Canary in the Coal Mine, or You Could Be Next

 

After the last attacks on Israel by Hamas, the canards began to escalate against Israelis once more: they stole the land, they abuse the Palestinians—well, the list goes on. In recent months there has also been discussion on this site about whether anti-Semitic attacks in this country are increasing or not, whether the concern was being exaggerated or should be seriously addressed.

I’ve decided to take a different approach to the “Jewish question.” From my perspective, there are three types of attacks on Jews that have a great deal to teach us and serve as a warning: (1) the relevance of the merging of anti-Semitic and anti-Zionist thought in these times; (2) the subtlety of criticisms of Jews, and how Jews are adding credence to these statements, (3) the lessons that need to be learned from the current situation by Jews and non-Jews alike.

*     *     *     *

So many of the arguments denying that anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism are the same are misleading, are lies, or are trying to use current politics to attack both mindsets. I would prefer to use long-standing tropes that try to justify attacking Israel with lies and deceptions as a means to separate out the two ideas.

First, those who deny the connection say that Jews invaded Israel and essentially kicked out the Palestinians. Anyone who has studied Jewish history knows these statements are not true. The Jews have lived in that part of the world for thousands of years, and although their population decreased, they were continuously resident. The Jews repeatedly made efforts to engage the Arabs in the region, but they refused.

Second, People think that Israelis believe that criticism about them is anti-Semitic. The problem arises when the media either ignores the actions of non-Israelis in the country or distorts the information about Israel.

Third, Israel is an apartheid state. This is an illegitimate claim. The term “apartheid” was used to describe South Africa: apartheid dictated where South Africans, on the basis of their race, could live and work, the type of education they could receive, and whether they could vote. None of these restrictions apply to Arabs in Israel. Arabs can live in Israel, have full access to schools (although more needs to be done to improve education for Arabs), live in mixed Israeli and Arab communities, and the Arabs can vote.

Israel has been condemned by the United Nations more than any other nation in the world. When one considers the atrocities and repression committed all over the globe just in recent years, one only needs to look at Syria, Rwanda, Cuba, Myanmar, South Sudan, Congo and Darfur. Let’s not forget China.

There are many other claims about the legitimacy of Israel, and as long as arguments of legitimacy are used as a cudgel, the legitimacy of the anti-Zionist argument becomes moot. It is part and parcel of the anti-Semitic rhetoric

*     *     *     *

The reason I became convinced of the merging of anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism was that a definition of the former is precisely the same for the latter. Bret Stephens (whether you like him as a Conservative or not), in a panel discussion with Bari Weiss (see below), defined anti-Semitism not just as racist (technically, Judaism is not a race), but in this way:

It is a conspiracy theory which holds that Jews are imposters and swindlers. If you look at the 19th century, they were considered to be imposters: they were ‘trying to be’ Germans and French, and they were ‘stealing the wealth’ of those countries”; anti-Zionism is the same.

Contemplate that definition for a moment. The definition held true in Europe, and it holds true today in Israel—and might be emerging in our own country.

*     *     *     *

It’s helpful to remember that many bigotries against Jews were encoded in law in European countries; gradually some restrictions were removed, and Jews appeared to assimilate successfully in almost every country where they lived. But the assimilation was misleading. Jews were repeatedly expelled from countries. Just under the surface, and sometimes even blatantly, Jewish hatred reared its ugly head. Some opportunities were considered unwise to pursue by both Jews and non-Jews, whether in commerce or government; Jews were concerned about being perceived as seeking to live above their station and to rekindle the hatred toward the Jewish community. And then we endeavored to survive the wreckage and destruction of World War II.

Today, only a few people unashamedly publicly attack the Jew. We see these attacks by our own government representatives. Some people are wise enough to do it in the absence of Jewish company. There may be enough people in this country who would speak out against anti-Semitic remarks. The people who are the most tolerant of anti-Semitic rhetoric: the Jews themselves. They have lulled themselves into a sense of safety and wellbeing; after all, it’s not like they wear strange clothes or mumble in Yiddish around their friends. Anti-Semitic jokes can be brushed off or ignored. Jews take off time for the same holidays as everyone else; they eat the same foods as their secular friends. In effect, they are barely Jewish. So when they find themselves in the position of having to defend Jews, or worse yet, Israel, they put on their Progressive hats so they can blend into the crowd. They take pride in the fact that they are no different than anyone else, and as Jews have done through the centuries, they fight for the underdog—the other. One has to ask in all seriousness, who is the underdog in Israel, and how is that defined?

*     *     *     *

So, where do I find myself in this discussion? If it’s possible, I’m more zealous than ever in my support for Jews all over the world, and especially for the state of Israel. I’m not going to make apologies for my stance. I am critical of Israel when it does foolish things, but I will attack the lies, too, like these:

Palestinian land (despite the fact that Israel vacated the territory from which it was subsequently attacked) and wanton violence against Palestinian civilians, particularly children (despite the fact that Israel regularly warned its targets to vacate buildings before targeting them) — can’t help but make me think of ancient libels about Jewish greed and bloodlust.

or vociferously:

For example, when you hear that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza, which it of course manifestly is not, you are abusing that word and trafficking in a classic anti-Semitic trope, suggesting that the Jewish people have a particular kind of bloodlust. Or if you say that Israel or Israeli leaders have hypnotized the world to get them to do their bidding, that again, goes back to an old anti-Semitic trope.

*     *     *     *

If you’re not Jewish, why should you be concerned? Because in this country, it isn’t the Jews who have a bloodlust; it is the Progressive party. And it is against anyone who doesn’t adopt their program and its propaganda. I’m suggesting that the Jews are not the only ones in the sights of Jew-haters; they are just the canary in the coal mine. If you’re Christian, a gun owner, a Conservative, a cop or former military, get ready.

You could be next.

The one-hour panel on The Mainstreaming of Anti-Semitism: How Should We Respond, particularly the first nine minutes

.

Published in Foreign Policy
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  1. Steven Seward Member
    Steven Seward
    @StevenSeward

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    Here is a link to the Jewish Virtual Library’s entry about the population of Israel/Palestine. The highlights are:

    • 1918: 8.1% Jewish — 60,000 Jews; 600,000 others
    • 1947: 32.0% Jewish — 630,000 Jews; 1,324,000 others
    • 1948: 82.1% Jewish — 716,700 Jews; 156,000 others
    • 1955: 88.9% Jewish — 1,590,500 Jews; 198,500 others

    That’s quite a transformation over a mere 37 years. Less than 10% Jewish to almost 90% Jewish. Note that over 1 million non-Jews disappeared from the region between 1947 and 1948.

