Why Jews Have Abandoned Judaism

 

Abandon is a pretty strong word; I could have worded my title differently, but I believe that most of modern Jewry have, for all intents and purposes, left the fold. Only a small number of Jews are observant Jews, and I am not one of them. I decided to explore this question, and hopefully clarify for myself not just what it means to be a Jew, but what it means for me to be Jew. As you look at the lives of Jews whom you know, you might want to explore some of these issues with them. I am including some of my personal experiences as a Jew, and I will leave you to determine the legitimacy of my claims.

First, I was raised in a nearly secular family. We rarely if ever discussed G-d. I don’t even know if my father believed in G-d. Although my mother occasionally mentioned G-d, her level of belief (if at all) was unclear. Both my parents were raised in broken homes, with some version of Judaism that might have included keeping kosher, but I honestly don’t know if they observed any of the holidays. I know that my father read Hebrew, but I just now realize that I don’t know if he was a bar mitzvah. And both my parents have died. When I asked my father why he grudgingly went to synagogue on the High Holidays, he said he didn’t need to go there to experience G-d. Whether he experienced G-d elsewhere I’ll never know.

But for some strange reason, my mother decided that she wanted us to have some kind of Jewish upbringing. So we went to Hebrew School three times a week after public school for a couple of years. My brother was a bar mitzvah, but when my parents asked if I was interested in being a bat mitzvah, I said no. Mainly, I didn’t see a good reason to do it. Besides, my folks had limited funds and I didn’t want them to have the expense.

Once I left home, my Jewish practice was mostly abandoned. I picked it up a bit when I was hired to teach an afternoon class at a local synagogue for kids around ten years old. The curriculum was up to me, and I don’t remember much about what I taught. But the principal of the school liked me and kept me on for my senior year of college. For some reason, I still felt emotionally connected to Judaism but didn’t practice anything. I was a Jew in name only; I wouldn’t call myself a secular Jew since I’d always believed in G-d.

So how would I describe my faith through the early part of my adult life? Weak, indifferent, even haphazard. Many of you know that I practiced Buddhism for 20 years, married a gentile, and found my way back to Judaism. Not much of a Jew.

I think I’m typical of modern Jews in many ways. I held on to my Jewish identity (which Buddhism was indifferent to) and made some periodic efforts at observance: a Passover seder here, a Chanukah celebration there. I even went to Israel for a year and fell in love with her. But not enough to change my ways.

The way I’m quite different from today’s Jews is my deep belief in G-d. I have also integrated some Jewish daily practices into my life, including a limited observance of the Sabbath; I study Torah with a study partner and have co-written a book on Judaism. And I was never attracted to Leftist ideology, which I think many Jews have used to replace their faith. They don’t realize in accepting Leftism, they are betraying many of their Jewish values. More on that later.

So why are so many Jews indifferent to Judaism and have abandoned their faith? Here are some explanations:

Many Jews never found a way to connect to Judaism in a deeply spiritual way. Those raised in some Orthodox families felt beleaguered by the 613 mitzvot ordered by a G-d they couldn’t relate to. Many were raised by parents who held disdain for Judaism, due to Marxist leanings or disillusionment with the Holocaust. Many were raised with no Jewish identification at all. Many gravitated to Buddhism, which provides community, and Zen, in particular, focuses on meditation and has no dogma. It was my meditation practice that ironically deepened my connection to G-d, but that isn’t the experience of many other Jews. And Buddhism doesn’t speak of G-d, so that fact freed them from having to deal with the “G-d question.”

Many people became disillusioned with Judaism after the Holocaust, and they passed on that anger and disappointment. People felt that G-d had made a covenant with the Jews to protect us, and many people and their children felt they had been abandoned. For myself, I don’t know the reasons that G-d didn’t step in, but men were the ones who created the Holocaust, through their free will. Still, those who survived had serious questions:

Was God dead? Was He just indifferent–or worse, a sadist? If He could not be counted on to live up to His reputation for mercy and intervene, what good was He? And if He did not intervene, by what reasoning did He merit our allegiance?

