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To Trump or Not to Trump: A Response
As all of Ricochet will be shocked to learn I disagreed strongly with EJHill’s recent post regarding what he sees as the binary choice before us this cycle. I don’t have much to add here that I didn’t already express in the comments of that post, but I would like to point everyone to a piece by Ricochet alumna Rachel Lu:
So here’s the situation as I understand it. We have a lot of deeply alienated conservative voters who, strangely enough, actually supported conservative principles that now seem to have been carelessly jettisoned. Some are sufficiently upset that they’ve left the party or at least declared they won’t vote for Trump. Those people could make the difference in the election.
What are we doing to win them back? Heaping on the blistering scorn! It’s a pretty great strategy. Hurled insults rarely fail to appease disgruntled voters.
I lied when I said I didn’t understand. I do. What we’re seeing is a lot of poison-pen personal therapy. Everyone is angry, and ranting in public is a great stress reliever in times of political turmoil.
Nevertheless, if you want to win this presidential election, I recommend investing in a stress ball, and dialing back the printed scorn. Maybe Trump supporters aren’t the only voters in America who like feeling respected? Here are some suggestions from a Never Trump conservative for talking more constructively with conservative voters who truly loathe our nominee.
Rachel proceeds to lay out five techniques that would assist Trump supporters in their efforts to win back disaffected conservatives, but it is number 2 that I find the most valuable:
2. Don’t Try to Nice Up Donald Trump
Aggressive efforts to rehabilitate Trump may have helped him make headway with less-engaged voters. It’s not going to work on Never Trumps. They tend to feel the rehabilitation effort has already deeply compromised the conservative movement.
Consider how this might look to a person who truly loathes Trump. He watches as friends or favorite writers dip their toes gingerly into the Trump tank (because he’s better than Hillary!). A week later the same person decides Trump isn’t really so bad at all. Six weeks later he might be crowing about Trump’s Ciceronian statesmanship and heartfelt love of the common man.
We’ve seen many sad and desperate attempts to project wildly unrealistic visions onto the mogul. Everyone’s clutching at the thinnest straws to prove Trump is what they want him to be. Never Trumps aren’t buying it. This is a man who has spent most of his life selling people out and taking people in (not in a hospitable way). To say he is untrustworthy and of established bad character is something of a comical understatement.
Have our conservative allies forgotten that, or do they just not care? It’s excruciating to see people you respect become so deeply deluded. (Whenever I say something even mildly sympathetic to Trump, I get messages from alarmed readers effectively begging me not to go to the Dark Side. I understand how they feel.)
Even if you don’t agree with Never Trumpers’ evaluation of Trump (and Trumpism), you should at least be able to appreciate there are many non-ridiculous reason for distrusting both. Such an acknowledgement will earn you some credibility; downplaying the awful will not.
It is the slow creeping way that I have seen many of my former allies move from rejection, to acceptance to cheerleader that has been the most disheartening element of this particular cycle and I think Rachel hits the nail squarely on the head here.
The one thing to keep in mind is that despite its unfortunate moniker very few people are actually #NeverTrump. Human beings are persuadable on almost every issue, the problem is that we have just given up trying. I can attest that even I can be persuaded off strongly held positions. After an immensely enjoyable two days in San Francisco with @JamesofEngland (#MiniRicoMeetup, Hi @peterrobinson!!), I have been thoroughly convinced not to vote for Gary Johnson – who I previously held as the only ethically un-compromised candidate in the election. This was accomplished through patience, relevant facts about the candidate in question and mutual respect. I learned a lot of lessons over the last two days – the primary being that patience is more persuasive than righteousness. A lesson I should have learned long ago – thank you Ricochet!
Published in General
I think it’s funny that people who turned out to be nevertrumpers, as soon as Trump started getting some traction, immediately started heaping scorn on Trump voters. If I remember my comment at the time, and this was when we all still thought Trump would lose; it was something to the effect that you don’t win elections by alienating 40% of your base. I still feel the same way, and think it’s stupid for Trump supporters to scorn people they might convince to vote for Trump. But I do think Rachel is being a little hypocritical, given nevertrumper history.
Note:
Per the CoC, All Caps changed to itals.It is difficult to understand a viewpoint that you find alien, and the very human temptation in these cases is to imagine why a person would hold a view that you find unfathomable, and assign these imaginary views to that person/ those people. I don’t think any ideology has a monopoly on this phenomena. As the Trump cheerleading/ apologist crowd gets larger and louder, those of us who do not understand enthusiastic Trumpism find ourselves in a weird world, surrounded by walking contradictions and cognitive dissonance. I struggle as lifelong rock-ribbed conservative friends and family members make the trek from reluctant supporter to booster, and I feel like the universe is on its ear. On top of that, the lack of self-reflection in people whose views I know and have discussed hours upon hours is incredibly frustrating. Do you not remember what you said a year ago, for the love of Pete?? I can empathize with a reluctant vote, but principled people providing strong support is something I cannot wrap my brain around. FWIW, this is why I have disliked (and now have a mild injury wish for) Sean Hannity for about 10 years. Tribalism is ugly.
