The Dangers of Political Science

 

The December issue of The American Journal of Medicine includes an editorial titled, “Public Health Strategies Contain and Mitigate COVID-19: A Tale of Two Democracies.” Wow, what a majestic title for a medical journal article. It begins with this paragraph:

On January 19, 2020, the first cases of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) were introduced by travelers from Wuhan, China, the initial epicenter, into both South Korea and the United States. In this commentary, we compare the responses of both democratic republics and demonstrate that the immediate and nationally coordinated public health strategies employed by South Korea effectively contained and mitigated their epidemic. In contrast, the US government mounted a delayed and fragmented response, becoming and remaining the worldwide epicenter of the pandemic.

This might strike you as an odd comparison. South Korea has about 50 million people, and The United States has around 330 million. The population density of South Korea is nearly 15 times greater than The United States – about 515 people per km2 in South Korea vs. about 36 people per km2 in the USA. South Korea’s population is much less diverse, more urban, and has a very different cultural background than America’s. America’s landmass is enormous and highly variable in terms of climate, landscape, and population density, while South Korea is much smaller and more densely populated.  The United States is, well, a group of states – each of which is very different from the others, and each of which has its own locally elected governors and legislatures. It makes no sense for Wyoming to take the same approach as New Jersey on various matters, so they often don’t. One might expect the US response to be more “fragmented” than a smaller, more homogeneous country like South Korea.  And that fragmented response might make a lot of sense in such a large, diverse group of states.

So why would someone choose to compare those two countries? They would seem to be apples and oranges. Keep that question in mind as we move forward…

In an effort to contrast South Korea to the US, the authors begin the second paragraph with the following sentence, which include the words “promptly” and “efficiently”:

Upon report of the country’s first case, South Korea promptly and efficiently instituted nationally coordinated strategies of containment and mitigation.

A bit later in the article, the authors criticize some American politicians and citizens for questioning the benefit of masks:

Masking in the United States has been politicized despite clear scientific evidence of effectiveness.

Well, ok, that’s true – there is clear evidence that masks help. But there is also clear evidence that they don’t help. (The Mount Sinai study and the Danish study, for example. Not to mention the society-wide data on masks is unclear at best.) This is a common problem in medicine. There are often some studies that show clear evidence of one thing, other studies that show clear evidence of something else, and doctors are left to judge which results are most applicable in various situations based on various criteria.

There is clear evidence of many things, so it can be hard to say which “clear evidence” is correct. The phrase “clear evidence of effectiveness” would be very difficult to defend with data. The data would begin a discussion. But no one really knows for sure.

Much of what I learned in medical school (based on “clear evidence” of the time) is malpractice now. No one really knows for sure.

Now, this journal article is an editorial, so they are simply giving their opinions. They are not beholden to data when writing an editorial. But they are physicians, writing in a medical journal, so one might expect the authors to be a bit more careful with sweeping statements like that.

But hey, these physicians who work in academic settings are under a lot of pressure from a lot of angles, so I can overlook much of the grandstanding that I describe above. Fine. Whatever.

But then I get to the last paragraph, which begins thusly:

We strongly concur with all responsible health professionals that there is an urgent need for a unified national approach to implementation of effective public health mitigation strategies such as social distancing, masking, avoidance of crowds, and frequent hand and face washing. These simple measures are likely to be at least as effective as any safe vaccine that may be developed and approved for widespread use by the general public.

Ok. That crosses a line, in my view. Actually, it crosses a few lines:

We strongly concur with all responsible health professionals…” So all who agree with them are responsible, and those who take a different view are not responsible.  Right.  Ok, so if I study this complex problem and reach different conclusions than these esteemed authors, then there is no reason for us to discuss the matter and try to learn from one another. No, I’m simply not a ‘responsible health professional‘ in that case, and can be ignored and treated with disdain.

How many scientific blunders throughout history occurred because people wouldn’t listen to dissenting views?

“…there is an urgent need for a unified national approach to implementation of effective public health mitigation strategies…” Yikes.

When someone combines a casual disregard for scientific uncertainty with a call “…for a unified national approach…” as agreed upon by “…all responsible health professionals…” – geez, that makes my skin crawl. We are sailing into some very dangerous waters, here.

Some of what they’re recommending is probably reasonable.  But their adolescent certainty of their own insight and virtue makes my skin crawl.

These simple measures are likely to be at least as effective as any safe vaccine…” Ok, that’s an absolutely incredible assertion. When you look at COVID data from counties, states, and countries that took various different approaches, it’s difficult to find a pattern – did their “national approach to implementation of effective public health mitigation strategies” actually help? Probably, some. Perhaps. Hard to say, in some cases. But hey, these things are complicated, right?

