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What Do You Pray For, Big Picture?
For the devout: What do you see as the “end game” of the world? This seems like a simple question, but I think it may not be.
Among Christians, is there a shared belief in a Second Coming, and is it what every Christian prays for? Do Christians even pray for it, if grace is supposed to come regardless of merit? You can see I am genuinely lost here.
For Jews, you might think it is simpler: Jews generally pray for the coming of the Messiah. Except when they don’t. There is a mixture of differing goals: the coming of Messiah is not clearly distinct from the Third Temple or even the resurrection of the dead. Speaking for myself, I focus on the Torah, which has no Messiah at all: my desired end state is a world in which Jews both perform all the commandments, and seek to understand the meaning behind all of them. I have no expectation of an “end” state to the world since it is not in the text. Instead, I see a continual process, but few specific products.
And for Muslims, I understand there are some visions of a global caliphate, a single politico-religious entity. Is such a caliphate run by a prophet? A philosopher-king? And am I entirely off-base on this?
If you believe in an end-of-time or some kind of “Finish Line” for the world, what do you think are its main features?
Published in General
On comment #58 @iwe : So Jews only consider the Torah, or the first five books of the Old Testament as being delivered by the mouth of God (to Moses through the Ten Commandments and the scrolls?) and the rest of the Old Testament as lesser and not to be taken – your words: “All later works are a lower level of fidelity, for commentary and not core information. This comes in part from what I quoted above: the Five Books themselves do not entertain subsequent texts that trump.” So that leaves the Historical Books, The Wisdom Books, The Prophets as not core information?
Then if God spoke to the prophets, and imparted in dreams and visions he messages, how could that be taken so lightly? It’s as if you are saying God stopped communicating after the first 5 books. It’s as if you are saying take it or leave it regarding the rest. Then how would you recognize the Messiah when he comes? Does anyone study the other books ? To Christians, there are many many references to the coming Messiah in the Old Testament that were fulfilled in Jesus, so it seems like it would be core information that God is imparting.
I hope I don’t sound disrespectful, but I am genuinely interested – that’s all. This definition you give would be like Christians taking everything and everyone out of the New Testament and only leaving Jesus’ words.
Which we take to mean that we cannot add or subtract any commandments from the Torah. So nothing gets cancelled or “fulfilled” some other way. The document applies throughout time.
If taken in the way you describe, the rest of the books, especially the prophets, are irrelevant. Christians also do not add or subtract any commandments either – there are only 10. But the rest of the Bible backs up and confirms the words of the prophets and in the New Testament, Jesus’ words.
Correct.
He stopped telling us anything new after the 5 books. We derive not a single law from anything after the 5 Books.
I wrote on this some time ago in Ricochet – the letter that is translated as “thus sayeth the Lord” is ALWAYS, in the Torah, an approximation that is NOT accurate.
No. I am saying that nothing that follows the 5 books can add to or detract from them. They are color layers only.
If you read my OP, you’ll see that I have no Messiah at all in my faith. I view the concept as a later corruption from outside religions and an innate human desire for deus ex machina.
We read from the prophets, we know some (Esther/Lamentations/Ruth/Ecclesiastes/SongofSongs/Jonah/psalms) quite well. But most of the rest is not closely studied. Oddly enough this is a sexual divide: the average scholar may have NEVER read all the prophets, Kings, etc, but women study them in depth.
Funnily enough, while the Talmud should not be a higher level than the prophets, because of a similar Greek-style focus on deriving laws, the average orthodox man learns for an hour or two a day – Talmud (Mishnah and Gemara), but not Torah OR the other canonical works. This learning is the Oral Law – the how of following commandments.
That is a difference between our faiths.
continuing…
That is largely how Jews see Christian observance – all the commandments that are totally ignored… I know why Christians say they do not keep the dietary laws, but to an observant Jew, it looks just like ignoring a direct and timeless divine commandment.
There are hundreds in the text.
I personally don’t care for this type of multi faith interactions. I don’t know what it’s supposed to accomplish. I find it an affront to my religion if there is a service from another religion in a sanctified religious space. Why do we need this? It is enough to say we want peace and offer respect to other religions. I just point out that the more ecumenical dialogue we have, and we have had a bit over the last fifty years, the more faith in religion goes down. All you get is this amorphous “all religions are the same” nonsense if not a complete “all religions are meaningless” atheism. .
