Recommended by Ricochet Members Created with Sketch. My Kid’s School Re-opening Plans

 

The prep school for #4 son (#2 and #3 graduated from there, attending High School after homeschooling) had a big webinar on all the things they are doing to re-open, including following all CDC suggestions: masks, distancing, the works. I could not watch much. Instead, I wrote the below to the headmaster:

Dear [Headmaster]

I appreciate that you are in an impossible situation. Yet I feel that I must share my point of view, even though it does not follow the current orthodoxy.

While we don’t have any certainty (from my perspective, we lack absolute certainty for any decision we make in life), I have no doubt that having COVID makes it unlikely or impossible to have it again for some months, and possibly much longer – otherwise active infection numbers would not be declining in areas previously infected. In other words, we are seeing effective herd immunities.

Additionally, and very importantly: Children are not very good spreaders of this virus. The less symptomatic the person, the less of a threat they pose to others.

Without school, workers cannot work and teachers cannot teach.

For me, this adds up to a simple conclusion: I recognize that there is no way to guarantee anyone’s safety. I want [Runt] in school. I don’t support physical distancing; boys interact through contact. I think that if kids must wear masks, they should be able to do so as a way of voicing protest (for whatever non-profane message they care to make – because covering one’s face is dehumanizing). I want the full [School] experience for my sons.

People who are at-risk must take precautions and act accordingly. Indeed, if I had my druthers, I’d recommend that [School] maximize free will: accept those who wish to attend without masks, those who wear masks, and those who are unwilling to come onto campus. Waivers could be extended to limit liability. And it would be great if teachers who wear masks could choose from the transparent options so kids can much more readily see expressions.

This is the first time in history that we have quarantined healthy people. From my perspective, this entire episode will go down in history as comparable to the Tulip Mania, and I am ashamed that so many otherwise-rational people have fallen for it. I look forward to supporting [School] choosing to prioritize itself and its students over the mass psychosis that is paralyzing the world. I pray it comes sooner rather than later.

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  1. RushBabe49 Thatcher

    So will your kid be attending the school with its current regulations? If not, where would he go?

    Is there any chance that all the kids would protest by not wearing masks? What would happen if they did that?

    • #1
    • July 8, 2020, at 4:39 PM PDT
    • 4 likes
  2. Sisyphus Coolidge
    Sisyphus Joined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    The lessons they are teaching our children are not the ones they think they are teaching. But they seldom are.

    • #2
    • July 8, 2020, at 4:56 PM PDT
    • 10 likes
  3. Susan Quinn Contributor

    Your request is rational and dignified, @iwe. I suspect, however, that they will ignore it or provide you with a foolish reply. Then you’ll have to decide your next step. #4 son just might be up for a challenge!

    • #3
    • July 8, 2020, at 5:01 PM PDT
    • 4 likes
  4. iWe Reagan
    iWe Joined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    RushBabe49 (View Comment):

    So will your kid be attending the school with its current regulations? If not, where would he go?

    Is there any chance that all the kids would protest by not wearing masks? What would happen if they did that?

    The school has a dress code, and I respect that in general. #4 wants to wear a Trump mask or a Soviet gas mask (we own a few).

    • #4
    • July 8, 2020, at 5:14 PM PDT
    • 14 likes
  5. Jules PA Member

    iWe: this entire episode will go down in history as comparable to the Tulip Mania, and I am ashamed that so many otherwise-rational people have fallen for it.

    I have been thinking this often over the past few months. 

    This mania is exhausting, even as an observer. 

    • #5
    • July 8, 2020, at 6:38 PM PDT
    • 6 likes
  6. DonG (skeptic) Coolidge

    And now we will all get a demonstration as to which schools are controlled by Leftists.

    • #6
    • July 8, 2020, at 6:38 PM PDT
    • 3 likes
  7. Limestone Cowboy Coolidge
    Limestone Cowboy Joined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    DonG (skeptic) (View Comment):

    And now we will all get a demonstration as to which schools are controlled by Leftists.

    Or controlled by school district lawyers..

    • #7
    • July 8, 2020, at 8:43 PM PDT
    • 5 likes
  8. MiMac Thatcher

    Sorry-dignified but incorrect. People w/no to few symptoms are the problem- while they might not be highly infectious they are, at least, ~50% of the infected patients. That is the crux of our problem- we cannot depend on isolating those with symptoms to stop the spread. In truth the severely ill don’t spread it at this time- flat on your back you don’t interact much. Additionally, the question of who do you quarantine depends on your ability to test & the believed disease prevalence and the severity-sometimes you do quarantine those not clinically ill. Unfortunately, we probably can’t depend on “testing our way out of this”. Masks & distancing are what little we have at this point and should be utilized to assist reopening- they go together in a responsible system. But I repeat myself- on has to in order to fight an echo chamber of fallacies.

    • #8
    • July 9, 2020, at 8:23 AM PDT
    • 2 likes
  9. Percival Thatcher
    Percival Joined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    Limestone Cowboy (View Comment):

    DonG (skeptic) (View Comment):

    And now we will all get a demonstration as to which schools are controlled by Leftists.

    Or controlled by school district lawyers..

    Same thing.

    • #9
    • July 9, 2020, at 8:32 AM PDT
    • 2 likes
  10. ToryWarWriter Thatcher

    I also think this will be like Tulip Mania where future generations just shaking there head over our clear idiocy.

