The More Things Change, the More They Stay the Same

 

There is a guy named Andrew Yang who is running for president and opposes circumcision. He’s in infamous company since it was Hitler who said: “The Jews have inflicted two wounds on mankind — circumcision on its body and conscience on its soul.”

In the days ahead, you will hear that “just because you oppose circumcision does not mean you hate Jews” as you have heard “just because you oppose Israel does not mean you hate Jews.” Both statements are true if you believe in unicorns.

Yet circumcision could be a civilizing practice, for Hitler also said: “It is true we (Nazis) are barbarians. It is an honorable title.” Leftists are almost there. The behavior of Antifa goons is barbaric and the longings of certain elected officials are barbaric, too.

You might think that people would want to emulate Jews based on their staggering achievements down through history until the phenomenal success of Israel today. But the virus of Jew hatred runs deep.

Today we celebrate Purim and our victory over Haman, who wanted to destroy the Jewish people. The mullahs in Iran today have the same ambition.

And now we suddenly have to contend with members of Congress and a presidential candidate with Haman/Hitler-like pronouncements.

(To be clear, parents have every right not to circumcise their sons. It’s the Andrew Yangs who want to prohibit circumcision for everyone who are the problem.)

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  1. James Gawron Inactive
    James Gawron
    @JamesGawron

    MarciN (View Comment):

    James Gawron (View Comment):

    A-Squared (View Comment):

    thelonious (View Comment):

    Has anybody ever been mentally scarred, physically damaged or die from circumcision? I don’t understand the outrage either pro or con.

    I seem to have survived as a circumcised gentile.

    A and thelonious,

    As you guys know, I don’t always agree with the libertarian argument but in this case, it is so obvious a solution that one wonders about those that think otherwise.

    Regards,

    Jim

    But it is the way it’s handled now. Parents aren’t forced to do it or prohibited from doing it.

    There is no issue here.

    Marci,

    You are right unless the ludicrous left makes up an issue that doesn’t really exist. You know like they usually do.

    Regards,

    Jim

    • #31
  2. Aaron Miller Inactive
    Aaron Miller
    @AaronMiller

    DrewInWisconsin (View Comment):
    Surely he’s not so ignorant as to realize what such a ban would mean to Jews.

    To be honest, I skipped past that consideration too quickly. Yes, banning circumcision would have a much greater impact on Jews than on anyone else. 

    But it’s still very possible that this politician’s motivation regards the physical pain, so he either hasn’t yet considered the significance to Jews or is so stubborn that he won’t let himself dwell on the problem.

    • #32
  3. Doug Watt Member
    Doug Watt
    @DougWatt

    Andrew Yang is just another whiz kid that has no real life experience. He thinks he’s the smartest guy in the room and doesn’t hesitate to let you know that he has all the answers, and he can do a better job of making decisions for you than you can.

    In light of the fact that living in Arizona makes my HVAC tech far more important to me than any politician, or academic elitist let me profile some of the Dems running for President.

    Spartacus Booker – He chose the wrong side when comparing himself to Spartacus who led a revolt against the tyranny of the Roman Caesar and Senate.

    Beto – a dilettante, and lousy poet.

    Amy Klobuchar – could have played the lead in the Devil Wears Prada. Treats her staff with contempt, no reason to believe she would treat me any differently.

    Bernie Sanders – Honeymooned in the Soviet Union and never came home.

    K. Harris – a California Democrat, an immediate disqualifier.

    Crazy Joe Biden – doesn’t need any chemical help, on a natural high. Likes to get handsy with the ladies.      

    • #33
  4. OldPhil Coolidge
    OldPhil
    @OldPhil

    Vance Richards (View Comment):

    The government is $22 trillion in debt and circumcision is an issue in presidential politics?

    Maybe someone can circumcise the debt?

    Seriously, it’s the most serious problem we face today (or should be).

    • #34
  5. Django Member
    Django
    @Django

    thelonious (View Comment):

    Has anybody ever been mentally scarred, physically damaged or die from circumcision? I don’t understand the outrage either pro or con.

    I have read of two cases where physical damage resulted. 

    • #35
  6. Misthiocracy secretly Member
    Misthiocracy secretly
    @Misthiocracy

    I am unclear how opposing circumcision without consent is necessarily antisemitic.  Potentially, such an opinion could result from a person’s unfamiliarity with the Torah, or from a person’s hostility to religion in general.