Judaism teaches that maintaining Jewish continuity will bring blessings to one’s descendants. But the descendants of identified Jews (anyone with one Jewish grandparent) were the ones who [cynics might argue] fell into Hitler’s trap, the observant along with the secular, the pious along with the apikores (apostate). For those left to sort out the implications of the devastation, nothing could possibly justify what was seen as God’s brutal and wholesale betrayal of the Jewish people.

Through the centuries, Jews were persecuted by the peoples with whom they lived. When Marxism offered an alternative utopian view in the 19th century, many Jews joined up. And especially when Marxism was lauded after World War II, the Jews were even more enamored. Many found their way to the Left as well, and for many years, much of Marxist belief is found in Leftist doctrine.

Many Jews who are on the Left must suffer cognitive dissonance. On the one hand, they hold on to their Jewish identification, and yet they want to be accepted as part of the Left and promote Leftists ideas. It will be interesting to see whether Jews begin to realize, like the German Jews, that they have never been fully accepted, demonstrated by the Left’s acceptance of anti-Semitism.

Judaism in its Orthodox form is demanding. We live in a time when we want life to be carefree and convenient. Many aspects of Judaism require a Jew to make the faith central to life. Many everyday actions call for blessings and acknowledgment. It is easiest for some to simply discredit this ancient and rich faith because it is not easy to develop a coherent practice.

Jews feel little if any responsibility for perpetuating Judaism. At one time, it didn’t occur to me that every Jew is called to help Judaism survive. So I married the man I fell in love with since he didn’t mind my following whatever practices I wished; he even participated at times. We were even married by a Reform rabbi, who said he wouldn’t marry us if my husband had a serious connection to another religion (which he did not). Nearly 45 years later, we are together, but Judaism struggles in our home.

There are many other reasons why Jews have abandoned Judaism, and many of them have abandoned it for the religion of the Left. But here’s the truth:

You can’t be a Jew and be on the political Left. Jews on the Left have betrayed Judaism in a number of ways. It calls on us to remember that each person is created in the image of G-d; it doesn’t leave out Conservatives. It requires Jews not to destroy the reputation of others; presidents and attorney generals are not free game. If we look at the values that the Jews on the Left espouse but ignore, they would not be able to justify their actions and behaviors in many situations. I reject that a good Jew, defined most broadly, can legitimately follow Leftism.

It simply can’t be done.

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  1. SkipSul Inactive
    SkipSul
    @skipsul

    Guruforhire (View Comment):
    I think Ayn Rand works are better read as criticism in the form of Candide, than as expressions of something else.

    I find her so terrible to read that I find her better left unread.

    • #61
  2. Stad Coolidge
    Stad
    @Stad

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Stad (View Comment):

    SkipSul (View Comment):
    Faith should be above politics, and I think it hurts Christianity when it becomes so intertwined with being a Republican, just as it hurts Judaism for it be intertwined with being a Democrat.

    I agree.

    How does faith do when it just becomes intertwined with not being a Democrat?

    Christianity works no matter what type of government you live under.  It works if there is slavery, it works if there is a collectivist form of rule (if the rulers allow it).  However, it can be widely open to interpretation, as we see politicians on both sides sometimes butcher the real meaning behind the words.

    The Bible was used to justify slavery and to eliminate heretics by horrific means.  Today, we have a much better idea of what Christianity can do:

    It can make us free slaves and eliminate the practice, even though the Bible applies if we have slaves.

    It can allow sinners to live without fear of terrible punishment, in the hope they recognize their sin and try to do something about it – if not, live and let live (thinking of all sorts here – gays, prostitution, adultery, etc.).

    The idea of loving one another, loving your neighbor, loving your enemy – is something worth striving for.  Where I think religious, Christian Democrats get it wrong is a belief of accepting sin as okay.  It’s okay for sinners to belong to a faith and to believe in Christ and attend church, but it’s not okay to deny the tenets of our faith, such as the definition of marriage and the acknowledgement of what God views as sin . . .