    • #10
    • July 9, 2020, at 8:56 AM PDT
    • 5 likes
  11. Hammer, The Member

    I wrote a similar letter to our superintendent, who wrote back saying that he agrees, but that the state is requiring this for the school to open. We had a nice conversation; I told him that I appreciate the school, and that I very much want my kids there, but that I cannot subject them to what I believe to be state-mandated child abuse. I asked to have them unenrolled and placed on a waiting list, and said that they would be back in school the day that they are permitted to behave like human beings again. In the meantime, we will be homeschooling.

    We already know that mandating masks for adults is absurd – putting them on children is sheer insanity.

    Last night, I sat and talked with another parent (also a 3rd grade teacher) at baseball practice (the club team decided to start practicing again, even though there are no tournaments for them to play in), about the effect that all of this has really had on children. These effects are numerous, and far more harmful than any risk posed by cv19. But we have lost all perspective, and by looking at this virus in a vacuum, we are behaving irrationally. I do predict that the minute people are released into the world and once again weigh their various risks and responses, this virus will be relegated back to where it belongs, right alongside the ordinary flu. But that cannot happen until we reassert our legal freedoms and actually stand up to governors who have declared themselves emperors.

    • #11
    • July 9, 2020, at 9:03 AM PDT
    • 5 likes
  12. Hammer, The Member

    Limestone Cowboy (View Comment):

    DonG (skeptic) (View Comment):

    And now we will all get a demonstration as to which schools are controlled by Leftists.

    Or controlled by school district lawyers..

    In fairness to some of those lawyers… I work at a law firm that represents school districts. The lawyer generally says that it is up to the school to make decisions. He only gets involved when they ask for his advice on specific issues. Our current problem is a result of state control, and that comes from the executive branch in most states.

    • #12
    • July 9, 2020, at 9:05 AM PDT
    • 4 likes
  13. Hammer, The Member

    MiMac (View Comment):

    Sorry-dignified but incorrect. People w/no to few symptoms are the problem- while they might not be highly infectious they are, at least, ~50% of the infected patients. That is the crux of our problem- we cannot depend on isolating those with symptoms to stop the spread. In truth the severely ill don’t spread it at this time- flat on your back you don’t interact much. Additionally, the question of who do you quarantine depends on your ability to test & the believed disease prevalence and the severity-sometimes you do quarantine those not clinically ill. Unfortunately, we probably can’t depend on “testing our way out of this”. Masks & distancing are what little we have at this point and should be utilized to assist reopening- they go together in a responsible system. But I repeat myself- on has to in order to fight an echo chamber of fallacies.

    … or to join the echo chamber of fallacies, such as those repeated in your comment and ad nauseum. Masks and distancing, even if they work, are poor solutions when applied to the healthy population. They won’t eradicate a disease, they will hinder its eradication. If they truly did work, the only responsible thing would be to use them on the vulnerable while allowing this thing to burn out elsewhere (though numbers everywhere indicate that cv19 is already burning out in spite of our best efforts to prolong the problem). That those people who are pushing masks/distancing are not promoting this only indicates that they don’t even believe their own garbage. It has become a religious experience that has far more to do with the need to feel emotionally supported by those around you than it does to do with any sort of legitimate scientific problem-solving.

    • #13
    • July 9, 2020, at 9:11 AM PDT
    • 4 likes
  14. MiMac Thatcher

    Hammer, The (View Comment):

    MiMac (View Comment):

    Sorry-dignified but incorrect. People w/no to few symptoms are the problem- while they might not be highly infectious they are, at least, ~50% of the infected patients. That is the crux of our problem- we cannot depend on isolating those with symptoms to stop the spread. In truth the severely ill don’t spread it at this time- flat on your back you don’t interact much. Additionally, the question of who do you quarantine depends on your ability to test & the believed disease prevalence and the severity-sometimes you do quarantine those not clinically ill. Unfortunately, we probably can’t depend on “testing our way out of this”. Masks & distancing are what little we have at this point and should be utilized to assist reopening- they go together in a responsible system. But I repeat myself- on has to in order to fight an echo chamber of fallacies.

    … or to join the echo chamber of fallacies, such as those repeated in your comment and ad nauseum. Masks and distancing, even if they work, are poor solutions when applied to the healthy population. They won’t eradicate a disease, they will hinder its eradication. If they truly did work, the only responsible thing would be to use them on the vulnerable while allowing this thing to burn out elsewhere (though numbers everywhere indicate that cv19 is already burning out in spite of our best efforts to prolong the problem). That those people who are pushing masks/distancing are not promoting this only indicates that they don’t even believe their own garbage. It has become a religious experience that has far more to do with the need to feel emotionally supported by those around you than it does to do with any sort of legitimate scientific problem-solving.

    How do u identify the infected if they are pre/asymptomatic? The answer is you can’t w/o a testing regime that isn’t possible. Furthermore, if the claims of aerosol transmission are correct the problem is much worse.

    • #14
    • July 9, 2020, at 9:25 AM PDT
    • 1 like
    • This comment has been edited.
  15. Stina Member

    The schools could be more lax with homebound illness, providing ways for children with coughs and fevers to get their schoolwork through a portal similar to what they had during covid.

    As it is, there’s a bizarre zero tolerance policy for illness and a very stringent excused absence policy that requires every fever or cough to have a doctor’s note to gain access to missed schoolwork or make up grades.