Can’t argue with that! Correction: I surely understand your statement about Judaism and Jesus – its no surprise.
That is debated, of course. (Even among Jews.)
Every orthodox Christian acknowledges that G-d is one. That’s not optional. Denying it is heresy.
You still haven’t explained this properly. If Moses and Isaiah say “Thus sayeth the LORD” and if Isaiah is not giving us the Word of G-d, how does he not fall under the condemnation of a false prophet in Deuteronomy 18?
Your response in “Judaism and Christianity: Ricochet Discovery” was that when Moses says “Thus says the LORD” he proceeds to give G-d’s message filtered through the prophet’s own understanding, rather than G-d’s verbatim message.
That was your premise. The conclusion you drew from it is that when a prophet says “Thus says the LORD” in Judaism it means he is not giving us the very Word of G-d.
Your premise is fine. Your conclusion does not follow.
It does not follow, that is, without the help of an additional premise: that G-d’s truth filtered through a prophet’s mind for the understanding of his hearers can not be the very Word of God.
But why should we believe that?
Continued:
(Continued from previous)
It seems a straightforward enough reading of the Torah that when Moses says “Thus says the LORD” he proceeds to give us the very Word of G-d. It is perfectly logical, in fact, to reason from that interpretation and from your observation about how Moses delivers G-d’s message to the conclusion that G-d’s truth filtered through a prophet’s mind for the understanding of his hearers can be the very Word of G-d.
If I tell one of my kids, “You have to take your bath because your mother says you have to take your bath,” it doesn’t mean she used the exact words “you have to take your bath.” I can truthfully say “She says” and proceed to give her meaning in words fit for the occasion or for the audience. Similarly, what is said by the prophet in G-d’s name, though paraphrased, G-d still calls “my words” (Deut. 18:18).
Continued:
(Continued from previous)
On page 4 of “Dialogue on Old Testament Canonicity” you gave an interesting response to my concerns, which I did my best to figure out (# 123). I think your argument was this: When the Hebrew letter kaf is used, it means that one thing is like another thing, but not exactly like it; Moses uses this letter when he says “Thus says the LORD,” and so his following words are not exactly the word of G-d.
As #s 124-125 tried to explain, I don’t see why Moses must be taken to be comparing his words to G-d’s Word. He could well be comparing his words to G-d’s verbatim words, saying that his words are like G-d’s verbatim words.
Seriously?
Do I need to find the place where you said that every Jew knows that Gentiles only have to follow the Noahide laws?
Or are you talking about Jewish Christians? But you’ve denied their existence!
You are confusing two items:
1: I have no problem with other people making their own choices; and
2: When someone says they follow the Torah, it seems odd that they ignore most of it.
The text is actually extremely clear on this. Every. Single. Time. the text uses the prefix “kaf” (meaning ‘thus/so’ as in ‘so sayeth the Lord.’), what follows is NOT the same, accurate, or verbatim. Without exception!
So your assertions to the contrary are simply not what the text says. “Thus sayeth the Lord” is NOT what the Lord says. Not for Moshe, not even once. Which means, in the logic of the Torah, that it is precisely the same for the rest of the holy books, because the early examples set the trend for the later ones.
This is incorrect. I do not claim a premise. When Moses says “Thus says the Lord” the Torah ALWAYS TELLS US what G-d told Moses – and it is NOT the same!
In sum: if the Torah sets the template, then the prophets are at a lower level of accuracy/fidelity, by their own admission.
According to you, it looks like they aren’t obeying the timeless divine commands directly given to them in the Torah.
And, according to you, the only commands the Torah actually gives to them are the Noahid laws.
That is confusing.
Auggie, I have no idea how you have tied yourself into this knot. It is entirely illogical and disconnected from anything I said.
I’ll try once more, then I’ll stop:
1: If someone SAYS they take the Torah seriously, then it strikes me as odd when they ignore most of the commandments. This is true about anyone, regardless of their religious affiliation.
