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On Family Men
My dad was a family man. He wasn’t necessarily the warmest of dudes when I was growing up, but he believed then and now in family. He raised his three kids to the best of his ability, and everything he did was for his family. He never cheated on his wife, never divorced (50+ years of marriage), never abused her. He whooped us kids when we needed it, but I can’t say that I was abused.
I, too, am a family man. Family comes before work, church, pleasure. The only thing I put before my kids is my wife, and the only thing I put before her is God. Most of the time anyway. I’ve been married 25 years, never cheated, never abused her or the kids. I’ve always worked to put food on the table, cleats on the feets, and gas in the car. I’m a good dad and husband. I’m a family man.
That’s why it bothers me when I read someone say they think Donald Trump is a good family man. Now, I realize I’ve already lost some of you. You are already typing your response. That’s ok. For the rest of you, let me just put aside politics and Hillary and all that and say: I’m happy with most of the accomplishments of the past 18 months. I’m absolutely glad Trump won instead of Hillary. I do not need a good family man to be President. In one sense, I wouldn’t want one. I want someone who will put his job ahead of his wife and kids. Because we need that in the White House. So, let’s put all the TDS, NeverTrump, Trumpkin, etc., aside. Let’s just talk morality.
Trump may love his kids and the wives he’s had. But he’s not a family man. Good family men don’t cheat on their kid’s mothers. They don’t go for stripper sex right after one of their children is born. We have plenty of evidence that Trump is not a moral man. So it boggles the mind that someone would say he is. Prove me wrong.
Published in General
No. However, the Katie Rule is part of Ricochet lore, and it is to let people know when they’re written about. It’s considered a courtesy. It dates back from way before you became a member.
I’m not sure what these discussions prove, other than most humans, all of us included, are prone to hypocrisies and contradictions over the course of a lifetime.
We have people yelling “He’s not a conservative!” at the top of their lungs and then turning around and yelling “Joe Biden for President!” and pushing weird theories on how the Democrats are going to save us from ourselves and not merely destroy what’s left of American uniqueness. (Pro tip: They hate you.)
I didn’t say that he had. I did suggest that he may be learning a few new things. For example, in his recent high profile foreign policy dealings (North Korea, China, Russia), he has at his side Mike Pompeo and John Bolton. Many consider those two close to the Neo-conservative camp where most others there want no affiliation with Trump since he wants peace in the world. There must be some new things to learn while making deals in this environment.
I think that Trump is a complex human being. This complexity does not excuse his past wrongs any more than someone being a simpleton should get a “get out of purgatory” free card for adultery and other major sins.
Indications are that he has finally wised up a bit about his personal life. I think his relationship with Melania is one blessed by the maturity of someone who is now 70 years old and has learned from their mistakes.
This doesn’t erase his past mistakes, in any way, shape or form. Butit should offer some support to his supporters. I personally found it extremely perplexing that people I knew were voting for Hillary in 2016 based on the “locker room talk” video of Trump behaving boorishly back in 2005.
Bill Clinton has never changed. His wife swept all his misdeeds under the rug for decades. Her aide Huma was married to the same type of creature as Bill. Yet somehow she was the better choice?
Personally I am not going to defend the morals of Trump. I could take the time to make some arguments but at the end of the day my efforts would be more, he is not as bad as his strongest critics say, not that he is a very moral person.
Even if I were willing to grant your premise that Trump knows jack about policy or conservatism , I am good with it.
You and I come from very different parts of the right. I am perfectly happy with a lot of the Policies and outcomes Trump has delivered. Even if he just stumbled on them without years of forethought.
What he has done, even if it has been by accident or for solely self serving reasons, is better than I expected from a number of the other 16 candidates on the Republican side and a lot better than Hillary or Bernie would have been.
Possibly, some make the polite assumption he has changed as a way of giving him privacy while he’s in office. With a polite assumption like that, you’re not obligated to consider the assumption very plausible, just one made as a courtesy, to look the other way for now. I can see doing that, and in fact find myself doing something like that for now.
Moderator Note:
Please impute better faith to members, even ones that are also mods. Thank you.[redacted]
It is also true that the Left became the party of inflammatory ID politics, histrionics, targeting any and all who might be guilty of a single nano-micro aggression, all these factors probably make it much easier for someone who formerly supported the Democratic Party to say, “Enough is enough. I need to take a different stance on things.”
Above and beyond that, the Dems had the time period from Jan 2007 to Jan ’11, holding not only a majority in Congress, but having a Dem President to boot. Yet they could not remember or act upon a single pledge to the rank & file.
Trump noticed this!
Instead they handed the US Postal S’s delivery service over to Jeff Bezos, making him and his Amazon monopoly the nation’s richest entity. Small time business owners bore the brunt of this wealth transfer immediately – as they paid higher postal rates for Mr B paying so little. They lost business directly to Amazon via contracts turned upside down by this new boon to Amazon.