    • #15
    • July 9, 2020, at 9:55 AM PDT
    • 1 like
  16. Hammer, The Member

    MiMac (View Comment):

    Hammer, The (View Comment):

    MiMac (View Comment):

    Sorry-dignified but incorrect. People w/no to few symptoms are the problem- while they might not be highly infectious they are, at least, ~50% of the infected patients. That is the crux of our problem- we cannot depend on isolating those with symptoms to stop the spread. In truth the severely ill don’t spread it at this time- flat on your back you don’t interact much. Additionally, the question of who do you quarantine depends on your ability to test & the believed disease prevalence and the severity-sometimes you do quarantine those not clinically ill. Unfortunately, we probably can’t depend on “testing our way out of this”. Masks & distancing are what little we have at this point and should be utilized to assist reopening- they go together in a responsible system. But I repeat myself- on has to in order to fight an echo chamber of fallacies.

    … or to join the echo chamber of fallacies, such as those repeated in your comment and ad nauseum. Masks and distancing, even if they work, are poor solutions when applied to the healthy population. They won’t eradicate a disease, they will hinder its eradication. If they truly did work, the only responsible thing would be to use them on the vulnerable while allowing this thing to burn out elsewhere (though numbers everywhere indicate that cv19 is already burning out in spite of our best efforts to prolong the problem). That those people who are pushing masks/distancing are not promoting this only indicates that they don’t even believe their own garbage. It has become a religious experience that has far more to do with the need to feel emotionally supported by those around you than it does to do with any sort of legitimate scientific problem-solving.

    How do u identify the infected if they are pre/asymptomatic? The answer is you can’t w/o a testing regime that isn’t possible. Furthermore, if the claims of aerosol transmission are correct the problem is much worse.

    You don’t need to identify the infected. If masks work, they work. The whole “I wear a mask for you, you wear one for me,” is pure demagoguery of the worst sort, kind of like my governor’s tactic that amounts to “you disobey, I punish someone else.” If the mask works, you put it on the vulnerable to protect them.

    If claims of aerosol transmission are correct, that is fantastic news. If aerosol transmission exists, and the virus is as deadly as you think, we would all be dead by now. You have to change your assumptions as facts dictate, though. If aerosol transmission exists, and people aren’t dying in droves, this thing is not nearly as deadly and is probably so far widespread that it will be gone in short order. Actually, the numbers do point in that direction.

    • #16
    • July 9, 2020, at 10:02 AM PDT
    • 6 likes
  17. MiMac Thatcher

    Hammer, The (View Comment):

    MiMac (View Comment):

    Hammer, The (View Comment):

    MiMac (View Comment):

    Sorry-dignified but incorrect. People w/no to few symptoms are the problem- while they might not be highly infectious they are, at least, ~50% of the infected patients. That is the crux of our problem- we cannot depend on isolating those with symptoms to stop the spread. In truth the severely ill don’t spread it at this time- flat on your back you don’t interact much. Additionally, the question of who do you quarantine depends on your ability to test & the believed disease prevalence and the severity-sometimes you do quarantine those not clinically ill. Unfortunately, we probably can’t depend on “testing our way out of this”. Masks & distancing are what little we have at this point and should be utilized to assist reopening- they go together in a responsible system. But I repeat myself- on has to in order to fight an echo chamber of fallacies.

    … or to join the echo chamber of fallacies, such as those repeated in your comment and ad nauseum. Masks and distancing, even if they work, are poor solutions when applied to the healthy population. They won’t eradicate a disease, they will hinder its eradication. If they truly did work, the only responsible thing would be to use them on the vulnerable while allowing this thing to burn out elsewhere (though numbers everywhere indicate that cv19 is already burning out in spite of our best efforts to prolong the problem). That those people who are pushing masks/distancing are not promoting this only indicates that they don’t even believe their own garbage. It has become a religious experience that has far more to do with the need to feel emotionally supported by those around you than it does to do with any sort of legitimate scientific problem-solving.

    How do u identify the infected if they are pre/asymptomatic? The answer is you can’t w/o a testing regime that isn’t possible. Furthermore, if the claims of aerosol transmission are correct the problem is much worse.

    You don’t need to identify the infected. If masks work, they work. The whole “I wear a mask for you, you wear one for me,” is pure demagoguery of the worst sort, kind of like my governor’s tactic that amounts to “you disobey, I punish someone else.” If the mask works, you put it on the vulnerable to protect them.

    If claims of aerosol transmission are correct, that is fantastic news. If aerosol transmission exists, and the virus is as deadly as you think, we would all be dead by now. You have to change your assumptions as facts dictate, though. If aerosol transmission exists, and people aren’t dying in droves, this thing is not nearly as deadly and is probably so far widespread that it will be gone in short order. Actually, the numbers do point in that direction.

    We are over 130K+ dead- I think that is plenty deadly. It is likely we will see a significant number of more deaths-in my area the # of ICU patients with COVID pneumonia has increased 2-3x in the last week & COVID admissions are up 4-5x in the late 7-10 days-and we are not a “hotspot”. We have had few deaths but the ICU patients are critically ill by anyone’s standards. Since you oppose masks & social distancing and can’t identify those who can transmit it you, by default, advocate letting many more become infected & possibly die w/o any serious attempt to ameliorate it. I think that at least callous. IMHO the best approach is masks & social distancing & continued work on vaccines, meds, & monoclonal antibodies. I find it untenable for our society to wash its hands while many die-I also find draconian lockdowns misguided but cannot remain silent while letting my fellow citizens die w/o simple, low cost, measures such as masks being utilized to reduce the toll. We lack great tools to fight the coronavirus at this point- but waiting for perfect while doing nothing is worse than “better is the enemy of the good”. This isn’t the Black Death but it sure isn’t the flu either.