    The vast majority of these people who disappeared between 1947 and 1948 were Arabs who joined forces with the armies of Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, and Iraq, to fight against the Jews.  They were not allowed to re-enter the country after the war. Do you feel this was unjust?

    Also note that the Jewish population increased by almost 1 million in just 8 years, between 1947 and 1955. Almost all of that was immigration. Using the information from the Jewish Virtual Library (here), immigration in these years was (rounded to the nearest thousand):

    • 1948: 102,000
    • 1949: 240,000
    • 1950: 171,000
    • 1951: 175,000
    • 1952: 25,000
    • 1953: 12,000
    • 1954: 18,000

    That’s a total of about 750,000 immigrants, in just 7 years. The 1947 report of the UN (here — in paragraphs 15 and 16) state that:

    • “The great increase in the Jewish population is due in the main to immigration.”
    • Jewish immigration was 376,000 between 1920 and 1946.
    • “The Arab population has increased almost entirely as a result of an excess of births over deaths.”

    And what is wrong with Jewish immigration?  It is entirely peaceful. I’m not even sure what your point is dwelling on this so much.  Besides, the surrounding Arab countries forcibly kicked out almost their entire Jewish populations after the 1948 war.  Where did you expect 750,000 Jewish refugees to go?

    To sum up: The region was over 90% non-Jewish in 1918. By 1955, 1.1 million Jews moved in. By 1955 — mostly in the single war year — 1.1 million non-Jews left. The region was almost 90% Jewish in 1955.

    I think that given these facts, it’s pretty fair to say that the Jewish folks moved in and kicked out the Palestinians. Yeah, there were a handful of Jews at the outset, and a handful of non-Jews at the end, but the demographics of the region was fundamentally transformed.

    I take exception to your assertion that the Palestinians were “kicked out.”  They left on their own accord to take up arms against Israel.  You seem to be trying to show that pure demographic numbers can demonstrate nefarious actions by Israel.  However, numbers by themselves are meaningless without giving the reasons why those numbers have changed.

    • #61
  2. Steven Seward Member
    Steven Seward
    @StevenSeward

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    I have a question unrelated to my prior comment, about the “canary in a coal mine” analogy.

    Does anyone know of any historic examples of this? If this hypothesis is true, then various pogroms or persecutions of Jews, over the centuries, should be followed by persecutions of other groups. Has this happened? I don’t know much about this history, in specific details.

    I did briefly look into the issue with respect to Spain. The Jews were ejected from Spain in 1492, apparently about 200,000 of them. Was there any other expulsion of people immediately afterward?

    I found a report of an expulsion of the Muslims/Moors from Spain, apparently involving several hundred thousand people. It occurred around 1610. If that’s a “canary in a coal mine” situation, then the reaction is extraordinarily delayed — over a century.

    I don’t write this to suggest that mistreatment of Jewish folks is OK. It’s not. I’m just looking for empirical evidence regarding the validity of the “canary in a coal mine” argument.

    The most glaringly obvious example of the canary in the coal mine is World War II.  The canaries were the retarded and disabled people of Germany – the most vulnerable segment of the population that would be missed the least.  The Jews were second in line.  Following the Jews came (the order of which I am uncertain) Gypsies, non-Jewish Poles, Homosexuals, Serbs, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and Russian prisoners.  The Nazis only got through a small portion of the “inferior races” in the four years they had to operate, but Hitler had a particular dislike for Slavs, and surely would have carried out an even more massive extermination if he could have conquered Russia.  Blacks would have eventually been on the list, but the Krauts were too busy dealing with Europe, the Russkies, and the Yankees.

    • #62
  3. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    I have a question unrelated to my prior comment, about the “canary in a coal mine” analogy.

    Does anyone know of any historic examples of this? If this hypothesis is true, then various pogroms or persecutions of Jews, over the centuries, should be followed by persecutions of other groups. Has this happened? I don’t know much about this history, in specific details.

    I did briefly look into the issue with respect to Spain. The Jews were ejected from Spain in 1492, apparently about 200,000 of them. Was there any other expulsion of people immediately afterward?

    I found a report of an expulsion of the Muslims/Moors from Spain, apparently involving several hundred thousand people. It occurred around 1610. If that’s a “canary in a coal mine” situation, then the reaction is extraordinarily delayed — over a century.

    I don’t write this to suggest that mistreatment of Jewish folks is OK. It’s not. I’m just looking for empirical evidence regarding the validity of the “canary in a coal mine” argument.

    The most glaringly obvious example of the canary in the coal mine is World War II. The canaries were the retarded and disabled people of Germany – the most vulnerable segment of the population that would be missed the least. The Jews were second in line. Following the Jews came (the order of which I am uncertain) Gypsies, non-Jewish Poles, Homosexuals, Serbs, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and Russian prisoners. The Nazis only got through a small portion of the “inferior races” in the four years they had to operate, but Hitler had a particular dislike for Slavs, and surely would have carried out an even more massive extermination if he could have conquered Russia. Blacks would have eventually been on the list, but the Krauts were too busy dealing with Europe, the Russkies, and the Yankees.

    The point may be that Jews weren’t really “special” they were just higher on the list.

    • #63
  4. Steven Seward Member
    Steven Seward
    @StevenSeward

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    I have a question unrelated to my prior comment, about the “canary in a coal mine” analogy.

    Does anyone know of any historic examples of this? If this hypothesis is true, then various pogroms or persecutions of Jews, over the centuries, should be followed by persecutions of other groups. Has this happened? I don’t know much about this history, in specific details.

    I did briefly look into the issue with respect to Spain. The Jews were ejected from Spain in 1492, apparently about 200,000 of them. Was there any other expulsion of people immediately afterward?

    I found a report of an expulsion of the Muslims/Moors from Spain, apparently involving several hundred thousand people. It occurred around 1610. If that’s a “canary in a coal mine” situation, then the reaction is extraordinarily delayed — over a century.

