Trump’s Peace Plan

 

For the first time, an actual proposed map has been published by a player in the Israeli-Arab negotiations. It is truly fair to both sides. And it includes this wonderful gem:

“People of every faith should be permitted to pray on the Temple Mount/Haram al-Sharif, in a manner that is fully respectful to their religion, taking into account the times of each religion’s prayers and holidays, as well as other religious factors.”

This punchline is why the Palestinians would never accept this deal. Jews are currently not allowed to pray on the Temple Mount.

It is a very solid proposal. Israel could add a “stick,” if not accepted, Israel will annex the West Bank. The Palestinians would still reject it. And so Israel should annex anyway and be done with it.

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  1. Manny Member
    Manny
    @Manny

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):
    I wouldn’t side with the Christians just because they’re Christian. Right is right.

    And wrong is wrong. Right?

    Ok. 

    • #121
  2. Caryn Thatcher
    Caryn
    @Caryn

    Manny (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):
    I wouldn’t side with the Christians just because they’re Christian. Right is right.

    And wrong is wrong. Right?

    Ok.

    Manny, to Zafar the equation is always Israel=wrong, regardless of the question. 

    If you’re interested in learning more about Israel, particularly about Jewish-Christian relations, write to me privately and I’ll answer your questions with well sourced documentation and, for the questions I can’t answer, I’d be happy to point you to others who can also help.  There are a few historical links in my comment #54 that provide some background. You’ve liked and commented on my other lengthy comment, #78.  Lots of good links there, too, if you didn’t get to all of them.

    • #122
  3. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Caryn (View Comment):
    Manny, to Zafar the equation is always Israel=wrong, regardless of the question.

    Not so Caryn.  When Israel is right (eg gay rights, women’s rights, universal health care, universal education) it’s definitely right.

    Edit: but when it’s wrong then it’s wrong.

    The view from Jerusalem’s Latin Patriarchate.

    • #123
  4. Caryn Thatcher
    Caryn
    @Caryn

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Caryn (View Comment):
    Manny, to Zafar the equation is always Israel=wrong, regardless of the question.

    Not so Caryn. When Israel is right (eg gay rights, women’s rights, universal health care, universal education) it’s definitely right.

    Edit: but when it’s wrong then it’s wrong.

    The view from Jerusalem’s Latin Patriarchate.

    That view is the peace of dead Jews.  You do not discuss this issue in good faith; that is why I avoid engaging with you.

    • #124
  5. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Caryn (View Comment):
    That view is the peace of dead Jews. You do not discuss this issue in good faith; that is why I avoid engaging with you.

    Caryn, we don’t agree with each other’s assumptions but that doesn’t make either of us malign or dishonest.  I agree with this, I think it’s a good idea:

    For those with eyes to see and ears to hear, the Catholic Church in the Holy Land is calling for one, secular, democratic state that encompasses both Israel and Palestine.

    You think it means dead Jews.  I think it doesn’t – if I thought it did I wouldn’t agree with it.  In fact I think that the lack of this is what keeps Jews and Arabs over there at greater risk.

    Thats where we are. It’s possible for people to actually disagree with you without being dishonest or acting in bad faith.

    • #125
  6. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Caryn (View Comment):
    That view is the peace of dead Jews. You do not discuss this issue in good faith; that is why I avoid engaging with you.

    Caryn, we don’t agree with each other’s assumptions but that doesn’t make either of us malign or dishonest. I agree with this, I think it’s a good idea:

    For those with eyes to see and ears to hear, the Catholic Church in the Holy Land is calling for one, secular, democratic state that encompasses both Israel and Palestine.

    You think it means dead Jews. I think it doesn’t – if I thought it did I wouldn’t agree with it. In fact I think that the lack of this is what keeps Jews and Arabs over there at greater risk.

    Thats where we are. It’s possible for people to actually disagree with you without being dishonest or acting in bad faith.