The vaccines we have now claim a 90% reduction in COVID cases. Can any “national approach to implementation of effective public health mitigation strategies” that we’ve seen so far get anywhere close to a 90% reduction in COVID cases?  Of course not.

The cynic in me suspects that when they say, “These simple measures are likely to be at least as effective as any safe vaccine…” that all they’re really trying to say is that when COVID starts to improve, whenever that is, it will be thanks to whatever President Biden is about to do, and not thanks to President Trump’s vaccine. That’s a tricky assertion to substantiate, so they make no effort to do so. At least, no serious effort to do so. They simply assert. They do not substantiate. And again, in an editorial, that is not an unusual approach.

But these are physicians, writing in the American Journal of Medicine. I might expect more.

Or rather, I wish I expected more. The long slow march through the institutions has now conquered academia and research. Which is a tragic loss for us all, as we are now learning. American universities and scientific research are a big part of what made this country great.

We politicize such important institutions at our peril.

So a group of academics wants to pre-emptively rob a Republican president of credit for fighting COVID by helping develop a vaccine. Fine. It’s your name on the article, not mine.  Go ahead.

But then they write an editorial with some things that are probably true (handwashing helps), and some things that might be true (masks help), with some things that are obviously not true (These simple measures are likely to be at least as effective as any safe vaccine…).  They casually summarize complex and conflicted data with a wave of the hand, and then authoritatively declare that anyone who disagrees with their “urgent need for a unified national approach to implementation of effective public health mitigation strategies” is not a responsible health professional.

So they mix good data with bad, find in that complex data a consistent pattern that does not exist, and demand that we all follow a plan of centralized control, much of which isn’t clear to have benefit.

They then pre-emptively declare that any who are foolish enough to question them are dangerous radicals.  So those who want to control society based on questionable data are just being reasonable.  But those who stop and think about all this are radicals.

Right.

When our doctors and scientists say things that are so clearly politically biased, they discredit everything else they say (including the stuff that’s probably true).  Some of what they say is important and merits our careful attention.  But why listen to them now?  They’re just playing politics.

These are dangerous waters…

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  1. davenr321 Coolidge
    davenr321
    @davenr321

    “… US government mounted a delayed and fragmented response, becoming and remaining the worldwide epicenter of the pandemic. …”

    Is the US the “epicenter” – wait, the worldwide epicenter of the pandemic…? COVID-19 thus flows from the US to the rest of the world due to the collective “our” not reacting accordingly?

    Spa fon! Nonsense, says my BS detector. Is this rag actually a respected journal? Is its readership in lockstep agreement?  

    • #31
  2. Gazpacho Grande' Coolidge
    Gazpacho Grande'
    @ChrisCampion

    That’s some pretty bad writing from scienticians.  They’re wrong all over the place, and proudly strutting about it.

    When we finally decide to tar and feather our political “leadership”, let’s save a few buckets for these chowderheads.  Also, this is a good reminder to not get sick, since these same chowderheads practice medicine.

    • #32
  3. Basil Fawlty Member
    Basil Fawlty
    @BasilFawlty

    Stad (View Comment):

    You know, I’ve never liked the term “Political Science” for a major. There is nothing scientific about politics. If you want truth in advertising, “Political Science” should be renamed “Studies in Power” . . .

    When I went to school, Politics was still part of the History Department.

    • #33
  4. Dr. Bastiat Member
    Dr. Bastiat
    @drbastiat

    Gazpacho Grande' (View Comment):
    this is a good reminder to not get sick, since these same chowderheads practice medicine.

    No they don’t.  They’re academics.  They tell the rest of us how to practice medicine.  

    Which is another danger of political science…

    • #34
  5. Stad Coolidge
    Stad
    @Stad

    Theodoric of Freiberg (View Comment):
    Any major that has “Science” in its name is assuredly not science.  . . . Computer Science

    I agree, and my oldest daughter has her degree in Math and Computer Science.  I too prefer Software Engineering or Programming over Computer Science . . .

    • #35
  6. Ontheleftcoast Inactive
    Ontheleftcoast
    @Ontheleftcoast

    Political science:

    A prominent Contra Costa County [California] doctor said he was reassigned Friday after questioning why the county went into a COVID-19 lockdown before the state mandate.

    The medical director of Trauma and Regional Services for John Muir Health will no longer hold that title after speaking out, saying he believed students and small businesses are suffering unnecessarily.

    “They’re not answering simple questions, why are you doing this? And that’s what the business community is asking and I think that is what the doctor is asking,” said Reve Bistro owner Laura Magu.

     

    She believes Dr. Michael deBoisblanc is being punished for taking a stand for the community and small businesses, questioning if outdoor dining is really causing the spread of COVID-19.

