also, Earth is held onto God’s mom’s refrigerator with a magnet. A very big magnet. That’s where the Earth’s magnetic field really comes from.

    • #128
  9. Arahant Member
    Arahant
    @Arahant

    Steven Seward (View Comment):
    Then you don’t know a song for the King, for the King is not a subject.

    Rimshot GIFs on Giphy

    • #129
  10. Steven Seward Member
    Steven Seward
    @StevenSeward

    Arahant (View Comment):

    Arahant (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):
    don’t know why the assumption of a perfect God is so common. What if he is not so perfect? What if he is an immature God? That would be a better explanation for all the injustice in life.

    Hey, Earth was just his kindergarten project. You should see the work he’s doing now. 😜

    Also, Earth is held onto God’s mom’s refrigerator with a magnet. A very big magnet. That’s where the Earth’s magnetic field really come from.

    I think you’ve just created an important new cosmological theory!  What should we call it?  Refrigerator Universe?

    • #130
  11. Arahant Member
    Arahant
    @Arahant

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    I think you’ve just created an important new cosmological theory!  What should we call it?  Refrigerator Universe?

    That works for me.

    • #131
  12. Henry Racette Member
    Henry Racette
    @HenryRacette

    Nanocelt TheContrarian (View Comment):
    In my view there are a lot of mistakes in Racette’s analysis. Too many to begin to address.

    Probably, but that “too many to begin to address” is kind of lame, isn’t it? I mean, one can begin with just a thing or two, and that can hardly be too many. Right?

    Seriously though, I tried to avoid the key mistakes that I think Meyer is making, which is putting too much faith in bleeding-edge theories and speaking with too much confidence about results that are still speculative and evolving. The truth is, even many of the things about which we have been more or less confident for decades are still contested, including some really big things like singularities and whether or not they really exist; relativistic models of gravity; and whether or not the universe is really essentially the same everywhere (a key assumption underlying the standard model of cosmology).

    Meyer strains at gnats and swallow camels. Okay, the things he strains at aren’t really gnats, but rather serious questions and challenges to one or another theory. It’s fair that he not assume any big theory is entirely correct. But it’s likewise a mistake for him to assume that he knows they’re wrong.

    Nanocelt TheContrarian (View Comment):
    The point that is always elided, by both Meyer and Racette, is the direct interaction of consciousness with matter/energy.

    I assume you’re referring to quantum superposition and the collapse of the wave function during observation. In fact, far from eliding it, Meyer mentioned it quite a lot in his book, citing it as a reason why quantum models of the universe’s origin have a problem since there would presumably be no observer at the “beginning” of the universe to collapse the wave equations. I think that’s a good example of the kind of overly ambitious assumptions Meyer makes. We believe that the observer phenomenon is real, but we don’t begin to understand why it is what it is (well, some people claim they do), and we certainly don’t know if the wave equations might collapse under other circumstances — including, for example, circumstances that might exist in the very early universe. (In fairness to Meyer, this was not his only objection to quantum expansion models.)

    I think you’re more wrong than right about our failure to, as you put it,

    Nanocelt TheContrarian (View Comment):
    One cannot speculate that the fundamental constants are interrelated in some specific way when the Theory doesn’t in any way address the reasons for those constants.

    Of course one can speculate. What one can’t do is rule it out. The reality is that we have a beautiful equation that has fantastic predictive power and unifies the majority of the forces and particles of which we’re aware — with gravity being the glaring exception. It’s elegant, concise, powerful, and thoroughly extraordinary. It goes a long way toward modeling everything we know about the physical properties of the natural world. It’s almost certainly wrong, perhaps in the same sense that Newton’s classical mechanics are wrong and Einstein’s relativity is wrong. But it’s beautiful and it’s useful.

    Your comment is mistaken in another way: yes, we can search for and perhaps find relationships between things even when we don’t understand why those things are related. That’s often the first step in discovery, after all.

    No, the mistake is to end the speculation and conclude that, because we haven’t answered the questions yet, only God can answer them for us.