    • #17
    • July 9, 2020, at 10:41 AM PDT
    • 2 likes
    • This comment has been edited.
  18. Hammer, The Member

    MiMac (View Comment):

    You don’t need to identify the infected. If masks work, they work. The whole “I wear a mask for you, you wear one for me,” is pure demagoguery of the worst sort, kind of like my governor’s tactic that amounts to “you disobey, I punish someone else.” If the mask works, you put it on the vulnerable to protect them.

    If claims of aerosol transmission are correct, that is fantastic news. If aerosol transmission exists, and the virus is as deadly as you think, we would all be dead by now. You have to change your assumptions as facts dictate, though. If aerosol transmission exists, and people aren’t dying in droves, this thing is not nearly as deadly and is probably so far widespread that it will be gone in short order. Actually, the numbers do point in that direction.

    We are over 130K+ dead- I think that is plenty deadly. It is likely we will see a significant number of more deaths-in my area the # of ICU patients with COVID pneumonia has increased 2-3x in the last week & COVID admissions are up 4-5x in the late 7-10 days-and we are not a “hotspot”. We have had few deaths but the ICU patients are critically ill by anyone’s standards. Since you oppose masks & social distancing and can’t identify those who can transmit it you, by default, advocate letting many more become infected & possibly die w/o any serious attempt to ameliorate it. I think that at least callous. IMHO the best approach is masks & social distancing & continued work on vaccines, meds, & monoclonal antibodies. I find it untenable for our society to wash its hands while many die-I also find draconian lockdowns misguided but cannot remain silent while letting my fellow citizens die w/o simple, low cost, measures such as masks being utilized to reduce the toll. We lack great tools to fight the coronavirus at this point- but waiting for perfect while doing nothing is worse than “better is the enemy of the good”. This isn’t the Black Death but it sure isn’t the flu either.

    This is why I said we are looking at this in a vacuum, which makes our response all that more unreasonable. We “wash our hands while people die” every year, and the people being killed by covid are overwhelmingly the same people being killed by those other things that we accept. These actions that you believe are low-cost are absolutely not low-cost, but ultimately, the reason the United States (and Western culture in general) has been so important, and is so absolutely necessary to preserve, is because we have generally believed that those sorts of value judgments are reserved for individuals, not mandated by governments. If you feel that these are low-cost high-benefit outcomes, you should do them. You are also free to convince others. You are not free to force it.

    • #18
    • July 9, 2020, at 12:15 PM PDT
    • 2 likes
  19. MiMac Thatcher

    Hammer, The (View Comment):

    MiMac (View Comment):

    You don’t need to identify the infected. If masks work, they work. The whole “I wear a mask for you, you wear one for me,” is pure demagoguery of the worst sort, kind of like my governor’s tactic that amounts to “you disobey, I punish someone else.” If the mask works, you put it on the vulnerable to protect them.

    If claims of aerosol transmission are correct, that is fantastic news. If aerosol transmission exists, and the virus is as deadly as you think, we would all be dead by now. You have to change your assumptions as facts dictate, though. If aerosol transmission exists, and people aren’t dying in droves, this thing is not nearly as deadly and is probably so far widespread that it will be gone in short order. Actually, the numbers do point in that direction.

    We are over 130K+ dead- I think that is plenty deadly. It is likely we will see a significant number of more deaths-in my area the # of ICU patients with COVID pneumonia has increased 2-3x in the last week & COVID admissions are up 4-5x in the late 7-10 days-and we are not a “hotspot”. We have had few deaths but the ICU patients are critically ill by anyone’s standards. Since you oppose masks & social distancing and can’t identify those who can transmit it you, by default, advocate letting many more become infected & possibly die w/o any serious attempt to ameliorate it. I think that at least callous. IMHO the best approach is masks & social distancing & continued work on vaccines, meds, & monoclonal antibodies. I find it untenable for our society to wash its hands while many die-I also find draconian lockdowns misguided but cannot remain silent while letting my fellow citizens die w/o simple, low cost, measures such as masks being utilized to reduce the toll. We lack great tools to fight the coronavirus at this point- but waiting for perfect while doing nothing is worse than “better is the enemy of the good”. This isn’t the Black Death but it sure isn’t the flu either.

    This is why I said we are looking at this in a vacuum, which makes our response all that more unreasonable. We “wash our hands while people die” every year, and the people being killed by covid are overwhelmingly the same people being killed by those other things that we accept. These actions that you believe are low-cost are absolutely not low-cost, but ultimately, the reason the United States (and Western culture in general) has been so important, and is so absolutely necessary to preserve, is because we have generally believed that those sorts of value judgments are reserved for individuals, not mandated by governments. If you feel that these are low-cost high-benefit outcomes, you should do them. You are also free to convince others. You are not free to force it.

    You mistake freedom as freedom of choice vs freedom to excellence & human flourishing 

    • #19
    • July 9, 2020, at 12:57 PM PDT
    • 1 like
  20. Limestone Cowboy Coolidge
    Limestone Cowboy Joined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    Hammer, The (View Comment):

    Limestone Cowboy (View Comment):

    DonG (skeptic) (View Comment):

    And now we will all get a demonstration as to which schools are controlled by Leftists.

