Ricochet is the best place on the internet to discuss the issues of the day, either through commenting on posts or writing your own for our active and dynamic community in a fully moderated environment. In addition, the Ricochet Audio Network offers over 50 original podcasts with new episodes released every day.
The Capitol PD Made the Right Call
This morning, a great deal of the conservative movement’s support for law enforcement went up in smoke. Whereas after any number of police shootings we spend time going over the video to explain why the use of force was justified, today prominent conservatives are calling the shooting of an Air Force veteran in the Capitol “murder.”
(Content warning): This is the moment where Capitol Police discharged their weapons:
GRAPHIC FOOTAGE: Police fatally shoot a Trump supporter inside the Capitol building. This is a sickening crime that should be prosecuted as such. pic.twitter.com/X8JK7HplJ7
— Dan Cohen (@dancohen3000) January 7, 2021
This is another angle:
Look carefully at this. She was unarmed, shot, and killed for what?
Crawling thru an interior window?
People storm police stations and don't get shot. This is very wrong. pic.twitter.com/lkTa2zXNQa
— HARLAN Z. HILL 🇺🇸 (@Harlan) January 7, 2021
I’m astounded it must be said, but I’ll say it anyway: You aren’t allowed to join a violent mob invading the Capitol and attempt to crawl through a window that members of your group broke and move in the direction of cowering lawmakers, a group of the most powerful people in the country.
Police didn’t know whether she was armed or not, and it’s irrelevant. If you’re in a government facility (or even a private residence) and you’re crawling through a broken window in the direction of people you have made clear you wish to harm (by virtue of being part of the storming mob), you are subjecting yourself to any manner of deterrence, lethal or not.
Honestly, it’s lucky for the group who stormed the Capitol that there was only one shooting-related death (there were three other deaths unrelated to firearms, but directly tied to the storming). The attempt by prominent members of the conservative movement to vilify the Capitol officer and paint Ashli Babbitt as a martyr is hypocritical and a dangerous precedent. We have no room vilify any member of a mob (whether they are BLM or Antifa-affiliated) ever again if we make excuses for why Babbitt didn’t bear responsibility for the tragic fate that befell her yesterday.
Published in General
Agree with first sentence only. Unless she was a security police member of USAF she was no trained killer.
Not to me, in essence. I know they didn’t go beating up speakers they disagreed with or do a lot of other bad Antifa stuff. But the essential idea they operate under seems the same: the system sucks, I am justified.
I think you need to go a sentence further. Justified to what. Pull a stupid political stunt for which they should be arrested or burn done cities and harming the livelihood of normal people Â
Ah, no. Â Actually, it’s extremely relevant. Â Law enforcement and civilians are not allowed to employ lethal force to protect property (with certain caveats). Â Castle doctrine doesn’t apply to public buildings. Â So, unless it was posted (there are multitudinous buildings/facilities where there’re signs saying “If you enter this area unauthorized, we will kill you”).
And, I saw all the Capitol Police in their super coolio civvie suits. Â What, they’re not required to carry the panoply of less than lethal options that almost every single beat cop nationwide has to carry? Â There were no asps to beat her back? Â No pepper spray to render her intrusion ineffective? Â No Taser to make her do the kickin’ chicken?
Great. Â Understood. Â Copy all.
Then take those tools away from every cop in this country who has had to face riots. Â Make sure they know that the moment they feel their (or innocent others’) safety is endangered, they can immediately go to lethal force. Â Coast to coast. Â I’m good with that.
It was a symbol of government, not government itself. Happens all the time. It is like a Flag burning. Although it can’t be that since a person has been banned form DC for attempting to burn a BLM flag – I guess that the judge thinks BLM is more valuable than a regular flag.
Ordinary buildings, are the livelihood of ordinary Americans – much more important. Yet they didn’t seem to matter much to our elected officials this summer.
Â
Republican politicians and members of the Administration are targeted and harassed in public quite frequently by the left. Am I to assume that Rand Paul is very important and a member of the government when he is in the Capital but just some average joe when he is walking down the street or in his own yard?
In this case breaking a window is not attacking the governmentÂ
Impressions: The rally/whatever was poorly planned both on the part of the participants and on the part of law enforcement.Â
There are reports of Capitol Police opening the doors to the “invaders.” If true, it compounded the chaos.Â
Going to a mass event increases the likelihood of things going very bad very fast.
