Building Collapse in Miami

 

How does this happen in the United States of America?

A 12-story oceanfront condo tower partially collapsed early Thursday morning in the town of Surfside, spurring a massive search-and-rescue effort with dozens of rescue crews from across Miami-Dade and Broward counties.

Reinforced concrete should not fail this way. Clearly, something was not done right, either when it was built, or to maintain it.

I fear there is more of this in our future, as the left continues is march through everything as it destroys all standards.

Prayers for these people and their families.

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  1. Raxxalan Member
    Raxxalan
    @Raxxalan

    RufusRJones (View Comment):
    “Public goods”only.  When the government does anything else, it adds negative value. 

    I regret I can only like it once.  Also I intend to shamelessly steal this line.

    • #31
  2. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    I appreciate the responses, but remain unconvinced about the automatic assignment of blame to an unspecified someone. I actually find this to be something that should be avoided.

    There is a technical legal doctrine for this argument, called res ipsa loquitur. I won’t bore you with the details. I don’t think that it applies in the present context.

    As an example, assume that the sinkhole hypothesis turns out to be correct. Would this mean that someone is to blame? If so, who?

    I have no idea whether sinkholes are common in this particular part of Florida. If so, I don’t know how common they might be. I don’t know what it takes to detect sinkholes. I don’t know who is responsible for checking, as a legal matter. Is it the city, or the landowner, or someone else?

    Even assuming assignment of this responsibility to some party, I don’t know what standard should be applied. How often should one check for sinkholes? Perhaps there are multiple ways to detect sinkholes. I don’t know. If so, what method should be used?

    Assuming that someone is responsible to check for sinkholes, and that there is an established method and timetable for doing so, I don’t know whether or not this was done.

    I strongly suspect that no one else, here at Ricochet, knows any of these things.

    I am somewhat troubled by the basic argument that I’ve seen here, which looks like some sort of safetyism. Something bad happened, and we’re in a first world country, so someone obviously should have prevented it. My view is maybe, maybe not. Maybe we should wait for the facts.

     “Safetyism”? A building fell down. Buildings don’t fall down (outside of earthquakes). We expect this is places like China, not America. 

    In every case of non-disaster related infrastructure failure I now of, someone, at some time, did not do his or her job correctly, and the structure failed. When the balconies collapsed in the hotel, it was because they were not built correctly. People were a fault. Even in Katrina, the flooding was caused because a barge broke free and rammed a wall, letting water through. A better built system coupled with a barge that did not get free would have saved lives. People died because the Army Corp of Engineers did not do a good enough job. 

    Now, a sink hole would be a form of natural disaster. So are Earthquakes. And, we now build to resist earthquakes. If an area is prone to sinkholes that can collapse a building, it is not unreasonable to expect that the people who sign off on safety make sure that buildings won’t collapse into sink holes. 

    The bottom line, though, is that building collapses outside of natural disasters (and we have no evidence of this at the time) are the fault of human beings. It is perfectly reasonable to look at a building collapsing and say “someone messed up”, as much as it is reasonable to say that when we see a car skid off the road it was diver error. Yes, the driver might have had a stroke. That is unlikely. 

    • #32
  3. W Bob Member
    W Bob
    @WBob

    Raxxalan (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    This building collapse is a tragedy.

    According to this report from the Miami Herald, the building was a 12-story, 130-unit condo completed in 1981. There were 55 units in the portion that collapsed. The collapse occurred at around 1:30 am.

    I am perplexed about the assignment of blame for this, both in the OP and in the comments. I don’t think that anyone yet knows the cause of the collapse. Why would anyone jump to a conclusion about the cause, less than 12 hours after this terrible event?

    It is not jumping to conclusions about the cause to say it should not have happened. All I said was that buildings should not fail like this. Something was not done correctly. That includes failing to detect a sinkhole in a city full of sink holes.

    .

    It is possible that at the time that it was built there wasn’t one to be detected. It would be interesting to know what else was going on around there in terms of construction. In Amsterdam when they put in a subway system it broke and displaced a bunch of pylons in the neighboring buildings causing much the same thing. I think in Chicago Some work on a canal breached an old tunnel causing flooding and a draining of part of the canal. Sometimes the problem isn’t with the structure as it was designed but with the unforeseen complications from other things.