    I believe you believe what you say, Zafar. But, you don’t seem to believe or acknowledge that Jews need and have legitimate claims to their own state as protection against murderous, hostile Arab Muslims surrounding and among them. As if incorporating “Palestinians” into the Jewish state and giving them full rights, including the right to “democratically” vote in their own leaders (e.g., Abbas, Arafat, and whoever the current terrorist leadership is in Gaza) will finally mean peaceful coexistence and not extermination of Jews. This is utopian, wishful thinking. 

    • #126
  7. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):
    I believe you believe what you say, Zafar. But, you don’t seem to believe or acknowledge that Jews need and have legitimate claims to their own state

    Taking the land other people are living on to make a State and also violating those people’s legitimate rights to respect for their private property and civic and political rights where they are is a recipe for conflict.

    Has it not proved to be so everywhere it’s happened?

    as protection against murderous, hostile Arab Muslims surrounding and among them.

    Again with the ignored Palestinian Christians.

    What is this about?  Is it conscious or deliberate?

    Instead of rehashing the Palestinian-Israeli conflict it would actually be really interesting if you focused on this Palestinian Christian invisibility instead.  

    • #127
  8. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):
    I believe you believe what you say, Zafar. But, you don’t seem to believe or acknowledge that Jews need and have legitimate claims to their own state

    Taking the land other people are living on to make a State and also violating those people’s legitimate rights to respect for their private property and civic and political rights where they are is a recipe for conflict.

    Has it not proved to be so everywhere it’s happened?

    as protection against murderous, hostile Arab Muslims surrounding and among them.

    Again with the ignored Palestinian Christians.

    What is this about? Is it conscious or deliberate?

    Instead of rehashing the Palestinian-Israeli conflict it would actually be really interesting if you focused on this Palestinian Christian invisibility instead.

    Mole versus malignancy. 

    • #128
  9. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):
    Mole versus malignancy.

    Is that really how you see these human beings?  I’m surprised. 

    • #129
  10. Caryn Thatcher
    Caryn
    @Caryn

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):
    I believe you believe what you say, Zafar. But, you don’t seem to believe or acknowledge that Jews need and have legitimate claims to their own state

    Taking the land other people are living on to make a State and also violating those people’s legitimate rights to respect for their private property and civic and political rights where they are is a recipe for conflict.

    This is where you show bad faith.  You need to stop with the Arab propaganda and read some history.  When Jews started moving in, the total population was under 500,000–Jews, Muslims, and Christians.  Many, if not most, of the Arabs were tenant farmers.  The Jews purchased the land from the legitimate owners–absentee landlords living throughout the Ottoman Empire and elsewhere.  When the land became more fertile, through the modern farming techniques brought by the Zionists and just damned hard work, Arab workers moved in to take advantage of the better living conditions and to learn and apply the modern techniques to the land they worked.  For the most part, Arabs and Jews lived side by side.  When the Ottoman Empire fell and the Allies divided the spoils, the Arab representatives at the San Remo Conference were fine with the tiny Jewish state alongside their 22.  Not to mention, the Jewish state became tinier still with the creation of TransJordan.

    Things got ugly in the early and later 1920s with the Hebron massacre and then the Mufti’s alliance with Hitler in the 1930s and through the war.  They chose the wrong side again.  And lost.

    At what point will you stop justifying terrorism committed by displaced tenants–not landowners–and antisemites?  If you rent an apartment and the building owner sells it and the new owner tells you your lease will not be renewed, that’s a bummer.  If you wear your old apartment key around your neck and complain that you’ve had your home “stolen” and try to kill the rightful renters and owners, you will quite reasonably be considered a criminal.  And a loon.  

     

    • #130
  11. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):
    Mole versus malignancy.

    Is that really how you see these human beings? I’m surprised.

    Not the people. The problems they represent. And, frankly, I’m tired of the discussion and feel it’s going nowhere so I’m down to quips. 

    • #131
  12. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):
    Mole versus malignancy.

    Is that really how you see these human beings? I’m surprised.

    Not the people. The problems they represent.

    Still a problematic way to see people.

     

    • #132
  13. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):
    Mole versus malignancy.

    Is that really how you see these human beings? I’m surprised.

    Not the people. The problems they represent.

    Still a problematic way to see people.