Add law enforcement to the mix, and everybody going home safely depends on no bad actors in the crowd, and law enforcement not screwing up to badly.
Crowds can turn into mobs fast, even Republican crowds, even assuming that nobody in the crowd starts out wanting to hurt people—and the bigger the crowd, the less likely that is.
A big crowd likely to attract a hostile, trained opposition experienced in mob violence makes bad outcomes more likely.Â
The question then becomes whether the potential benefit justifies the risk of being there, or is it just a futile and stupid gesture on a lot of peoples’ parts.
This event looked to me in advance to be a futile and stupid gesture.
This sounds like what we saw (rant and language warning at the link):
That’s for the whole demo. Going into the Capitol? Compounding the stupid. On the other hand, what the revolutionaries of 1775-1783 did looked stupid until it wasn’t.
From @bossmongo’s professional assessment of the fatal shooting, depending on those armed strangers was a fatal error on Ashli Babbit’s part. Does that mean that Ashli Babbit wasn’t brave, well-meaning and enthusiastic? No way. It means she was in a place where her life depended on a bunch of armed strangers’ good judgement and no less-likely-lethal options. Did she accomplish something good by knowingly risking her life in that way? We don’t know yet.Â
This guy is in law enforcement. Maybe you’ve heard of him. He has an interesting take.
I disagree with Dunphy. Â Surprise. Â
When a mob is busting through barriers and climbing on walls after being told to stop, there is no assumption that they are not going to hurt anyone. Â It’s a mob and you should always assume that they will hurt someone. Â You should always assume they are armed. Â There is no duty to retreat in the common law, and there is certainly no duty for the police to retreat. Â
I’m sorry she is dead. I’m sorry she was so stupid as to climb like that and pose a threat to the people inside. Â If you behave uncivilized, you stand to be permanently removed from civilization.
I agree, the mob changes things. If she were committing this in an isolated way then I agree that deadly force is not warranted. When it’s a mob or a riot (and although this wasn’t insurrection I do think it was probably a riot and it was definitely a mob) that’s a mighty escalation and general peace is imminently and inherently at risk.
The door to the hallway was barricaded by furniture. That should be the first clue for someone outside the door unless you’re a Capitol police officer you don’t belong on the other side of the door. It’s no different than the locked door on a home, business, or public building. If you don’t have the key to the lock than you don’t belong on the other side of the door.
It appears the officer that fired the shot was a plainclothes officer, probably assigned to the personal protection unit. Perhaps he had someone like a member of Congress, or the Senate, or staffers in the room behind him sheltering in place. It does appear to be an office corridor. Perhaps there were other elected officials, and staff sheltering in place in offices in that corridor. We don’t know if that’s the case, but that is what investigations are for.
Her death was tragic, but she bears some responsibility for putting herself in a situation she could not control, a situation that involved criminal activity, to include vandalism, trespass, and disorderly conduct with the express purpose to place people in fear of physical injury.
Insurrection is what goes on in these chambers when normal Americans aren’t storming the walls.
You are a braver man than I am, Drew. If I had a screaming mob outside my house and someone was climbing in through a broken window, I would shoot to kill. I would not have the guts to wait until I had proof that they had a lethal weapon on them.
Closing and locking the door might be a place to start, as opposed to what we see in this video.
https://nypost.com/2021/01/07/capitol-police-hold-door-for-pro-trump-protesters-video-shows/
Â
Exactly. If there are multiple cops and it’s one lone woman climbing through a window, then sure, they ought to be able to arrest her without shooting, unless she pulls a weapon. But it’s a mob.
A few of them, a cadre, were Antifa. This was a successful operation, just like the vote fraud you don’t believe.
Agreed. The big problem, for me, is the hypocrisy. Actually it’s more than mere hypocrisy. It’s unequal application of the law for all the wrong reasons – and my “side” is on the short end of both sides of that stick. I’m all for harshly putting down mobs, but I’ll be damned if I’m going along with the timid, incompetent, and false schmucks who are disingenuously claiming this to be some kind of monstrous tipping point. It isn’t.
FAFO as the kids say nowadays.
Yes, but just because Kamala Harris (for instance) is a hypocrite doesn’t justify me being one. A mob that is breaking down doors or setting buildings afire or whatever is a mob to me, regardless of their skin color, who they vote for, or any other demographic breakdown. I don’t want police killing people when they aren’t a threat, but we have seen plenty of evidence this year alone, that angry mobs are dangerous.