    • #62
  3. GFHandle Member
    GFHandle
    @GFHandle

    There’s been a shift from endogamy to exogamy. Many of my Jewish friends married non-Jews. I don’t know what is cause and what is effect, though. Still, widening the pool of eligible mates is a motivator. (I gave up cigarettes by constantly reminding myself of how many healthy women would never go near a smoker.)

     

    • #63
  4. Stina Inactive
    Stina
    @CM

    Stad (View Comment):
    It’s okay for sinners to belong to a faith and to believe in Christ and attend church, but it’s not okay to deny the tenets of our faith, such as the definition of marriage and the acknowledgement of what God views as sin . .

    There’s this great song popular right now with this line:

    It’s not one or the other; it’s hard truth AND ridiculous grace.

    You can’t experience grace and mercy unless you know you deserve punishment.

    You can’t experience saving unless there’s something you need saving from.

    My daughter hates the “scary” parts in movies… I tell her there is no victory with no struggle. You need both.

    • #64
  5. Peckish Cedar Inactive
    Peckish Cedar
    @PeckishCedar

    I pinged on the comment that Judaism is family.  A very specific family is central to the entire OT and Jesus of Nazareth was pointedly identified as a member of that family by both OT prophesy and NT genealogy There was an overall family fathered by Abraham and later populated by the 12 children of Jacob that was collectively called Israel.  After 722 BC the whole book (OT and NT) is mostly about one branch: the line of Jacob’s fourth son Judah. God made several covenants with his people and it is clear by my reading that God keeps all of his covenants, so those he made with Abraham and David will remain in force until they are fully fulfilled.  Perhaps there was never an OT holocaust to the degree of the one last century, but there were three that came close (Assyrian, Babylonian, and Roman) and at least one that was nearly avoided as described in Esther. From my reading, there is only one single person from a tribe other than Judah, Benjamin, and Levi identified in the Bible after 722 BC.  If the other 10 tribes were truly wiped out by the Assyrians, there truly was a significant holocaust. But I happen to believe Hosea tells exactly what happened and the same event is alluded to in the Parable of the Prodigal Son.  The older son (Judah) and the younger son (actually a grandson named Ephriam and also called Israel) are both the children of God, he loves them both, and wants them both in his house.  One stayed with the father while the other was cast into the nations (goyim) and lived among the Gentiles/Goy/Lo-Ammi/Not My People until he returned in repentance.  Hosea 8:9-10 tells us “Not My People” (sequeing directly to Israel) shall be as the sand of the sea that can’t be numbered, so where were/are they? Given 2,700 years for genes to spread around the world (the character Jezreel “to sow” is also significant here), I have a feeling all people potentially have an ancestor from either Judah or Ephriam/Israel, which makes us all descendants of Jacob and all family – literally.  Right now the number is about 7.7 billion. The world is an unloving place and sometimes family has the hardest time showing love.  Even so, Hosea tells us a day will come when the children of Judah and the children of Israel will be gathered back together, God will have Mercy on those who had No Mercy (Jews), will say to those who were Not My People (Ephraim) you are my people, and we will all return and seek the Lord.  I never could understand why a Christian should ever have a problem with a Jew.  I do understand why the worldly have a problem with both.  We are the Children of God, but we need to be so both in blood and spirit.  Peace be with you.                 

    • #65
  6. Skyler Coolidge
    Skyler
    @Skyler

    Why have Jews abandoned Judaism, and frankly religion in general?  Because in the aggregate, their average IQ is quite a bit higher than the rest of society.  :)

    • #66
  7. Peckish Cedar Inactive
    Peckish Cedar
    @PeckishCedar

    I once saw a ranking of IQ’s (to the hundredths place) of each religious preference.  I remember it had Atheists at the top (naturally), with Jews, Lutherans, just below, and Southern Baptists toward the bottom.  I’d be at the bottom obviously.  I never could find out how the statistician came up with his data.   