    The pilings under this building must have been totally undermined for a sinkhole to have caused this. When they built it presumably the pilings were driven into the ground and the ground must have appeared normal when they did this. The purpose is to further harden and compact the soil under the foundation. If a natural sinkhole could undermine high rise construction pilings like that, that’s really troubling. 

    • #33
  4. ctlaw Coolidge
    ctlaw
    @ctlaw

    Long term subsidence:

    https://www.flseagrant.org/wp-content/uploads/Increasing-flood-haz._MB-case-study-2016.pdf

    https://faculty.fiu.edu/~swdowins/publications/Fiaschi-Wdowinski-OCM-2020.pdf

    In some locations, as in the eastern part of the city, the detected subsidence is of a 12-story high condominium building (northernmost black circle in Fig. 3A).

    • #34
  5. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    Raxxalan (View Comment):

    Percival (View Comment):

    Raxxalan (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    This building collapse is a tragedy.

    According to this report from the Miami Herald, the building was a 12-story, 130-unit condo completed in 1981. There were 55 units in the portion that collapsed. The collapse occurred at around 1:30 am.

    I am perplexed about the assignment of blame for this, both in the OP and in the comments. I don’t think that anyone yet knows the cause of the collapse. Why would anyone jump to a conclusion about the cause, less than 12 hours after this terrible event?

    I didn’t necessarily take it that way. I took it as the government takes an awful lot of money but doesn’t use for what we should expect our government to spend that money on. It is quite possible, maybe even likely, that this is a tragic natural occurrence that couldn’t be stopped or foreseen. Remember this government claims to be able to do everything from stopping unnecessary death, controlling the weather, eliminating poverty and want, and perfect the souls of mankind. If you make those kinds of claims you should expect to be blamed for every misfortune that befalls mankind.

    The NWS can’t predict whether it is going to rain this afternoon. 50% chance? Thanks, G.

    @ percival But somehow they can predict the temperature 30 years into the future.

    Piece of cake. Chiseled in stone.

    • #35
  6. RufusRJones Member
    RufusRJones
    @RufusRJones

    Raxxalan (View Comment):

    RufusRJones (View Comment):
    “Public goods”only. When the government does anything else, it adds negative value.

    I regret I can only like it once. Also I intend to shamelessly steal this line.

    Just to be super clear, people need to Google that term. I wish the Republicans would use it frequently. If we only had public goods produced by the government, and the stupid Federal Reserve stopped pushing the economy around, everybody would be better off and conservatism and libertarianism would actually work and sell.

    • #36
  7. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    ctlaw (View Comment):

    Long term subsidence:

    https://www.flseagrant.org/wp-content/uploads/Increasing-flood-haz._MB-case-study-2016.pdf

    https://faculty.fiu.edu/~swdowins/publications/Fiaschi-Wdowinski-OCM-2020.pdf

    In some locations, as in the eastern part of the city, the detected subsidence is of a 12-story high condominium building (northernmost black circle in Fig. 3A).

    I am not sure what subsidence means? Is this land being washed away?

    • #37
  8. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Weeping (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Kozak (View Comment):

    A pedestrian walkway collapsed in the DC area yesterday.

    Can’t like. This is the future. Corrupt systems that cannot maintain basic needs. Excuses made by the elite, but nothing gets fixed or improved.

    And Texans have received pleas to raise their thermostats and help conserve energy because the energy grid might collapse otherwise. And we’re only in June. The worst is yet to come temperature-wise.

    So my question is: Taxpayers are paying to keep things like this from happening (energy grids, bridges, buildings, walkways, etc from collapsing). That’s not being done, apparently. So where is the money going?

    Every institution is corrupt. They are full of people not interested in the mission of the institution, just themselves.

    Turning and turning in the widening gyre
    The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

     

    • #38
  9. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Raxxalan (View Comment):

    Weeping (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Kozak (View Comment):

    A pedestrian walkway collapsed in the DC area yesterday.

    Can’t like. This is the future. Corrupt systems that cannot maintain basic needs. Excuses made by the elite, but nothing gets fixed or improved.

