Trump2020: A Response to One Objection

 

One objection to re-electing President Trump in 2020 is that, because he exhibits so many of the personal traits which conservatives have traditionally condemned, his election by Republicans casts the latter as hypocrites and removes character as a dimension on which future Republicans can differentiate their candidates from those of the Democrats.

While I made this argument during the primaries leading up to the 2016 election, I think it is no longer relevant. Republicans have already elected Trump; failing to re-elect him will not in any way redeem Republicans. We live in a hostile, left-leaning media environment, and there is no voice on the left that will speak well of Republicans for rejecting President Trump in 2020. That would require a degree of charity the left is completely unwilling to extend.

Whatever damage to the moral standing of Republicans that the election of President Trump can do has been done, and nothing will reverse it or make it significantly worse. Those who think otherwise are crediting the left with more grace than there is any reason to believe it possesses.

I continue to believe that, on balance, the arguments in favor of re-electing President Trump remain compelling.

 

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  1. Weeping Inactive
    Weeping
    @Weeping

    danok1 (View Comment):

    Weeping (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):
    Richard Nixon who resigned before being impeached by the entire House and being convicted by the Senate.

    Do we know for certain that he would have been impeached and convicted? That’s a sincere question. I was only 6 or so when Watergate happened and definitely wasn’t paying any attention to politics then. Nor have I done a lot of research on the subject since then.

    So the question is an honest one: how certain was it that Nixon would have been impeached and convicted had he chosen to ride the situation out? Did he resign because he was certain Congress would remove him from office, or did he resign simply because he felt it would be best for the country if he did – that fighting to stay would cause severe damage to the public trust and he didn’t want to do that?

    From Wikipedia (yes, I know, but I’ll also pull the citation):

    Senate Minority Leader Hugh Scott, Senator Barry Goldwater, and House Minority Leader John Jacob Rhodes met with Nixon soon after. Rhodes told Nixon that he faced certain impeachment in the House. Scott and Goldwater told the president that he had, at most, only 15 votes in his favor in the Senate, far fewer than the 34 needed to avoid removal from office.

    (Citation: Black, Conrad (2007). Richard M. Nixon: A Life in Full. New York: PublicAffairs Books. ISBN978-1-58648-519-1. p. 978)

    Thank you! I don’t know why I didn’t think of doing a quick check of Wikipedia myself. My brain must not be fully functioning yet. I must need more caffeine or something – sigh.

     

    • #61
  2. GLDIII Temporarily Essential Reagan
    GLDIII Temporarily Essential
    @GLDIII

    philo (View Comment):

    Franco (View Comment): This could have been an interesting thread…

    Now so common around here that some adaptation of it ought to be adopted as the new site slogan.

    It has been, and was called BRT.

    Boring, Repetitive, and Tense……. 

    • #62
  3. cdor Member
    cdor
    @cdor

    Aaron Miller (View Comment):

    Franco (View Comment):
    No worse? How about as good or better than Reagan, and certainly better than the Bushels, Ford, and Nixon.

    What has he done that will not easily be undone by the next Democrat?

    He nominated judges, which is a crapshoot for anyone. We would expect any Republican in office to nominate similar judges.

    Most of his accomplishments have been executive orders that can be undone by the same.

    His one great accomplishment has been to push legislators to reduce the corporate income tax (double taxation) by a significant amount. That will take legislation to undo (which probably will happen).

    He’s a lame duck. Republican legislators gave him nothing.

    If his legal team successfully breaks Obamacare via SCOTUS, that would be huge. Otherwise, his presidency — like that of any Republican — has been a blip in the long march toward totalitarian government. Any mildly conservative Republican would have done as much.

    The most historically significant aspects of his first term as President are useless legislators and the continuing degradation of elections (the Mueller-media strategy). Perhaps disintegration of the GOP and conservative alliances will also prove a lasting consequence, but there were cracks long before Trump.

