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Dressing for Success: Wrong?
The post on tattoos got me thinking. What is the difference between the ways we choose to dress, the ways in which we personally groom, and even tattoos? After all, see how women dress differently before and after Third-Wave Feminism.
It seems to me quite appropriate that people, who are in our society free to choose how they present themselves, are inviting judgment based on those choices. If one dresses Goth, one chooses to fit in with Goths. Everything from long hair to the color of our fingernails to whether or not we shower … they are all ways in which we signal to ourselves, and others, how we view them.
I merely use the data that people supply. A woman who dresses cheaply is telling us how she views herself, and telling others the same thing — which helps everyone to prioritize how they invest their time. Someone who does not shower either lacks a sense of smell, friends who care about them, or any desire to attract people who don’t care for body odour.
Are my preferences really as @phenry labeled them: “Judgemental, closed minded, and full of a sense of superiority?”
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One hears tales of popular lake resort areas…
Though I don’t know if milling about on a boat counts as walking around.
I’ve said for more than 40 years that I’m surprised at the lengths to which women will go to make themselves unattractive.
EDIT: I guess I should quit being surprised.
I live in New England; despite the liberalism, we are still fairly puritanical around here. I mentioned a swim suit shop that sold very immodest swim suits in an earlier comment; that shop was on a New England beach, but I didn’t see anyone on that beach wearing anything that remotely resembled anything in that shop. I have a feeling the shop probably didn’t last, though I don’t know.
When I lived in Hawaii over 20 years ago, there was a huge debate about whether G strings should be illegal: people actually were wearing them on the beach. Which I am pretty sure would be unthinkable in New England even now. So, it differs a lot from place to place.
I have thought about this before.
Lets make this more nuanced.
Instead of showing up to a job interview in a nice suit and tie outfit, a job candidate shows up in formal/traditional African outfit. Well made and it certainly takes no less effort. Its not messy, ugly or what not its just different.
So do immediately disqualify him? Do you actively fight back your natural bias against such an outfit, and hear him out? There is no correct answer. Its just an interesting thought exercise on ones bias.
Myself I like to see effort put into ones appearance more then a particular style.
Actually there is a correct answer. I assume (correctly) that this applicant is not who I’m looking for (unless I’m in HR at the UN or at a singing telegram service) and say “NEXT!”
I was working at a satellite op center in White Sands as a greenhorn out from headquarters. I wore the usual suit like I would have normally for my east coast corporate norm. The local staff were in business casual to blue jeans and t-shirts. I switched on the third day to the casual outfit that I had packed for the flight home and the folks who had been too busy to work with me the first couple of days suddenly adopted me as one of their own and kept me very busy.
The east coast is the only place I wore a suit again, and even there there were culture issues. At Apple, they might have wanted a suit on a sales call but technical consultants were usually business casual in the office and on client site.
One huge midwest client with a very large software product line I spent some time with recently had an developer culture that was not only casual, but flip flops and cargo shorts and gym clothes were common, and, a few times, pajamas were seen. In some niches there, dressing down would be a competitive event.
I still wear a suit when the occasion calls for it, but not ties. I have some renegade bone growth in my neck and just the slightest pressure on the throat from a collar or a tie will cause gagging and discomfort.
Why is there an assumption that I have a “natural bias” against a “formal/traditional African outfit”?
Good question. I know I would have no problem hiring such a person.
Because most people do.
We have all kinds of bias. This one is pretty typical.
Depends.
If he’s an African immigrant, then that could very well be his Sunday best, and I’d appreciate the effort.
If he’s a native born American with no connection whatsoever to Africa, then that’s probably a sign that he’s an activist carrying a [redacted]load of baggage which will probably cause friction among the rest of the employees.
If I were hiring for a low skill starting position — the kind that an immigrant or young kid or even a middle aged adult who’d fallen on hard times and was starting all over again — and someone came in having clearly done their best to look their best, even if that meant atypical interview clothes (e.g. another culture’s traditional garb or a Sunday dress) I would cut them some slack. If I decided to hire them, I’d explain what I expected them to wear to work and make it clear they should start meeting that expectation as soon as possible. But yes, obvious effort can make up somewhat for formality, particularly in career areas where suits wouldn’t necessarily be expected for every day wear anyway.
Of course, it really depends on the career field. One of the cautionary tales about interviewing the law school had was the girl who thought dressing her best for an interview meant wearing an outfit more appropriate for watching the Kentucky Derby in a box seat than working in a law firm.
And if They are, so what?
Judgemental: every human being Who has ever lived, is living, and will live was, is, and will be judgemental. Doing it is easy. Admitting seems to be the hard part.
Imagine watching tv and the broadcast is interrupted with the President of the United States sitting in the Oval Office in His suit and states, “Russia has just launched nuclear weapons against the US and We are retaliating at this moment.” You’d think, “We’re all gonna die.” Imagine the President wearing a v-neck tank top and saying the same words. You’d think, “the Man’s crazy and needs to be locked up.” Imagine the President on the beach in a lounge chair with the v-neck. “He’s getting some sun.” In the same lounge chair on the same beach, but in the suit? “The Man’s crazy and needs to be locked up.” Appearance matters.