    And Texans have received pleas to raise their thermostats and help conserve energy because the energy grid might collapse otherwise. And we’re only in June. The worst is yet to come temperature-wise.

    So my question is: Taxpayers are paying to keep things like this from happening (energy grids, bridges, buildings, walkways, etc from collapsing). That’s not being done, apparently. So where is the money going?

    CRT training, Gender transition surgery for the military, Teachers Unions, and if HR1/SB1 had passed to fund democratic political campaigns.

    If HR1/SB1 had passed, would they even NEED campaigns?

    I suppose they would still go around hoovering up money, but they wouldn’t need to spend it campaigning.

    • #39
  10. MWD B612 "Dawg" Member
    MWD B612 "Dawg"
    @danok1

    ctlaw (View Comment):

    Long term subsidence:

    https://www.flseagrant.org/wp-content/uploads/Increasing-flood-haz._MB-case-study-2016.pdf

    https://faculty.fiu.edu/~swdowins/publications/Fiaschi-Wdowinski-OCM-2020.pdf

    In some locations, as in the eastern part of the city, the detected subsidence is of a 12-story high condominium building (northernmost black circle in Fig. 3A).

    According to this article, Wdowinski immediatly thought of this building when he heard about a collapse:

    The building, which was constructed in 1981, has been sinking at an alarming rate since the 1990s, according to a study in 2020 by Shimon Wdowinski, a professor in the Department of Earth and Environment.

    When Wdowinski saw the news that the Champlain Towers South condominium in Surfside collapsed, he instantly remembered it from the study, he said.

    “I looked at it this morning and said, ‘Oh my god.’ We did detect that,” he said.

    Wdowinski said his research is not meant to suggest certainty about what caused the collapse. The building was sinking at a rate of about 2 millimeters a year in the 1990s and could have slowed or accelerated in the time since, he said.

     

    • #40
  11. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Weeping (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Kozak (View Comment):

    A pedestrian walkway collapsed in the DC area yesterday.

    Can’t like. This is the future. Corrupt systems that cannot maintain basic needs. Excuses made by the elite, but nothing gets fixed or improved.

    And Texans have received pleas to raise their thermostats and help conserve energy because the energy grid might collapse otherwise. And we’re only in June. The worst is yet to come temperature-wise.

    So my question is: Taxpayers are paying to keep things like this from happening (energy grids, bridges, buildings, walkways, etc from collapsing). That’s not being done, apparently. So where is the money going?

    Every institution is corrupt. They are full of people not interested in the mission of the institution, just themselves.

    Turning and turning in the widening gyre
    The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

     

    Best said by G’Kar for sure! 

    • #41
  12. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):
    The bottom line, though, is that building collapses outside of natural disasters (and we have no evidence of this at the time) are the fault of human beings. It is perfectly reasonable to look at a building collapsing and say “someone messed up”, as much as it is reasonable to say that when we see a car skid off the road it was diver error. Yes, the driver might have had a stroke. That is unlikely. 

    Back in May, one of the tie girders on the I-40 Hernando de Soto Bridge was found to have cracked. Total failure of the bridge could have happened at any time. A subsequent review of drone footage from an inspection in 2019 – an inspection of the inspection – revealed that there were signs of damage to the area back then too. Be that as it may, assigning blame to the failure of the girder is kind of pointless. The bridge has been there for 49 years. It could have been a fault in the original metal. It could have been a fault in the welding done creating the girder. It could have been caused somehow by the seismic retrofit of the bridge, which started in 2000 and is ongoing. It could have been caused by normal wear and tear.

    Things fail.

    • #42
  13. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Percival (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):
    The bottom line, though, is that building collapses outside of natural disasters (and we have no evidence of this at the time) are the fault of human beings. It is perfectly reasonable to look at a building collapsing and say “someone messed up”, as much as it is reasonable to say that when we see a car skid off the road it was diver error. Yes, the driver might have had a stroke. That is unlikely.

