Trump’s Peace Plan

 

For the first time, an actual proposed map has been published by a player in the Israeli-Arab negotiations. It is truly fair to both sides. And it includes this wonderful gem:

“People of every faith should be permitted to pray on the Temple Mount/Haram al-Sharif, in a manner that is fully respectful to their religion, taking into account the times of each religion’s prayers and holidays, as well as other religious factors.”

This punchline is why the Palestinians would never accept this deal. Jews are currently not allowed to pray on the Temple Mount.

It is a very solid proposal. Israel could add a “stick,” if not accepted, Israel will annex the West Bank. The Palestinians would still reject it. And so Israel should annex anyway and be done with it.

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  1. Arahant Member
    Arahant
    @Arahant

    iWe (View Comment):
    Actually, this is STILL what the Palestinians say they want to do to the Jews.

    True, but now the names have changed. It’s a long history.

    • #31
  2. Kay of MT Inactive
    Kay of MT
    @KayofMT

    My idea is very simple, drive every single muslim in Israel across the Jordan river into the area that was allotted to them in the 1940’s. Then build a wall to keep them out of Israel. Tear down all mosque in Israel, and rebuild our temple on Temple Mount. The muslims have done nothing positive in my lifetime, just kill as many Jews as possible. It isn’t going to change, doesn’t matter what plan is proposed.

    • #32
  3. Stad Coolidge
    Stad
    @Stad

    Valiuth (View Comment):
    But if they don’t make them citizens then what? You keep them arround as a second class population?

    Ship ’em out.

    • #33
  4. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    Stad (View Comment):

    Valiuth (View Comment):
    But if they don’t make them citizens then what? You keep them arround as a second class population?

    Ship ’em out.

    Maybe the Germans will take them.

    • #34
  5. Stad Coolidge
    Stad
    @Stad

    Manny (View Comment):
    Looks like a good deal for Israel. I can’t imagine the Palestinians going for it.

    The Palestintians will never go for any deal that allows Israel to exist.  Their hatred of Jews rivals that of Der Furher himself.  I’m willing to bet Mein Kampf is required reading in their schools . . .

    • #35
  6. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    Stad (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):
    Looks like a good deal for Israel. I can’t imagine the Palestinians going for it.

    The Palestintians will never go for any deal that allows Israel to exist. Their hatred of Jews rivals that of Der Furher himself. I’m willing to bet Mein Kampf is required reading in their schools . . .

    Which is why the “two-state solution” has never really been a solution at all.

    • #36
  7. Hartmann von Aue Member
    Hartmann von Aue
    @HartmannvonAue

    iWe (View Comment):

    Arahant (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):
    Can they push them out to the sea as someone above suggested? I don’t think so.

    There is history behind that suggestion, which is probably at least semi-facetious in the current context. That was what the Arabs intended to do to the Palestinians (Jews). Of course, that was back when “Palestinian” meant a Jew living in British Mandate Palestine and the people we now call “Palestinians” were called Arabs.

    Actually, this is STILL what the Palestinians say they want to do to the Jews.

    And MEMRI has hours and hours of recordings of them saying so. 

    • #37
  8. Stad Coolidge
    Stad
    @Stad

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Stad (View Comment):

    Valiuth (View Comment):
    But if they don’t make them citizens then what? You keep them arround as a second class population?

    Ship ’em out.

    Maybe the Germans will take them.

    Their own Arab cousins won’t take them, which tells me they want Israel gone too.

    • #38
  9. Hartmann von Aue Member
    Hartmann von Aue
    @HartmannvonAue

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Stad (View Comment):

    Valiuth (View Comment):
    But if they don’t make them citizens then what? You keep them arround as a second class population?

    Ship ’em out.

    Maybe the Germans will take them.

    Lieber nicht, danke!

    • #39
  10. Hartmann von Aue Member
    Hartmann von Aue
    @HartmannvonAue

    Stad (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):
    Looks like a good deal for Israel. I can’t imagine the Palestinians going for it.

    The Palestintians will never go for any deal that allows Israel to exist. Their hatred of Jews rivals that of Der Furher himself. I’m willing to bet Mein Kampf is required reading in their schools . . .

    When that noxious tome was translated into Arabic, they turned it into a best-seller for the first time since the Third Reich. If it is not required reading, it must be a matter of their preference. 

    • #40
  11. Hartmann von Aue Member
    Hartmann von Aue
    @HartmannvonAue

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Stad (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):
    Looks like a good deal for Israel. I can’t imagine the Palestinians going for it.