    A very somber and dark analysis @aaronmiller. But unfortunately one that has a great deal of validity. However, our fall to the abyss is not yet written in stone. I believe there still is a light flickering at the end of the tunnel…barely visible. If Trump loses in 2020 to one of these flailing socialists on the left–game over. Gary and Bill and Max and their ilk can all go dance a jig on the grave of this country.

    • #63
  4. Gary Robbins Member
    Gary Robbins
    @GaryRobbins

    Joshua Bissey (View Comment):

    So a constant refrain of “read the report,” and not a single detail of how a crime was committed. Just telling people to read a 400-page document.

    Sounds like someone with no specifics to point to.

    Have you read the report?

    • #64
  5. cdor Member
    cdor
    @cdor

    Franco (View Comment):

    Aaron Miller (View Comment):

    Franco (View Comment):
    No worse? How about as good or better than Reagan, and certainly better than the Bushels, Ford, and Nixon.

    What has he done that will not easily be undone by the next Democrat?

    He nominated judges, which is a crapshoot for anyone. We would expect any Republican in office to nominate similar judges.

    Most of his accomplishments have been executive orders that can be undone by the same.

    His one great accomplishment has been to push legislators to reduce the corporate income tax (double taxation) by a significant amount. That will take legislation to undo (which probably will happen).

    He’s a lame duck. Republican legislators gave him nothing.

    If his legal team successfully breaks Obamacare via SCOTUS, that would be huge. Otherwise, his presidency — like that of any Republican — has been a blip in the long march toward totalitarian government. Any mildly conservative Republican would have done as much.

    The most historically significant aspects of his first term as President are useless legislators and the continuing degradation of elections (the Mueller-media strategy). Perhaps disintegration of the GOP and conservative alliances will also prove a lasting consequence, but there were cracks long before Trump.

    He brought 5 million new jobs and presided over historic employment levels. Wages have gone up for middle and low income earners for the first time in decades. He renegotiated trade agreements with Canada, Mexico and Korea, with important negotiations with China underway, the only result possible is improvement. He moved the US Embassy to Jerusalem-something promised by every Presidential candidate since Reagan, but somehow, not delivered. Defeated ISIS by allowing our military to use different rules of engagement.

    Ended the Iran deal. Is making NATO countries pay their promised amounts. Withdrew for the ridiculous Paris climate change accords. Stopped Norma from threatening neighbors and facilities a detente between N and S Koreas.

    Forced the media out of their closet. Forced phony conservatives and phony Republicans to chose their true sides and show their true colors. Highlighted the ongoing border crisis which will ultimately have positive effects no matter what. Has and will bring more Blacks and Hispanics into the fold – more than any previous Republican. Has passed much needed prison reform.

    Given people who voted Republican tangible things so they can once again trust their vote means something.

    And there’s things he didn’t do or hasn’t done, like engage us in more foreign adventures.

    There’s even more…

    All this in an extremely hostile media and legal/intelligence environment.

    Imagine what could be done with allies in the House and Senate.

    There ya go @Franco. Well enumerated. I feel betteralready.

    • #65
  6. EJHill Podcaster
    EJHill
    @EJHill

    @garyrobbins Saying “Read the Mueller Report” sixteen times and clicking your heels isn’t going to make it so. You know as well as I do that prosecutorial proceedings are all one sided, where no exculpatory witnesses are called and no defense is offered. You proceed from “read the report” to “hang the bastard” and then have the guts to say “I’m all about the ‘Rule of Law.’”

    In this sense, we are all on the grand jury. We are not compelled to blindly accept the prosecution’s take on events. You are merely trying to incite your own mob. That’s more akin to Soviet “justice,” instead of American jurisprudence.

    • #66
  7. Gary Robbins Member
    Gary Robbins
    @GaryRobbins

    Weeping (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):
    Richard Nixon who resigned before being impeached by the entire House and being convicted by the Senate.