    Zafar, will you ever admit there’s a homicidal problem in Islam? That the ideology is especially problematic when it mixes with western ideals of human dignity and ordered liberty? I’m not talking about people. I take individuals as they come. I’m talking about ideas. And some ideas are malignant.

    A zero sum worldview is malignant. It sets people against each other and promotes envy and/or entitlement. It is anti-creation. The victim mentality excuses any (murderous) behavior, apparently. “Palestinians” who will never be satisfied until they have their chunk of Israel are doomed to misery. I think the best thing Arab Muslims in the region could do for themselves is to stop seeing themselves as victims and get on with creating a better life for themselves and their families — elsewhere. #MoveOn.

    • #133
  14. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Caryn (View Comment):

    The Jews purchased the land from the legitimate owners–absentee landlords living throughout the Ottoman Empire and elsewhere.

    From the same source, this is landownership in the Mandate in 1944 by religion/ethnicity of the owners or linked organisations:

     

    Six percent (6%) of the land between the River and the Sea was owned by individual Jewish people or by institutions like the JNF.

    This was bought from the owners (as you say absentee), but it was also mostly not very populated due to poor soil/marshland, and it didn’t really result in displacement.

    The 1948 refugees came from the other 94% (less Gaza and the West Bank).

    (The 6% level of Jewish land ownership in the Mandate was also why allocating 56% of the total land area to Israel [6% to 56% because??] was seen to be so unjust and was not accepted by the Arabs.)

    When the Ottoman Empire fell and the Allies divided the spoils, the Arab representatives at the San Remo Conference were fine with the tiny Jewish state alongside their 22. 

    There were no Arab representatives at the San Remo Conference:

    Conference of San Remo, (April 19–26, 1920), international meeting convened at San Remo, on the Italian Riviera, to decide the future of the former territories of the Ottoman Turkish Empire, one of the defeated Central Powers in World War I; it was attended by the prime ministers of Great Britain, France, and Italy, and representatives of Japan, Greece, and Belgium.

    As your link says Faisal did attend the Paris Peace Conference, as a guest of the British, and he obligingly said yes to everything in hopes that the Europeans would make him the King of something – which first the French and then the British very sportingly did.  But he was elected by nobody, and he represented nobody and nothing but his own personal ambition. imho.

    • #134
  15. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):
    will you ever admit there’s a homicidal problem in Islam?

    Why are you trying to change the subject?

    I know you are very comfortable expressing opinions about Islam. What you don’t seem at all comfortable doing is actually listening to what your fellow Christians who are also Palestinian have to say for themselves about what happened to them during the Nakba, the Naksa, as refugees and under occupation – and how they feel about it. 

    What makes you so uncomfortable that you seem actually unable to acknowledge their existence and voices for more than a few moments before ignoring these again?

    • #135
  16. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):
    will you ever admit there’s a homicidal problem in Islam?

    Why are you trying to change the subject?

    I know you are very comfortable expressing opinions about Islam. What you don’t seem at all comfortable doing is actually listening to what your fellow Christians who are also Palestinian have to say for themselves about what happened to them during the Nakba, the Naksa, as refugees and under occupation – and how they feel about it.

    What makes you so uncomfortable that you seem actually unable to acknowledge their existence and voices for more than a few moments before ignoring these again?

    What do you want me say? What is your aim? There are Christians unhappy with Israel’s victory in its war of independence? Okay. So???

    Is it a ploy to garner sympathy for Muslims hostile to Israel because I’m supposed to have some loyalty to Christians hostile to Israel? Is my sympathy a solution? What do you propose? And why are you avoiding my questions about the inherent murderous inclinations promoted by Islamism? 

    • #136
  17. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    And, to be clear, I do have sympathy for (innocent) Christians and Muslims living under hardship. I have much less sympathy for the idea that the only way for them to receive justice is for Jews to lose (zero sum). I believe it is false compassion to deny people their own moral agency in difficult circumstances. Like I tell my kids, fix what you can, graciously accept what you can’t and move on. Don’t be a victim.

    • #137
  18. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    What do you want me say? What is your aim? There are Christians unhappy with Israel’s victory in its war of independence? Okay. So???