Think of Yer significant other? You judged Them on Their appearance (and still do) and They judged You (and still do); be it looks, clothes, race… all of it.
Closed minded? Absolutely. An open mind would allow any fool to put anything in it.
Superiority? Absolutely. There is a hierarchy of people, cultures, nations…. There are refined tastes, some would say discriminating. There’s fine wines and there’s Night Train. Silk vs. yarn. Cadillac vs. Hyundai. English vs. slang. Imperial vs. Metric. America vs. [insert any other nation here]. If Yer superior, so what? Show it. Display it. Don’t ever let anyone make You lower Yer bar.
Count Me as one Who is “judgemental, closed minded, and full of a sense of superiority.”
You go, Jimmy!
Since most employers will be looking for someone who can do the work without causing a lot of drama, job seekers would do well to present themselves in the manner of those who are in that work environment already. On your own time, do what you want. A co-worker of mine used to say “Every day is a job interview.” Tats, piercings and un-natural hair colors are difficult to impossible to change on a daily basis and might convey a lack of ability to fit into the workforce or project the image that the employer desires.
Or Reed College on a Monday. Only drop the bottoms as well.
This is a good point. If the office is business casual, showing up in a coat and tie can be just as inappropriate as flip-flops and shorts.
It will be interesting to see how it develops over time. I have seen for instance Aboriginal ornamentation being worn with a suit. I however suspect modification of the suit over time more so then wide acceptance and use of another culture’s formal ware.
Most people do? This is news to me. I don’t think it’s typical at all. I’ve never known anyone to react negatively to those kinds of outfits. In fact, I know several people who travel to and from Africa a few times a year, and even white guys like me who dress in traditional African garb when they’re over there.
And then there is the traditional garb of another country:
And you just know Sean Connery’s wearing it properly.
Really? Never meet one person who thought they were odd? Anyway, differences and certain traits triggers bias in us. Most of us are well socialized that we over come this. But it still exist. There is enough studies out there that show race, gender, clothing, accents and even having straight teeth matters in our decision making process when hiring someone. Its just natural, being aware this allows to push back on it.
This not a condemnation of anyone.
Nope. Not odd. Rather, most people I know think traditional African clothing looks pretty awesome. Now that I think about it, a friend of mine has a few such outfits and they look pretty comfortable to me.
Like I said, I know several people who travel to Africa a few times a year. I have a co-worker with adopted children from Ethiopia. Another friend who does frequent medical missions to Kenya. He and his wife also have two children from Ethiopia. A guy from our church who helps small business start-ups in sub-Saharan Africa.
Never really thought about it, but is this unusual?
I think I know more people who travel regularly to Africa than I do people who travel to Europe.
1970s: “I have a brain, you know.”
2010s: “Nevermind, look at my boobs.”
It wasn’t so long ago that women wearing makeup were considered ‘Painted Hussies of low moral character ‘.
But societal and cultural standards evolved. Good luck finding any American woman of any level of class or character today without any makeup. Most would not leave the house, some even their bedroom, without it. In fact, not wearing makeup today can be seen by some as the equivalent to being poorly dressed or unkempt.
Yet I picture some old codger sitting on his porch shaking his cane and screaming ‘Painted Hussies!’ at every woman that walks by.
Is he the last sensible moral person in town, or an out of touch ossified old grump?
Watch out, folks, or you might find yourself on the porch shaking your cane.
I have tried to help some on this and the tattoo thread realize that these kinds of snap judgements based on appearances and cultural differences are unwise, inaccurate, and based on ignorance.
In response, mostly I see people who are steadfast, secure, and even proud of their ability to judge and discount other people based on the most superficial cultural differences. Oh, they would never
admit itEDIT: feel that way in respect to cultural differences like African dress, but when that cultural difference is within their own country and between generations, they proudly declare their superiority.I’m done trying. Cling to your hateful prejudices and snap judgements. It’s your right. And I will cling to my belief that the full measure of a man is something far deeper and more substantial, and that those who would reject, shun, and disrespect someone on such a flimsy basis are the ultimate losers. They will never know some truly fine, capable, responsible and respectable people.
I find it ironic that the people speaking out against prejudging are proudly prejudging me to have some kind of bias against Africans.
Which is so close to calling me a racist that there’s really no difference.
My response to this accusation would violate the code of conduct. You’ll just have to use your imagination.
I hope you don’t think that’s what I was doing? I’m just saying that prejudging someone because their culture includes tattoos is not really different than prejudging someone because their culture includes African dress or Kilts or whatever. Even if that cultural difference is between generations rather than geography.
If I left the impression that I think you are prejudiced against Africans I apologize, it was a failure of communication on my part.
I have made an edit to my wording on the previous comment to try to more fairly represent my meaning. Again, I apologize that I came off sounding like I was accusing anyone of racism.
It was weird decades before Austin was twinkle in the Texas eye.