    Or controlled by school district lawyers..

    In fairness to some of those lawyers… I work at a law firm that represents school districts. The lawyer generally says that it is up to the school to make decisions. He only gets involved when they ask for his advice on specific issues. Our current problem is a result of state control, and that comes from the executive branch in most states.

    I’m not a lawyer and I certainly didn’t intend to denigrate lawyers. But if I understand their role correctly, the client school asks for advice on how to mitigate financial liability, say, on playground equipment. The lawyers will know and advise that the surest way to eliminate that risk is to eliminate playground equipment. Which is both absolutely true and absolutely stupid at the same time, since encouraging kids to blow off steam during recess undoubtedly improves the teaching environment. But the lawyer is consulted over risk mitigation and not on effective teaching environments.

    At my daughter’s elementary school, they did just that, on advice from legal counsel and eliminated playground swings after a boy I knew, doing what boys seem wired to do, got a serious injury whilst showing off on the swings.

    In the case of the Wuhan virus I’m sure that many schools are very much afraid of the legal liability arising from school reopening and lawyers will point out that the surest way to eliminate that liability is not to reopen. If they do reopen in the fall, and if any number of students (or teachers) are exposed to the virus (and they will be!) , just wait for the cable TV ads.

    If you or your child were exposed to WuFlu due to your school recklessly reopening despite the known risk, you may be entitled to substantial compensation. Contact the attorneys at Barakuda and Sharx at 1-800-GET-CASH now!”

    A school district’s lawyers might well advise the district of such risks and the way to avoid them.

    • #20
    • July 9, 2020, at 1:35 PM PDT
    • 5 likes
    • This comment has been edited.
  21. MiMac Thatcher

    Limestone Cowboy (View Comment):

    Hammer, The (View Comment):

    Limestone Cowboy (View Comment):

    DonG (skeptic) (View Comment):

    And now we will all get a demonstration as to which schools are controlled by Leftists.

    Or controlled by school district lawyers..

    In fairness to some of those lawyers… I work at a law firm that represents school districts. The lawyer generally says that it is up to the school to make decisions. He only gets involved when they ask for his advice on specific issues. Our current problem is a result of state control, and that comes from the executive branch in most states.

    I’m not a lawyer and I certainly didn’t intend to denigrate lawyers. But if I understand their role correctly, the client school asks for advice on how to mitigate financial liability, say, on playground equipment. The lawyers will know and advise that the surest way to eliminate that risk is to eliminate playground equipment. Which is both absolutely true and absolutely stupid at the same time, since encouraging kids to blow off steam during recess undoubtedly improves the teaching environment. But the lawyer is consulted over risk mitigation and not on effective teaching environments.

    At my daughter’s elementary school, they did just that, on advice from legal counsel and eliminated playground swings after a boy I knew, doing what boys seem wired to do, got a serious injury whilst showing off on the swings.

    In the case of the Wuhan virus I’m sure that many schools are very much afraid of the legal liability arising from school reopening and lawyers will point out that the surest way to eliminate that liability is not to reopen. If they do reopen in the fall, and if any number of students (or teachers) are exposed to the virus (and they will be!) , just wait for the cable TV ads.

    If you or your child were exposed to WuFlu due to your school recklessly reopening despite the known risk, you may be entitled to substantial compensation. Contact the attorneys at Barakuda and Sharx at 1-800-GET-CASH now!”

    A school district’s lawyers might well advise the district of such risks and the way to avoid them.

    Unfortunately, Pelosi et al have blocked attempts at providing legal safe havens from coronavirus suits.

    • #21
    • July 9, 2020, at 1:56 PM PDT
    • Like
  22. Limestone Cowboy Coolidge
    Limestone Cowboy Joined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    MiMac (View Comment):

    Limestone Cowboy (View Comment):

    Hammer, The (View Comment):

    Limestone Cowboy (View Comment):

    DonG (skeptic) (View Comment):

    And now we will all get a demonstration as to which schools are controlled by Leftists.

    Or controlled by school district lawyers..

    In fairness to some of those lawyers… I work at a law firm that represents school districts. The lawyer generally says that it is up to the school to make decisions. He only gets involved when they ask for his advice on specific issues. Our current problem is a result of state control, and that comes from the executive branch in most states.

    I’m not a lawyer and I certainly didn’t intend to denigrate lawyers. But if I understand their role correctly, the client school asks for advice on how to mitigate financial liability, say, on playground equipment. The lawyers will know and advise that the surest way to eliminate that risk is to eliminate playground equipment. Which is both absolutely true and absolutely stupid at the same time, since encouraging kids to blow off steam during recess undoubtedly improves the teaching environment. But the lawyer is consulted over risk mitigation and not on effective teaching environments.

    At my daughter’s elementary school, they did just that, on advice from legal counsel and eliminated playground swings after a boy I knew, doing what boys seem wired to do, got a serious injury whilst showing off on the swings.

    In the case of the Wuhan virus I’m sure that many schools are very much afraid of the legal liability arising from school reopening and lawyers will point out that the surest way to eliminate that liability is not to reopen. If they do reopen in the fall, and if any number of students (or teachers) are exposed to the virus (and they will be!) , just wait for the cable TV ads.