    “I’m happy medical professionals are asking, I don’t know anything, I’m not a scientist,” said Magu.

    But deBoisblanc is a trauma surgeon, and he along with two other doctors wrote a letter to Contra Costa County’s health director and the board of supervisors saying that they are deeply concerned about the lockdowns and that science is clear that more lockdowns lead to much more non-COVID morbidity and mortality as supported by the CDC.

    Magu said it’s sad one doctor is getting push back.

    “For some reason, when other people try to voice their opinions that goes against the narrative no one wants to hear it,” said Magu.

    John Muir Hospital executives told its staff that the doctor is being replaced as the director of trauma with no explanation.

     

     

    • #36
  7. Mark Camp Member
    Mark Camp
    @MarkCamp

    Stad (View Comment):

    You know, I’ve never liked the term “Political Science” for a major. There is nothing scientific about politics. If you want truth in advertising, “Political Science” should be renamed “Studies in Power” . . .

    “Is Political Science really a science?”

    To answer, one must make a decision.

    According to some psychologists, each of us prefers to use one of two methods when making decisions. The Myers-Briggs people call these “T” and “F”.

    Type F decision-makers will tend to decide on “Yes” or “No”, as Stad did.

    Type T folks will tend to choose “It depends. What is your definition of “science”?

    I bring it up because I use “T”, and there may be a few other members who do, too.

    Unfortunately, if you wish to communicate with one of us, you will have to, temporarily at least, adopt our method.

    Why is it up to you to change? Is that fair? You all are large majority, after all.

    No it is not fair, but it’s the only possible way of bridging the vast communication gap between the Ts and the Fs.  Once a person has switched from F  to T, as all  of us T-type problem solvers did at some point in our lives, it is literally impossible for him or her to go back.

    • #37
  8. I Walton Member
    I Walton
    @IWalton

    For some reason this article brought to mind the fall of Rojas Pinilla in Colombia, but sort of reversed.  Rojas was put in charge by the powers that be who were fighting each other to the death, tearing the country apart, but like all dictators after bringing peace he didn’t want to leave.   The story I heard from a key journalist in the midst of it all, once it was clear both parties and almost all of the people wanted to get rid of him, a broad and deep anti Rojas movement exploded forth.  The movement was real, country wide, and supported by ordinary families when the verbal story spread country wide overnight that Rojas had fallen. He hadn’t, the journalist told me, but the celebration was so wide and deep there was nothing Rojas could do except step down.   

    So what reminded me of this?  It’s sort of on its head.  The people sit quietly wanting Trump to have won, and real evidence is that he did in a landslide, but  democrats, organized interests and the bureaucracy asserts Biden won and everyone sort of goes along, including the courts and both party leaders who found Trump troublesome to the way they like to exercise political power.  

    So there may be nothing similar, but it popped in my mind as I read this excellent article because in the Colombian case mass movement was ignited and worked against a narrowly supported dictator.  In our democratic system voters elected Trump but the establishment is asserting and the press is confirming that Biden won.  I don’t think we can sit around and if we do I don’t think we’ll get another chance for many years to unseat the top down dictatorship that will be deepened and expanded. 

    • #38
  9. Brian Clendinen Inactive
    Brian Clendinen
    @BrianClendinen

    But then they write an editorial with some things that are probably true (handwashing helps), and some things that might be true (masks help), with some things that are obviously not true (These simple measures are likely to be at least as effective as any safe vaccine…).

    Actually the hand washing part along with excessive cleaning of surfaces appears to not be true either in public settings. Due to how influenza spreads. Granted there is only like 3 or 4 studies on each in a public setting only one showed it really helped but it was a culture with no handwashing.

    Unlike Mask in medical facilities, extra hand washing (10+ times a day) even in medical facilities does not appear to help much.

     

    Plus how helpful mask are per Danish study is what I told people I thought it would be back in the summer after reading the 2004 SARS mask studies from hospital setting. Being disciplined with cotton mask help a little (not much). (300 people have to wear a mask to stop one additional case)

    98%+ of people wearing mask don’t follow the Danish mask protocols and don’t have high grade medical mask. Therefore the other studies come into play. Mask are worthless.

    From researchers who have study the issue before COVID-19 that I have seen interviews with. They basically say there is almost nothing you can due to stop the spread at large once the virus got out. You can only reduce risking in specific areas but a little or get a Vaccine.

    The lie public health officials brainwash people into believing the control they and the population have in the long run (short run it appears to only delay) is criminal and manslaughter ( Don’t use the words lightly but the evidence is pretty strong).