I won’t ever become a Trump booster, but I will vote for him. The alternative is too horrible to contemplate.
I have commented more than once that the only thing that ever tips me toward Trump is watching Hillary supporters and Hillary commercials make their case. And if I had to spend 15 minutes actually listening to the witch speak, I think I would vote for Charles Manson just to see her defeated.
But then the Trump supporters help out by tipping me back. By reminding me why I was #nevertrump in the first place. It’s a useful public service, and I appreciate it.
But Jamie and Rachel have a point. I don’t really want to be persuaded. After more than a year of listening to him, I’m pretty confident in my assessment of Trump’s intelligence, policy knowledge, moral character, and trustworthiness, and they are all abysmal. But I suppose it is possible that my mind could be changed (see “listening to Hillary,” above).
I don’t mind the scorn, so much. Hey, I’ve spent my adult life as an outspoken Republican living in deep blue Los Angeles. I’m used to scorn. What is not going to change my mind, though, is listening to Trump supporters sound exactly like marks who have been taken in by a con man. Because that just reminds me that Trump is a con man.
I think you could say that about me but I’ve never known Rachel to heap scorn on people for voting for Trump.
I think not understanding is fine, but that shouldn’t lead to derision. A lesson hard learned on my part.
The problem with convincing me on to Trump is that there simply isn’t anything new of substance that undermines all the previous things I have seen and heard from him. He can change his tone and words, but his previous rantings have made me not put any faith or stock into anything he says. What actions or new history about him can there be revealed this late to undo all I have already seen? Perhaps some great explanation from him personally might move me, but nothing his supporters can say will. The same might some how also be true of Clinton. But really no one expects this from either of them. Trump will have his chance to convince me again of his merit when I see him govern. Until then I just have the hodgepodge of his varying positions, his checkered biography, and public outbursts.
I didn’t want to be specific. Concretevol was pretty hard on Trump voters. We used to go round and round at the office. It’s been a year, and my memory isn’t what it used to be. Rachel was just handy.
Dunno if never-Trump votes matter, sorry to say. I’d bet the election is going to be pretty close & it’s going to go to a few states–what it takes to win there is beyond my ken.
But I think Mrs. Lu makes a good argument with a somewhat different scope–the GOP & conservatism–& Ricochet!–are going to have to find ways to live next year, too. That requires some gestures in the direction of mutual respect.
“Enthusiastic” Trump voters, yep. Reluctantly Trump to stop HRC? Not at all. As for being pretty hard on those that got us in this mess in the first place during the primaries? Guilty as charged.
Actually, I was talking about during the primaries.
What’s with this (from Rachel) then?:
Of course, people aren’t actually going to stop tearing into Never Trump. Most likely it will all get worse, especially if Trump loses by narrow margins. That’s why I’m taking the trouble to observe now that Never Trump’s blistering detractors are hypocrites. They may want to win the election, but they don’t want it enough to risk their pride.
An accurate analysis of how Trumps supporters are now acting exactly as they accused NeverTrump of acting during the primaries.
Rachel is talking about a subset of Trump supporters, i.e. “Never Trump’s blistering detractors” not all Trump voters.
Now, one can agree or not with her claim of hypocrisy, but there is no reason to assume that it applies to all Trump supporters.
What about the claim, “Well, we don’t need #NeverTrump votes, anyway!”, yet, they still keep attacking them for not getting on his train.
Ijust thought it an odd juxtaposition to the rest of her article, in which she seems to encourage bridge-building, and then blows it all up in the final paragraph.
We need every vote in this election.
As likely was the case in 2012, the fraud will be epic and well-concealed. A Republican needs 30% more to counter the media bias and 10% more to counter the fraud. Never-Trump is a conceit we can’t afford.
You get Trump or you get Clinton. I don’t think there’s any other analysis necessary.
Aww. I feel a little sad being called a Ricochet “alum”, but I guess that’s probably fair. I haven’t been around much lately.
I still love you, Ricochet. Thanks for posting this, Jaime!
From one NT to another, I will admit that the last few weeks have shaken one of my reasons for disliking him, namely the impression that he is undisciplined and uncontrollable. Kellyanne Conway is a borderline miracle worker.