    The Palestintians will never go for any deal that allows Israel to exist. Their hatred of Jews rivals that of Der Furher himself. I’m willing to bet Mein Kampf is required reading in their schools . . .

    Which is why the “two-state solution” has never really been a solution at all.

    Indeed. They have their state. It is called “Jordan”. 

    • #41
  12. Arahant Member
    Arahant
    @Arahant

    Stad (View Comment):
    Their own Arab cousins won’t take them, which tells me they want Israel gone too.

    That was how they have been used, but Israel is gaining allies in the region, and the Arabs of Palestine are losing them.

    • #42
  13. Hartmann von Aue Member
    Hartmann von Aue
    @HartmannvonAue

    Arahant (View Comment):

    Stad (View Comment):
    Their own Arab cousins won’t take them, which tells me they want Israel gone too.

    That was how they have been used, but Israel is gaining allies in the region, and the Arabs of Palestine are losing them.

    There are now reports that Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and the UAE are officially supporting Trump’s peace plan. 

    • #43
  14. Arahant Member
    Arahant
    @Arahant

    Hartmann von Aue (View Comment):
    There are now reports that Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and the UAE are officially supporting Trump’s peace plan. 

    Sounds like a, “We’re tired of you. Sit down and shut up,” moment. Either that, or they have all decided they have more important fish to fry (Iran).

    • #44
  15. Manny Member
    Manny
    @Manny

    iWe (View Comment):

    Arahant (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):
    Can they push them out to the sea as someone above suggested? I don’t think so.

    There is history behind that suggestion, which is probably at least semi-facetious in the current context. That was what the Arabs intended to do to the Palestinians (Jews). Of course, that was back when “Palestinian” meant a Jew living in British Mandate Palestine and the people we now call “Palestinians” were called Arabs.

    Actually, this is STILL what the Palestinians say they want to do to the Jews.

    That may be expressive talk but I doubt anyone is going to push anyone out into the sea.

    • #45
  16. lowtech redneck Coolidge
    lowtech redneck
    @lowtech redneck

    Manny (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Looks like a good deal for Israel. I can’t imagine the Palestinians going for it. I’d be shocked if it happened. But let’s hope.

    I dunno, I look at the map linked by ctlaw and I think, “the whole thing is Israel. It’s way too generous to people who want to destroy Israel and exterminate Jews.” But, that’s the beautiful sleight of hand in the offer. The Palestinians will never accept it no matter how generous a “coexistence” plan is, which makes the “get out” alternative all the more reasonable.

    I don’t know what Israel’s options are with the Palestinians. Can they push them out to the sea as someone above suggested? I don’t think so. I don’t think it’s in Israel’s interest to integrate the Palestinians into their society. It would be a huge voting block. A two state solution is the best option for both as far as i can see. It’s a question of what the terms of that two state solution are.

    I agree, and both sides are too far apart for any final-status deal for the foreseeable future.

    I highly doubt this was ever expected to be accepted by the Palestinians (they had already rejected far more favorable offers); its more along the lines of signaling what kind of unilateral actions Israel could take that the Trump administration would support (which isn’t going to include ethnically cleansing 3 million Palestinians, about 40-45% of which are children).  It basically amounts to most of what the two largest Israeli political blocs already wanted (Likud and Blue and White) while putting Yamina as well as the Israeli Left (not to mention the Palestinians) on the defensive.  The ‘stick’ would simply be doing much of this unilaterally, without the inducements that would alleviate the bitter pills that Palestinians would have to swallow.  

    I have no idea if this amounts to one side wisely capitalizing on unusually favorable international and political circumstances, or if its a bridge too far that will ultimately destroy a surprisingly strong anti-Iranian alliance between Israel and most middle East regimes, as well as successful ‘stealth’ efforts by Israel that advanced desired ‘facts on the ground’ without official state actions to that affect.

    • #46
  17. Stad Coolidge
    Stad
    @Stad

    Hartmann von Aue (View Comment):

    Arahant (View Comment):

    Stad (View Comment):
    Their own Arab cousins won’t take them, which tells me they want Israel gone too.

    That was how they have been used, but Israel is gaining allies in the region, and the Arabs of Palestine are losing them.

    There are now reports that Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and the UAE are officially supporting Trump’s peace plan.

    That’s good to hear.

    • #47
  18. lowtech redneck Coolidge
    lowtech redneck
    @lowtech redneck

    Hartmann von Aue (View Comment):

    Arahant (View Comment):

    Stad (View Comment):
    Their own Arab cousins won’t take them, which tells me they want Israel gone too.