    I think the 94% vaccine number sounds impressive but if the study I heard about but have not read is true then the vaccine is helpful.  But the numbers are phrased to make it sound way more effective than it is. If 80% of people who get COVID-19 are asymptotic  (the 50% I believe you hear stated is only the one in eight who test positive for COVID-19 that get COVID-19).  And they way they phrase it is that 94% of people (in a very small sample aka 94 people getting COVID-19) don’t show any symptoms when they get COVID-19 who had the vaccine.

    You can see the marketing BS they are trying to pull. Heck I don’t always trust my own doctor because they are full of it at times and don’t care about root cause analysis and the science. So it does not surprise me a political organization is even worse at something that is messy from a messaging standpoint. 

     

     

    • #39
  10. Brian Clendinen Inactive
    Brian Clendinen
    @BrianClendinen

    Also I question that if you can even call South Korea Democratic anymore after their massive voter Fraud in April that appears to be supported by China

    You just don’t hear about it because in South Korea the Government can go after their media organizations for stating factual statements if it disparages someone unless its in the public interest. I will give you one guess who decides what is in the public interest?

    • #40
  11. David March Coolidge
    David March
    @ToryWarWriter

    I Walton (View Comment):

    For some reason this article brought to mind the fall of Rojas Pinilla in Colombia, but sort of reversed.Rojas was put in charge by the powers that be who were fighting each other to the death, tearing the country apart, but like all dictators after bringing peace he didn’t want to leave. The story I heard from a key journalist in the midst of it all, once it was clear both parties and almost all of the people wanted to get rid of him, a broad and deep anti Rojas movement exploded forth.The movement was real, country wide, and supported by ordinary families when the verbal story spread country wide overnight that Rojas had fallen. He hadn’t, the journalist told me, but the celebration was so wide and deep there was nothing Rojas could do except step down.

    So what reminded me of this?It’s sort of on its head.The people sit quietly wanting Trump to have won, and real evidence is that he did in a landslide, butdemocrats, organized interests and the bureaucracy asserts Biden won and everyone sort of goes along, including the courts and both party leaders who found Trump troublesome to the way they like to exercise political power.

    So there may be nothing similar, but it popped in my mind as I read this excellent article because in the Colombian case mass movement was ignited and worked against a narrowly supported dictator.In our democratic system voters elected Trump but the establishment is asserting and the press is confirming that Biden won.I don’t think we can sit around and if we do I don’t think we’ll get another chance for many years to unseat the top down dictatorship that will be deepened and expanded.

    –As I have pointed out to a lot of people, that is what those in power want you to believe.  But every day I see more and more people realizing that something is wrong and are taking steps to do something about it.

    –7 States have sent duel sets of electors for the first time in nearly 150 years!  Trump will be giving monthly rallies forever about how this election was stolen from him and from all his voters.

    –I dont know what the establishment thought was going to happen?  But clearly they are clueless and ripe for being knocked over by a revolutionary moment.  Reminds me a lot of the 1991 coup against Gorbachev.  

    • #41
  12. MichaelKennedy Inactive
    MichaelKennedy
    @MichaelKennedy

    MarciN (View Comment):

    There are many Boston connections between the article authors and editor of the journal. I picked up on the language and connections from just the first paragraph alone. Then I looked them up, and I found that I am right about the connections. The inspiration for this strategy has been a past president of Dartmouth Jim Yong Kim, who is a friend (Kim Yong is a cofounder of Partners in Health, a nonprofit that works on healthcare issues in developing countries) of Charlie Baker and who wrote this piece last winter for the New Yorker.

    I understand what Jim Yong Kim is driving at and what Baker has been trying to accomplish. But Jim Yong Kim‘s great success in his pre-president-of-Dartmouth life was more with blood-borne diseases–Ebola and HIV. When I read the article in the New Yorker last spring, although I admired his “We can do this!” spirit, I did not think the methods he described would help very much in controlling a cough-borne disease. And I still don’t.

    As far South Korea is concerned, which is where Kim Yong is from and of which he is, of course, justifiably proud, it is very likely they had a milder or attenuated strain than the one that New York and Lombardy had. And as you’ve stated, the two countries are simply not comparable.

    snip

    Sadly, we in the United States created something with a wish and prayer: the Centers for Disease Control, the operative word being “Control.” And we keep trying to use its means and methods that have been successful for some health problems for upper respiratory illnesses. Instead, for those particular health issues, we should have pursued treatment instead of prevention.

    In my humble opinion, the CDC has never gotten a good handle on upper respiratory diseases. And as proof of that, I offer a cursory look at the last twenty years of the top ten causes of death in the United States. Two of those slots are occupied with “chronic lower respiratory diseases” and “influenza and pneumonia.” I have thought for a long time now that we human beings will never produce enough vaccines to keep up with the upper respiratory bacteria and viruses. There are so many out there any given moment.