And “my side” is not on the short end of both sides of the stick. The rioters that tried to stop Congress from doing their job are no more on my side than are the rioters who burn down buildings in the name of justice for George Floyd.
Your example is a reference to the grounds of the Castle Doctrine – breaking into your occupied dwelling is a prime facia ground for using deadly force. No one dwells in the Capitol Building.
There are still too many unknowns about this as my brother points out. The lack of security preparation in and around the Capitol is astounding particularly since it was estimated beforehand that some 1 million people would be arriving in DC. It was also reported that at least 4 busloads of Antifa troublemakers also made the trip to Washington as reported by several rally attendees, a few reporters and at least one unnamed FBI agent who contacted investigative reporter Paul Sperry.
It should also be noted that there were several SWAT officers within about 6 feet of the victim, crouching in the stairwell directly behind her, when she was shot — of whom the shooting officer was probably not aware. Had one of those SWAT officers stood up to yank down the woman, he could have easily been in the line of fire and could have been hit. Given the chaotic nature of the unfolding event it was almost a miracle that more people weren’t shot and credit should go to law enforcement for the restraint they did show.
Also of note – there is a video that does show that at one point Capitol Police officers actually opened an entrance to the Capitol and permitted at least two dozen or more Trump supporters into the building. There was no scuffle. Were there troublemakers in amongst this group? Quite possibly but the video I saw seems to show the group peacefully climbing stairs perhaps leading to the rotunda area.
The timeline of events should also be under more scrutiny because one of the President’s attorneys has said that much of the chaos that was beginning to happen at the Capitol building occurred when Trump was still speaking some 1.5 miles away and that when Trump did mention going to the Capitol building he instructed that his supporters do so in a peaceful and orderly fashion.
Randy the island. You’re on a side whether you want to be or not.
As far as consistency: at some point it’s not consistency on your part, it’s not restoration of order, if the only time the PTB align with your (inarguably correct) view is when it benefits them politically, then you have to acknowledge that it’s not restoration of order but continuation of a broader breakdown.
Think of it in terms of movies where there is a bad guy doing bad things, the good guy finally reacts (in a way that is normally not right) and in so doing is punished while the bad guy smirks and taunts and lives to continue doing bad things. Except it’s always this way, there is never comeuppance except for the good guys when they finally react.
We’re getting caught in specific events and specific people while missing the broader breakdown. At some point the people always ignoring the bad guys are either doing it on purpose or they need to recognize the more fundamental injustice that is occurring. That needs to be resolved before we can get back to just applying the law. The law has to apply to all or else it’s just another weapon and not an instrument of a free people.
I reckon there are at least a few other people on the island with me, who oppose right-wing and left-wing barbarians. At least I’ve got @bethanymandel for company. She seems nice.
My point isn’t that I don’t oppose barbarians, it’s that only recognizing barbarity (if that’s what it was) when one side does it is a bigger problem than the barbarity which will only invite more.
No, you will be forced to pick a side when they start lining people up against the wall. Â Ask the good people of Spain from the 1930’s what being neutral meant.
@bethanymandel  Just read a bit on Instapundit that the US Attorney’s office has begun an ‘unlawful use of force investigation” in the death of Ashli Babbitt. This would be a civil rights violation charge which might result from the criminal investigations of the Capitol and Metropolitan Police.
It is rewarding fanaticism when we say we have to stick up for political violence when it is perpetrated by people who voted the same as us. America is not a maximum security prison where we have to join one gang of thugs or another.
It is rewarding political violence and fanatacism when you stick with those who only ever punish political violence and fanatacism in one direction.Yes yes you’re consistent, but you’re shutting your eyes to a system that isn’t, and that’s way worse in my opinion.
Who says I’m shutting my eyes to it? When have I ever excused the lack of prosecution of left-wing rioters?
You haven’t, I’m sure. That’s not what I mean.
I was a pro wrestling fanatic as a kid. This is like the hapless ref only ever enforcing the rules against the Road Warriors while Ric Flair and the boys broke all the rules. First problem was that the Road Warriors were the only ones respecting the rules. The second problem was that the Four Horsemen actively subverted and distracted so they can break the rules while the other guys were being unfairly distracted or even hindered. Last, that situation is obviously unjust and untenable – it’s not actually the game we want if the rules are being subverted this way. Which is why even a kid could recognize that when the Road Warriors and allies fought back that they were right to do so, that demanding that one side follows the rules while knowing that the other side isn’t is not actually a righteous response.