    Do we know for certain that he would have been impeached and convicted? That’s a sincere question. I was only 6 or so when Watergate happened and definitely wasn’t paying any attention to politics then. Nor have I done a lot of research on the subject since then.

    So the question is an honest one: how certain was it that Nixon would have been impeached and convicted had he chosen to ride the situation out? Did he resign because he was certain Congress would remove him from office, or did he resign simply because he felt it would be best for the country if he did – that fighting to stay would cause severe damage to the public trust and he didn’t want to do that?

    Of course I am not positive that Nixon would have been impeached and convicted.  There could have been the SMOD.  However, Republican members of the House Judiciary Committee who had voted against the articles of impeachment, such as Trent Lott, came out for impeachment after the release of the smoking gun tape.  Barry Goldwater told Nixon that Nixon had only a dozen votes in the Senate.  So, I think that it was likely beyond a reasonable doubt that Nixon would have been impeached and then removed.  (A reasonable doubt is a doubt based on reason.)

    • #67
  8. Gary Robbins Member
    Gary Robbins
    @GaryRobbins

    Columbo (View Comment):

    danok1 (View Comment):

    Weeping (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):
    Richard Nixon who resigned before being impeached by the entire House and being convicted by the Senate.

    Do we know for certain that he would have been impeached and convicted? That’s a sincere question. I was only 6 or so when Watergate happened and definitely wasn’t paying any attention to politics then. Nor have I done a lot of research on the subject since then.

    So the question is an honest one: how certain was it that Nixon would have been impeached and convicted had he chosen to ride the situation out? Did he resign because he was certain Congress would remove him from office, or did he resign simply because he felt it would be best for the country if he did – that fighting to stay would cause severe damage to the public trust and he didn’t want to do that?

    From Wikipedia (yes, I know, but I’ll also pull the citation):

    Senate Minority Leader Hugh Scott, Senator Barry Goldwater, and House Minority Leader John Jacob Rhodes met with Nixon soon after. Rhodes told Nixon that he faced certain impeachment in the House. Scott and Goldwater told the president that he had, at most, only 15 votes in his favor in the Senate, far fewer than the 34 needed to avoid removal from office.

    (Citation: Black, Conrad (2007). Richard M. Nixon: A Life in Full. New York: PublicAffairs Books. ISBN 978-1-58648-519-1. p. 978)

    Because Nixon had some guilt of the underlying crime.

    President Trump does not.

    Article I of Nixon’s Articles of Impeachment was “Obstruction of Justice.”  Trump literally told witnesses to lie to the Special Counsel.

    • #68
  9. JamesSalerno Inactive
    JamesSalerno
    @JamesSalerno

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

    Joshua Bissey (View Comment):

    So a constant refrain of “read the report,” and not a single detail of how a crime was committed. Just telling people to read a 400-page document.

    Sounds like someone with no specifics to point to.

    Have you read the report?

    Has anyone read the report? It was only released yesterday and it’s over 400 pages. I’m a very fast reader but I’m not reading 400 pages in 24 hours.

    Cite the page that supports your position. We are all capable of doing a “Control F” or a page # search.

    • #69
  10. Gary Robbins Member
    Gary Robbins
    @GaryRobbins

    EJHill (View Comment):

    @garyrobbins Saying “Read the Mueller Report” sixteen times and clicking your heels isn’t going to make it so. You know as well as I do that prosecutorial proceedings are all one sided, where no exculpatory witnesses are called and no defense is offered. You proceed from “read the report” to “hang the bastard” and then have the guts to say “I’m all about the ‘Rule of Law.’”

    In this sense, we are all on the grand jury. We are not compelled to blindly accept the prosecution’s take on events. You are merely trying to incite your own mob. That’s more akin to Soviet “justice,” instead of American jurisprudence.

    So, how much of the report have you read?  Not summaries or analysis by others, but the doggone report itself?