    Nanocelt TheContrarian (View Comment):
    Per the physicists, the unfolding of the Universe was completely encoded in the early universe. That means you and I were encoded in the Universe at the time of the Big Bang. Maybe Meyers, or Racette, could expound at on that at some point.

    I made that argument in an essay I wrote in 8th grade: that we had no free will, because everything proceeded mechanistically from the Big Bang. My teacher, a Catholic nun, didn’t care for it, but she gave me a good grade. But, of course, not all physicists believe that: the question of whether or not the universe is wholly deterministic is just one more hotly debated point.


    And I see that the thread has devolved into a discussion of speculative religious ideas. Given that that’s kind of the topic of the post, I suppose that’s alright.

    • #132
  13. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    No, the mistake is to end the speculation and conclude that, because we haven’t answered the questions yet, only God can answer them for us.

    Were that his entire argument, it really would be an argument from ignorance.

    • #133
  14. Henry Racette Member
    Henry Racette
    @HenryRacette

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    No, the mistake is to end the speculation and conclude that, because we haven’t answered the questions yet, only God can answer them for us.

    Were that his entire argument, it really would be an argument from ignorance.

    Your words, my friend.

    • #134
  15. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Henry Racette (# 132):

    No, the mistake is to end the speculation and conclude that, because we haven’t answered the questions yet, only God can answer them for us.

    Were that his entire argument, it really would be an argument from ignorance.

    Your words, my friend.

    What is that supposed to mean?

    You do realize that you cited an argument with two premises in your post, right?  And that # 132 describes an argument with only one premise?

    • #135
  16. Henry Racette Member
    Henry Racette
    @HenryRacette

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Henry Racette (# 132):

    No, the mistake is to end the speculation and conclude that, because we haven’t answered the questions yet, only God can answer them for us.

    Were that his entire argument, it really would be an argument from ignorance.

    Your words, my friend.

    What is that supposed to mean?

    You do realize that you cited an argument with two premises in your post, right? And that # 132 describes an argument with only one premise?

    I think I cited an argument with three premises. At least, that’s how I wrote the post.

    In any case, what Meyer does is attempt to falsify all naturalistic hypotheses by introducing an unfalsifiable hypothesis. He does this on the grounds that he finds the available naturalistic hypotheses inadequate. And that, the declaring of untested hypotheses false for want of supporting evidence, is, as I argued in #15, a form of an argument from ignorance.

    • #136
  17. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Henry Racette (# 132):

    No, the mistake is to end the speculation and conclude that, because we haven’t answered the questions yet, only God can answer them for us.

    Were that his entire argument, it really would be an argument from ignorance.

    Your words, my friend.

    What is that supposed to mean?

    You do realize that you cited an argument with two premises in your post, right? And that # 132 describes an argument with only one premise?

    I think I cited an argument with three premises. At least, that’s how I wrote the post.

    Good heavens!  You did write it that way!

    What then was the conclusion of the argument?  Did you not mean to identity “Intelligent design constitutes the best, most causally adequate explanation for the origin of the specified information in the cell” as the argument’s conclusion?

    That’s how it’s done in this blog post, and it makes more sense that way–what with you not stating a conclusion and what with your so-called “Premise Three” being supported by Premises One and Two.

    In any case, what Meyer does is attempt to falsify all naturalistic hypotheses by introducing an unfalsifiable hypothesis. He does this on the grounds that he finds the available naturalistic hypotheses inadequate. And that, the declaring of untested hypotheses false for want of supporting evidence, is, as I argued in #15, a form of an argument from ignorance.

    # 15 was terribly unclear.  You should consider going back to # 18 and explaining yourself.

    But please don’t do that if it means you ignore my next point!  The next one is more important:

    You are contradicting yourselfHere you say that Premise One of his argument renders his argument an argument from ignorance–which is just what you denied in # 8.

    I’ve begun to suspect that beneath your unclarity lurks a pretty clear and perhaps thought, a though around which you dance without every quite landing on it: Your real complaint is with his argument’s conclusion, not with how he gets to it.