    That was how they have been used, but Israel is gaining allies in the region, and the Arabs of Palestine are losing them.

    There are now reports that Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and the UAE are officially supporting Trump’s peace plan.

    If true, that’s huuuuge.  I expected a careful lack of either endorsement or non-endorsement.

    • #48
  19. Arahant Member
    Arahant
    @Arahant

    Manny (View Comment):
    That may be expressive talk but I doubt anyone is going to push anyone out into the sea.

    On the one side (Israel), I don’t think anyone even talks that way. On the other side (Arabs), they elect terrorist organizations to represent them and run things. In the former case, they have the power to do so, but no will. In the latter, they have the will, but not the power.

    • #49
  20. lowtech redneck Coolidge
    lowtech redneck
    @lowtech redneck

    Manny (View Comment):

    iWe (View Comment):

    Arahant (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):
    Can they push them out to the sea as someone above suggested? I don’t think so.

    There is history behind that suggestion, which is probably at least semi-facetious in the current context. That was what the Arabs intended to do to the Palestinians (Jews). Of course, that was back when “Palestinian” meant a Jew living in British Mandate Palestine and the people we now call “Palestinians” were called Arabs.

    Actually, this is STILL what the Palestinians say they want to do to the Jews.

    That may be expressive talk but I doubt anyone is going to push anyone out into the sea.

    Yes, but I do think its something that should be discouraged even as an expression of frustration and disgust.  There are inevitably some people who will take it seriously (a characteristic far more prevalent on the Palestinian side right now, but that’s subject to change).

    Not to get all ‘David French’ or anything, but I think that’s an important point for everyone to keep in mind.  Don’t worry, I’ll take the soapbox with me now that I’ve said my piece.

    • #50
  21. Eugene Kriegsmann Member
    Eugene Kriegsmann
    @EugeneKriegsmann

    Daniel Pipes just released his own take on the Trump plan. I completely agree with his statements which essentially boil down to the need for the Palestinians to accept Israel’s existence completely, none of their usual nonsense. The problem I see from my own study is that to Palestinians, all of Israel is on land which they see as Dar al Islam. Their belief that once they have occupied an area it is forever theirs. This is a major concern when they talk about building a mosque near Ground Zero in New York City. Many Muslims still believe that they own a good deal of what is now Spain despite being exiled from it in the 15th Century. Bernard Lewis was very clear in his description of this belief. When you ignore it, you are living in a pipe dream. Until and unless Donald Trump understands this concept, he is going down that same lonesome, pointless road that just about every American president has gone in the last 50 years.

    • #51
  22. Miffed White Male Member
    Miffed White Male
    @MiffedWhiteMale

    Eugene Kriegsmann (View Comment):

    Daniel Pipes just released his own take on the Trump plan. I completely agree with his statements which essentially boil down to the need for the Palestinians to accept Israel’s existence completely, none of their usual nonsense. The problem I see from my own study is that to Palestinians, all of Israel is on land which they see as Dar al Islam. Their belief that once they have occupied an area it is forever theirs. This is a major concern when they talk about building a mosque near Ground Zero in New York City. Many Muslims still believe that they own a good deal of what is now Spain despite being exiled from it in the 15th Century. Bernard Lewis was very clear in his description of this belief. When you ignore it, you are living in a pipe dream. Until and unless Donald Trump understands this concept, he is going down that same lonesome, pointless road that just about every American president has gone in the last 50 years.

    That’s why I say “screw ’em” and expel the Palestinians to Jordan.

    • #52
  23. Phil Turmel Coolidge
    Phil Turmel
    @PhilTurmel

    I’m happy to see Jewish settlements in the West Bank grow and grow.

    • #53
  24. Caryn Thatcher
    Caryn
    @Caryn

    Eugene Kriegsmann (View Comment):

    Daniel Pipes just released his own take on the Trump plan. I completely agree with his statements which essentially boil down to the need for the Palestinians to accept Israel’s existence completely, none of their usual nonsense. The problem I see from my own study is that to Palestinians, all of Israel is on land which they see as Dar al Islam. Their belief that once they have occupied an area it is forever theirs. This is a major concern when they talk about building a mosque near Ground Zero in New York City. Many Muslims still believe that they own a good deal of what is now Spain despite being exiled from it in the 15th Century. Bernard Lewis was very clear in his description of this belief. When you ignore it, you are living in a pipe dream. Until and unless Donald Trump understands this concept, he is going down that same lonesome, pointless road that just about every American president has gone in the last 50 years.