    Empirically, I haven’t observed any evidence to support the supposition that atheists are rational much less inherently intelligent.  Perhaps they’re just speaking over my head.  How can Forrest Gump understand Stephen Hawking, right? 

    Anyway, if you have an open mind and open heart, I challenge you to read and study the Bible (again?) and you might be surprised  to discover how smart the ancient Jews were (I’m mainly speaking of the authors – the audiences could be as dense as us).  Although we like to throw the word Progressive around these days, I see our intelligence and society (on the aggregate) as being regressive by comparison.  We’ll all find out how smart we are eventually.      

    • #67
  8. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    SkipSul (View Comment):
    There is a real risk that political party loyalty becomes an idol.

    SkipSul (View Comment):

    I think we are agreeing on the matter, but from different points of view.

    Maybe so. Party loyalty should definitely not be an idol. Nor should opposition to the other party.

    • #68
  9. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Shawn Buell (Majestyk) (View Comment):

    It’s tough to argue with some of these assertions because in the end religiosity is not a question of agreement over facts – indeed, no two religions even agree about a very large set of facts.

    It’s more of a question of whether or not you believe in transcendent things.

    Those also are questions of fact.

    • #69
  10. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Shawn Buell (Majestyk) (View Comment):

    SkipSul (View Comment):
    That’s rather an oversimplification. Many of the fundamental questions were asked, answered, and re-asked time and again over the millennia. Read through philosophical and religious history and you find, time and again, many people wresting with them.

    Baruch Spinoza did a fine job of that in the 17th Century – which earned him expulsion from Judaic society and the title of heretic even though he was Sephardic.

    Not necessarily.  A genius, yes.  But Spinoza abandoned all forms of Abrahamic orthodoxy for a philosophical pantheism; his account was logical enough, but started with a bad premise–a bizarre and unnecessary definition of substance.

    Those who did a fine job include Ambrose, Augustine, Boethius, Anselm, and Aquinas.  Probably Maimonides, but I ain’t studied him enough.  Perhaps also Al-Ghazali, but I ain’t studied him enough either.

    • #70
  11. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Peckish Cedar (View Comment):
    Even so, Hosea tells us a day will come when the children of Judah and the children of Israel will be gathered back together, God will have Mercy on those who had No Mercy (Jews), will say to those who were Not My People (Ephraim) you are my people, and we will all return and seek the Lord.

    Two magnificent blog posts on this stuff:

    https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/wholecounsel/2019/02/01/gods-people-israel/

    https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/wholecounsel/2019/02/03/renewed-israel/

    • #71
  12. Keith Rice Inactive
    Keith Rice
    @KeithRice

    Wow, so much to unpack here. I’m going to start with my own views and then address OP.

    Judaism is an ancient religion and inasmuch, as noted by others, has become somewhat irrelevant to modern issues. Being of secular mind I tend to think of Judaism as springing from the written word and yielding the Torah which seems to me the original guide for the creation of a nation (the Christian Bible is about the individual). The “God” as described by the Torah strikes me as the ephemeral manifestation of the reality of the power of Pharaoh. I also believe that Judaism is, in reality, a remnant of ancient Egypt tempered by prevailing local beliefs upon the establishment of its independence. The former is just conjecture though based on shreds of evidence, the latter seems well established.

    The elements of nation building include history, stories of the leaders, as well as rules for living and maintaining unity. As a spiritual document it’s sorely lacking other than from the investment of Divine Inspiration (the school of the Ba’al Shem Tov introduced an enduring spiritual element beginning in the 19th century). But Judaism has evolved over the millenia and manifests in two (not mutually exclusive) ways – religious belief and heritage. The many Orthodox sects maintain the religious belief while for others it’s a range of heritage identity.

    In fact it seems to me that Jews have a tradition of abandoning Judaism that long precedes the Christian era, it is a strict and demanding religion.

    But only in Christian and Moslem nations did Jews retain their identities because they weren’t accepted by the larger culture. The small groups of Jews that ended up in China and India all but disappeared into the larger society. That’s maybe another reason why Marxism was so attractive to Jews, being entirely secular it allowed Jews to believe that they could not only completely assimilate but exercise a greater degree of authority.