    Okay, I will read the rest of your post. But I had to stop because I know exactly where this line of reasoning is coming from.

    The lockdowns and other measures that have devastated the economy have accomplished one thing.  We have had no flu season this year.  Yes, I am being ironic as I assume the flu cases are all lumped with the more remunerative Covid.

    • #42
  13. MichaelKennedy Inactive
    MichaelKennedy
    @MichaelKennedy

    Nanocelt TheContrarian (View Comment):
    I have been practicing medicine for over 40 years, and about 30 years ago realized that the AMA was corrupt, and it has gotten only increasingly corrupt over the years. About a decade ago the AMA hired a retired Air Force Surgeon General with impeccable integrity to be the executive officer to try to restore the AMA’s reputation; he quit the job after about 6 months saying that there was no possibility of reforming the organization. There is a reason the AMA is based in Chicago.

    By probable coincidence, I recognized AMA corruption about the same time.  I was a delegate from California and quit soon after attending the June convention, which is all about dividing up the spoils.

    • #43
  14. MichaelKennedy Inactive
    MichaelKennedy
    @MichaelKennedy

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    Dr. Craniotomy (View Comment):

    Nanocelt TheContrarian (View Comment):

    No mention of the Great Barrington Dclaration? I’m shocked, shocked!! But then that Declaration, written by three of the pre-eminent epidemiologists in the world, is being shadow banned by Google so these opinion writers may not have heard of it. I would suggest that anyone who wants some reliable insight into sensible policy recommendations for coping with COVID read that instead of the fatuous nonsense emanating from the AMA.

    I have been practicing medicine for over 40 years, and about 30 years ago realized that the AMA was corrupt, and it has gotten only increasingly corrupt over the years. About a decade ago the AMA hired a retired Air Force Surgeon General with impeccable integrity to be the executive officer to try to restore the AMA’s reputation; he quit the job after about 6 months saying that there was no possibility of reforming the organization. There is a reason the AMA is based in Chicago.

    Further, JAMA opinion pieces have been blatantly left wing for as long as I can remember. And as far as pertinent and high quality medical research? You just don’t find that in JAMA. Other major medical journals, such as The New England Journal of Medicine and the Lancet have followed the same sad course.

    This wasn’t even published in JAMA. It’s just the knockoff American Journal of Medicine, impact factor of 4. Although I absolutely agree with you that JAMA, NEJM & Lancet are mostly socialist wastelands now.

    Why are the scientists, who should be basing everything on evidence, attracted to this claptrap?

    Grants !  When they say it is not about the Benjamins, it is about the Benjamins.

    • #44
  15. MichaelKennedy Inactive
    MichaelKennedy
    @MichaelKennedy

    Dr. Bastiat (View Comment):

    Gazpacho Grande’ (View Comment):
    this is a good reminder to not get sick, since these same chowderheads practice medicine.

    No they don’t. They’re academics. They tell the rest of us how to practice medicine.

    Which is another danger of political science…

    Exactly !  I arrived at Dartmouth for a year studying health policy in 1994.  The faculty was still recovering from Hillary’s loss and the 1994 election came along right after I arrived.  These guys had been the source of Hillary care.  No wonder they were depressed.  Not one of them had any experience in front line care.

    • #45
  16. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    If you really wanted to “control” the spread, you might look here:

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/german-town-finds-a-blueprint-for-lowering-covid-19-deaths-11609257334?mod=searchresults_pos1&page=1

    The Great Barrington Declaration enacted.

    • #46
  17. Jules PA Inactive
    Jules PA
    @JulesPA

    MichaelKennedy (View Comment):

    MarciN (View Comment):

    There are many Boston connections between the article authors and editor of the journal. I picked up on the language and connections from just the first paragraph alone. Then I looked them up, and I found that I am right about the connections. The inspiration for this strategy has been a past president of Dartmouth Jim Yong Kim, who is a friend (Kim Yong is a cofounder of Partners in Health, a nonprofit that works on healthcare issues in developing countries) of Charlie Baker and who wrote this piece last winter for the New Yorker.

    I understand what Jim Yong Kim is driving at and what Baker has been trying to accomplish. But Jim Yong Kim‘s great success in his pre-president-of-Dartmouth life was more with blood-borne diseases–Ebola and HIV. When I read the article in the New Yorker last spring, although I admired his “We can do this!” spirit, I did not think the methods he described would help very much in controlling a cough-borne disease. And I still don’t.