    Yes!  This.  Here’s that Pipes article.  The worst thing about the plan is that it puts Israel, by accepting it, in the position of giving credibility to the idea that they’re “occupying Palestinian land.”  Each of those three words is a lie. 

    The last reasonable two state plan was San Remo, which, as far as I understand it, still has the power of law.  I’m not sure why it isn’t invoked more often.  Here’s some more background on it.  The linked sites are pro-Israel, but are well documented with links and references for anyone to check if they’re not comfortable with such a source.

    • #54
  25. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Manny (View Comment):
    Looks like a good deal for Israel. I can’t imagine the Palestinians going for it.

    There you have it in a nutshell.

    Primary audience domestic?

    • #55
  26. Manny Member
    Manny
    @Manny

    lowtech redneck (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    iWe (View Comment):

    Arahant (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):
    Can they push them out to the sea as someone above suggested? I don’t think so.

    There is history behind that suggestion, which is probably at least semi-facetious in the current context. That was what the Arabs intended to do to the Palestinians (Jews). Of course, that was back when “Palestinian” meant a Jew living in British Mandate Palestine and the people we now call “Palestinians” were called Arabs.

    Actually, this is STILL what the Palestinians say they want to do to the Jews.

    That may be expressive talk but I doubt anyone is going to push anyone out into the sea.

    Yes, but I do think its something that should be discouraged even as an expression of frustration and disgust. There are inevitably some people who will take it seriously (a characteristic far more prevalent on the Palestinian side right now, but that’s subject to change).

    Not to get all ‘David French’ or anything, but I think that’s an important point for everyone to keep in mind. Don’t worry, I’ll take the soapbox with me now that I’ve said my piece.

    I agree.  I sometimes talk that way on certain issues, but other than bonding with like minded people, it really is not constructive.  

    • #56
  27. Manny Member
    Manny
    @Manny

    Eugene Kriegsmann (View Comment):

    Daniel Pipes just released his own take on the Trump plan. I completely agree with his statements which essentially boil down to the need for the Palestinians to accept Israel’s existence completely, none of their usual nonsense. The problem I see from my own study is that to Palestinians, all of Israel is on land which they see as Dar al Islam. Their belief that once they have occupied an area it is forever theirs. This is a major concern when they talk about building a mosque near Ground Zero in New York City. Many Muslims still believe that they own a good deal of what is now Spain despite being exiled from it in the 15th Century. Bernard Lewis was very clear in his description of this belief. When you ignore it, you are living in a pipe dream. Until and unless Donald Trump understands this concept, he is going down that same lonesome, pointless road that just about every American president has gone in the last 50 years.

    Agree.  This is a bigger question about dealing with Muslims in general.  Numerous times I’ve highlighted problems with not just radical Islam, but with the very core of Islam itself.  It is the very opposite of the “religion of peace.”  It is inherently evil.  

    • #57
  28. Manny Member
    Manny
    @Manny

    Arahant (View Comment):

    iWe (View Comment):
    Actually, this is STILL what the Palestinians say they want to do to the Jews.

    True, but now the names have changed. It’s a long history.

    That’s true, but let’s face it.  The IQ of the Palestinians has not been very high.  They have been making wrong decision on top of wrong decision for what, sixty, seventy, eighty years?  Maybe longer.  If the Israelis feel they can continue to live this way, let the Palestinians continue to eat dirt for all I care.  I’m under the assumption that a two state solution is good for Israel.  I’m no expert, but it would seem to me that it is.  

    • #58
  29. Manny Member
    Manny
    @Manny

    Arahant (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):
    That may be expressive talk but I doubt anyone is going to push anyone out into the sea.

    On the one side (Israel), I don’t think anyone even talks that way. On the other side (Arabs), they elect terrorist organizations to represent them and run things. In the former case, they have the power to do so, but no will. In the latter, they have the will, but not the power.

    Agreed.  Don’t get me wrong, I don’t have an once of sympathy for the Palestinians.  If we had unlimited power, I would agree they should all be populated in Jordan where they belong.  But that’s just not going to happen.  

    • #59
  30. Manny Member
    Manny
    @Manny

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):
    Looks like a good deal for Israel. I can’t imagine the Palestinians going for it.

    There you have it in a nutshell.

    Primary audience domestic?

    I don’t know.  Perhaps I failed to say it looks like a good plan for the Palestinians as well.  The Palestinians will turn it down because it’s also a good plan for Israel.  To the Palestinians it doesn’t matter if it’s good for them.  All that matters is that it hurts Israel.  Like I said above, their collective IQ is not high.

    • #60
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