2: If someone does not claim to follow the Torah, then at the most I would like them to follow the Noachide principles.
What assertions to the contrary? Did I say it was the same? Did I say it was verbatim? Why don’t you pay attention to what I do say?
[Sigh.]
iWe, do you even remember what you said in “Judaism and Christianity”? You had a premise and a conclusion at the time. You still do, although you run through two different versions of the argument here–premises underlined in my quotation, conclusion bolded.
You are characteristically unclear. You use two different versions of your premise. When you say “inaccurate” in the first version, do you mean only that it is not an accurate quote–corresponding to your earlier language (here and here) of “approximate,” “NEVER verbatim,” and using “editing or paraphrasing” with “inexact similarity”?
If so, then please try to pay attention to what I actually say:
I am not denying your premise, and have not done so at least since December 2015; the problem is that your conclusion does not follow from your premise, which is a simple fact of logic; it would follow with the help of an additional premise (one stating that the Word of G-d cannot be approximate), which additional premise you have never given me the slightest reason to accept.
I am tied in no knot, and, for my part, have no idea why you ignore what I say.
Your latest statements 1 and 2 are perfectly consistent, but it looks like you’re changing your tune.
Have you not said that the Noahide laws are the only ones actually commanded for Gentiles in the Torah?
I found it.
And now, to get to the point:
I’m surprised. You did not actually say that the Noahide laws are commanded for all people in the Torah. You said that they should follow them, but did not say why! Do you actually not think they are commanded for Gentiles?
But when Christians says they follow the Torah but do not… we consider that a data point.
It is not that clear in the text. Yes, I think the Noachide laws are the basis for any decent society. But does G-d explicitly command you to follow them? I do not see it.
Christians don’t say they follow Torah law. They say they follow the Word of G-d in its fullness, including the Torah.
Thank you; this clears up a few things: You think we should follow the Noahid laws for some practical reason or other, but you don’t think they are commanded for Gentiles.
Well, your views are consistent, and I was mistaken above in thinking otherwise.
Given (what I understand to be) your assumptions–that nothing in the Torah is commanded for Gentiles, and that everything in the Torah is commanded always for all Jews–it really would seem odd that Christians would honor the Ten Commandments, Noahide laws, or whatever else from the Torah, but not the dietary laws.
Obviously, we do not have the same assumptions.
Genesis 9 commands the Noahide laws for all humans plainly enough. The Torah was never about Jews alone–see the Abrahamic promises which are themselves the context in which the Torah law itself is given. The Torah has content beyond the giving of law to the Jews. You’re very big on having the first Torah use of a word or a letter determine how it is used later; why not allow the first sentence and the first chapter tell us something about later sentences that concern the same things? “In the beginning G-d created the heavens and the earth.” “In the image of G-d created he” all men and women, not only all Jews. The Torah says something about everything, and says some things to everyone.
Thank you – this is interesting. Yes, I mis-understood what you meant by Commandments – the dietary laws and all the rest I would not consider commandments, but for a Jew, yes. So the women read more – and are smarter then? :-)
I absolutely agree with this. The Torah has both specific and universalist messages to share.
But I am not inclined to view “things I’d like everyone to know” as commandments that others must follow. Why must they? Instead, I see the problem as one of informational marketing. People can only respond to what they have knowledge of. And a more persuasive case can always be made. “G-d Said So” is a terrible way to persuade free peoples to make good choices.
On another note, to reference @iwe in that the Torah is from the mouth of God, I want to add that in the New Testament, 2nd Timothy. Chapter 3 vs. 16 says: All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness”.
Apparently you don’t agree with all of it.
Christians follow (what we take to be) the universalist ones, but not the specific ones. Is that so odd?
Because it’s commanded. Because it’s good for them. Because it’s instructions for fulfilling the human potential and living according to the proper function of the human being. (We only need one reason, but we are blessed with more than that!)
That’s a challenge for rhetoric and teaching. It’s not evidence for the absence of a fact. It doesn’t overrule plain enough instructions and commands given in the Torah to all humanity.
I would have said that: “Christian”, unfortunately, is no longer universally given the same meaning it had in Antioch and my comment had that in mind.