    • #137
  18. Henry Racette Member
    Henry Racette
    @HenryRacette

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Henry Racette (# 132):

    No, the mistake is to end the speculation and conclude that, because we haven’t answered the questions yet, only God can answer them for us.

    Were that his entire argument, it really would be an argument from ignorance.

    Your words, my friend.

    What is that supposed to mean?

    You do realize that you cited an argument with two premises in your post, right? And that # 132 describes an argument with only one premise?

    I think I cited an argument with three premises. At least, that’s how I wrote the post.

    Good heavens! You did write it that way!

    What then was the conclusion of the argument? Did you not mean to identity “Intelligent design constitutes the best, most causally adequate explanation for the origin of the specified information in the cell” as the argument’s conclusion?

    That’s how it’s done in this blog post, and it makes more sense that way–what with you not stating a conclusion and what with your so-called “Premise Three” being supported by Premises One and Two.

    In any case, what Meyer does is attempt to falsify all naturalistic hypotheses by introducing an unfalsifiable hypothesis. He does this on the grounds that he finds the available naturalistic hypotheses inadequate. And that, the declaring of untested hypotheses false for want of supporting evidence, is, as I argued in #15, a form of an argument from ignorance.

    # 15 was terribly unclear. You should consider going back to # 18 and explaining yourself.

    But please don’t do that if it means you ignore my next point! The next one is more important:

    You are contradicting yourself. Here you say that Premise One of his argument renders his argument an argument from ignorance–which is just what you denied in # 8.

    I’ve begun to suspect that beneath your unclarity lurks a pretty clear and perhaps thought, a though around which you dance without every quite landing on it: Your real complain is with his argument’s conclusion, not with how he gets to it.

    I try not to engage you too much because you and I don’t communicate well. I’ll share the blame for that (though not all of it).

    What I wish to make clear is why I consider his hypothesis an argument from ignorance. I will try to be concise.

    1. One form of an argument from ignorance is the rejection of arguments as false even though they have not been falsified. This often takes the form of rejecting arguments which lack specific positive confirmation but, since we’re talking about science and the fundamental test in science is falsification, I’ll phrase it as I have.
    2. The moment a non-testable hypothesis is presented, all testable hypotheses are rejected as inferior. This is true because no non-testable hypothesis can be falsified, while any other hypothesis remains falsifiable.
    3. Therefore, asserting a non-testable hypothesis is equivalent to declaring all other hypotheses, including those that have not been falsified, false.

    And that is what Meyer does when he introduces a non-falsifiable hypothesis.

    • #138
  19. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    What I wish to make clear is why I consider his hypothesis an argument from ignorance. I will try to be concise.

    1. One form of an argument from ignorance is the rejection of arguments as false even though they have not been falsified. This often takes the form of rejecting arguments which lack specific positive confirmation but, since we’re talking about science and the fundamental test in science is falsification, I’ll phrase it as I have.

    You are completely wrong.  However, you are very close to being right!

    Your description of this variety of rejection is fine and dandy!

    But an argument is a set of statements, one of which, the conclusion, is drawn from the other(s), the premise(s).  And an argument from ignorance is one which draws its conclusion simply from a statement of ignorance.

    That rejection you speak of is not the whole set, but is either a premise or a conclusion in an argument.  If it is a premise and the only premise of an argument, then you have an argument from ignorance.

    But Meyer’s argument is not like that at all, as your citation of his Premise Two in the original post shows.

    1. The moment a non-testable hypothesis is presented, all testable hypotheses are rejected as inferior. This is true because no non-testable hypothesis can be falsified, while any other hypothesis remains falsifiable.
    2. Therefore, asserting a non-testable hypothesis is equivalent to declaring all other hypotheses, including those that have not been falsified, false.

    And that is what Meyer does when he introduces a non-falsifiable hypothesis.

    Cool.  But this is a complaint about the conclusion of Meyer’s  argument, not a complaint about the argument he uses to get to it.

    • #139
  20. Henry Racette Member
    Henry Racette
    @HenryRacette

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    What I wish to make clear is why I consider his hypothesis an argument from ignorance. I will try to be concise.