    I think a person unfamiliar with the Torah could reason in good faith that if circumcision represents a Jewish man’s covenant with G-d then it should be acceptable that the decision be left up to the individual rather than the individual’s parents.

    Of course, both Genesis 14:12 and Leviticus 12:3 state that male children shall be circumcised on the eighth day after birth.  That is a very direct and specific commandment, so it really cannot be considered optional by orthodox Jews.

    An informed person who respects religious freedom must acknowledge and wrestle with this fact, but I think it’s presumptuous to declare that any person who supports criminalizing circumcision without consent is definitively motivated by hostility towards Judaism specifically when other motivations for that opinion are certainly possible.

    • #36
  7. Buckpasser Member
    Buckpasser
    @Buckpasser

    9thDistrictNeighbor (View Comment):

    I would rather know where Andrew Yang stands on female circumcision. He allegedly agreed to discuss his position with Ben Shapiro. Let’s add Ayaan Ali Hirsi in to the mix and get it all about into the open.

    Come on, we all know questions on  FGM will never be asked of a Democratic politician.

     

    • #37
  8. James Gawron Inactive
    James Gawron
    @JamesGawron

    Buckpasser (View Comment):

    9thDistrictNeighbor (View Comment):

    I would rather know where Andrew Yang stands on female circumcision. He allegedly agreed to discuss his position with Ben Shapiro. Let’s add Ayaan Ali Hirsi in to the mix and get it all about into the open.

    Come on, we all know questions on FGM will never be asked of a Democratic politician.

     

    Buck,

    I’m glad you brought this up. To compare circumcision to FGM is completely wrong. If anything, circumcision would increase sexual pleasure for the man. FGM often involves severe damage to the clitoris and is a kind of female sexual castration.

    One is a slightly strange religious practice and the other is a brutal act of misogyny. Attacking the first and ignoring the second makes sense only in terms of maintaining the narrative. Other than that this is just evil.

    Regards,

    Jim

    • #38
  9. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    Misthiocracy secretly (View Comment):

    I am unclear how opposing circumcision without consent is necessarily antisemitic. Potentially, such an opinion could result from a person’s unfamiliarity with the Torah, or from a person’s hostility to religion in general.

    I think a person unfamiliar with the Torah could reason in good faith that if circumcision represents a Jewish man’s covenant with G-d then it should be acceptable that the decision be left up to the individual rather than the individual’s parents.

    Of course, both Genesis 14:12 and Leviticus 12:3 state that male children shall be circumcised on the eighth day after birth. That is a very direct and specific commandment, so it really cannot be considered optional by orthodox Jews.

    An informed person who respects religious freedom must acknowledge and wrestle with this fact, but I think it’s presumptuous to declare that any person who supports criminalizing circumcision without consent is definitively motivated by hostility towards Judaism specifically when other motivations for that opinion are certainly possible.

    How about the motivation that some politicians know what’s best for us and our families? I find that offensive enough in such a personal matter without it pertaining to Jewish practices specifically. 

    • #39
  10. Stad Coolidge
    Stad
    @Stad

    James Gawron (View Comment):
    Hey, why don’t we get reparations for just being born?

    How about reparations to abortionists for missing out due to all the families who want to have babies?

    • #40
  11. Henry Racette Member
    Henry Racette
    @HenryRacette

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Misthiocracy secretly (View Comment):

    I am unclear how opposing circumcision without consent is necessarily antisemitic. Potentially, such an opinion could result from a person’s unfamiliarity with the Torah, or from a person’s hostility to religion in general.

    I think a person unfamiliar with the Torah could reason in good faith that if circumcision represents a Jewish man’s covenant with G-d then it should be acceptable that the decision be left up to the individual rather than the individual’s parents.

    Of course, both Genesis 14:12 and Leviticus 12:3 state that male children shall be circumcised on the eighth day after birth. That is a very direct and specific commandment, so it really cannot be considered optional by orthodox Jews.

    An informed person who respects religious freedom must acknowledge and wrestle with this fact, but I think it’s presumptuous to declare that any person who supports criminalizing circumcision without consent is definitively motivated by hostility towards Judaism specifically when other motivations for that opinion are certainly possible.

    How about the motivation that some politicians know what’s best for us and our families? I find that offensive enough in such a personal matter without it pertaining to Jewish practices specifically.