    I’d like you to realise that Palestinians as a group [Muslim and Christian] suffered [largely in the same way] from what happened in 1948, and that they have a range of responses to this – which are not determined by their religious label.

    I’d really like Christians in the West to stop silencing Palestinian Christians by presenting their own views on Israel as universal Christian ones while ignoring actual Palestinian Christian views.

    You don’t have to agree with them, but don’t pretend they don’t exist, or that they don’t have their own experiences and opinions.

    Is it a ploy to garner sympathy for Muslims hostile to Israel because I’m supposed to have some loyalty to Christians hostile to Israel? Is my sympathy a solution? What do you propose?

    To start with: recognise that it is essentially a conflict between Palestinians and Israelis over land.

    Falsely dressing it up as a religious conflict does not serve peace, it serves war.

    Religious ideologies are used to justify many conflicts, including this one, but I can’t think of any long lasting conflicts which are just about ideology and not really driven by more mundane things (like control of land).

    And why are you avoiding my questions about the inherent murderous inclinations promoted by Islamism?

    I didn’t want to acquiesce to you changing the subject and not answering my question.

    But now that you have been courteous enough to address what I asked you in our conversation.

    Zafar, will you ever admit there’s a homicidal problem in Islam?

    Sure.

    But: there are too many peaceful Muslims today, and too many instances of any religion being used to justify evil or wrong doing, to call it definitive or unique.

    And, to be clear, I do have sympathy for (innocent) Christians and Muslims living under hardship. I have much less sympathy for the idea that the only way for them to receive justice is for Jews to lose (zero sum).

    I agree with you.

    I believe it is false compassion to deny people their own moral agency in difficult circumstances.

    Absolutely – it’s the bigotry of lower expectations.

    Hence holding Jewish migrants from Europe responsible for the Nakba despite the Holocaust.

    Principles need to be consistent.

    Like I tell my kids, fix what you can, graciously accept what you can’t and move on. Don’t be a victim.

    What do you tell them about victimising other people?

    Or if they’ve victimised other people?

    I actually agree with what you say, as far as it goes, but it’s incomplete because: for every victimised person or group there’s a person or group that victimises.

    Failing to address that reduces your point’s moral weight when you are talking about other people and not yourself.

    jmnsho.

    • #138
  19. Manny Member
    Manny
    @Manny

    Zafar (View Comment):
    You don’t have to agree with them, but don’t pretend they don’t exist, or that they don’t have their own experiences and opinions.

    Zafar, Palestinian Christians make up less than 3% of the population in Israel and Palestinian territories.  It’s pretty easy to overlook them.  I never see them in the news.  

    My one personal experience with them comes every year one Sunday during Lent.  A particular representative comes by one Sunday and in the church basement lays out beautiful religious crafts and articles made from olive wood for sale.  I try to buy something every year.  Actually I found a website with their crafts.  

    Yes I have compassion for the innocent people of all three religions.  And frankly a two state solution is a reasonable plan to move on from past hatreds.  If only they would all take it.

    • #139
  20. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Manny (View Comment):
    Zafar, Palestinian Christians make up less than 3% of the population in Israel and Palestinian territories. It’s pretty easy to overlook them. I never see them in the news.

    Which Palestinians do you see in the news?

    • #140
  21. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    And furthermore:

    https://www.crisismagazine.com/2020/with-burning-concern

    Christians living under Israeli rule aren’t the greatest concern for our brother Christians. Sorry, they’re just not. It’s Christians living under Muslim persecution who are sorely neglected in the news and of which we are largely ignorant. I pray daily for the four seminarians captured by Islamists in Africa and for all those (Christian and non-Christian) living under tyranny and persecution. Even the Muslim Uighurs of China. Pick your battles.  

    • #141
  22. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Reasonable call Western Chauvinist, if also edging into whatabouttery.

    Though in addition to prayers perhaps next time don’t support regime change wars which were/are responsible for empowering Islamists?  Saddam didn’t persecute Iraqi Christians, and Assad doesn’t persecute Syrian Christians. 

    Just a thought.  

    • #142
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