    I don’t write this to suggest that mistreatment of Jewish folks is OK. It’s not. I’m just looking for empirical evidence regarding the validity of the “canary in a coal mine” argument.

    The most glaringly obvious example of the canary in the coal mine is World War II. The canaries were the retarded and disabled people of Germany – the most vulnerable segment of the population that would be missed the least. The Jews were second in line. Following the Jews came (the order of which I am uncertain) Gypsies, non-Jewish Poles, Homosexuals, Serbs, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and Russian prisoners. The Nazis only got through a small portion of the “inferior races” in the four years they had to operate, but Hitler had a particular dislike for Slavs, and surely would have carried out an even more massive extermination if he could have conquered Russia. Blacks would have eventually been on the list, but the Krauts were too busy dealing with Europe, the Russkies, and the Yankees.

    The point may be that Jews weren’t really “special” they were just higher on the list.

    They were still pretty high on the list.  Hitler spent many years denouncing them and persecuting them before the “final solution.” He went out of his way to find them in the surrounding countries.

    • #64
  5. Gary McVey Contributor
    Gary McVey
    @GaryMcVey

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    I have a question unrelated to my prior comment, about the “canary in a coal mine” analogy.

    Does anyone know of any historic examples of this? If this hypothesis is true, then various pogroms or persecutions of Jews, over the centuries, should be followed by persecutions of other groups. Has this happened? I don’t know much about this history, in specific details.

    I did briefly look into the issue with respect to Spain. The Jews were ejected from Spain in 1492, apparently about 200,000 of them. Was there any other expulsion of people immediately afterward?

    I found a report of an expulsion of the Muslims/Moors from Spain, apparently involving several hundred thousand people. It occurred around 1610. If that’s a “canary in a coal mine” situation, then the reaction is extraordinarily delayed — over a century.

    I don’t write this to suggest that mistreatment of Jewish folks is OK. It’s not. I’m just looking for empirical evidence regarding the validity of the “canary in a coal mine” argument.

    The most glaringly obvious example of the canary in the coal mine is World War II. The canaries were the retarded and disabled people of Germany – the most vulnerable segment of the population that would be missed the least. The Jews were second in line. Following the Jews came (the order of which I am uncertain) Gypsies, non-Jewish Poles, Homosexuals, Serbs, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and Russian prisoners. The Nazis only got through a small portion of the “inferior races” in the four years they had to operate, but Hitler had a particular dislike for Slavs, and surely would have carried out an even more massive extermination if he could have conquered Russia. Blacks would have eventually been on the list, but the Krauts were too busy dealing with Europe, the Russkies, and the Yankees.

    The point may be that Jews weren’t really “special” they were just higher on the list.

    They were still pretty high on the list. Hitler spent many years denouncing them and persecuting them before the “final solution.” He went out of his way to find them in the surrounding countries.

    IIRC, in 2019 Andrew Nagorski published a book about 1941, The Year Germany Lost the War. His premise is solid and he defends it well: Hitler made three huge unforced errors, gambles that eventually cost him everything: attacking the USSR on June 22, expecting to have conquered it before winter set in; declaring war on the USA in accordance with a Nazi treaty with Japan, laughably legalistic on the part of someone who’d already broken countless deals; and opening the third war front, the internal one of stepping up full scale warfare against Europe’s Jews. Of course Nagorski doesn’t ignore the human and moral outrage of what happened; but he’s coldly accurate in assessing what a strategic mistake it was to tie up troops, police, and truck and rail transportation all across the occupied zone, moving millions of prisoners at the moment he should have been moving millions of troops. That’s blind obsession; obsession with the Jews. So far as we know, Hitler never considered his other targets for extermination as being potential world manipulators like, well, you-know-who. 

    • #65
  6. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Steven Seward (View Comment):
    Besides, the surrounding Arab countries forcibly kicked out almost their entire Jewish populations after the 1948 war.  Where did you expect 750,000 Jewish refugees to go?

    From wiki:

    The Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries, or Jewish exodus from Arab countries, was the departure, flight, expulsion, evacuation and migration of 850,000 Jews, primarily of Sephardi and Mizrahi background, from Arab countries and the Muslim world, mainly from 1948 to the early 1970s…

    A number of small-scale Jewish exoduses began in many Middle Eastern countries early in the 20th century with the only substantial aliyah…coming from Yemen and Syria. Few Jews from Muslim countries immigrated during the period of Mandatory Palestine. Prior to the creation of Israel in 1948, approximately 800,000 Jews were living in lands that now make up the Arab world….

    The first large-scale exoduses took place in the late 1940s and early 1950s, primarily from Iraq, Yemen and Libya. In these cases over 90% of the Jewish population left, despite the necessity of leaving their property behind. Two hundred and sixty thousand Jews from Arab countries immigrated to Israel between 1948 and 1951, accounting for 56% of the total immigration…

    Later waves peaked at different times in different regions over the subsequent decades. The peak of the exodus from Egypt occurred in 1956 following the Suez Crisis. The exodus from the other North African Arab countries peaked in the 1960s. Lebanon was the only Arab country to see a temporary increase in its Jewish population during this period, due to an influx of Jews from other Arab countries, although by the mid-1970s the Jewish community of Lebanon had also dwindled. Six hundred thousand Jews from Arab and Muslim countries had reached Israel by 1972. In total, of the 900,000 Jews who left Arab and other Muslim countries, 600,000 settled in the new state of Israel, and 300,000 migrated to France and the United States…In 2009, only 26,000 Jews remained in Arab countries and Iran, and 26,000 in Turkey.

    The reasons for the exoduses are manifold, including push factors, such as persecution, antisemitism, political instability, poverty and expulsion, together with pull factors, such as the desire to fulfill Zionist yearnings or find a better economic status and a secure home in Europe or the Americas. The history of the exodus has been politicized, given its proposed relevance to the historical narrative of the Arab–Israeli conflict. When presenting the history, those who view the Jewish exodus as analogous to the 1948 Palestinian exodus generally emphasize the push factors and consider those who left as refugees, while those who do not, emphasize the pull factors and consider them willing immigrants.

    • #66
  7. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Steven Seward (View Comment):
    The vast majority of these people who disappeared between 1947 and 1948 were Arabs who joined forces with the armies of Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, and Iraq, to fight against the Jews.