    I understand the desire to take the “keep the government out of our business” tack. The reason I’m cautious with it in this case is that there are choices I don’t want parents free to make. Female genital mutilation is one. Abortion beyond a certain fairly early stage of gestation is another. I think we’re stuck having to draw lines and make judgment calls, rather than adopt a single guiding principle that can be clearly stated.

    Circumcision is widely traditional in our culture, is modest in its physiological impact, is arguably a net beneficial procedure, and has specific and serious religious significance. That’s true of neither female genital mutilation nor, say, late-term abortion. That’s why, in my opinion, circumcision can be left a matter of choice, while other things might not be.

    • #41
  12. Stad Coolidge
    Stad
    @Stad

    James Gawron (View Comment):
    One is a slightly strange religious practice and the other is a brutal act of misogyny.

    Bingo.  Circumcision also has health benefits, but that has been under debate for ages.

    • #42
  13. Henry Racette Member
    Henry Racette
    @HenryRacette

    Stad (View Comment):

    James Gawron (View Comment):
    Hey, why don’t we get reparations for just being born?

    How about reparations to abortionists for missing out due to all the families who want to have babies?

    How about the rest of us get reparations for Stad being born?

    • #43
  14. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    I understand the desire to take the “keep the government out of our business” tack. The reason I’m cautious with it in this case is that there are choices I don’t want parents free to make. Female genital mutilation is one. Abortion beyond a certain fairly early stage of gestation is another. I think we’re stuck having to draw lines and make judgment calls, rather than adopt a single guiding principle that can be clearly stated.

    Circumcision is widely traditional in our culture, is modest in its physiological impact, is arguably a net beneficial procedure, and has specific and serious religious significance. That’s true of neither female genital mutilation nor, say, late-term abortion. That’s why, in my opinion, circumcision can be left a matter of choice, while other things might not be.

    I agree, but in order to proscribe FGM, we have to agree that some religious practices are prohibited and not others. And that would mean having to admit that Islam is incompatible with the West. And we’re not going to do that (with the Left in charge)! Therefore, expect to have to fight the battle to keep circumcision from being prohibited. 

    • #44
  15. Henry Racette Member
    Henry Racette
    @HenryRacette

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    I understand the desire to take the “keep the government out of our business” tack. The reason I’m cautious with it in this case is that there are choices I don’t want parents free to make. Female genital mutilation is one. Abortion beyond a certain fairly early stage of gestation is another. I think we’re stuck having to draw lines and make judgment calls, rather than adopt a single guiding principle that can be clearly stated.

    Circumcision is widely traditional in our culture, is modest in its physiological impact, is arguably a net beneficial procedure, and has specific and serious religious significance. That’s true of neither female genital mutilation nor, say, late-term abortion. That’s why, in my opinion, circumcision can be left a matter of choice, while other things might not be.

    I agree, but in order to proscribe FGM, we have to agree that some religious practices are prohibited and not others. And that would mean having to admit that Islam is incompatible with the West. And we’re not going to do that (with the Left in charge)! Therefore, expect to have to fight the battle to keep circumcision from being prohibited.

    You could be right.

    On the other hand, (1) I don’t think female genital mutilation actually is prescribed by Islam, and (2) I don’t think anyone is willing to attempt to defend it. I think they know it’s a losing proposition.

    • #45
  16. Gumby Mark (R-Meth Lab of Demo… Coolidge
    Gumby Mark (R-Meth Lab of Demo…
    @GumbyMark

    Vance Richards (View Comment):

    Juliana (View Comment):

    Yehoshua Ben-Eliyahu:

    In the days ahead, you will hear that “just because you oppose circumcision does not mean you hate Jews” as you have heard “just because you oppose Israel does not mean you hate Jews.” Both statements are true if you believe in unicorns.

    I do not believe in unicorns, but I opposed circumcision for my son when he was born purely on a physical basis. There was no reason for an unnecessary surgery on a newborn. That this somehow makes me a Jew-hater is preposterous. That the entire world needs to follow a Jewish religious practice or otherwise be branded as ‘haters’ is arrogance defined.

    Whether one chooses to circumcise or not isn’t the issue. This is about a politician who wants to ban the practice for everyone, which is very much an attack on the Jewish faith.