    Back in May, one of the tie girders on the I-40 Hernando de Soto Bridge was found to have cracked. Total failure of the bridge could have happened at any time. A subsequent review of drone footage from an inspection in 2019 – an inspection of the inspection – revealed that there were signs of damage to the area back then too. Be that as it may, assigning blame to the failure of the girder is kind of pointless. The bridge has been there for 49 years. It could have been a fault in the original metal. It could have been a fault in the welding done creating the girder. It could have been caused somehow by the seismic retrofit of the bridge, which started in 2000 and is ongoing. It could have been caused by normal wear and tear.

    Things fail.

    Yes they do. And all of those things are the part of a human failure. Stating that is not assigning blame.

    • #43
  14. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):
    I have no idea whether sinkholes are common in this particular part of Florida.  If so, I don’t know how common they might be.  I don’t know what it takes to detect sinkholes.  I don’t know who is responsible for checking, as a legal matter.  Is it the city, or the landowner, or someone else?

    I’ve heard that for homeowners – and possibly businesses too – at least in some areas of Florida, insurance is required to include coverage for sinkholes.  Not that the insurance will prevent sinkholes, but they are apparently common enough that it’s considered wrong  – perhaps illegal – to not be insured for the damages/losses that might result.

    • #44
  15. TomRoberts57 Coolidge
    TomRoberts57
    @TomRoberts57

    My rather vague recollection from when I lived in Florida is that sinkholes are an issue that no-one really has an incentive to address properly.

    Much of Florida is basically sand on top of Swiss cheese, and there are probably a very large number of existing buildings built on top of potential sinkholes. While it would be possible to conduct a really thorough geological survey to find which areas are in danger of disappearing into a hole, there is a strong incentive NOT to find out. If you discover that an existing house is built on top of a sinkhole, it would immediately become basically worthless, so there are potentially huge financial losses which someone is going to have to bear.

    Since the chances of any particular building falling into a sinkhole are relatively small – even though the consequences are catastrophic – it seems to be accepted that the occasional disaster is better than a huge financial upheaval which would probably make a lot of lawyers very rich and saddle some property owners / mortgage lenders / builders etc with massive, and rather random losses.

    If this dreadful event in Miami turns out to be due to a sinkhole, it may bring about a big change, but it won’t be pretty to watch. I don’t think there is any very satisfactory answer, other than perhaps the biblical warning not to build a house on sand.

    • #45
  16. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    • #46
  17. Ontheleftcoast Inactive
    Ontheleftcoast
    @Ontheleftcoast

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    ctlaw (View Comment):

    Long term subsidence:

    https://www.flseagrant.org/wp-content/uploads/Increasing-flood-haz._MB-case-study-2016.pdf

    https://faculty.fiu.edu/~swdowins/publications/Fiaschi-Wdowinski-OCM-2020.pdf

    In some locations, as in the eastern part of the city, the detected subsidence is of a 12-story high condominium building (northernmost black circle in Fig. 3A).

    I am not sure what subsidence means? Is this land being washed away?

    That’s one possibility.

    Sinkholes are common where the rock below the land surface is limestone, carbonate rock, salt beds, or rocks that can naturally be dissolved by groundwater circulating through them. As the rock dissolves, spaces and caverns develop underground. Sinkholes are dramatic because the land usually stays intact for a while until the underground spaces just get too big. If there is not enough support for the land above the spaces then a sudden collapse of the land surface can occur. These collapses can be small … or they can be huge and can occur where a house or road is on top.”

    Drawdown of the water table can lead to subsidence above it (don’t know where the underground aquifers are in that part of FL.). Water or sewage leaks.The sea level is rising some. A marine environment can be hard on concrete, especially if seawater is in prolonged contact higher up on the foundation structures  than was planned for when specifying the foundation details. 

    • #47
  18. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Ontheleftcoast (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    ctlaw (View Comment):

    Long term subsidence:

    https://www.flseagrant.org/wp-content/uploads/Increasing-flood-haz._MB-case-study-2016.pdf

    https://faculty.fiu.edu/~swdowins/publications/Fiaschi-Wdowinski-OCM-2020.pdf

    In some locations, as in the eastern part of the city, the detected subsidence is of a 12-story high condominium building (northernmost black circle in Fig. 3A).

    I am not sure what subsidence means? Is this land being washed away?

    That’s one possibility.