    That’s quite disputed, for example by Ilan Pappe in The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine.  From a review in The Guardian:

    Pappe…identifies that March meeting as the start of a campaign of “ethnic cleansing” …For him it was the result of a Zionist ideology whose “wordless wish” was for the Palestinians to disappear to make way for the Jewish state. Israel’s “war of independence” or “liberation” was the Palestinians’ nakba – “catastrophe”.

    …his clear view is that the expulsion and dispossession of the Palestinians was a grand design, not the partially planned and locally varied phenomenon – tragic but inevitable in the circumstances – that Morris painstakingly reconstructed from the Israeli archives 20 years ago.

    …Plan Dalet, has been known about for years. It has long been clear that the Palestinians were not, as used to be claimed, encouraged to leave their homes “temporarily” by Arab leaders. The fledgling Israeli state was not invaded, as the old David and Goliath narrative goes, by five Arab armies. Egypt attacked in the south and Jordanian and Iraqi troops entered the territory allotted to the Palestinians by the UN. Ethnic cleansing in Palestine is Israel’s “original sin” laid bare – but without any mitigating circumstances. Rare exceptions in a catalogue of intimidation, expulsion and atrocity include the Jewish mayor of Haifa appealing to the city’s Arabs to stay, despite attacks by Haganah forces. Nazareth’s Christian Arabs were spared because Ben-Gurion realised that the outside world would not tolerate their removal.

    …But he does historical understanding a disservice by all but ignoring the mood and motives of the Jews, so soon after the end of a war in which six million had been exterminated…Ben-Gurion’s public rhetoric about the dangers of annihilation or a second Holocaust, Pappe argues, was matched by private confidence about the outcome of an unequal fight. That does not mean the shadow of the Holocaust can be airbrushed out of the story. The Jews were fighting, as they saw it, with their backs to the wall, for survival. To ignore that perception – a huge factor in western sympathy for Israel in 1948 and for so long afterwards – is to misrepresent reality.

    So there’s that.

    They were not allowed to re-enter the country after the war. Do you feel this was unjust?

    The Geneva Conventions would say that refusing to allow refugees to return to their homes is not only unjust but a war crime.  The ICRC helpfully summarises:

    …The right to return applies to those who have been displaced, voluntarily or involuntarily, on account of the conflict…The Fourth Geneva Convention provides that persons who have been evacuated must be transferred back to their homes as soon as hostilities in the area in question have ceased….

    • #67
  8. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    You folks were busy last night while I slept! So here are my responses and observations:

    No, @zafar, I don’t think you are an anti-Semite. I think you are the exception who proves the rule. Let me explain my conclusion. First, you have always been polite in our discussions; if anyone has been rude, it’s been me. But I also decided a long time ago that I would limit my debates with you because, although your arguments are cogent and data-based, we work from completely different approaches and sources for the questions. As you know, I usually ask that we end a particular discussion, and you always politely comply. More often than not, we don’t reach agreement, but we are always thoughtful in our debates.

    Another reason is because you have proven over and over that you respect me as a person. You have always been supportive in those times where I’ve had posts reflecting personal struggles or celebrations. You often comment and “like” things I’ve written. In other words, I believe we have a trusting relationship, and I think we have both worked hard to earn it. You didn’t even cross my mind when I wrote my post. I can see why you took it personally and I’m sorry. 

    So for those of you who debate Zafar, be advised that he is smart and backs up his arguments. You are welcome to debate him on this thread, but I will bow out. (I’m not feeling well today, so that is partly my excuse.) As always, I will closely follow the thread.

     

    • #68
  9. Front Seat Cat Member
    Front Seat Cat
    @FrontSeatCat

    It’s always been confusing to me when you say technically being Jewish is not a race. I can see that in some respects, as many who were not born Jewish, but convert, the same as Muslim, Christian, etc. But for the sake of understanding, it does become revealed in DNA tests if someone is of Jewish heritage, and I think it is considered a race to be checked off on applications where they ask that question.  In the Bible (Old Testament), the land of Israel is given to the Jews by God – it’s spelled out. There is more there than just a religious practice, but includes a lineage, and when the Jews were scattered across the world (as the Bible also states), Israel still belonged to the Jews.  God made a covenant with Abraham, and even the space is mapped out in cubits. A covenant is a concrete promise that cannot be broken, and who wants to argue with God?

    The world came together in 1947 and declared that the Jews should have their homeland. Why did they pick Israel and not Cypress, or somewhere in Argentina? Because the archeological history and documented recordings going back four thousand years points specifically to Israel. It seems a non-argument. Susan is right when she says that many (presidents and leaders) have come and gone offering to work it out with the Palestinians, but nothing was ever good enough. They came close, but Arafat always walked away. Because they don’t want peace and have stated so.

    On another note – a question to Susan: Why are so many Jews not politically in support of their heritage and homeland, but tend to be very liberal and non-practicing? It seems the same for Christians who are very liberal and non-practicing – it seems to lead eventually down a rabbit hole. You may have worldly success, but its hollow and opens you up to all kinds of trouble.

    Jews have been very successful and I think it is because of all they have suffered, and they believe that through service, the world will leave them alone, which it never does. God states in many parts of the Bible that Israel is the apple of His eye, His chosen people. That in no way implies that they are above others, but it is through the Jews that He has communicated – His manual for mankind and although we have free will, if we choose wrongly, there are consequences. It is a burden on the Jews, but they are the mirror to the world.  As a Christian, we believe God chose to become human through the Jewish lineage and reveal Himself again. 

    As @unsk said, “first they came for the Jews”……is the whole nutshell and the world is burning while we fiddle.

    • #69
  10. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    Front Seat Cat (View Comment):
    It’s always been confusing to me when you say technically being Jewish is not a race.

    Thanks for your thoughtful comment, FSC. I think you are confusing ethnicity with race. Jews are all over the world, of every race, so they don’t necessarily have race in common. I think part of the confusion comes from the way we have distorted the meaning of race in recent years.

    Front Seat Cat (View Comment):
    On another note – a question to Susan: Why are so many Jews not politically in support of their heritage and homeland, but tend to be very liberal and non-practicing? It seems the same for Christians who are very liberal and non-practicing – it seems to lead eventually down a rabbit hole. You may have worldly success, but its hollow and opens you up to all kinds of trouble.