    As for being on the Left, that’s because the Left was more accepting of Jews at least until the Left had to choose between 1.5 billion Moslems or 15 million Jews, and being essentially populist the Left inevitably cozies up more to Moslems (who’ve largely decreed “them or us”).

    My own family started off as Jewish pagans celebrating Easter and Christmas (sans religion) until I fell in love with an Orthodox Jewish family that ultimately brought us into the fold. Of course the community was overwhelmingly Leftist though we gave a pass to those few who were Republican because the Jewish identity was paramount. Twenty years ago I was writing about the latent anti-Semitism of the Left (owing to the demographics mentioned above) and last year I warned my Chabad Rabbi brother that the white supremacists were getting some serious insanity from their echo chamber. He didn’t seem terribly concerned, as if he understood that Hashem makes us pay when we stray.

    • #72
  13. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    Keith Rice (View Comment):
    Judaism is an ancient religion and inasmuch, as noted by others, has become somewhat irrelevant to modern issues. Being of secular mind I tend to think of Judaism as springing from the written word and yielding the Torah which seems to me the original guide for the creation of a nation (the Christian Bible is about the individual). The “God” as described by the Torah strikes me as the ephemeral manifestation of the reality of the power of Pharaoh. I also believe that Judaism is, in reality, a remnant of ancient Egypt tempered by prevailing local beliefs upon the establishment of its independence. The former is just conjecture though based on shreds of evidence, the latter seems well established.

    @keithrice, thanks for your comment. I’m inclined to respond, since I disagree or have a different view.

    I don’t think Judaism is irrelevant to modern issues. I’d suggest that your comment comes from a superficial understanding of the religion, but I assume that comes from your atheistic views. If Judaism were irrelevant, there would be no conflicts between Judaism and Leftism of today; there are many problems between the two. I would invite my Jewish friends who have responded to this OP to join in, since as I said earlier, my own understanding is limited.

    The “God” as described by the Torah strikes me as the ephemeral manifestation of the reality of the power of Pharaoh. What motivates you to draw this parallel, particularly since G-d existed long before pharaoh? Or are you speaking from a secular viewpoint, suggesting that G-d is an invention?

    I also believe that Judaism is, in reality, a remnant of ancient Egypt tempered by prevailing local beliefs upon the establishment of its independence. I don’t know what this sentence means.

    The former is just conjecture though based on shreds of evidence, the latter seems well established. Same here. “Shreds of evidence” don’t generally present well-established arguments.

    As for being on the Left, that’s because the Left was more accepting of Jews. Really? When was this true?

    I hope I don’t sound hostile, but I am perplexed. Fleshing out or clarifying your points would be helpful, if you don’t mind. Do you still consider yourself a Jew and/or part of the Jewish community?

    • #73
  14. Front Seat Cat Member
    Front Seat Cat
    @FrontSeatCat

    Through your whole post, the key to it all is your statement about a deep belief in God.  That’s the foundation – and the hiccup for the secular world. People want to try to be good, but human nature being what it is, we fall short. I don’t think God makes the goal posts that high – but it’s too high for most, and the rejection by many to go deeper.  I am just finishing @andrewklavan s book The Great Good Thing.  It’s outstanding and I want to write about it.  It’s a journey of the spirit like I’ve never read.  Keep going Susan!  God is with you. 

    • #74
  15. ParisParamus Inactive
    ParisParamus
    @ParisParamus

    Judaism, unlike Christianity, is a faith of doing the right things; belief is actually secondary. This gives its adherents at least the impression (or illusion) or license to keep doing and being good, but discard the faith—that is why So many Jews are on the left.

    • #75
  16. Keith Rice Inactive
    Keith Rice
    @KeithRice

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    I don’t think Judaism is irrelevant to modern issues. I’d suggest that your comment comes from a superficial understanding of the religion, but I assume that comes from your atheistic views. If Judaism were irrelevant, there would be no conflicts between Judaism and Leftism of today; there are many problems between the two. I would invite my Jewish friends who have responded to this OP to join in, since as I said earlier, my own understanding is limited.