    Sinkholes are common where the rock below the land surface is limestone, carbonate rock, salt beds, or rocks that can naturally be dissolved by groundwater circulating through them. As the rock dissolves, spaces and caverns develop underground. Sinkholes are dramatic because the land usually stays intact for a while until the underground spaces just get too big. If there is not enough support for the land above the spaces then a sudden collapse of the land surface can occur. These collapses can be small … or they can be huge and can occur where a house or road is on top.”

    Drawdown of the water table can lead to subsidence above it (don’t know where the underground aquifers are in that part of FL.). Water or sewage leaks.The sea level is rising some. A marine environment can be hard on concrete, especially if seawater is in prolonged contact higher up on the foundation structures than was planned for when specifying the foundation details.

    Thank you

    • #48
  19. Basil Fawlty Member
    Basil Fawlty
    @BasilFawlty

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Kozak (View Comment):

    A pedestrian walkway collapsed in the DC area yesterday.

    Can’t like. This is the future. Corrupt systems that cannot maintain basic needs. Excuses made by the elite, but nothing gets fixed or improved.

    Mayor Bowser announced that the walkway had been damaged by a truck driven by Donald Trump.

    • #49
  20. RushBabe49 Thatcher
    RushBabe49
    @RushBabe49

    Kozak (View Comment):

    A pedestrian walkway collapsed in the DC area yesterday.

    I read that a vehicle had crashed into the supports for the pedestrian bridge, weakening it and contributing to the collapse.

    • #50
  21. Ontheleftcoast Inactive
    Ontheleftcoast
    @Ontheleftcoast

    ctlaw (View Comment):

    Long term subsidence:

    https://www.flseagrant.org/wp-content/uploads/Increasing-flood-haz._MB-case-study-2016.pdf

    https://faculty.fiu.edu/~swdowins/publications/Fiaschi-Wdowinski-OCM-2020.pdf

    In some locations, as in the eastern part of the city, the detected subsidence is of a 12-story high condominium building (northernmost black circle in Fig. 3A).

    Here’s a quote from the Fiaschi paper you linked. Emphasis added:

    Localized subsidence typically occurs in response to shallow subsurface processes as sediment compaction, often in response to groundwater extraction (Amelung et al., 1999; Galloway and Burbey, 2011), and soil settlement in reclaimed areas (e.g., Kim et al., 2008). The rate of localized subsidence can vary over time, depending on the controlling mechanisms. Subsidence rate due to groundwater exploitation is affected by extraction and recharge histories, as well as by the deformation characteristics of the aquifer system. Subsidence rate due to soil settlement in reclaimed areas also varies in time, as the rate of soil compaction decreases over time.

    In other words, if you build on fill, it can compact under your buildings, and if you extract groundwater, the depleted aquifer may prove more compressible than it was before you used it to provide water to your rapidly increasing population.

    My sister lost almost all her possessions when her apartment building collapsed during the Loma Prieta earthquake. It was built on fill and the soil liquefied during the quake. The Scrabble words are thixotropy or thixotropic. I keep hoping that a newly discovered earthquake fault (it happens fairly often, even in well-studied California) gets named It’s Not My.

    • #51
  22. Cow Girl Thatcher
    Cow Girl
    @CowGirl

    Kozak (View Comment):

    A pedestrian walkway collapsed in the DC area yesterday.

    I read that a truck on the road beneath it had run into the support beams causing the collapse. 

    • #52
  23. Paul Stinchfield Member
    Paul Stinchfield
    @PaulStinchfield

    Raxxalan (View Comment):
    I think in Chicago Some work on a canal breached an old tunnel causing flooding and a draining of part of the canal.

    It was a bridge repair project which involved driving new pilings. A piling was driven through a long disused tunnel under the river. The breach caused flooding of basements throughout the Loop. There were no watertight doors in the tunnel network.

    • #53
  24. Ontheleftcoast Inactive
    Ontheleftcoast
    @Ontheleftcoast

    Or, who knows. Does Thomas Friedman get secret info which he lets out in apparent hyperbole but which those in the know can decode? Was Hugo Chavez right about something?