    A couple of things. First, Jews have almost always been politically active to help the underdog. Although it’s not necessarily true, the Democrats have supposedly spoken for the underdog. With the inroads of Progressivism and FDR, then the Great Society–well, that’s the direction they went. Meanwhile, many Jews (including me) didn’t connect with the spirit part of Judaism, and found the rules oppressive. And I think with that went the appreciation of morality and ethics. Plus the increase in intermarriage and the desire to assimilate. You’ll find that many–not all–Orthodox Jews are Conservative, because they see the link between their faith and everyday life. 

    There are Jews who are returning to Orthodoxy–I’ve certainly started to practice more in a very limited way–but without a sincere commitment to faith and G-d, it’s tough. Thanks for asking.

    • #70
  11. Front Seat Cat Member
    Front Seat Cat
    @FrontSeatCat

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    Front Seat Cat (View Comment):
    It’s always been confusing to me when you say technically being Jewish is not a race.

    Thanks for your thoughtful comment, FSC. I think you are confusing ethnicity with race. Jews are all over the world, of every race, so they don’t necessarily have race in common. I think part of the confusion comes from the way we have distorted the meaning of race in recent years.

    Front Seat Cat (View Comment):
    On another note – a question to Susan: Why are so many Jews not politically in support of their heritage and homeland, but tend to be very liberal and non-practicing? It seems the same for Christians who are very liberal and non-practicing – it seems to lead eventually down a rabbit hole. You may have worldly success, but its hollow and opens you up to all kinds of trouble.

    A couple of things. First, Jews have almost always been politically active to help the underdog. Although it’s not necessarily true, the Democrats have supposedly spoken for the underdog. With the inroads of Progressivism and FDR, then the Great Society–well, that’s the direction they went. Meanwhile, many Jews (including me) didn’t connect with the spirit part of Judaism, and found the rules oppressive. And I think with that went the appreciation of morality and ethics. Plus the increase in intermarriage and the desire to assimilate. You’ll find that many–not all–Orthodox Jews are Conservative, because they see the link between their faith and everyday life.

    There are Jews who are returning to Orthodoxy–I’ve certainly started to practice more in a very limited way–but without a sincere commitment to faith and G-d, it’s tough. Thanks for asking.

    Good points – yes, on different forms they specify race/ethnicity – that would be different. I can’t recall where else that would apply?  We know that without a sincere commitment to faith and God, it opens the door to so much – not in a good way. Men’s hearts have grown cold.

    • #71
  12. Ontheleftcoast Inactive
    Ontheleftcoast
    @Ontheleftcoast

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    Here is a link to the Jewish Virtual Library’s entry about the population of Israel/Palestine.  The highlights are:

    • 1918:  8.1% Jewish — 60,000 Jews; 600,000 others
    • 1947: 32.0% Jewish — 630,000 Jews; 1,324,000 others
    • 1948: 82.1% Jewish — 716,700 Jews; 156,000 others
    • 1955: 88.9% Jewish — 1,590,500 Jews; 198,500 others

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    I have a question unrelated to my prior comment, about the “canary in a coal mine” analogy.

    Does anyone know of any historic examples of this? If this hypothesis is true, then various pogroms or persecutions of Jews, over the centuries, should be followed by persecutions of other groups. Has this happened? I don’t know much about this history, in specific details.

    I did briefly look into the issue with respect to Spain. The Jews were ejected from Spain in 1492, apparently about 200,000 of them. Was there any other expulsion of people immediately afterward?

    I found a report of an expulsion of the Muslims/Moors from Spain, apparently involving several hundred thousand people. It occurred around 1610. If that’s a “canary in a coal mine” situation, then the reaction is extraordinarily delayed — over a century.

    I don’t write this to suggest that mistreatment of Jewish folks is OK. It’s not. I’m just looking for empirical evidence regarding the validity of the “canary in a coal mine” argument.

    Zafar (View Comment):

    The Spanish Inquisition started in 1478 and ran for three centuries. Another expression of the drive for homogeneity (and therefore bad for the ‘different’).

    The Moriscos who were expelled were the converted descendants of the Muslim Moors (who had been driven out of Spain much earlier, except for Granada which was [re]conquered in 1492).

    Yes, in the case of Spain, it was first the crypto-Saturday people and then the crypto-Friday people. Both Jews and Muslims tend to focus on the ones who were expelled from the Iberian peninsula and kept, or regained, their connections to their ancestral religions. Particularly in remote areas of Spain, the presence of people of Converso (converted descendants of Jews) families who transmitted some knowledge of Jewish origins and vestigial practices; a full Jewish communal life was not possible under the Inquisition.  I would be very surprised if the same were not true for those of Morisco descent. 

    That said, history suggests that a large number of the conversions were successful and led, a few generations later, to normative Catholic practice. Don’t forget that many of the pagan, Zoroastrian, and Jewish inhabitants of the Mediterranean basin converted to Christianity, and that many of their descendants then converted to Islam. In addition to more civilized missionary activity, both Christianity and Islam for many years used a carrot and sword approach to proselytization.

    • #72
  13. Ontheleftcoast Inactive
    Ontheleftcoast
    @Ontheleftcoast

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    Susan Quinn: First, those who deny the connection say that Jews invaded Israel and essentially kicked out the Palestinians. Anyone who has studied Jewish history knows these statements are not true. The Jews have lived in that part of the world for thousands of years, and although their population decreased, they were continuously resident. The Jews repeatedly made efforts to engage the Arabs in the region, but they refused.

    Susan, I don’t agree with your interpretation here. I think that the “invasion” argument is a bit over-the-top rhetorically on the pro-Palestinian side, but I also don’t think that it’s proper to dismiss the Palestinian objection.

    Here is a link to the Jewish Virtual Library’s entry about the population of Israel/Palestine. The highlights are:

    • 1918: 8.1% Jewish — 60,000 Jews; 600,000 others
    • 1947: 32.0% Jewish — 630,000 Jews; 1,324,000 others
    • 1948: 82.1% Jewish — 716,700 Jews; 156,000 others
    • 1955: 88.9% Jewish — 1,590,500 Jews; 198,500 others

    That’s quite a transformation over a mere 37 years. Less than 10% Jewish to almost 90% Jewish. Note that over 1 million non-Jews disappeared from the region between 1947 and 1948.