    • #70
  11. Columbo Inactive
    Columbo
    @Columbo

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

    EJHill (View Comment):

    @garyrobbins Saying “Read the Mueller Report” sixteen times and clicking your heels isn’t going to make it so. You know as well as I do that prosecutorial proceedings are all one sided, where no exculpatory witnesses are called and no defense is offered. You proceed from “read the report” to “hang the bastard” and then have the guts to say “I’m all about the ‘Rule of Law.’”

    In this sense, we are all on the grand jury. We are not compelled to blindly accept the prosecution’s take on events. You are merely trying to incite your own mob. That’s more akin to Soviet “justice,” instead of American jurisprudence.

    So, how much of the report have you read? Not summaries or analysis by others, but the doggone report itself?

    There you go again.

    No matter what each commenter’s response to this question is … all of it, none of it or a part of it … it doesn’t matter. It isn’t relevant.

    The only thing that matters is that Attorney General Barr and Deputy Attorney General Rosenstein have fully read it. They are ones duly established by the rule of Law, and in fact by Robert Mueller himself, to make this determination. And they have definitively made it. No grounds for obstruction.

    And yet you continue to tilt against windmills and rage against the night, on a right-leaning website. You speak of truth, rule of law and other inanities, while blatantly disregarding each. It seems that you arrogantly presume to know better  than AG Barr, DAG Rosenstein and everyone else here?

    I humbly suggest that you are the one who needs to be set free of your hatred of a man.

    • #71
  12. Randy Webster Inactive
    Randy Webster
    @RandyWebster

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

    Randy Webster (View Comment):

    Henry Racette: We live in a hostile, left-leaning media environment, and there is no voice on the left that will speak well of Republicans for rejecting President Trump

    There is no voice on the left that will speak well of Republicans unless they quit being Republicans.

    Absolutely not. I am an American. I am a Conservative. I am a Republican.

    I am against Trump who has Obstructed Justice, and Abused his Power.

    Read the Mueller Report.

     

    Gary, I think you need to work on your reading comprehension, unless you consider yourself a voice on the left.

    • #72
  13. EJHill Podcaster
    EJHill
    @EJHill

    Gary Robbins: So, how much of the report have you read? Not summaries or analysis by others, but the doggone report itself?

    I read the controversial passages on obstruction. That doesn’t change anything. It’s not scripture. (And we have no consensus on that for thousands of years.) It’s not some magic talisman that instantly makes the scales fall from the eyes of people you disagree with. 

    This borders on the irrational. You’ve been grasping at straws for so long now you’re probably banned in most of California.

    • #73
  14. Petty Boozswha Inactive
    Petty Boozswha
    @PettyBoozswha

    Whatever happened to “to thy own self be true?”

    Yep, Dems are hypocrites.

    Yep, the MSM are Dem water carriers.

    Yep, Hillary and Obama and Holder and the rest of that crew are corrupt.

    I still would like to be proud of a Republican President.

    • #74
  15. Franco Member
    Franco
    @Franco

    Aaron Miller (View Comment):

    Franco (View Comment):
    He brought 5 million new jobs and presided over historic employment levels. Wages have gone up for middle and low income earners for the first time in decades. He renegotiated trade agreements with Canada, Mexico and Korea, with important negotiations with China underway, the only result possible is improvement.

    Deregulation by fiat and trade deals are significant. They are also temporary. The next president can undo his work.

    Franco (View Comment):
    He moved the US Embassy to Jerusalem-something promised by every Presidential candidate since Reagan, but somehow, not delivered. Defeated ISIS by allowing our military to use different rules of engagement.

    I almost mentioned the recognition of Jerusalem as Israel’s capitol. It’s a good gesture, but it won’t affect anything. If we elect another Obama, our diplomacy with Israel will suffer all the same. We still suffer the UN.

    Good point on the rules of engagement.

    The Iran Deal — good, but Cruz would have done the same. I don’t see any lasting change with North Korea. Sadly, we have reached a point where many Republicans are wishy-washy on climate/green hysteria. Getting NATO members to pay up is good.