    The “God” as described by the Torah strikes me as the ephemeral manifestation of the reality of the power of Pharaoh. What motivates you to draw this parallel, particularly since G-d existed long before pharaoh? Or are you speaking from a secular viewpoint, suggesting that G-d is an invention?

    I also believe that Judaism is, in reality, a remnant of ancient Egypt tempered by prevailing local beliefs upon the establishment of its independence. I don’t know what this sentence means.

    The former is just conjecture though based on shreds of evidence, the latter seems well established. Same here. “Shreds of evidence” don’t generally present well-established arguments.

    As for being on the Left, that’s because the Left was more accepting of Jews. Really? When was this true?

    I hope I don’t sound hostile, but I am perplexed. Fleshing out or clarifying your points would be helpful, if you don’t mind. Do you still consider yourself a Jew and/or part of the Jewish community?

    I have absolutely no interest in undermining your faith in anyway so I’m not going to share my explanations for arriving at this point. I appreciate your involvement in the faith and feel strongly that Jewishness must continue into the future for its unique contribution to humanity. It’s not a relic, it’s still vital.

    I often call myself The Jew because I’m often the only Jew in my environment and the only Jewish community I have is when I visit my brother. My own Jewish identity isn’t heritage or religious belief, it’s just an important part of who I am.

     

    • #76
  17. Kay of MT Inactive
    Kay of MT
    @KayofMT

    @keithrice – You might find that a study of the evacuation of the City of Ur to be of interest. They found records of a kings list that go many thousands of years back before Abraham, and even the Egyptians, the Jews were known.

    • #77
  18. Keith Rice Inactive
    Keith Rice
    @KeithRice

    Kay of MT (View Comment):

    @keithrice – You might find that a study of the evacuation of the City of Ur to be of interest. They found records of a kings list that go many thousands of years back before Abraham, and even the Egyptians, the Jews were known.

    Thank you.

    • #78
  19. Podkayne of Israel Inactive
    Podkayne of Israel
    @PodkayneofIsrael

    SkipSul (View Comment):

    Guruforhire (View Comment):
    I think Ayn Rand works are better read as criticism in the form of Candide, than as expressions of something else.

    I find her so terrible to read that I find her better left unread.

    Her essays are a tonic. I could never stomach her novels.

    • #79
  20. Podkayne of Israel Inactive
    Podkayne of Israel
    @PodkayneofIsrael

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Shawn Buell (Majestyk) (View Comment):

    SkipSul (View Comment):
    That’s rather an oversimplification. Many of the fundamental questions were asked, answered, and re-asked time and again over the millennia. Read through philosophical and religious history and you find, time and again, many people wresting with them.

    Baruch Spinoza did a fine job of that in the 17th Century – which earned him expulsion from Judaic society and the title of heretic even though he was Sephardic.

    Not necessarily. A genius, yes. But Spinoza abandoned all forms of Abrahamic orthodoxy for a philosophical pantheism; his account was logical enough, but started with a bad premise–a bizarre and unnecessary definition of substance.

    Those who did a fine job include Ambrose, Augustine, Boethius, Anselm, and Aquinas. Probably Maimonides, but I ain’t studied him enough. Perhaps also Al-Ghazali, but I ain’t studied him enough either.

    The Rambam (Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon) was a unique genius. We say, “from Moses to Moses [ben Maimon] there has been no other.”

    • #80
  21. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    ParisParamus (View Comment):

    Judaism, unlike Christianity, is a faith of doing the right things; belief is actually secondary. This gives its adherents at least the impression (or illusion) or license to keep doing and being good, but discard the faith—that is why So many Jews are on the left.

    Your comment is interesting, @parisparamus. Before I married my husband, he asked me the basis of my belief. And I told him, with very little religious education, “To be a good person.” This is probably true for other Jews, even for some on the Left.