    Also note that the Jewish population increased by almost 1 million in just 8 years, between 1947 and 1955. Almost all of that was immigration. Using the information from the Jewish Virtual Library (here), immigration in these years was (rounded to the nearest thousand):

    • 1948: 102,000
    • 1949: 240,000
    • 1950: 171,000
    • 1951: 175,000
    • 1952: 25,000
    • 1953: 12,000
    • 1954: 18,000

    That’s a total of about 750,000 immigrants, in just 7 years. The 1947 report of the UN (here — in paragraphs 15 and 16) state that:

    • “The great increase in the Jewish population is due in the main to immigration.”
    • Jewish immigration was 376,000 between 1920 and 1946.
    • “The Arab population has increased almost entirely as a result of an excess of births over deaths.”

    To sum up: The region was over 90% non-Jewish in 1918. By 1955, 1.1 million Jews moved in. By 1955 — mostly in the single war year — 1.1 million non-Jews left. The region was almost 90% Jewish in 1955.

    I think that given these facts, it’s pretty fair to say that the Jewish folks moved in and kicked out the Palestinians. Yeah, there were a handful of Jews at the outset, and a handful of non-Jews at the end, but the demographics of the region was fundamentally transformed.

    The population data is more complicated than that, due in part to the difficulty of correlating modern datasets with Ottoman and Mandatory borders. 

    That aside, it’s pretty fair to say that there was a substantial population exchange between the Muslim world and Israel beginning in 1948. Of that 1.1 million Jewish immigrants a majority were from the Arab world; they left substantial assets behind as they fled for their lives.

    • #73
  14. JoshuaFinch Coolidge
    JoshuaFinch
    @JoshuaFinch

     

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):
    I think you are confusing ethnicity with race. Jews are all over the world, of every race, so they don’t necessarily have race in common.

    There are three races:

    mongoloid (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/chinese-kaifeng-jews-seek-new-lives-israel-n527876), 

    negroid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pnina_Tamano-Shata)                

    and caucasoid.

    Jews are members of each.

     

     

    • #74
  15. Ontheleftcoast Inactive
    Ontheleftcoast
    @Ontheleftcoast

    Zafar (View Comment):
    That’s quite disputed, for example by Ilan Pappe in The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine.  From a review in The Guardian:

    In a New Republic article covering that and two other Ilan Pappe works, historian Benny Morris led off like this:

    At best, Ilan Pappe must be one of the world’s sloppiest historians; at worst, one of the most dishonest. In truth, he probably merits a place somewhere between the two.

    Morris provides a number of detailed examples. After laying out evidence for them he draws his conclusions. Such as:

    Such distortions, large and small, characterize almost every page of The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine. So I should add, to make the historical context perfectly clear, that no gas was ever used in the war of 1948 by any of the participants. Pappe never tells the reader this. Raising the subject of gas is historical irrelevance. But the paragraph will dangle in the reader’s imagination as a dark possibility, or worse, a dark reality: the Jews, gassed by the Nazis three years before, were about to gas, or were gassing, Arabs. I note also, for accuracy’s sake, that, apart from the 1917 battle for Gaza in World War I, the only people in the Middle East who have used poison gas against their enemies in the past century have been Arabs—the Egyptians in Yemen in the 1960s, the Iraqis in Kurdistan in the 1980s. So there can be no escaping the conclusion that Pappe introduced the subject, and perverted the text, for one purpose only: to blacken the image of Israel and its leaders in 1948. This is also among the purposes of The Rise and Fall of a Palestinian Dynasty and Out of the Frame.

    Morris also calls Pappe out for failing to utilize available primary sources. And:

    To the deliberate slanting of history Pappe adds a profound ignorance of basic facts. Together these sins and deficiencies render his “histories” worthless as representations of the past, though they are important as documents in the current political and historiographic disputations about the Arab-Israeli conflict. Pappe’s grasp of the facts of World War I, for example, is weak in the extreme. He writes that the “Ottoman entry into the war was triggered by an incident in the Black Sea in December 1914.” In fact, the Ottoman Empire joined World War I with Russia’s declaration of war on Constantinople on November 1, following the bombardment of Sevastopol on October 29 by the Turkish cruiser “Yavuz Sultan Selim,” which was really the German cruiser Goeben manned by fez-wearing German sailors. Pappe tells us that Hajj Amin was commissioned as an officer in the Ottoman 46th division, at first serving as “assistant division commander to the governor of Smyrna,” thereby betraying his ignorance of the relevant Ottoman administrative and military structures (lieutenants are not “assistant division commanders”).

     

    • #75
  16. Ontheleftcoast Inactive
    Ontheleftcoast
    @Ontheleftcoast

    Zafar (View Comment):
    That’s quite disputed, for example by Ilan Pappe in The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine.  From a review in The Guardian:

    In a New Republic article covering that and two other Ilan Pappe works, historian Benny Morris led off like this:

    At best, Ilan Pappe must be one of the world’s sloppiest historians; at worst, one of the most dishonest. In truth, he probably merits a place somewhere between the two.

    Morris provides a number of detailed examples. After laying out evidence for them he draws his conclusions. Such as:

    Such distortions, large and small, characterize almost every page of The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine. So I should add, to make the historical context perfectly clear, that no gas was ever used in the war of 1948 by any of the participants. Pappe never tells the reader this. Raising the subject of gas is historical irrelevance. But the paragraph will dangle in the reader’s imagination as a dark possibility, or worse, a dark reality: the Jews, gassed by the Nazis three years before, were about to gas, or were gassing, Arabs. I note also, for accuracy’s sake, that, apart from the 1917 battle for Gaza in World War I, the only people in the Middle East who have used poison gas against their enemies in the past century have been Arabs—the Egyptians in Yemen in the 1960s, the Iraqis in Kurdistan in the 1980s. So there can be no escaping the conclusion that Pappe introduced the subject, and perverted the text, for one purpose only: to blacken the image of Israel and its leaders in 1948. This is also among the purposes of The Rise and Fall of a Palestinian Dynasty and Out of the Frame.