    Again, I’m not saying he’s a bad president. He has been better than most in some ways. But he’s a blip in history. A decade from now, we will still be hearkening back to Reagan more than Trump.

    I hope not. But the long game doesn’t happen without a short game. I don’t see how conservatism can implement permanent changes in one term or half a term as is the case here. Executive orders can be rescinded, but we get to see the world didn’t come to an end after all this stuff. That’s worth something in politics. 

    Most of this stuff was worshipped by the left and most of the right were afraid to touch these issues. The GOP will never be quite the same, and that’s a good thing. 

    • #75
  16. danok1 Member
    danok1
    @danok1

    Weeping (View Comment):

    danok1 (View Comment):

    Weeping (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):
    Richard Nixon who resigned before being impeached by the entire House and being convicted by the Senate.

    Do we know for certain that he would have been impeached and convicted? That’s a sincere question. I was only 6 or so when Watergate happened and definitely wasn’t paying any attention to politics then. Nor have I done a lot of research on the subject since then.

    So the question is an honest one: how certain was it that Nixon would have been impeached and convicted had he chosen to ride the situation out? Did he resign because he was certain Congress would remove him from office, or did he resign simply because he felt it would be best for the country if he did – that fighting to stay would cause severe damage to the public trust and he didn’t want to do that?

    From Wikipedia (yes, I know, but I’ll also pull the citation):

    Senate Minority Leader Hugh Scott, Senator Barry Goldwater, and House Minority Leader John Jacob Rhodes met with Nixon soon after. Rhodes told Nixon that he faced certain impeachment in the House. Scott and Goldwater told the president that he had, at most, only 15 votes in his favor in the Senate, far fewer than the 34 needed to avoid removal from office.

    (Citation: Black, Conrad (2007). Richard M. Nixon: A Life in Full. New York: PublicAffairs Books. ISBN978-1-58648-519-1. p. 978)

    Thank you! I don’t know why I didn’t think of doing a quick check of Wikipedia myself. My brain must not be fully functioning yet. I must need more caffeine or something – sigh.

     

    You’re welcome! And I know that feeling of needing more caffeine…

    • #76
  17. Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… Member
    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio…
    @ArizonaPatriot

    Gary, I do not have time to read a 448 page report.

    Based on a quick review of the executive summaries, here is what I find to be the key summary paragraph on the obstruction of justice issue (from the Mueller Report, here, page 214 of the pdf, page 2 of Volume II):

    Fourth, if we had confidence after a thorough investigation of the facts that the President clearly did not commit obstruction of justice, we would so state. Based on the facts and the applicable legal standards, however, we are unable to reach that judgment. The evidence we obtained about the President’s actions and intent presents difficult issues that prevent us from conclusively determining that no criminal conduct occurred. Accordingly, while this report does not conclude that the President committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him.

    You and I are both capable of reading this as lawyers, though I don’t think that either of us has been a prosecutor.

    The stated legal standard that Mueller is applying is, essentially, that the accused must prove his innocence by something like clear and convincing evidence.  The issue, as Mueller frames it, is whether “the President clearly did not commit obstruction of justice.”

    I am no prosecutor, but this strikes me as plainly the wrong standard.  In fact, it is inconsistent with the standard applied in Volume I of the Mueller Report itself, on the collusion charge, which states (page 16-17 of the pdf, page 8-9 of Vol. I):

    In reaching the charging decisions described in Volume 1 of the report, the Office determined whether the conduct it found amounted to a violation of federal criminal law chargeable under the Principles of Federal Prosecution. See Justice Manual § 9-27.000 et seq. (2018). The standard set forth in the Justice Manual is whether the conduct constitutes a crime; if so, whether admissible evidence would probably be sufficient to obtain and sustain a conviction;and whether prosecution would serve a substantial federal interest that could not be adequately served by prosecution elsewhere or through non-criminal alternatives. See Justice Manual § 9- 27 .220. 