    1. One form of an argument from ignorance is the rejection of arguments as false even though they have not been falsified. This often takes the form of rejecting arguments which lack specific positive confirmation but, since we’re talking about science and the fundamental test in science is falsification, I’ll phrase it as I have.

    You are completely wrong. However, you are very close to being right!

    Your description of this variety of rejection is fine and dandy!

    But an argument is a set of statements, one of which, the conclusion, is drawn from the other(s), the premise(s). And an argument from ignorance is one which draws its conclusion simply from a statement of ignorance.

    That rejection you speak of is not the whole set, but is either a premise or a conclusion in an argument. If it is a premise and the only premise of an argument, then you have an argument from ignorance.

    But Meyer’s argument is not like that at all, as your citation of his Premise Two in the original post shows.

    1. The moment a non-testable hypothesis is presented, all testable hypotheses are rejected as inferior. This is true because no non-testable hypothesis can be falsified, while any other hypothesis remains falsifiable.
    2. Therefore, asserting a non-testable hypothesis is equivalent to declaring all other hypotheses, including those that have not been falsified, false.

    And that is what Meyer does when he introduces a non-falsifiable hypothesis.

    Cool. But this is a complaint about the conclusion of Meyer’s argument, not a complaint about the argument he uses to get to it.

    No. The argument Meyer “uses to get there” is that (his selected subsets of) materialistic explanations don’t explain the universe. His proposed alternative hypothesis declares all possible materialistic explanations false (by virtue of his claim being the only unfalsifiable one). And that is an argument from ignorance.

     

    • #140
  21. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    No. The argument Meyer “uses to get there” is that (his selected subsets of) materialistic explanations don’t explain the universe. His proposed alternative hypothesis declares all possible materialistic explanations false (by virtue of his claim being the only unfalsifiable one). And that is an argument from ignorance.

    If that were all he were doing, it would be an argument from ignorance.

    You’re ignoring the Premise Two you yourself cited.

    • #141
  22. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    From what I can tell, you think an argument that happens to rely on some level of ignorance is for that reason an argument from ignorance.  That’s why I asked (and still wish you would answer directly) my initial question in comment # 1.

    • #142
  23. Henry Racette Member
    Henry Racette
    @HenryRacette

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    From what I can tell, you think an argument that happens to rely on some level of ignorance is for that reason an argument from ignorance. That’s why I asked (and still wish you would answer directly) my initial question in comment # 1.

    No. I think I was pretty clear in my comment # 138: an argument that puts forth an untestable hypothesis inherently claims to falsify all testable hypotheses and, if all possible testable hypotheses have not been falsified, that is an argument from ignorance.

    PS And Meyer’s entire argument does precisely that.

    • #143
  24. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    From what I can tell, you think an argument that happens to rely on some level of ignorance is for that reason an argument from ignorance. That’s why I asked (and still wish you would answer directly) my initial question in comment # 1.

    No.

    Then why do you keep saying that Meyer’s argument is an argument from ignorance because it draws from a statement about what we don’t know?

    # 15:

    One of the forms of an argument from ignorance is to claim that, because a proposition has not been proven true, it must be false. What Meyer is doing is a subtle version of that.

    # 132:

    . . . the mistake is to end the speculation and conclude that, because we haven’t answered the questions yet, only God can answer them for us.

    # 136:

    And that, the declaring of untested hypotheses false for want of supporting evidence, is, as I argued in #15, a form of an argument from ignorance.

    # 140: The argument Meyer “uses to get there” is that (his selected subsets of) materialistic explanations don’t explain the universe.

    • #144
  25. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    I think I was pretty clear in my comment # 138: an argument that puts forth an untestable hypothesis inherently claims to falsify all testable hypotheses and, if all possible testable hypotheses have not been falsified, that is an argument from ignorance.

    PS And Meyer’s entire argument does precisely that.

    The inherent claim “to falsify all testable hypotheses” is an effect of his position’s unfalsifiability, is it not?

    Then this is a complaint about Meyer’s conclusion, not about his argument for it.