    Morris also calls Pappe out for failing to utilize available primary sources. And:

    To the deliberate slanting of history Pappe adds a profound ignorance of basic facts. Together these sins and deficiencies render his “histories” worthless as representations of the past, though they are important as documents in the current political and historiographic disputations about the Arab-Israeli conflict. Pappe’s grasp of the facts of World War I, for example, is weak in the extreme. He writes that the “Ottoman entry into the war was triggered by an incident in the Black Sea in December 1914.” In fact, the Ottoman Empire joined World War I with Russia’s declaration of war on Constantinople on November 1, following the bombardment of Sevastopol on October 29 by the Turkish cruiser “Yavuz Sultan Selim,” which was really the German cruiser Goeben manned by fez-wearing German sailors. Pappe tells us that Hajj Amin was commissioned as an officer in the Ottoman 46th division, at first serving as “assistant division commander to the governor of Smyrna,” thereby betraying his ignorance of the relevant Ottoman administrative and military structures (lieutenants are not “assistant division commanders”).

     

    • #76
  17. Steven Seward Member
    Steven Seward
    @StevenSeward

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):
    The vast majority of these people who disappeared between 1947 and 1948 were Arabs who joined forces with the armies of Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, and Iraq, to fight against the Jews.

    That’s quite disputed, for example by Ilan Pappe in The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine. From a review in The Guardian:

    I’m not very familiar with details of the Arab exodus from Israel during the 1948 war enough to comment on Pappe’s writings, though Ontheleftcoast provided a rebuttal.  I do know that the Arabs that stayed in Israel were treated as equal Israeli citizens, in fact more equal, because they are exempted from the mandatory 2-year military service that all Jewish Israelis are subject to.

    So there’s that.

    They were not allowed to re-enter the country after the war. Do you feel this was unjust?

    The Geneva Conventions would say that refusing to allow refugees to return to their homes is not only unjust but a war crime. The ICRC helpfully summarises:

    …The right to return applies to those who have been displaced, voluntarily or involuntarily, on account of the conflict…The Fourth Geneva Convention provides that persons who have been evacuated must be transferred back to their homes as soon as hostilities in the area in question have ceased….

    That may be so in the Geneva Convention, but I think they are talking about refugees, not actual military combatants.  It is contended by Israel that the Arabs who left, did so to join the armies of the countries trying to destroy Israel, with the promise of great spoils in victory.  If they were allowed back into Israel I would think they could be charged as traitors, who would be executed by most countries.  We have recent examples in the U.S.  Scores of Americans have been captured abroad while fighting with terrorist forces against the U.S.  The most famous one was probably John Walker Lindh, the so-called American Taliban.  He was released a couple years ago after serving 17 years of a twenty-year sentence.

    • #77
  18. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Deleted

    • #78
  19. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Deleted

    Dang.

    • #79
  20. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Deleted

    Dang.

    Okay.

    Screenshot (381).png
    Right-wing disinformation in the guise of satire
    courtesy of The Babylon Bee

    • #80
  21. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Oh I thought it was something new.  :-)

    • #81
  22. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    @susanquinn – that’s one of the nicest things that anyone has said to me. Thank you, and I will endeavour to live up to it.

     

    • #82
  23. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Ontheleftcoast (View Comment):

    In a New Republic article covering that and two other Ilan Pappe works, historian Benny Morris led off like this:

    At best, Ilan Pappe must be one of the world’s sloppiest historians; at worst, one of the most dishonest. In truth, he probably merits a place somewhere between the two.

    Morris provides a number of detailed examples. After laying out evidence for them he draws his conclusions.

    About Ilan Pappe, perhaps. 

    About ethnic cleansing in Palestine? He also thinks it took place, though he doesn’t disapprove. 

    Baruch Kimmerling, of Hebrew University, has written a piece on Morris, from which:

    [Morris’] book indeed touched a very central and painful nerve of the Israeli-Jewish current past, the uprooting of about 700,000 Arab Palestinians from the territories that would become the Jewish state, the refusal to allow them back to homes after the war, and the formation of the refugee problem during the period of the 1948 war and after. He also surveyed some atrocities committed by Jews during the inter-communal war that played some role in the “voluntary” flight of the Arabs from their villages and neighborhoods.

    Additionally:

    “What the new material shows [– says Morris –] is that there were far more Israeli acts of massacre than I had previously thought. To my surprise, there were also many cases of rape.” After some detailed description of the rape and murder of Palestinian girls, Morris concluded that “because neither the victims nor the rapists liked to report these events, we have to assume that the dozen cases of rape that were reported, which I found, are not the whole story. They are just the tip of the iceberg.” Additionally he found that in twenty-four cases, about 800 Palestinians were massacred under different circumstances. And he added:

    “That can’t be accidental. It’s a pattern. Apparently, various officers who took part in the operation understood that the expulsion order they received permitted them to do these deeds in order to encourage the population to take to the roads. The fact is that no one was punished for these acts of murder. Ben-Gurion silenced the matter. He covered up for the officers who did the massacres….

    “Under some circumstances expulsion is not a war crime. I don’t think that the expulsions of 1948 were war crimes. You can’t make an omelet without breaking eggs. You have to dirty your hands…

    …if he [Ben Gurion] was already engaged in expulsion, maybe he should have done a complete job. I know that this stuns the Arabs and the liberals and the politically correct types. But my feeling is that this place would be quieter and know less suffering if the matter had been resolved once and for all. If Ben-Gurion had carried out a large expulsion and cleaned the whole country – the whole Land of Israel, as far as the Jordan River…”

    • #83
  24. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    I do know that the Arabs that stayed in Israel were treated as equal Israeli citizens, in fact more equal, because they are exempted from the mandatory 2-year military service that all Jewish Israelis are subject to.

    The Palestinians that remained in Israel lived under martial law until 1966 – almost 20 years.

    From Baruch Kemmerling’s article:

    …I was shocked to discover that a major “purification” of the land…from its Arab Palestinian inhabitant was done during the 1948 War by the Jewish military and para-military forces. During this research I found, solely based on Israeli sources, that about 350 Arab villages were “abandoned” and their 3.25 million dunums of rural land, were confiscated and became…the property of the Israeli state or the Jewish National Fund….Moshe Dayan, then Minister of Agriculture, disclosed that about 700,000 Arabs who “left” the territories had owned four million dunums of land.