    This strikes me as very wrongful conduct on the part of Mueller.  I do not see why he would use an inconsistent standard on the obstruction charge, other than the obvious possibility that he desired to provide fodder for opponents of the administration.

    I have not yet read any learned commentary about this, and will be curious to see whether Andrew McCarthy, for instance, shares my initial impression.

    • #77
  18. EJHill Podcaster
    EJHill
    @EJHill

    Petty Boozswha: Whatever happened to “to thy own self be true?” ..I still would like to be proud of a Republican President.

    Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall. Sometimes it’s just a luxury you can’t afford.

    • #78
  19. Gary Robbins Member
    Gary Robbins
    @GaryRobbins

    Petty Boozswha (View Comment):

    Whatever happened to “to thy own self be true?”

    Yep, Dems are hypocrites.

    Yep, the MSM are Dem water carriers.

    Yep, Hillary and Obama and Holder and the rest of that crew are corrupt.

    I still would like to be proud of a Republican President.

    In the Catholic Church there is a long list of not only Popes but Antipopes.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antipope  Can we consider Trump to be an AntiRepublican?

    • #79
  20. Aaron Miller Inactive
    Aaron Miller
    @AaronMiller

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):
    Fourth, if we had confidence after a thorough investigation of the facts that the President clearly did not commit obstruction of justice, we would so state. Based on the facts and the applicable legal standards, however, we are unable to reach that judgment. The evidence we obtained about the President’s actions and intent presents difficult issues that prevent us from conclusively determining that no criminal conduct occurred.

    Reworded for clarity: “We cannot prove that the President did not commit a crime.” 

    Well, that was never his job. This is malpractice. 

    The exposition at the end is also beyond his role. Mueller is a political hack, not a lawyer. 

    If he cared about rule of law, Mueller would have called attention to the blatant FISA abuses. Even if he found cause to continue the investigation, it was his duty to point out that the investigation’s catalyst was fraudulent.

    • #80
  21. Franco Member
    Franco
    @Franco

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

    Petty Boozswha (View Comment):

    Whatever happened to “to thy own self be true?”

    Yep, Dems are hypocrites.

    Yep, the MSM are Dem water carriers.

    Yep, Hillary and Obama and Holder and the rest of that crew are corrupt.

    I still would like to be proud of a Republican President.

    In the Catholic Church there is a long list of not only Popes but Antipopes. Can we consider Trump to be an AntiRepublican?

    Can you guys not separate your personal identities as ‘Republicans’ ( whatever that may be) from a President who ran under the banner of the Republican Party? Call him whatever you want. And you have been but, What does he have to do with you?

    And this goes both ways. If the Republican President is some absolute pillar of a man, your also being a Republican doesn’t make you one bit a better person. It doesn’t necessarily make Republicanism better either. 

    Try that concept on. I promise you will feel better.

    • #81
  22. DonG Coolidge
    DonG
    @DonG

    Fake John/Jane Galt (View Comment):

    I am on the side of the Rule of Law, and after reading about Trump’s Obstruction of Justice, Trump has forfeited his claim to renomination.

    There is your issue Gary, you want Rule of Law to drag down those you do not like. The rest of us sort of like Justice, where people do not get drug down for resisting being convicted of crimes they do not commit.

    Leftists are hypocrites on rule of law. 

    • #82
  23. Petty Boozswha Inactive
    Petty Boozswha
    @PettyBoozswha

    Aaron Miller (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):
    Fourth, if we had confidence after a thorough investigation of the facts that the President clearly did not commit obstruction of justice, we would so state. Based on the facts and the applicable legal standards, however, we are unable to reach that judgment. The evidence we obtained about the President’s actions and intent presents difficult issues that prevent us from conclusively determining that no criminal conduct occurred.

    Reworded for clarity: “We cannot prove that the President did not commit a crime.”

    Well, that was never his job. This is malpractice.