    If you or your child were exposed to WuFlu due to your school recklessly reopening despite the known risk, you may be entitled to substantial compensation. Contact the attorneys at Barakuda and Sharx at 1-800-GET-CASH now!”

    A school district’s lawyers might well advise the district of such risks and the way to avoid them.

    Unfortunately, Pelosi et al have blocked attempts at providing legal safe havens from coronavirus suits.

    I’m not surprised. The trial lawyers are major Democrat contributors.

    • #22
    • July 9, 2020, at 2:20 PM PDT
    • Like
  23. Flicker Coolidge

    MiMac (View Comment):

    Hammer, The (View Comment):

    MiMac (View Comment):

    Sorry-dignified but incorrect. People w/no to few symptoms are the problem- while they might not be highly infectious they are, at least, ~50% of the infected patients. That is the crux of our problem- we cannot depend on isolating those with symptoms to stop the spread. In truth the severely ill don’t spread it at this time- flat on your back you don’t interact much. Additionally, the question of who do you quarantine depends on your ability to test & the believed disease prevalence and the severity-sometimes you do quarantine those not clinically ill. Unfortunately, we probably can’t depend on “testing our way out of this”. Masks & distancing are what little we have at this point and should be utilized to assist reopening- they go together in a responsible system. But I repeat myself- on has to in order to fight an echo chamber of fallacies.

    … or to join the echo chamber of fallacies, such as those repeated in your comment and ad nauseum. Masks and distancing, even if they work, are poor solutions when applied to the healthy population. They won’t eradicate a disease, they will hinder its eradication. If they truly did work, the only responsible thing would be to use them on the vulnerable while allowing this thing to burn out elsewhere (though numbers everywhere indicate that cv19 is already burning out in spite of our best efforts to prolong the problem). That those people who are pushing masks/distancing are not promoting this only indicates that they don’t even believe their own garbage. It has become a religious experience that has far more to do with the need to feel emotionally supported by those around you than it does to do with any sort of legitimate scientific problem-solving.

    How do u identify the infected if they are pre/asymptomatic? The answer is you can’t w/o a testing regime that isn’t possible. Furthermore, if the claims of aerosol transmission are correct the problem is much worse.

    Then let’s do the same thing for the annual flu. Let’s prevent every single death. Let’s mandate ‘six feet’ and mandate masks on everyone two years and older while outdoors. And shut down 50% of the economy. Forever. There are learned views that children are essentially immune and are not carriers, and that the older school teachers can be dealt with differently than younger teachers. But waiting for ‘no more deaths’ is waiting for something that is never going to happen.

    • #23
    • July 9, 2020, at 2:49 PM PDT
    • 1 like
    • This comment has been edited.
  24. MiMac Thatcher

    Flicker (View Comment):

    MiMac (View Comment):

    Hammer, The (View Comment):

    MiMac (View Comment):

    Sorry-dignified but incorrect. People w/no to few symptoms are the problem- while they might not be highly infectious they are, at least, ~50% of the infected patients. That is the crux of our problem- we cannot depend on isolating those with symptoms to stop the spread. In truth the severely ill don’t spread it at this time- flat on your back you don’t interact much. Additionally, the question of who do you quarantine depends on your ability to test & the believed disease prevalence and the severity-sometimes you do quarantine those not clinically ill. Unfortunately, we probably can’t depend on “testing our way out of this”. Masks & distancing are what little we have at this point and should be utilized to assist reopening- they go together in a responsible system. But I repeat myself- on has to in order to fight an echo chamber of fallacies.

    … or to join the echo chamber of fallacies, such as those repeated in your comment and ad nauseum. Masks and distancing, even if they work, are poor solutions when applied to the healthy population. They won’t eradicate a disease, they will hinder its eradication. If they truly did work, the only responsible thing would be to use them on the vulnerable while allowing this thing to burn out elsewhere (though numbers everywhere indicate that cv19 is already burning out in spite of our best efforts to prolong the problem). That those people who are pushing masks/distancing are not promoting this only indicates that they don’t even believe their own garbage. It has become a religious experience that has far more to do with the need to feel emotionally supported by those around you than it does to do with any sort of legitimate scientific problem-solving.

    How do u identify the infected if they are pre/asymptomatic? The answer is you can’t w/o a testing regime that isn’t possible. Furthermore, if the claims of aerosol transmission are correct the problem is much worse.

    Then let’s do the same thing for the annual flu. Let’s prevent every single death. Let’s mandate ‘six feet’ and mandate masks on everyone two years and older while outdoors. And shut down 50% of the economy. Forever. There are learned views that children are essentially immune and are not carriers, and that the older school teachers can be dealt with differently than younger teachers. But waiting for ‘no more deaths’ is waiting for something that is never going to happen.

    Slippery slope arguments apply both ways-so if you think about 200K deaths is immaterial then you must think letting 1 million die is an option?

    • #24
    • July 9, 2020, at 3:09 PM PDT
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  25. Flicker Coolidge

    MiMac (View Comment):
    Slippery slope arguments apply both ways-so if you think about 200K deaths is immaterial then you must think letting 1 million die is an option?

    I wasn’t implying a slippery slope but an equivalency. The deaths from the Wuhan flu are what, in reality? Half of what’s been reported? Two thirds? The infection rate is what ten times? twenty times? the reported rate.