    On Muslims also.  Muslims and Jews have joined together to fight proposed circumcision bans in Iceland, Denmark, and Sweden.

    • #46
  17. EJHill Podcaster
    EJHill
    @EJHill

    This sounds like a high school creative writing assignment: Class, use the words “circumcision” and “Yang” in the same sentence…

    • #47
  18. thelonious Member
    thelonious
    @thelonious

    Django (View Comment):

    thelonious (View Comment):

    Has anybody ever been mentally scarred, physically damaged or die from circumcision? I don’t understand the outrage either pro or con.

    I have read of two cases where physical damage resulted.

    2 out of what?? A million? 200 million? People have died in low speed car crashes in parking lots. Doesn’t mean it’s an epidemic.

    • #48
  19. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    thelonious (View Comment):

    Django (View Comment):

    thelonious (View Comment):

    Has anybody ever been mentally scarred, physically damaged or die from circumcision? I don’t understand the outrage either pro or con.

    I have read of two cases where physical damage resulted.

    2 out of what?? A million? 200 million? People have died in low speed car crashes in parking lots. Doesn’t mean it’s an epidemic.

    I wonder what the damage rate was in neolithic days, when the only cutting tool was a sharp rock.

    • #49
  20. Gumby Mark (R-Meth Lab of Demo… Coolidge
    Gumby Mark (R-Meth Lab of Demo…
    @GumbyMark

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    thelonious (View Comment):

    Django (View Comment):

    thelonious (View Comment):

    Has anybody ever been mentally scarred, physically damaged or die from circumcision? I don’t understand the outrage either pro or con.

    I have read of two cases where physical damage resulted.

    2 out of what?? A million? 200 million? People have died in low speed car crashes in parking lots. Doesn’t mean it’s an epidemic.

    I wonder what the damage rate was in neolithic days, when the only cutting tool was a sharp rock.

    Ouch!

    • #50
  21. Django Member
    Django
    @Django

    thelonious (View Comment):

    Django (View Comment):

    thelonious (View Comment):

    Has anybody ever been mentally scarred, physically damaged or die from circumcision? I don’t understand the outrage either pro or con.

    I have read of two cases where physical damage resulted.

    2 out of what?? A million? 200 million? People have died in low speed car crashes in parking lots. Doesn’t mean it’s an epidemic.

    That was more-or-less my point: Two cases that I had heard of. 

    • #51
  22. Yehoshua Ben-Eliyahu Inactive
    Yehoshua Ben-Eliyahu
    @YehoshuaBenEliyahu

    Clarification:  parents have every right not to circumcise their sons.  It’s the Andrew Yangs who want to prohibit circumcision for everyone who are the problem.

    • #52
  23. JosePluma Coolidge
    JosePluma
    @JosePluma

    My OB/GYN project for my nursing program was circumcisions.  I read scientific studies and did literature reviews, interviewed doctors who performed the circumcisions, and observed the procedures.  The anti-circumcision literature reminded me a lot of anti-vax propaganda:  A lot of emotional, overwrought hyperbole with little evidence other than cherry-picked, isolated studies.  Although I thought most of these people were loons, I didn’t see any obvious anti-Jewish bias.  Of course, I also didn’t do a deep dive into the subject in a three-hour undergraduate course.  Based on the tone of the literature, I would guess that there is a large intersection of the Venn diagrams among anti-circumcision advocates, anti-vax nutcases, and BLS supporters.  Still, I saw no overt antisemitism.

    Even with the poor arguments of anti-circumcision crowd, I came to the conclusion that it was a wash.  Based just on health outcomes, circumcision prevents penile cancer and reduces susceptibility to venereal disease.  Even so, severe complications from the procedure are about as likely as cancer, and proper hygiene can also mitigate VD exposure.

    Of course, now that I’m a working nurse, I believe that all males should be circumcised, but that’s another story. 

     

    • #53
  24. Clifford A. Brown Member
    Clifford A. Brown
    @CliffordBrown

    EJHill (View Comment):
    The CDC is silent on Jews but endorses circumcision.

    I’m always worried about second-hand reporting of official claims, but here, in fact, is the CDC’s position:

    https://stacks.cdc.gov/view/cdc/13546

    • #54
  25. Podkayne of Israel Inactive
    Podkayne of Israel
    @PodkayneofIsrael

    Django (View Comment):

    thelonious (View Comment):

    Has anybody ever been mentally scarred, physically damaged or die from circumcision? I don’t understand the outrage either pro or con.