    …from 1882 until 1948, all the Jewish companies (including the Jewish National Fund…n) and private individuals in Palestine had succeeded in buying only about 7 percent of the total lands in British Palestine. All the rest was taken by sword and nationalized during the 1948 war and after…Israel is the only “democracy” in the world that nationalized almost all if its land and prohibited even the leasing of most of agricultural lands to non-Jews, a situation made possible by….legal arrangements with the Jewish National Fund, including the Basic Law: Israel Lands (1960), the Israel Lands Law and Israel Lands Administration Law (1960), as well as the Covenants between the Government of the State of Israel and the WZO of 1954 and the JNF of 1961.

    …Further research showed that the military blueprint for the 1948 war was the so-called “Plan D”…. General Yigael Yadin…stated:

    “The aim of this plan is the control of the area of the Jewish State and the defense of its borders …and the clusters of [Jewish] settlements outside the boundaries, against regular and irregular enemy forces operating from bases outside and inside the Jewish State.”

    [From the plan]:

    “…The destruction of villages (by fire, blowing up and mining) – especially of those villages over which we cannot gain [permanent] control. Gaining of control will be accomplished in accordance with the following instructions: The encircling of the village and the search of it. In the event of resistance – the destruction of the resisting forces and the expulsion of the population beyond the boundaries of the State.”

    …Implementing the spirit of this doctrine, the Jewish military forces conquered about 20,000 square kilometers of territory …and purified them almost completely from their Arab inhabitants. About 800,000 Arab inhabitants lived on the territories before… Fewer than 100,000 Arabs remained…after the cease fire…

    That may be so in the Geneva Convention, but I think they are talking about refugees, not actual military combatants.

    Do you really contend that the 750,000 were military combatants?

     

    • #84
  25. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Zafar (View Comment):

    That may be so in the Geneva Convention, but I think they are talking about refugees, not actual military combatants.

    Do you really contend that the 750,000 were military combatants?

    Maybe they didn’t all actually come back as soldiers, but if that was their intent when they left, which part is more important?

    • #85
  26. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    (Original Caption) Large bundles of personal possessions are carried on the head of Arab women and children begin a three mile hike through no man’s land to the Arab lines in Tulkarim. They were brought by truck to this point from a non combat Arab village near Haifa. Safe conduct was provided by the International Red Cross during this movement which took place after the current truce went into effect.

    • #86
  27. RufusRJones Member
    RufusRJones
    @RufusRJones

    Unsk (View Comment):

    To me, not to deride the impact of the current Anti-Semitism on Jews, for they should be very afraid, this current Anti-Semitism is part and parcel of the larger, overarching Neo-Marxist/Democrat attack on America, it’s values and it’s Constitutional Rights . As the quote kinda goes…first they came for the Jews………

    Not only is this Anti-Semitism rank bigotry, it is also an attack on our right to Freedom of Religion for Jews should be able to practice their religion as they choose without harassment. It’s not like their Jewish orthodox religious beliefs are a direct threat to our Republic like let’s say …..hmmmm Islam is. It is the Jew’s right under our Constitution to practice Judaism as they choose. But the Democrats in their fealty to the bigoted demands of the Islamic Lobby choose once again to disregard our Constitutional rights in the pursuit of a bigoted and frightening Police State that gives fealty to our enemies.

     

    I cannot possibly exaggerate how much I like this post. Well done. 

    • #87
  28. Steven Seward Member
    Steven Seward
    @StevenSeward

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    I do know that the Arabs that stayed in Israel were treated as equal Israeli citizens, in fact more equal, because they are exempted from the mandatory 2-year military service that all Jewish Israelis are subject to.

    The Palestinians that remained in Israel lived under martial law until 1966 – almost 20 years.

    From Baruch Kemmerling’s article:

    …I was shocked to discover that a major “purification” of the land…from its Arab Palestinian inhabitant was done during the 1948 War by the Jewish military and para-military forces. During this research I found, solely based on Israeli sources, that about 350 Arab villages were “abandoned” and their 3.25 million dunums of rural land, were confiscated and became…the property of the Israeli state or the Jewish National Fund….Moshe Dayan, then Minister of Agriculture, disclosed that about 700,000 Arabs who “left” the territories had owned four million dunums of land……….

    That may be so in the Geneva Convention, but I think they are talking about refugees, not actual military combatants.

    Do you really contend that the 750,000 were military combatants?

    Well, certainly not all Arabs who fled Israel in 1948 were military combatants.  Many were simply family members of such combatants and probably many just wanted to get the heck out of there.  The attacking Arab countries promised the Israeli Arabs that if they fled, they would be rewarded with the spoils of war after the Jews were either driven our or exterminated. 

    Given that the general Arab cultural position then (and in some cases now) was the genocidal extermination of the Jewish population, it would have been quite impossible for Israel to weed out the Arabs who left for traitorous reasons as opposed to the ones who left for more benign reasons.  They would had to have vetted a number of Arabs that was greater than Israel’s own population at the time.  They literally couldn’t have functioned as a country with such a task, not to mentioned they would probably have been slaughtered in short order by the returning Arab masses.

    Geneva convention rules may be fine for most situations, but this one would have destroyed Israel before they could finish singing “Hatikvah.”

    • #88
  29. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    The attacking Arab countries promised the Israeli Arabs that if they fled, they would be rewarded with the spoils of war after the Jews were either driven our or exterminated.

    Apparently that’s not true. Hasbara.

    Given that the general Arab cultural position then…

    ???

    How do you know the general Arab cultural position then or now?

    Geneva convention rules may be fine for most situations, but this one would have destroyed Israel before they could finish singing “Hatikvah.”

    Are you saying that Israel could not be created as a Jewish and Democratic State without ethnic cleansing of the Arabs?

    That’s basically admitting that Israel couldn’t be created without committing war crimes.

     

    • #89
  30. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    The attacking Arab countries promised the Israeli Arabs that if they fled, they would be rewarded with the spoils of war after the Jews were either driven our or exterminated.

    Apparently that’s not true. Hasbara.

    Given that the general Arab cultural position then…

    ???

    How do you know the general Arab cultural position then or now?

    Geneva convention rules may be fine for most situations, but this one would have destroyed Israel before they could finish singing “Hatikvah.”

    Are you saying that Israel could not be created as a Jewish and Democratic State without ethnic cleansing of the Arabs?

    That’s basically admitting that Israel couldn’t be created without committing war crimes.

     

    Maybe that’s a problem with rather loose and expansive definitions of “war crimes.”  If expelling people who would do you harm is a “war crime” then the definition needs improvement.

    • #90
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