    It is not easy to say, or to prove, but the CDC and NIH (as well as states, such as NY) have been complicit in twisting, fabricating and hiding the real data. And this ‘epidemic’ did not arise apart from the US: Fauci actually funded, against the stop order from the 0bama administration, the Wuhan experiments that purportedly created this humanly-altered virus. It is part of the NIH’s activity. How ignoring of the evidence do we have to be to say, Oops! this was just another mistake!?

    My point is that the government health services of the United States is either grossly negligent, or complicit or both, but certainly it has given erroneous and contradictory information from the very beginning — this leads me to say that even the originally-forecast 2.4 million US dead was a deliberate overestimate.

    And now we have ‘surges’ which reasonably arguably) don’t correctly count deaths, or the currently infected, or past infected (or even separate the two), or the multiply-tested. There is no data that I implicitly trust from the government.

    And so therefore there is no plan that I can trust coming from the government.

    But I do know this: masks are ineffective by the physics involved. And they are an abomination to all societies except the burka crowd. And the crippling of the economy is being ignored by the very same people that are twisting the data (see Fauci, among others). And people will die. And we can guess but we don’t know which, or why. And this is not the pandemic we were sold.

    • #25
    • July 9, 2020, at 3:57 PM PDT
    • 3 likes
  26. MiMac Thatcher

    Flicker (View Comment):

    MiMac (View Comment):
    Slippery slope arguments apply both ways-so if you think about 200K deaths is immaterial then you must think letting 1 million die is an option?

    I wasn’t implying a slippery slope but an equivalency. The deaths from the Wuhan flu are what, in reality? Half of what’s been reported? Two thirds? The infection rate is what ten times? twenty times? the reported rate.

    It is not easy to say, or to prove, but the CDC and NIH (as well as states, such as NY) have been complicit in twisting, fabricating and hiding the real data. And this ‘epidemic’ did not arise apart from the US: Fauci actually funded, against the stop order from the 0bama administration, the Wuhan experiments that purportedly created this humanly-altered virus. It is part of the NIH’s activity. How ignoring of the evidence do we have to be to say, Oops! this was just another mistake!?

    My point is that the government health services of the United States is either grossly negligent, or complicit or both, but certainly it has given erroneous and contradictory information from the very beginning — this leads me to say that even the originally-forecast 2.4 million US dead was a deliberate overestimate.

    And now we have ‘surges’ which reasonably arguably) don’t correctly count deaths, or the currently infected, or past infected (or even separate the two), or the multiply-tested. There is no data that I implicitly trust from the government.

    And so therefore there is no plan that I can trust coming from the government.

    But I do know this: masks are ineffective by the physics involved. And they are an abomination to all societies except the burka crowd. And the crippling of the economy is being ignored by the very same people that are twisting the data (see Fauci, among others). And people will die. And we can guess but we don’t know which, or why. And this is not the pandemic we were sold.

    1) you do not know masks are ineffective by physics-physics can only be used to model the situation and the models used are burdened by an enormous number of assumptions which only serve to foreordain the results -GIGO! A few examples- Is it spread by droplets or aerosol (no one knows for sure so your model must make a guess)- if aerosol how long does it stay suspended in the air-like measles?- no one knows. What “pore“ size is effective in a mask-we know N95s work to protect healthcare workers b/c few have caught it-but the N95 pore size greatly exceeds the size of the virus. The best data we have is observational studies from the SARS epidemic & they support the use of masks to reduce contagion. Virtually every expert in the field supports the use of masks- I guess it is a conspiracy so vast even tail gunner Joe McCarthy would blush.

    2)The deaths from COVID are probably underestimated not over estimated- the excess deaths nationally are significantly higher than the COVID deaths. Typically when you shut down elective medical procedures the death rate goes DOWN at first d/t no deaths from complications ( it rises later from the worsening health status of the delayed patients). But we saw an immediate increase in deaths- of which only about 2/3 have been counted as COVID deaths-so we probably missed a significant number of COVID deaths. The bad news is the deaths from lockdown related issues (alcohol and drug abuse related mainly plus depression from worsened economics) plus the added deaths d/t delayed procedures most likely hasn’t really hit us yet-those excess deaths will be added to the COVID excess deaths going forward. I realize many here try to claim that hospitals are fudging the numbers to try to increase their income-but the price for fraud is very high and the feds reward whistleblowers greatly. Bedsides if that strategy was effective hospitals wouldn’t continue to hemorrhage money- medium sized systems are losing $0.5-3M/day.
    3) if you trust no data why do you trust those who claim masks don’t work and the numbers are false-aren’t you trusting them? If you only trust things that confirm your preexisting biases doesn’t that preclude rational decision making?

    • #26
    • July 9, 2020, at 5:06 PM PDT
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    • This comment has been edited.
  27. Flicker Coolidge

    MiMac (View Comment):
    ineffective by physics

    Okay. Substitute ‘physical reality’.

    MiMac (View Comment):
    Virtually every expert in the field supports the use of masks-

    That’s funny, I would have said that more than half the experts in the field are not working in government policy making, and the vast majority of them either do not endorse masks [or equivocate on the utility of masks].

    When hospitals are paid to boost CoV numbers, then we get higher CoV numbers. When CoV takes precedence over any other cause of death in the counting then we get more CoV deaths.
    or equivocate on the utility of masks. When we get former and now inactive cases listed as active cases, then we get more cases. It’s all so sloppy that it can’t be simple error upon error.