    • #81
  22. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    Keith Rice (View Comment):

    I have absolutely no interest in undermining your faith in anyway so I’m not going to share my explanations for arriving at this point. I appreciate your involvement in the faith and feel strongly that Jewishness must continue into the future for its unique contribution to humanity. It’s not a relic, it’s still vital.

    I often call myself The Jew because I’m often the only Jew in my environment and the only Jewish community I have is when I visit my brother. My own Jewish identity isn’t heritage or religious belief, it’s just an important part of who I am.

    That’s fine, @keithrice. I respect your comment and appreciate your clarification. I suppose my questions sounded defensive–perhaps they were. But I’m also intellectually curious about the ways that people draw their conclusions, whether I agree with them or not. Maybe some other time. ;-)

    • #82
  23. Kay of MT Inactive
    Kay of MT
    @KayofMT

    Keith Rice (View Comment):

    Kay of MT (View Comment):

    @keithrice – You might find that a study of the evacuation of the City of Ur to be of interest. They found records of a kings list that go many thousands of years back before Abraham, and even the Egyptians, the Jews were known.

    Thank you.

    I also meant to mention that the dig was so deep, they also found evidence of the “flood.”

    Sir Leonard Woolley spent 12 years working on the dig and published a book, first printing 1954, and many reprints.

    Ur was in Mesopotamia, beginning in about the 26th Century BCE.
    Anyang in China started as a stone age settlement, but became capital of emperors from about 2,000 BCE.

    • #83
  24. Peckish Cedar Inactive
    Peckish Cedar
    @PeckishCedar

    The Egyptian-origin claim has me a bit confused too.  When Moses told Pharaoh God’s name, Pharaoh gave an answer that pretty much puts in a nutshell the same answer I hear from the secular world every day.  Paraphrasing, “Who is this Yahweh that I should do as he says.  I do not know Yahweh, so I will not do as he says.”  Besides the nature of Yahweh, the only monotheism in Egypt was a brief interval of Aten who was just another placeholder god.  If Yahweh was inspired by Aten, a Pharaoh soon after Akhenaten (like Rameses II) would have known who Aten was.  If he didn’t, his Amun priests sure would have told him.  I see no evidence from his statement Pharaoh recognized anything about Yahweh. Outside the Biblical source, any student of Egyptology can also tell you there is no god, including Aten, anything remotely like Yahweh in the Egyptian pantheon.  So this begs the opposite question.  How did the Hebrews sojourning in Egypt invent a god that was completely unlike the gods being worshipped there?  Were they that imaginative?     No body in the world (including Mesopotamia and the Levant) had a god like that to mimic.  Why would they invent a god they would then rebel against for the next 4000 years?

    It tells us God revealed himself to the Hebrews (he was what he was – I am that I am) and they brought Yahweh to Egypt, to Israel, and to the world with them. There hasn’t been an Egyptian god worshipped in all seriousness for over 2000 years. Same for the gods of Mesopotamia, the Hittites, the Canaanites, Assyria, Persia, Babylon, the Greeks, the Romans, etc. and somehow the god of a peep squeak little nation stuck in the middle and rebelling against that god themselves every day along the way is still being worshipped today!  Add to that, find me any people today that identifies directly with any of these ancients peoples in ethnicity, culture, tradition, language, and religion.  You can’t. If the Jews wanted to purge Yahweh so badly and the world wanted to purge the Jews so badly, why are Yahweh and the Jews still here?  He was what He was then and He is what He is now and down deep, the Jews are also.

    • #84
  25. Keith Rice Inactive
    Keith Rice
    @KeithRice

    Kay of MT (View Comment):

    Keith Rice (View Comment):

    Kay of MT (View Comment):

    @keithrice – You might find that a study of the evacuation of the City of Ur to be of interest. They found records of a kings list that go many thousands of years back before Abraham, and even the Egyptians, the Jews were known.

    Thank you.

    I also meant to mention that the dig was so deep, they also found evidence of the “flood.”