    For example, every week I am following with great interest the writings of Thomas Friedman, the Pulitzer Prize winning weekly columnist for the New York Times—sees Pulitzer Prize winning independent investigative journalist Glenn Greenwald saying about Friedman: “His status among American elites is the single most potent fact for understanding the nation’s imperial decline”—which is why every alarm bell in me went off this week when Friedman published his weekly article on Tuesday entitled “Want to Get Trump Re-elected? Dismantle the Police”, wherein among his usual leftist dribble he buried the warning: “Just beneath the surface calm in America, volcanic forces are gathering that could blow the lid off our democracy…We are living in a fool’s paradise…Enjoy it while it lasts”.

    What made these alarm bells go off inside of me was because while I was reading Friedman’s warning about these “gathering volcanic forces”, I received an urgent message about a NOTAM (Notice To Airmen) alert placing temporary flight restrictions around Gulkana-Alaska where the HAARP (short for High-Frequency Active Auroral Research Program).facility is located, and which reads:

    FDC 1/6022 ZAN AK..AIRSPACE GULKANA, AK..TEMPORARY FLIGHT RESTRICTIONS WI AN AREA DEFINED AS 2.5NM RADIUS OF 622333N1450902W (GKN007016.6) SFC-FL250 FOR ELECTROMAGNETIC RADIATION FR SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH. PURSUANT TO 14 CFR SECTION 91.137 (A)(1) TEMPORARY FLIGHT RESTRICTIONS ARE IN EFFECT. TRANSIT THRU THE AIRSPACE MAY BE AUTH BY HAARP COMMAND CENTER, TEL 907-822-5497 OR FREQ 123.3. ANCHORAGE /ZAN/ ARTCC TEL 907-269-1103 IS THE FAA CDN FACILITY. DLY 0400-1730 2106210400-2106251730

    What makes this NOTAM so alarming is that the US Air Force notified the US Congress it was shutting HAARP down in 2014—was a shutdown preceded by the late Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez declaring that HAARP was a tectonic weapon used to cause the catastrophic earthquake that destroyed Haiti—an accusation that was followed by President Chavez announcing he had cancer, and saw him dying of this disease on 5 March 2013.

    With this NOTAM for HAARP being in force from 21-25 June, and based on my knowledge of what this facility is capable of, I can honestly tell you I wasn’t surprised this morning when I received another urgent message about a small seismic event that occurred in Miami-Florida—an urgent message that was followed by news reports saying that at about 1:20 a.m this early morning in Miami, witnesses reported “suddenly hearing what sounded like a tornado or earthquake”—reports that were soon followed by the news that a luxury multi-story at 8777 Collins Avenue had collapsed—and is a building one block away from where Ivanka Trump and Jared Kushner are leasing a condominium.

    • #54
  25. Raxxalan Member
    Raxxalan
    @Raxxalan

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    Raxxalan (View Comment):
    I think in Chicago Some work on a canal breached an old tunnel causing flooding and a draining of part of the canal.

    It was a bridge repair project which involved driving new pilings. A piling was driven through a long disused tunnel under the river. The breach caused flooding of basements throughout the Loop. There were no watertight doors in the tunnel network.

    Thanks!  I vaguely remembered some of the video from that.  It was pretty dramatic from what I recall a whirlpool in the canal.

    • #55
  26. Raxxalan Member
    Raxxalan
    @Raxxalan

    RufusRJones (View Comment):

    Raxxalan (View Comment):

    RufusRJones (View Comment):
    “Public goods”only. When the government does anything else, it adds negative value.

    I regret I can only like it once. Also I intend to shamelessly steal this line.

    Just to be super clear, people need to Google that term. I wish the Republicans would use it frequently. If we only had public goods produced by the government, and the stupid Federal Reserve stopped pushing the economy around, everybody would be better off and conservatism and libertarianism would actually work and sell.

    I agree completely.  I also think that for normal goods i.e. health care and education the government should be strictly limited to provisioning and restricted from providing.

    • #56
  27. Raxxalan Member
    Raxxalan
    @Raxxalan

    W Bob (View Comment):

    Raxxalan (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    This building collapse is a tragedy.

    According to this report from the Miami Herald, the building was a 12-story, 130-unit condo completed in 1981. There were 55 units in the portion that collapsed. The collapse occurred at around 1:30 am.