    The exposition at the end is also beyond his role. Mueller is a political hack, not a lawyer.

    If he cared about rule of law, Mueller would have called attention to the blatant FISA abuses. Even if he found cause to continue the investigation, it was his duty to point out that the investigation’s catalyst was fraudulent.

    I’ve read this several times in this thread in various forms. It’s wrong. Mueller was not hired to investigate some schmoe from the sticks, he was hired as a special prosecutor with a special mandate – to see if there was any fire behind the billows of smoke Trump was putting out, to the Russian Ambassador and Lester Holt, among others, about the continuation and deepening of his 25 years long relationships with Russian crooks and malfactors. Mueller’s office was the successor to the Independent Counsel office, who’s mission was to do more than just charge or not charge.

    • #83
  24. EJHill Podcaster
    EJHill
    @EJHill

    Petty Boozswha: Mueller was not hired to investigate some schmoe from the sticks, he was hired as a special prosecutor with a special mandate – to see if there was any fire behind the billows of smoke Trump was putting out, to the Russian Ambassador and Lester Holt, among others, about the continuation and deepening of his 25 year long relationships with Russian crooks and malfactors.

    Exactly. And he found NOTHING. What you’re pinning your hopes on has absolutely nothing to do with Russia.

    • #84
  25. cdor Member
    cdor
    @cdor

    Aaron Miller (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):
    Fourth, if we had confidence after a thorough investigation of the facts that the President clearly did not commit obstruction of justice, we would so state. Based on the facts and the applicable legal standards, however, we are unable to reach that judgment. The evidence we obtained about the President’s actions and intent presents difficult issues that prevent us from conclusively determining that no criminal conduct occurred.

    Reworded for clarity: “We cannot prove that the President did not commit a crime.”

    Well, that was never his job. This is malpractice.

    The exposition at the end is also beyond his role. Mueller is a political hack, not a lawyer.

    If he cared about rule of law, Mueller would have called attention to the blatant FISA abuses. Even if he found cause to continue the investigation, it was his duty to point out that the investigation’s catalyst was fraudulent.

    This apparently was never a counterintelligence investigation to determine how and how much Russia interfered in the 2016 election. It was always an illegal criminal investigation of a man–Trump– trying to find a crime–collusion/conspiracy. I believe the Russians that Mueller indicted may actually be completely innocent. Mueller could have just put them out there as eye candy, knowing he will never have to prove they did anything criminal. Also, going back to hacking the DNC, the FBI never took possession of the infected server. They got some kind of ghost copy from the IT outfit that the DNC hired. From this second hand sourcing the FBI and all 17 of our intelligence agencies determined with no doubt whatsoever that Saddam Hussein  had weapons of mass……no, wait, I mean they determined that Russia hacked the server.

    • #85
  26. Petty Boozswha Inactive
    Petty Boozswha
    @PettyBoozswha

    EJHill (View Comment):

    Petty Boozswha: Mueller was not hired to investigate some schmoe from the sticks, he was hired as a special prosecutor with a special mandate – to see if there was any fire behind the billows of smoke Trump was putting out, to the Russian Ambassador and Lester Holt, among others, about the continuation and deepening of his 25 year long relationships with Russian crooks and malfactors.

    Exactly. And he found NOTHING. What you’re pinning your hopes on has absolutely nothing to do with Russia.

    You have not followed my comments on this issue over the last two years. Ask this post’s author, Henry,, if you don’t believe me. I have always said this investigation was a dead end and that they were trying to pin him with the wrong crimes. I think he has much more to worry about from the SDNY prosecutor’s office. I also think Gary is right that we, as Republicans or conservatives or whatever, would be much better off if we started thinking about getting a better nominee.

    • #86
  27. cdor Member
    cdor
    @cdor

    Petty Boozswha (View Comment):

    EJHill (View Comment):

    Petty Boozswha: Mueller was not hired to investigate some schmoe from the sticks, he was hired as a special prosecutor with a special mandate – to see if there was any fire behind the billows of smoke Trump was putting out, to the Russian Ambassador and Lester Holt, among others, about the continuation and deepening of his 25 year long relationships with Russian crooks and malfactors.