    I have read of two cases where physical damage resulted.

    Oh, as a ped surg nurse in a Jerusalem hospital, I definitely remember one case of a teenage Ukrainian kid whose circ was badly botched–not sure if it happened in Israel or the Ukraine. But all in all, considering that it’s pretty nearly universal here, there are surprisingly few complications. Lots more on tonsillectomies.

    Also anecdotally, even though there are some Jews among the post-circ obsessors, one does not get the impression that circumcised Jewish men enjoy or express less interest in or satisfaction with the sex act than uncircumcised men.

    Mr. Podkayne smiles and says cryptically, “The dial goes up to 11.”

     

    • #55
  26. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    JosePluma (View Comment):

    My OB/GYN project for my nursing program was circumcisions. I read scientific studies and did literature reviews, interviewed doctors who performed the circumcisions, and observed the procedures. The anti-circumcision literature reminded me a lot of anti-vax propaganda: A lot of emotional, overwrought hyperbole with little evidence other than cherry-picked, isolated studies. Although I thought most of these people were loons, I didn’t see any obvious anti-Jewish bias. Of course, I also didn’t do a deep dive into the subject in a three-hour undergraduate course. Based on the tone of the literature, I would guess that there is a large intersection of the Venn diagrams among anti-circumcision advocates, anti-vax nutcases, and BLS supporters. Still, I saw no overt antisemitism.

    Even with the poor arguments of anti-circumcision crowd, I came to the conclusion that it was a wash. Based just on health outcomes, circumcision prevents penile cancer and reduces susceptibility to venereal disease. Even so, severe complications from the procedure are about as likely as cancer, and proper hygiene can also mitigate VD exposure.

    Of course, now that I’m a working nurse, I believe that all males should be circumcised, but that’s another story.

    I have no issue with nurses or doctors (or religious for that matter) giving their opinion on circumcision. It’s when lawmakers do it… Why is Yang even talking about it (if he doesn’t want to ban it?). 

    • #56
  27. Stad Coolidge
    Stad
    @Stad

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    Stad (View Comment):

    James Gawron (View Comment):
    Hey, why don’t we get reparations for just being born?

    How about reparations to abortionists for missing out due to all the families who want to have babies?

    How about the rest of us get reparations for Stad being born?

    Oh, has my wife been posting about me again?  Hehe . . .

    • #57
  28. Stad Coolidge
    Stad
    @Stad

    thelonious (View Comment):
    Doesn’t mean it’s an epidemic.

     . . . until some liberal says, “One death from XYZ is one death too many.  We must address this epidemic!”

    • #58
  29. Kay of MT Inactive
    Kay of MT
    @KayofMT

    If you decide to have your son circumcised, be sure you have a doctor very familiar with the procedure. I have 4 grandsons and at least 3 of them are circumcised. I paid the fee for three of them, and had Jewish doctors preform the procedure on 2 of them at the 7th day after birth. The 2 from the Jewish doctors were perfect. The third child, the doctor non Jewish, didn’t want to wait and did a piss poor job. Mother of the child remarked many times there was all the difference in the world from the procedure by an experienced doctor and one who wasn’t. I was in attendance for one child, and his only protest was being held down. With a little Lidacane, and an expert physician, no pain and tiny bit of blood. It was over in a few seconds. All the scare scenarios are nonsense. Within a few days everything looked normal.

    I never asked about the 4th grandson, who came along many years later, nor have I asked about the 3 great-grandsons.

    I had read of a study done in the 1950 or 60s about the low incidence of married Jewish women having a low rate of cervical cancer. There are also medical reasons for the 7 day wait period. 

    In addition: Non circumcised baby’s, the mother has to everyday push back the foreskin to clean the child, and during his growth continue to teach him to clean himself. So the mother is fiddling with the child’s penis for at least 5 years until he is old enough to do it himself and actually remembers to do it. And, it doesn’t take much fiddling for the little guy to get a hard on.

    • #59
  30. Qoumidan Coolidge
    Qoumidan
    @Qoumidan

    JosePluma (View Comment):
    Of course, now that I’m a working nurse, I believe that all males should be circumcised, but that’s another story. 

    I decided to ask my Sister The Nurse, and her answer was both more boring and much worse than I thought.

    • #60
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