Obama caused a 20 trillion $$s heist of our Main Street economy over to AIG and Goldman. Obama also reneged on his promise of “Single Payer Universal HC” turning it into a devastating mandate so the middle class pay what remained after the Wall St heist into the coffers of Big Insurers.
What is driving the need for people to believe that because a person has done X (even repeatedly) that that person is therefore all Y and forevermore?
What is driving the need to exaggerate what people are saying? Even when Hypatia says he’s a good family man it is only in a sense and only in a relative way. And only as counterpoint to those intent on the one-drop rule of being tainted by sin I described in the first point.
To be sure, some people are hypocrites and opportunistically so on this particular point. Few if any on Ricochet, IMO. But so what that people like that exist?
I suggest there are people who can’t get past it. Fine. We tried bringing them along. Time for the rest of us to keep plugging away in the here and now. I present myself as an example. Few were more opposed to SSM than me; few would talk and argue about it to the bitter end of several-hundred-comment-long posts like I would. Then the Supreme Court spoke – and I moved on. All the words have been said and there’s nothing more to be done. If I’m still alive in forty years I’ll be sure to come back to eat crow or take a victory lap of I-told-you-so’s. But what is the point of continuing to turn it over and over and over?
How can you know that? Ability to read the future?
My father loved my mother and he loved all his children He worked hard his whole life and he provided. He passed before my mother became debilitated with dementia. We were all grateful that the order was not reversed. I am not sure how he would have handled it (how could I?) but we were all grateful to not have had to find out.
I’m with Spin. I’m not on balance unhappy, in general terms, with his performance as president. I’m not interested in relitigating 2016. I’m glad Hillary is not president.
I just also cringe at descriptions of Trump as some kind of moral exemplar. I would not want to be his friend. I would not welcome him to my home. I would be apoplectic at the notion of my sister or daughter dating him.
I respect the office of President. I’m mostly neutral with a favorable lean on the performance of the current occupant. I think the man is scum. And that seems to make me anathema to 90% of the Ricochetti that still bother to post or comment on the subject of Trump.
To be fair, Spin, the comments are all over the map.
“good family man”, “good father”, I think the word “moral” even showed up at one point.
As the mother of four adult children with many peers, I know how rare it is to get along with all of your children.
My four all speak highly of their father (I hope they do about me as well, but I don’t know) and in that regard he is without peer. Almost all of his close friends (and mine) have at least one kid that they have a difficult relationship with.
That having been said, we’re waiting now for a friend to show up from Baltimore. He cheated for years with multiple women on his first wife; got divorced, hounded around for a while. Remarried. Cheated again. I think he’s been a little bit disappointing as a provider, he has not managed his finances well.
He has two adult children. And they’re great. They’ve turned out well and he has a wonderful relationship with both. And their mother. I was in both their company last year; the atmosphere was good and they get along well and speak highly of each other.
I don’t think we ever have all the information necessary to make an accurate assessment, or prediction, about family matters and marriages.
My kids are terrific but there’s a few stories, that if you heard without context and not knowing us, would cause you to roll your eyes and seriously wonder about me as a mother, my husband as a father and would lead you to conclude I have a very screwed up family.
Another phrase to add: moral exemplar.
And no, @amyschley, I don’t know why you feel that makes you “… anathema to 90% of Ricochetti that still bother to post or comment on the subject of Trump.” You’ve got lots of company.
I am considerably more pro-Trump than you are. I join you in your reaction to the idea of Trump dating my daughter or sister
Here’s what perplexes me. Why all the focus on Trump’s sinful personal life from people claiming Christian values? Where is the forgiveness, which would seem to be, um, one of the top two themes of Christianity (and the other doesn’t count). If his “wives” (there can only be one, Mt 19) have forgiven him, who the hell are you to hold it against him??!
Repent and be saved!
Has he? God only knows.
@fredcole can defend himself, but the premise of your question is that libertarians are ok with immoral behavior, and that they can’t judge someone who is immoral.
I am not in the least bit happy to be 60 years old. But with the perks of age, I have perspective and enough brains to withhold judgment on other’s lives and families.
I’ve been proven wrong on way too many occasions.
Kids that I saw grow up with parents I thought lacking turned out terrific. Kids who had nothing but good, supportive parents have been huge disappointments to their parents.
My brother in law spent 3 years in federal prison. Odd, his children are all adults now and are wonderful people. Was he a good father (while at the same time an immoral business man) or did he just get lucky and pull three great kids out of a deck?
How the hell do I know?
That having been said, DT has had a very complicated and messy personal life. That he has five children who by all accounts adore him and admire him is worth a shout out and worthy of note, mainly because I find it extraordinary.
Yeah, Rattler–‘cep’n it was you, now warn’t it, ma’am, who was the first to write about me, in li’l ol’ Comment 4….
You bruise mah heel, I’ll crush yore head, like the Good Book sez…
Obviously I’ve been wrong before in reading the future. I’m going by Trump’s past behavior, and a strong suspicion that without the present constraints on his personal life, he would continue to behave as he has. I don’t buy for a minute some of the arguments that he has fundamentally changed. Like the OP, I’m happy he’s president, and he’s exceeded my expectations with what he’s done in the policy arena. But I have no illusions as to who he is. I’m not hostile towards him, and not even contemptuous. But if he were a relation, I wouldn’t be particularly proud of him.