    I’m trusting myself, and my own experience, and the simple fact that most, or a great percentage of air breathed in or out goes around the mask, not through it, as evidenced by the fact that everyone’s glasses get fogged — this shows that the air is to an observable extent bypassing any filtration.

    My biases include if a person or group proves he’s misstating the facts, and has reason to deliberately misstate the facts, and admits to misstating the facts, and breaks laws (or at least disobeys orders) that were written to remove danger, and if the ‘science’ keeps changing from week to week — then my bias is to disbelieve them.

    • #27
    • July 9, 2020, at 6:06 PM PDT
    • 2 likes
    • This comment has been edited.
  28. MiMac Thatcher

    Flicker (View Comment):

    MiMac (View Comment):
    ineffective by physics

    Okay. Substitute ‘physical reality’.

    MiMac (View Comment):
    Virtually every expert in the field supports the use of masks-

    That’s funny, I would have said that more than half the experts in the field are not working in government policy making, and the vast majority of them either do not endorse masks.

    When hospitals are paid to boost CoV numbers, then we get higher CoV numbers. When CoV takes precedence over any other cause of death in the counting then we get more CoV deaths.
    or equivocate on the utility of masks. When we get former and now inactive cases listed as active cases, then we get more cases. It’s all so sloppy that it can’t be simple error upon error.

    I’m trusting myself, and my own experience, and the simple fact that most, or a great percentage of air breathed in or out goes around the mask, not through it, as evidenced by the fact that everyone’s glasses get fogged — this shows that the air is to an observable extent bypassing any filtration.

    My biases include if a person or group proves he’s misstating the facts, and has reason to deliberately misstate the facts, and admits to misstating the facts, and breaks laws (or at least disobeys orders) that were written to remove danger, and if the ‘science’ keeps changing from week to week — then my bias is to disbelieve them.

    1)Any proof of your assertion hospitals are paid to boost COVID numbers? Most COViD patients are Medicare and I can assure you that treating such patients is a money losing proposition. I find it incredible that so many claim knowledge of Medicare reimbursement policies when few have such knowledge – believe me I have to explain it all the time to my younger colleagues and hospital staff members.

    2) do you have the names of any of these experts claiming masks do not work & citations backing it up? And I don’t mean a retired neurosurgeon who now works in nutrition, or 2 “Doc in a Box” owners from the valley in CA- b/c they aren’t experts. Nor retracted commentary from the NEJM, nor physicists who can’t be bothered to read the articles they cite and cite incorrectly. I bring these up b/c those are the type of “experts” quoted by mask opponents. The best I have seen are people citing out of date articles by infectious disease MDs who, in fact, currently back the use of masks after further data was obtained. The data for masks isn’t great- but it is there and we have little else to use- and it is difficult and, at times, unethical to get great data.

    • #28
    • July 9, 2020, at 6:13 PM PDT
    • 2 likes
    • This comment has been edited.
  29. Flicker Coolidge

    MiMac (View Comment):
    I can assure you that treating such patients is a money losing proposition

    All the more reason to game the system. And incidentally, when governments fund something the demand to get the funding goes up too.

    MiMac (View Comment):
    do you have the names of any of these experts claiming masks do not work & citations backing it up?

    The government’s experts have already been proven to be liars, and specifically about masks as well. Why should I believe them now?

    Who you gonna believe?

    • #29
    • July 9, 2020, at 6:39 PM PDT
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  30. Hammer, The Member

    Limestone Cowboy (View Comment):

    Hammer, The (View Comment):

    Limestone Cowboy (View Comment):

    DonG (skeptic) (View Comment):

    And now we will all get a demonstration as to which schools are controlled by Leftists.

    Or controlled by school district lawyers..

    In fairness to some of those lawyers… I work at a law firm that represents school districts. The lawyer generally says that it is up to the school to make decisions. He only gets involved when they ask for his advice on specific issues. Our current problem is a result of state control, and that comes from the executive branch in most states.

    I’m not a lawyer and I certainly didn’t intend to denigrate lawyers. But if I understand their role correctly, the client school asks for advice on how to mitigate financial liability, say, on playground equipment. The lawyers will know and advise that the surest way to eliminate that risk is to eliminate playground equipment. Which is both absolutely true and absolutely stupid at the same time, since encouraging kids to blow off steam during recess undoubtedly improves the teaching environment. But the lawyer is consulted over risk mitigation and not on effective teaching environments.

    At my daughter’s elementary school, they did just that, on advice from legal counsel and eliminated playground swings after a boy I knew, doing what boys seem wired to do, got a serious injury whilst showing off on the swings.

    In the case of the Wuhan virus I’m sure that many schools are very much afraid of the legal liability arising from school reopening and lawyers will point out that the surest way to eliminate that liability is not to reopen. If they do reopen in the fall, and if any number of students (or teachers) are exposed to the virus (and they will be!) , just wait for the cable TV ads.

    If you or your child were exposed to WuFlu due to your school recklessly reopening despite the known risk, you may be entitled to substantial compensation. Contact the attorneys at Barakuda and Sharx at 1-800-GET-CASH now!”

    A school district’s lawyers might well advise the district of such risks and the way to avoid them.

    Fair enough. And I don’t even really mean to defend lawyers as much as observe that the school boards and bureaucrats seem very eager to impose these ridiculous rules.

    • #30
    • July 9, 2020, at 10:13 PM PDT
    • 1 like
    • This comment has been edited.