    Exactly. And he found NOTHING. What you’re pinning your hopes on has absolutely nothing to do with Russia.

    You have not followed my comments on this issue over the last two years. I have always said this investigation was a dead end and that they were trying to pin him with the wrong crimes. I think he has much more to worry about from the SDNY prosecutor’s office. I also think Gary is right that we, as Republicans or conservatives or whatever, would be much better off if we started thinking about getting a better nominee.

    That’s funny. Do you think that could ever happen? Do you have anyone in mind? Are you expecting Trump to walk away? Just how badly do you want to lose? How much of our Constitutional Republic would you be willing to give up to the socialists in order to have Trump out of office, because what you are calling for will lead to a victory by one of those socialists running as a Democrat.

    • #87
  28. Petty Boozswha Inactive
    Petty Boozswha
    @PettyBoozswha

    cdor (View Comment):
    That’s funny. Do you think that could ever happen? Do you have anyone in mind? Are you expecting Trump to walk away? Just how badly do you want to lose? How much of our Constitutional Republic would you be willing to give up to the socialists in order to have Trump out of office, because what you are calling for will lead to a victory by one of those socialists running as a Democrat.

    I’ve said I support Gov. Larry Hogan, but people on this thread are tired of those arguments. I won’t belabor it. And no, I do not expect Trump to walk away until he’s doused with a bucket of tears.

    • #88
  29. Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… Member
    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio…
    @ArizonaPatriot

    Petty Boozswha (View Comment):

    Aaron Miller (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):
    Fourth, if we had confidence after a thorough investigation of the facts that the President clearly did not commit obstruction of justice, we would so state. Based on the facts and the applicable legal standards, however, we are unable to reach that judgment. The evidence we obtained about the President’s actions and intent presents difficult issues that prevent us from conclusively determining that no criminal conduct occurred.

    Reworded for clarity: “We cannot prove that the President did not commit a crime.”

    Well, that was never his job. This is malpractice.

    The exposition at the end is also beyond his role. Mueller is a political hack, not a lawyer.

    If he cared about rule of law, Mueller would have called attention to the blatant FISA abuses. Even if he found cause to continue the investigation, it was his duty to point out that the investigation’s catalyst was fraudulent.

    I’ve read this several times in this thread in various forms. It’s wrong. Mueller was not hired to investigate some schmoe from the sticks, he was hired as a special prosecutor with a special mandate – to see if there was any fire behind the billows of smoke Trump was putting out, to the Russian Ambassador and Lester Holt, among others, about the continuation and deepening of his 25 years long relationships with Russian crooks and malfactors. Mueller’s office was the successor to the Independent Counsel office, who’s mission was to do more than just charge or not charge.

    I think that you are incorrect about this.  The Mueller report addresses his responsibility in the very first paragraph to both Vol. I (on collusion) and Vol. II (on obstruction):

    This report is submitted to the Attorney General pursuant to 28 C.F.R. § 600.8(c), which states that, “[a]t the conclusion of the Special Counsel’s work, he … shall provide the Attorney General a confidential report explaining the prosecution or declination decisions [the Special Counsel] reached.”

    So Mueller was supposed to make prosecution or declination decisions, then report his reasons.  He failed to do so with respect to the obstruction charge; declined to make the obstruction decision on the basis of the governing guidelines (as quoted in my prior comment); and used a different and inappropriate standard of guilty until proven innocent by “clear” evidence.  Then, he didn’t even make a decision under this improper standard.

    • #89
  30. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Petty Boozswha (View Comment):
    I still would like to be proud of a Republican President.

    Why? I would like someone I can support provisionally, and then dump when he no longer suits. Trump fills that bill. Most of the others don’t rise to that standard. 

    • #90
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