    • #145
  26. Henry Racette Member
    Henry Racette
    @HenryRacette

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    I think I was pretty clear in my comment # 138: an argument that puts forth an untestable hypothesis inherently claims to falsify all testable hypotheses and, if all possible testable hypotheses have not been falsified, that is an argument from ignorance.

    PS And Meyer’s entire argument does precisely that.

    The inherent claim “to falsify all testable hypotheses” is an effect of his position’s unfalsifiability, is it not?

    Then this is a complaint about Meyer’s conclusion, not about his argument for it.

    Well, no. It’s a complaint about Meyer’s conclusion and the manner in which he reached it, which must necessarily include his argument for it.

    Imagine if he had somehow falsified all possible alternative hypotheses. In that case, his conclusion would probably not be an argument from ignorance, since there would be no unfalsified hypotheses remaining to have been preemptively declared false.

    But he didn’t really falsify all possible alternative hypotheses. That would be hard to do, since we almost certainly haven’t enumerated all possible alternative hypotheses, and in any case he absolutely did not address all alternative hypotheses.

    So, failing to falsify all possible alternative hypotheses and yet declaring them all false by asserting an unfalsifiable alternative, he did in fact make an argument from ignorance.

    • #146
  27. Henry Racette Member
    Henry Racette
    @HenryRacette

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    I think I was pretty clear in my comment # 138: an argument that puts forth an untestable hypothesis inherently claims to falsify all testable hypotheses and, if all possible testable hypotheses have not been falsified, that is an argument from ignorance.

    PS And Meyer’s entire argument does precisely that.

    The inherent claim “to falsify all testable hypotheses” is an effect of his position’s unfalsifiability, is it not?

    Then this is a complaint about Meyer’s conclusion, not about his argument for it.

    Well, no. It’s a complaint about Meyer’s conclusion and the manner in which he reached it, which must necessarily include his argument for it.

    Imagine if he had somehow falsified all possible alternative hypotheses. In that case, his conclusion would probably not be an argument from ignorance, since there would be no unfalsified hypotheses remaining to have been preemptively declared false.

    But he didn’t really falsify all possible alternative hypotheses. That would be hard to do, since we almost certainly haven’t enumerated all possible alternative hypotheses, and in any case he absolutely did not address all alternative hypotheses.

    So, failing to falsify all possible alternative hypotheses and yet declaring them all false by asserting an unfalsifiable alternative, he did in fact make an argument from ignorance.

    • #147
  28. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Henry Racette (View Comment):
    So, failing to falsify all possible alternative hypotheses and yet declaring them all false by asserting an unfalsifiable alternative, he did in fact make an argument from ignorance.

    So the problem is that he doesn’t know they’re all false, but assumes they are?

    But he doesn’t assume it. He concludes it. The only ignorance involved in his argument is the ignorance in Premise One.

    • #148
  29. Henry Racette Member
    Henry Racette
    @HenryRacette

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Henry Racette (View Comment):
    So, failing to falsify all possible alternative hypotheses and yet declaring them all false by asserting an unfalsifiable alternative, he did in fact make an argument from ignorance.

    So the problem is that he doesn’t know they’re all false, but assumes they are?

    But he doesn’t assume it. He concludes it. The only ignorance involved in his argument is the ignorance in Premise One.

    No. I reject the notion that Stephen Meyer has successfully falsified all as-yet unstated cosmological theories in his recent work of popular science.

    Whether or not he is aware that he is making an argument from ignorance is irrelevant: he is making an argument from ignorance.

    • #149
  30. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Henry Racette (View Comment):
    Well, no. It’s a complaint about Meyer’s conclusion and the manner in which he reached it, which must necessarily include his argument for it.

    Just thought of something.

    Maybe you’re thinking that everything in his conclusion must be coming from his argument. So, since his conclusion is unfalsifiable–and since that means every other explanation must be wrong–his argument must also be assuming that every other explanation is wrong.  Which means his argument must be drawing from a presumption that we’ll always be ignorant of any other explanation.

    Is that it?

    • #150
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