That doesn’t erase the other reasons I have for holding out, but it’s not nothing.
It’s not nothing is a phrase I use far more these days than in the halcyon days of my boyhood. I do not relish the change.
What evidence do you have of widespread election fraud in 2012?
I speak for many longtime members when I say we couldn’t be more proud that you’re expanding your audience beyond us malcontents.
Although I’m reluctantly for Trump, he’s now all I’ve got. He’s my guy. In for a penny, in for a pound. So call me a cheerleader. But, I do agree that criticizing or antagonizing NeverTrumpers is probably nonproductive. I hope they ultimately decide to pull the lever for Trump, but I doubt that name calling will achieve that.
Sail on, silver girl?
@rachellu, let me quote from the full article:
“I am not suggesting all Trump supporters would respond in this way. But many do. I just have to observe that it’s hard to take a principled stand for “consent of the governed” while blithely flipping everyone who doesn’t agree with you off the boat. If you want to keep people on board the Republican train, “My people are more American than yours” is an awful, awful argument to employ.”
I find this rather an odd observation as this had effectively been the response I had received when discussing Trump’s earliest and most ardent supporters LAST YEAR – that they were less American and ought to be marginalized out of the party. I rather wish your side had taken your advice to heart a year ago, might have spared some of the turnabout now. It is asking for mercy and quarter from those who were offered none, and it would be well to acknowledge that some of the heat your side receives now stems from just that.
I don’t recall arguments that they were less American, less conservative maybe.
“Here’s the thing: Anyone who would find [voting against Hillary] convincing is convinced. I don’t know many Never Trumpers who seem blasé about the evils of a Clinton presidency. (There might be a few. But very few.) Most just feel that supporting Trump in any way would involve an unacceptable compromise of personal integrity. If we must have a corrupt, dictatorial leader, we at least prefer not to have voted for that person. Tyranny is always involuntary. Let’s call a spade a spade.”
Some quibbles here:
It is a cop out of high order to claim that tyranny is always involuntary – all too often it is entirely voluntary, either by voting for a tyrant or by choosing not to oppose one. People vote themselves into chains rather frequently, even when they lie and call them silk ropes.
Secondly, if you (in the general NT sense, not you personally) would rather not hear about Hillary, then cease insisting that us reluctants keep trying to convince you at all, as that is our best weapon. Withdraw from the argument and be honest that you are immoveable. It is in utterly bad faith to argue or debate with someone if you enter the argument to neither persuade or be persuaded but merely tear down and show your immoveable nature.
So, if #NeverHillarys were just more obsequious, you might see things our way? Sorry, that seems an immature response to me.
When I say I don’t understand the logic of your position, I’m being completely sincere. I think Midge provided a clue in that you place more weight on Trump’s negatives than we #NeverHillarys do. I’m truly interested to understand how you’re making your measurements. So, if you put SCOTUS, Obamacare, Energy, Immigration, National Security, and Internet Freedom in Trump’s column, what issues of equal weight do you put in Hillary’s?
What I suspect is, you disagree (not just distrust) with Trump’s position on some of these (immigration?). I do not find the “trade war” concern plausible, unless you believe the Republican led Congress will rubber stamp whatever Trump proposes. In which case, the Republican party is already toast — there aren’t enough conservatives in it to make a difference.
I’d truly be interested in a table comparing the positions of Trump and Clinton and whether you think they’re conservative or not. I’m deeply skeptical that the two are “equally bad.”
Having read the article, I’m not sure what the last line means. Best I can tell, the hypocrisy is that anti-NeverTrumpers won’t listen either. It’s just not clear.
More generally, most of the advice precludes a lot of arguments: 1. Don’t make it about Hillary; 2. Don’t talk up Trump. Not a lot left, is there? Best I can tell, Rachel is suggesting that an anti-NeverTrumper really listen to the NeverTrumper and really try to understand their position and don’t make them feel attacked and see if you can find that little chink in the armor where they feel safe…
Kinda paints the NeverTrumper as a rather delicate flower, which is a jarring contrast to the rather steady vitriol emanating from the most prominent public NeverTrumpers. Even in this piece, Rachel can’t refrain from a final swipe.
But maybe this is a fair description of NeverTrumpers on aggregate, and the anti-NeverTrumpers must do as she suggests if we wish to persuade.
“I don’t recall arguments that they were less American, less conservative maybe.” (IOS site function still lacking)
I well remember it, along with such other lovelies as “losers, fascists, racists, sell outs, thugs, has beens, rednecks, white nationalists” , not all here but all from ostensible Republicans and conservatives.