    Sir Leonard Woolley spent 12 years working on the dig and published a book, first printing 1954, and many reprints.

    Ur was in Mesopotamia, beginning in about the 26th Century BCE.
    Anyang in China started as a stone age settlement, but became capital of emperors from about 2,000 BCE.

    Fascinating stuff.

    • #85
  26. Stina Inactive
    Stina
    @CM

    Peckish Cedar (View Comment):
    Besides the nature of Yahweh, the only monotheism in Egypt was a brief interval of Aten who was just another placeholder god. If Yahweh was inspired by Aten, a Pharaoh soon after Akhenaten (like Rameses II) would have known who Aten was.

    I though Aten and Akhwnaten were incredibly controversial at the time and that all of it was lost very quickly.

    If there was an active attempt to forget, how hard would that be? We hold on to the holocaust, but how many of our next generation will know of it? How about by 2045?

    • #86
  27. Stina Inactive
    Stina
    @CM

    Also, that quote does not necessarily communicate ignorance as much as rejection of authority.

    • #87
  28. Keith Rice Inactive
    Keith Rice
    @KeithRice

    Peckish Cedar (View Comment):

    The Egyptian-origin claim has me a bit confused too. When Moses told Pharaoh God’s name, Pharaoh gave an answer that pretty much puts in a nutshell the same answer I hear from the secular world every day. Paraphrasing, “Who is this Yahweh that I should do as he says. I do not know Yahweh, so I will not do as he says.” Besides the nature of Yahweh, the only monotheism in Egypt was a brief interval of Aten who was just another placeholder god. If Yahweh was inspired by Aten, a Pharaoh soon after Akhenaten (like Rameses II) would have known who Aten was. If he didn’t, his Amun priests sure would have told him. I see no evidence from his statement Pharaoh recognized anything about Yahweh. Outside the Biblical source, any student of Egyptology can also tell you there is no god, including Aten, anything remotely like Yahweh in the Egyptian pantheon. So this begs the opposite question. How did the Hebrews sojourning in Egypt invent a god that was completely unlike the gods being worshipped there? Were they that imaginative? No body in the world (including Mesopotamia and the Levant) had a god like that to mimic. Why would they invent a god they would then rebel against for the next 4000 years?

     

    If you believe the tale to be an accurate recounting of events then my entire fabrication has no value. But just to amuse myself I’ll thread this needle. When Pharaoh asks he’s like a lawyer, already knowing who Moses is referring to but being an ostensible divinity himself he’s compelled to position himself that the One “God” doesn’t exist.

    As for monotheism in Egypt, it no doubt existed long before Akhenaten who was drawn to it like a convert. It’s possible the authorities did try to wipe it out and in that scenario the Habiru may have been exiles. Keep in mind, the people did not become Jews until they received the Torah at Mount Sinai.

    • #88
  29. Stina Inactive
    Stina
    @CM

    Keith Rice (View Comment):
    the people did not become Jews until they received the Torah at Mount Sinai.

    Not Jews… Israelites.

    Jews were from the province of Judea (tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Ephraim?) after Israel split.

    • #89
  30. Keith Rice Inactive
    Keith Rice
    @KeithRice

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    Keith Rice (View Comment):

    I have absolutely no interest in undermining your faith in anyway so I’m not going to share my explanations for arriving at this point. I appreciate your involvement in the faith and feel strongly that Jewishness must continue into the future for its unique contribution to humanity. It’s not a relic, it’s still vital.

    I often call myself The Jew because I’m often the only Jew in my environment and the only Jewish community I have is when I visit my brother. My own Jewish identity isn’t heritage or religious belief, it’s just an important part of who I am.

    That’s fine, @keithrice. I respect your comment and appreciate your clarification. I suppose my questions sounded defensive–perhaps they were. But I’m also intellectually curious about the ways that people draw their conclusions, whether I agree with them or not. Maybe some other time. ;-)

    There was a time I enjoyed debating religious ideas but since I realized I don’t really know anything it’s just a rhetorical game for me and generally not something I care to do anymore.

    • #90
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