    As far South Korea is concerned, which is where Kim Yong is from and of which he is, of course, justifiably proud, it is very likely they had a milder or attenuated strain than the one that New York and Lombardy had. And as you’ve stated, the two countries are simply not comparable.

    snip

    Sadly, we in the United States created something with a wish and prayer: the Centers for Disease Control, the operative word being “Control.” And we keep trying to use its means and methods that have been successful for some health problems for upper respiratory illnesses. Instead, for those particular health issues, we should have pursued treatment instead of prevention.

    In my humble opinion, the CDC has never gotten a good handle on upper respiratory diseases. And as proof of that, I offer a cursory look at the last twenty years of the top ten causes of death in the United States. Two of those slots are occupied with “chronic lower respiratory diseases” and “influenza and pneumonia.” I have thought for a long time now that we human beings will never produce enough vaccines to keep up with the upper respiratory bacteria and viruses. There are so many out there any given moment.

    Okay, I will read the rest of your post. But I had to stop because I know exactly where this line of reasoning is coming from.

    The lockdowns and other measures that have devastated the economy have accomplished one thing. We have had no flu season this year. Yes, I am being ironic as I assume the flu cases are all lumped with the more remunerative Covid.

    Why do I think that lack of testing for flu means there is no flu is a cartload of BS?

    People still die from Pneumonia and Influenza. 

    • #47
  18. MarciN Member
    MarciN
    @MarciN

    MichaelKennedy (View Comment):
    The lockdowns and other measures that have devastated the economy have accomplished one thing. We have had no flu season this year. Yes, I am being ironic as I assume the flu cases are all lumped with the more remunerative Covid.

    You understand, of course, how this is being interpreted by the CDC: “Wow, we may not have ‘flattened the curve’ for the covid-19 virus, but we have found the way to rid the world of influenza.” 

    This is also bugging me. 

    My daughter gave her brother (my son) a blank book for Christmas: Things I Was Right About. Longest-Christmas-morning-laughter-in-our-family laughter record. :-)

    I want one of these books! Because I am positive that the covid-19 virus is somehow overpowering the influenza virus in the war among microorganisms. I can’t prove that, but I’m sure I’m right. :-) Unfortunately, at the moment, the lack of flu cases is being put in the CDC’s win column, to the peril of all of us. :-) 

    • #48
  19. Jules PA Inactive
    Jules PA
    @JulesPA

    MarciN (View Comment):
    Because I am positive that the covid-19 virus is somehow overpowering the influenza virus in the war among microorganisms. I can’t prove that, but I’m sure I’m right. :-) Unfortunately, at the moment, the lack of flu cases is being put in the CDC’s win column, to the peril of all of us. :-) 

    Coroners still report deaths related to P&I.

    • #49
  20. MarciN Member
    MarciN
    @MarciN

    Jules PA (View Comment):
    Coroners still report deaths related to P&I.

    I’m watching this now. It was made recently, December 17, 2020.

    • #50
  21. MarciN Member
    MarciN
    @MarciN

    The video is certainly an interesting presentation. Thank you.

    • #51
  22. MarciN Member
    MarciN
    @MarciN

    The American Society for Microbiology is as interested as I am :-) in the relationship between the influenza and SARS CoV-2 microorganisms. This article was written in October 2020:

    We know that coinfection with multiple respiratory viruses is possible. More specifically, coinfection has been reported for SARS-CoV-2 and respiratory syncytial virus (RSV), rhinovirus, other Coronaviridae and the flu. A study recently published in the Journal of Medical Virology showed that coinfection of SARS-CoV-2 and influenza virus was common during the initial COVID-19 outbreak in Wuhan, China, and patients who experienced coinfection had a higher risk of poor health outcomes.

    However, the reported incidence of seasonal influenza has been uncharacteristically low in the southern hemisphere so far this year. In July 2019 (peak influenza season in the southern hemisphere), most regions were reporting greater than 10% test positivity for seasonal influenza, with the most heavily hit areas reporting greater than 30% test positivity. But as of July 20, 2020, no region has reported more than 10% test positivity, and several regions, including Southeast Asia, and parts of South America and Africa have reported 0 cases of the flu.

    The reason for this is unclear. It may be that the case load simply appears lower because of insufficient testing and reporting, or that the social distancing meausres put in place to help stop the transmission of SARS-CoV-2 have reduced the transmission of influenza virus as well. Whether either virus causes viral interference (competitively suppresses replication of the other virus) or modulates disease severity is of great interest. Because SARS-CoV-2 and influenza virus both infect cells of the respiratory tract, they might have to compete for resources (including cells to infect) during coinfection. As previously noted, the host cell receptors are unique for each of these viruses. Sialic acid is more prevalent than ACE2, but the binding affinity of S protein to ACE2 is remarkably strong. It is possible, but remains uncertain, whether either of these factors contributes a competitive advantage.
     