    I am perplexed about the assignment of blame for this, both in the OP and in the comments. I don’t think that anyone yet knows the cause of the collapse. Why would anyone jump to a conclusion about the cause, less than 12 hours after this terrible event?

    It is not jumping to conclusions about the cause to say it should not have happened. All I said was that buildings should not fail like this. Something was not done correctly. That includes failing to detect a sinkhole in a city full of sink holes.

    .

    It is possible that at the time that it was built there wasn’t one to be detected. It would be interesting to know what else was going on around there in terms of construction. In Amsterdam when they put in a subway system it broke and displaced a bunch of pylons in the neighboring buildings causing much the same thing. I think in Chicago Some work on a canal breached an old tunnel causing flooding and a draining of part of the canal. Sometimes the problem isn’t with the structure as it was designed but with the unforeseen complications from other things.

    The pilings under this building must have been totally undermined for a sinkhole to have caused this. When they built it presumably the pilings were driven into the ground and the ground must have appeared normal when they did this. The purpose is to further harden and compact the soil under the foundation. If a natural sinkhole could undermine high rise construction pilings like that, that’s really troubling.

    Amsterdam is kind of a unique place essentially it is all on reclaimed land.  If I recall correctly the cement block meant to house the metro sprang a leak which caused water and sand to fill in the sand was leached from between the pylons, centuries old btw, of near by foundations this allowed the pylons to move.  Which dramatically weakened the foundations of nearby buildings.  To the point I think some had to be abandoned.  It is a reminder that some systems are remarkably fragile.  And to my mind a warning that humans often fail to appreciate this until it is too late.

    • #57
  28. philo Member
    philo
    @philo

    I am reminded of the Hyatt Regency Kansas City in 1981.  I suspect the investigation of this one will turn up some interesting failures. But, please do remember, when the finger of blame points to the responsible contractor and it turns out that said contractor had been honored six years running for having the most diverse supplier base, all must be forgiven. 

    Man, it is hard being this cynical…

    • #58
  29. RufusRJones Member
    RufusRJones
    @RufusRJones

     

     

     

     

    • #59
  30. The Cloaked Gaijin Member
    The Cloaked Gaijin
    @TheCloakedGaijin

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    RufusRJones (View Comment):

    thanks for the update

    Sinkholes?

    Forgive me as I am sure that they are still pulling out dead bodies, but I immediately thought of how Congressman Hank Johnson once feared that the island of Guam would tip over if too many military people were stationed there.

    Just recently I was watching a video of a British person doing a reaction video to the date that certain American cities were founded.  He stopped the video and decided to look up the founding date of a few different cities.  The youngest American city he very quickly and randomly found was Miami which was incorporated in 1896 with 444 citizens. Then it grew…

    1920 29,571
    1930 110,637
    1940 172,172
    1950 249,276
    2019 467,963

    Miami Beach was founded later in 1915.  Although Florida has the oldest American city with 1565 St. Augustine outside of places like Puerto Rico, Florida is such a young state.  Cape Coral is the 9th largest city in Florida, and it was founded in 1970.  When Kennedy ran against Nixon in 1960, Florida had the same number of electoral votes as Iowa, Kentucky, or Louisiana.  In 1900, it had the same number of electoral votes as Vermont.

    Of course, a lot of Florida’s amazing growth is due to the fact that it doesn’t have a state income tax.  If Hawaii and Florida switched income tax rates, I think Hawaii would have a lot more electoral votes and people would be trying to build land into the Pacific Ocean to build more stuff.

    I remember Michael Caine saying that he moved to Miami years ago as he noticed on the winter weather maps that there was always this one red spot that never got cold.  “What that place called?”  “That’s Miami.”  “That’s where I want to live.”

    I was trying to look up some place the other day near Miami.  What is that place?  Three towers of apartments or condos on the beach.  Oh, that’s the Trump Towers Sunny Isles Condos…

    Florida has been lucky that it hasn’t elected a Democrat for governor since 1994.  All it would take is for a few Democrats to get elected and a few hurricanes to hit, and Florida could suddenly start going downhill fast.  The Democrats should rename themselves the Hurricane Party, but I think hurricanes cause much less destruction in the long term than Democrats.

    • #60
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