Chances are, given their age differences, it will be Trump who declines before his wife does, and it will be she who has to face those kind of challenges.
Have at it, milady.
I’m with Hypatia all the way on this.
Let me explain. Marital fidelity is not and should not be the only measurement of being a “family man” in the sense Hypatia meant it. Sex is not the only thing a marriage is based upon, and if a couple choose to have a more open relationship in that regard they still can have a tremendously strong and loving marriage. It might not be advisable, I don’t know, and Spin or anyone can judge as they please, but I believe they are being at least a little hypocritical or a lot naive. The amount of infidelity in the modern world is beyond enumeration. This is even more prevalent with famous people. You watch them on tv every day and in movies, you listen to their music and read their books, articles and comments( ahem). I’m having real trouble calling 90% of humans immoral on that basis alone.
The only two professions where this activity is minimized is in conservative politics and the clergy, and the former is mostly because of the threat of scandal and the latter is due to devotion combined with reduction of access and temptation.
We aren’t even talking about masterbation. Some women consider that ‘cheating’ and they’re not far wrong ( very impractical, but not too far off)
It’s quite fine there are exemplary men and women who honor this code of fidelity, but I’m not going to automatically admit them into my admiration unless I know they are absent other failings, vices and immoralities. Gamblers and drug addicts, alcoholics cheat their families, workaholics too sometimes.
I try to stay away from judging. For one thing, I know I could be or could have been a better family man. But I have two kids from two marriages and they think I’m a great dad, and my second wife hasn’t divorced me yet ( and I’m not planning to either, although I think about it sometimes as my kids are grown)
I also have seen some real damage to families done with this code applied. I know of one guy who was faithful and a great provider and father but he succumbed to a tempting moment at a batchelor party, his wife found out and divorced him. He was beyond repentant but no deal. Great mom for the kids! Not.
I often think the European model of marriage might be more “moral” because it allows for human nature and it doesn’t deprive children of their fathers.
I don’t know if he’s changed or not.
And you have absolutely no idea how he would handle a challenge like described. I’ve been shocked more than once – as I’m sure you have – with people behaving in a fashion I would not have predicted. That’s happily shocked, and on other occasions shocked and appalled.
I knew my father for 50 years. I knew him very, very well. I have no idea how he would have handled my mother’s decline. Having no confidence in my own father’s reaction, I am certainly not going to pose an opinion about DT’s.
I’m coming across stronger than I intend; I have a knee jerk reaction to comments that are opinions and predictions stated as fact.
Indeed. Also if I’ve learned anything from the SSM wars it’s this: sacramental marriage is not civil marriage and vice versa. Civil marriage is only a contract between the participants and a vehicle for the government to apportion benefits. There is no moral component possible with civil marriage which is not freely chosen – or declined – by the participants. Honoring commitments is a moral angle for sure, but we simply don’t know what the agreement of the participants in these marriages has been or if any of these actions constituted a breach.
I can so identify with you.
Also, I’d be interested to see this played out on a level playing field. I wonder what would happen if we could put Spin in a famous billionaire suit traveling the world and see how his fidelity holds up through 30 years.
Worth a repeat. Thanks for posting.
No. The premise of the question is based on the Libertarian assertion that what one does in one’s private life does not and should not be of anyone else’s concern. They justify prostitution, drug use and all other sorts of “victimless crimes.” But suddenly it’s an issue with Trump. Which means that most of the preening moralizing is a moral code of convenience when it comes to Trump. In the same way atheists preach Christian values about healthcare, welfare and other social programs. Neither “Jesus hates Trump’s philandering” or “Jesus thinks you should pay a 60% tax rate,” doesn’t persuade me (or anyone else).
I’ve been a completely faithful husband for 55 years. However, I’ve never had my faith tested because no woman—and I would remember this—has ever asked me to go to bed with her. Is virtue really virtue when it isn’t tested? Probably not.
Or are women more subtle than that? Do they perhaps bat their eyelashes at you? Or do they say things with double entendres? Or is it body language, perhaps an almost imperceptible wiggle of their hips? I don’t know about these things. So am I virtuous because I’m too dense to recognize signals?
Please tell me about these things. Wait, never mind. I’m 80 now and it won’t do me much good now.
Midget and Hypat! You’re getting the menfolk all stirred up here on Ricochet with your little spat. You know, don’t you, that all men—it’s a scientific fact—like a good cat fight? Are you teasing us? At any rate, please carry on.
Mr. Cole, you’re doing it again with your exaggerated denunciations of Trump. Now stop it! You get us all excited.
Some would do well to remember these words: “Great Spirit, help me never to judge another until I have walked in his moccasins.”
Quoted because I needed an opportunity to Like this post one more time. Thank you for your post.