    The host immune response presents another variable worth considering. Does a host’s immune response to one virus make it more difficult for the other to cause infection? Or is an already immunocompromised host left more vulnerable to secondary infection? Only time and experience will tell. But taking a closer look at disease characteristics can help inform diagnosis and treatment plans as we move forward.

    • #52
  23. Clifford A. Brown Member
    Clifford A. Brown
    @CliffordBrown

    As I have called them for years, #LabCoatLeft — that term sprang to mind when I saw the video of all the leftists on the White House lawn putting on white lab coats for the ObamaCare celebration.

    • #53
  24. Jules PA Inactive
    Jules PA
    @JulesPA

    MarciN (View Comment):

    The American Society for Microbiology is as interested as I am :-) in the relationship between the influenza and SARS CoV-2 microorganisms. This article was written in October 2020:

    We know that coinfection with multiple respiratory viruses is possible. More specifically, coinfection has been reported for SARS-CoV-2 and respiratory syncytial virus (RSV), rhinovirus, other Coronaviridae and the flu. A study recently published in the Journal of Medical Virology showed that coinfection of SARS-CoV-2 and influenza virus was common during the initial COVID-19 outbreak in Wuhan, China, and patients who experienced coinfection had a higher risk of poor health outcomes.

    However, the reported incidence of seasonal influenza has been uncharacteristically low in the southern hemisphere so far this year. In July 2019 (peak influenza season in the southern hemisphere), most regions were reporting greater than 10% test positivity for seasonal influenza, with the most heavily hit areas reporting greater than 30% test positivity. But as of July 20, 2020, no region has reported more than 10% test positivity, and several regions, including Southeast Asia, and parts of South America and Africa have reported 0 cases of the flu.

    The reason for this is unclear. It may be that the case load simply appears lower because of insufficient testing and reporting, or that the social distancing meausres put in place to help stop the transmission of SARS-CoV-2 have reduced the transmission of influenza virus as well. Whether either virus causes viral interference (competitively suppresses replication of the other virus) or modulates disease severity is of great interest. Because SARS-CoV-2 and influenza virus both infect cells of the respiratory tract, they might have to compete for resources (including cells to infect) during coinfection. As previously noted, the host cell receptors are unique for each of these viruses. Sialic acid is more prevalent than ACE2, but the binding affinity of S protein to ACE2 is remarkably strong. It is possible, but remains uncertain, whether either of these factors contributes a competitive advantage.

    The host immune response presents another variable worth considering. Does a host’s immune response to one virus make it more difficult for the other to cause infection? Or is an already immunocompromised host left more vulnerable to secondary infection? Only time and experience will tell. But taking a closer look at disease characteristics can help inform diagnosis and treatment plans as we move forward.

    @MarciN go back to JohnEHoover for more exposition how WORLDWIDE reporting of the flu stopped in March. 

    The data used is from coroners, on Pneumonia & Influenzema and Covid. 

    Additionally, note that the CDC seems to now aggregate published data for P&I and covid. 

    #iamjohncullen uses data buried in the CDC, as a check against what the CDC puts on the front of its website. 

     

    • #54
  25. MichaelKennedy Inactive
    MichaelKennedy
    @MichaelKennedy

    Jules PA (View Comment):

    MichaelKennedy (View Comment):

    MarciN (View Comment):

    There are many Boston connections between the article authors and editor of the journal. I picked up on the language and connections from just the first paragraph alone. Then I looked them up, and I found that I am right about the connections. The inspiration for this strategy has been a past president of Dartmouth Jim Yong Kim, who is a friend (Kim Yong is a cofounder of Partners in Health, a nonprofit that works on healthcare issues in developing countries) of Charlie Baker and who wrote this piece last winter for the New Yorker.

    I understand what Jim Yong Kim is driving at and what Baker has been trying to accomplish. But Jim Yong Kim‘s great success in his pre-president-of-Dartmouth life was more with blood-borne diseases–Ebola and HIV. When I read the article in the New Yorker last spring, although I admired his “We can do this!” spirit, I did not think the methods he described would help very much in controlling a cough-borne disease. And I still don’t.

    As far South Korea is concerned, which is where Kim Yong is from and of which he is, of course, justifiably proud, it is very likely they had a milder or attenuated strain than the one that New York and Lombardy had. And as you’ve stated, the two countries are simply not comparable.

    snip

    Sadly, we in the United States created something with a wish and prayer: the Centers for Disease Control, the operative word being “Control.” And we keep trying to use its means and methods that have been successful for some health problems for upper respiratory illnesses. Instead, for those particular health issues, we should have pursued treatment instead of prevention.

    In my humble opinion, the CDC has never gotten a good handle on upper respiratory diseases. And as proof of that, I offer a cursory look at the last twenty years of the top ten causes of death in the United States. Two of those slots are occupied with “chronic lower respiratory diseases” and “influenza and pneumonia.” I have thought for a long time now that we human beings will never produce enough vaccines to keep up with the upper respiratory bacteria and viruses. There are so many out there any given moment.

    Okay, I will read the rest of your post. But I had to stop because I know exactly where this line of reasoning is coming from.

    The lockdowns and other measures that have devastated the economy have accomplished one thing. We have had no flu season this year. Yes, I am being ironic as I assume the flu cases are all lumped with the more remunerative Covid.

    Why do I think that lack of testing for flu means there is no flu is a cartload of BS?

    People still die from Pneumonia and Influenza.

    My point is that those deaths are included in the WuFlu numbers.

    • #55
  26. MichaelKennedy Inactive
    MichaelKennedy
    @MichaelKennedy

    Clifford A. Brown (View Comment):

    As I have called them for years, #LabCoatLeft — that term sprang to mind when I saw the video of all the leftists on the White House lawn putting on white lab coats for the ObamaCare celebration.

    Half of whom were not MDs.  The few MDs were young women employed by hospitals.

    • #56
  27. Basil Fawlty Member
    Basil Fawlty
    @BasilFawlty

    MichaelKennedy (View Comment):

    Clifford A. Brown (View Comment):

    As I have called them for years, #LabCoatLeft — that term sprang to mind when I saw the video of all the leftists on the White House lawn putting on white lab coats for the ObamaCare celebration.

    Half of whom were not MDs. The few MDs were young women employed by hospitals.

    Deployed.

    • #57
  28. Jules PA Inactive
    Jules PA
    @JulesPA

    MichaelKennedy (View Comment):
    My point is that those deaths are included in the WuFlu numbers.

    Well they are, going forward. Last year thise data were not aggregated. But the CDC is conveniently blurring the lines now. 

     

    • #58
  29. Muleskinner, Weasel Wrangler Member
    Muleskinner, Weasel Wrangler
    @Muleskinner

    I just interviewed a kid today who had a Bachelors in Econ and just finished a Masters in Poly Sci. What I discovered was that the work he was doing was really micro-based Behavioral Economics. So I might be able to use him after all. 

    • #59
  30. MarciN Member
    MarciN
    @MarciN

    Jules PA (View Comment):

    MichaelKennedy (View Comment):
    My point is that those deaths are included in the WuFlu numbers.

    Well they are, going forward. Last year these data were not aggregated. But the CDC is conveniently blurring the lines now.

     

    I know there’s been a lot of bad testing and reporting on the flu and SARS CoV-2 viruses this past year.

    And it’s always been that way. I have had a long-standing beef with the CDC for years. I blame them partly for the too-high number of pediatric deaths from “flu” each year. In their desire to push the cheap flu shots, a desire I appreciate, and in their desire to keep antibiotic-resistant superbugs from developing, again, a desire I appreciate, they have pressured physicians to not prescribe antibiotics and parents to not ask for them. They do not talk about secondary infections clearly and emphatically enough.

    Parents should be told every flu season how to identify a secondary infection. And doctors should be prescribing antibiotics if the child is way too sick and got that sick too quickly. Because they have muddied the information they give out on the flu, the result has been that (a) doctors in ERs are being too slow to prescribe antibiotics for secondary infections that occur in children who have the flu and (b) parents do not know what to watch for. I think there are far too many pediatric deaths each year from “flu” when we have antibiotics that will treat these secondary infections if they are caught in time. 

    And I know the testing has been screwed up this year–it was an unusually warm year globally this year (I am not a climate change nut, but for some reason, sun spots or underwater volcanoes, it was warm), and there were more microorganisms than usual, which was the reason the first tests were rejected by the CDC–they were picking up too much noise and not enough signal. 

    And I also believe that way back in December and January, the uptick in flu cases we were seeing everywhere in northern United States (a big uptick on Cape Cod at that time) was not the flu but the covid-19 virus. That’s my guess. How would we know? There were no tests until March. The symptoms look the same by the time people arrive at death’s door.

    Then the hospitals started counting flu deaths as covid-19 deaths.

    These statistics have been so unreliable that I stopped looking at them. 

    All that said, the disappearance of the flu is somewhat global, so it’s not the fault of our CDC or the WHO. It really seems to have disappeared. And one reason might be some interaction between the covid-19 virus and the influenza virus that occurs within a host. Perhaps the covid-19 virus is creating an inhospitable environment somehow. I just find it really interesting. :-) 

    • #60
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